Letters, We Get Mail, XLV
by A. Orange



Date: Fri, April 14, 2006 17:27
From: "Dave F."

Just read your website on Bill Wilson — sounds like you really have some issues.

Hi Dave,

Yes. I just have this thing, this funny reaction, where I think that it's a despicable crime to lie to sick people about what will heal them, and how well the cure works.

Maybe I'll eventually get over that silly hang-up and become a good A.A. member, but I don't think so.

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

== Orange

*                  Agent Orange               *
*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** Foisting ineffective quack medicine on sick people is not
** a wonderful noble act of self-sacrifice to help others;
** it is the reprehensible behavior of a damned fool.





Date: Fri, April 14, 2006 18:29
From: "J R"
Subject: Pray for you

You are a very sick puppy! I will keep you in my prayers.

Narcissistic. Obsessive Compulsive. My, oh, My. Get some help Dud!

JR

Hi JR,

Interesting. You are repeating the diagnosis of Bill Wilson as narcissistic and obsessive-compulsive, and... what? Trying to claim that I am like Bill Wilson?

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

== Orange

*                  Agent Orange               *
*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**  You did a heck of a job, Brownie.
**  You did a heck of a job, Bushie.
**  You did a heck of a job, Chertoff.
**  You did a heck of a job, A.A.





Date: Sat, April 15, 2006 00:49
From: "Eric B B"

AA is working great for me (20 years). Just keep drinking — don't waste your keystrokes. Try poetry

Hi Eric,

Obviously, you don't know what is working for you.

I would suggest that what is really working is your decision not to drink any more alcohol. Everything else is irrelevant. Cult religion, 12 Steps, lots of meetings — irrelevant.

The proof is that groups of alcoholics who get sent to A.A. do not quit drinking in any greater numbers than the alcoholics who don't go to A.A..

In fact, one leader of A.A. found that involvement in A.A. just increased the death rate in alcoholics. It didn't help them at all. George E. Vaillant, the A.A. Trustee, spent nearly 20 years shoving A.A. on alcoholics and trying to prove that A.A. worked. In the end, he was forced to conclude that A.A. treatment was completely ineffective, and just raised the death rate in alcoholics. Look here.

And other doctors have also found that A.A. is a disaster:

  1. Dr. Brandsma found that A.A. increased the rate of binge drinking in alcoholics, and
  2. Dr. Ditman found that A.A. increased the rate of rearrests for public drunkenness, and
  3. Dr. Walsh found that "free A.A." made later hospitalization more expensive, and
  4. Doctors Orford and Edwards found that having a doctor talk to the patient for just one hour, telling him to quit drinking, was just as effective as a whole year of A.A.-based treatment.

So A.A. simply does not work.

Congratulations on your 20 years of using your will power to stick to your decision to not drink any more.

And have a good day.

== Orange

*                  Agent Orange               *
*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** Being surrounded by a group of people who keep
** telling you that you are powerless over alcohol,
** and that your will power is useless, is not
** getting "support". It is getting sabotaged.
** With friends like them, you don't need any enemies.





Date: Sat, April 15, 2006 20:30
From: "richard"

goddamn! been in a.a. for 18 years. could never stay sober more than five years.... i realized one day: a.a. makes my drinking worse!!! the guilt, shame,.... to hell with them... im now sober w/out a.a..... some of the members, when alone, are some of my best friends, yet i can never attend one more of those foul meetings.

thanks for this....

Hi Richard,

Thanks for the thanks, and thanks for the story. Glad to hear that you are feeling better now.

And have a good day.

== Orange

*                  Agent Orange               *
*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** "A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon
** devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive
** of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider
** god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do
** less easily move against him, believing that he has
** the gods on his side." — Aristotle





Date: Sun, April 16, 2006 5:00
From: "PJC"

Wow! Don't you have anything better to do, you poor bastard?

Now that remark cuts both ways, doesn't it?

Have a good day anyway.

== Orange

*                  Agent Orange               *
*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** Foisting ineffective quack medicine on sick people is not
** a wonderful noble act of self-sacrifice to help others;
** it is the reprehensible behavior of a damned fool.





Date: Sun, April 16, 2006 8:41
From: "cheri n."
Subject: AA/NA

Hi

I am a greatful member of NA, and as a result I am 6 1/2 years clean. I have lived each of the 12 steps, and have found them as an important tool to recovery. I believe I'd be dead with out them. Dead with a needle in my arm, or dead spiritually. The 12 steps are a guide/bridge to a the God of my understanding...*for me* it's Jesus Christ!

Do the steps!!

Cheri

Hi Cheri,

You are confusing several different things. First off, congratulations on your clean and sober time. You are clean and sober because you decided to change your lifestyle and quit drink and drugs and live a happier, healthier life.

There is no evidence that the 12 Steps do anything except brainwash people into being true believer cult members. That's what Frank Buchman designed those practicescult practices, not "spiritual principles" — to do, and that's what they do very well.

You would be dead if you had not quit drink and drugs. The 12 Steps have nothing to do with it. How alive would you be if you faithfully practiced the Steps, listing and confessing all of your sins and "moral shortcomings" every week, while continuing to over-indulge in drink and dope?

By the way, one of the leaders of Alcoholics Anonymous found that involvement in A.A. increased the death rate in alcoholics.

The 12 Steps have nothing to do with Jesus Christ. In fact, the Catholic Church banned Frank Buchman's Oxford Group, from which Bill Wilson got those cult practices, twice, because they were so unChristian.

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

== Orange

*                  Agent Orange               *
*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** Rev. Jim Jones said, "Drink the red koolaid. It
** has cured millions. RARELY HAVE we seen it fail...
** But then again, the green koolaid is good too.
** Take what you want, and leave the rest."


[2nd letter from Cheri:]

Date: Sat, May 20, 2006 20:09
Subject: Re: AA/NA

Funny!





Date: Mon, April 17, 2006 3:37
From: "regina k."
Subject: what else?

thanks so much for your website.

i have 19 years sober, and live in nyc. there is only (1) meeting i can think of where i'm not irritated by the egotistical, narcissistic, selfish and self-centered personalities of my fellow aa members.

the less people refuse to look at themselves, (steps or not) or be true to themselves, the harder they are on themselves and anyone else they can get their hands on... especially sponsees.

i have seen so many people screw their lives up pretending to live up to some ideal of "principles" or an ideal of themselves that is so far removed from reality that a child can see through the lies they tell themselves. the big fish in a little pond theory is true; i have always felt that. it's disheartening and very sad... and unfortunately, par for the course for human nature in a group setting.

i'm very happy that your website is growing, for people like myself, who simply are disgusted every now and again, and for people who have traumatic experiences in aa and feel lost, or know that aa is not for them. please keep up the good work.

i sent a small donation under another name to your paypal account.

love! "reggie"

Hi Regina,

Thanks for the letter, and all of the compliments, and everything.

I trust that you are feeling better now. Oh, and congratulations on your sobriety.

And have a good day.

== Orange

*                  Agent Orange               *
*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**  An A.A. true believer (Craig S.) babbled:
**  > How many times to I have to explain it to you. Alcohol
**  > is but a symptom, our bottles are but a symbol.
**  No, alcohol is a poisonous clear hydrocarbon solvent
**  that produces intoxication if swallowed in quantity.
**  Drinking alcohol is the cause of alcoholism.
**  There is no other "primary cause" of alcoholism.


2nd letter from Regina:]

Sat, May 20, 2006 14:48

hi doll.
thx for reply-hope all is well with you.
i got a reply from women for sobriety in the mail.
they're starting a meeting in nyc.
sounds a smidge touchy-feely, but i will check it out.
;)
yours,
reg





Date: Tue, April 18, 2006 23:50
From: "Hector J."
Subject: Thank you.

Thank you, very much for your usefully page.

Hi Hector,

Thanks for the thanks.

And have a good day.

== Orange

*                  Agent Orange               *
*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**  Pay your taxes so the rich don't have to.





Date: Wed, April 19, 2006 12:35
From: "Erin L."
Subject: You are right!

I was a member of AA and everything you say is 100% correct. The facts about Bill Wilson cheating on his wife and screwing around with young newcomer women is new but it makes sense judgeing by the guru of the group I was in called the Q group (Midtown in DC). Do you know of any recovery groups from the cult of AA?

I look forward from hearing from you.

Erin L.

Hi Erin,

Thanks for the letter.

Yes, there are a bunch of "recovery from the 12 Steps" groups and boards.

Enjoy, and have a good day.

== Orange

*                  Agent Orange               *
*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**  And the believers spake unto me, and saeth,
** "If you want what we have, and are willing to go to
** any length to get it, then, here, drink this koolaid."





Date: Thu, April 20, 2006 0:21
From: "john m."
Subject: Letter

I remember, about 10 years ago, when Rush Limbaugh criticized the disease concept of alcoholism and drug addiction. The 12 step 'lobby' was so powerful at that time, that he quit talking about his objections to the disease concept of addiction. By the way, I am a liberal democrat, and I agreed with el-Rushbo on this one. He has never mentioned it since, not one time. The 12 step lobby is like a secret empire.

Remember when Clinton-Gore were running for president and vice president the first time? Well, if you look back in certain publications, the Gore people were using many of the cliche's we hear in AA and other 12 step programs.

One of the rumors about George II (otherwise known as George W. Bush) in after the meeting meetings, was that he was 'one of us'. This helped him get elected president. Bush's connection to AA was never proved, but, you know recovery people, innuendo and rumor can be twisted into fact. It was interesting to me, how AA people especially, who as far back as I can remember in my 'recovery career' were very liberal in their politics after getting sober, but suddenly, when 'we had one of our own' with so much power, well, most of them got on the conservative band wagon, and it was enough to impact the election.

G. Gordon Liddy did not back off on his stance. He criticized the disease concept of addiction, and there are very few, even the most conservative radio stations, that broadcast his show.

Influence of the 12 step cult is deeper than most people think. In fact, it is so embedded, that most people do not even think about it.

John M

Hi John,

Thanks for the comments. That is some very revealing stuff.

Have a good day.

== Orange

*                  Agent Orange               *
*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** When you can't tell the difference between patriotically
** defending America at home, and killing thousands of
** children in a foreign country with "Shock and Awe"
** bombing, you are officially crazy.





Date: Thu, April 20, 2006 5:26
From: Ron
Subject: Former AA memeber

Thanks for the orange papers. I recently left AA after about 10 years. I took up mediation, Zen, Yoga, Buddhist type, about 5 years ago. During that time I began to doubt much of what I had been hearing in AA. I've just begun reading your papers — thank you. They are a big help in my own deprogramming.

Are you still active with this project?

Thanks,
Ron

Hi Ron,

Thanks for the thanks, and thanks for the compliments. Congratulations on your newfound freedom.

I am very much still active with this project, although the lure of the sun and water and outdoors is great now that it's spring and its beautiful outside. It's just a joy to take my guitar and some bread down to the river and feed the cute little gozzlings and ducklings that are hatching out.

It's hard to stay in front of a computer on sunny summer days. Who wants to be inside on days like that? I'm pretty slow at answering some email, but I get to it eventually, if only on the rainy days.

Have a good day.

== Orange

*                  Agent Orange               *
*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
* If you wonder whether evil karma can be neutralized or not,
* then know that it is neutralized by desire for goodness.
* But they who knowingly do evil deeds, exchange a mouthful
* of food for infamy. They who knowing not wither they
* themselves are bound, yet presume to pose as guides for
* others, do injury both to themselves and others. If pain
* and sorrow ye desire sincerely to avoid, avoid, then, doing
* harm to others.
*    — W.Y. Evans-Wentz, Tibet's Great Yogi Milarepa





Date: Thu, April 20, 2006 5:59
From: "Andrew WS"
Subject: Fwd: [LA-F] cato today

Hi AO

Thought you would like this..

Andrew

Help at Any Cost: How the Troubled-Teen Industry Cons Parents and Hurts Kids
(Riverhead Books, 2006)
BOOK FORUM
Thursday, April 20, 2006
12:00 PM (Luncheon to Follow)
Featuring the author Maia Szalavitz, Senior Fellow, _Stats.org_ (http://www.stats.org/) ; and with comments by Evan Wright Contributing Editor, Rolling Stone Author, Generation Kill: Devil Dogs, Iceman, Captain America, and the New Face of American War.
The Cato Institute
1000 Massachusetts Avenue, NW
Washington, DC 20001

_Watch the Event Live in RealVideo_ (http://www.cato.org/realaudio/cato_live.ram)
_Listen to the Event in RealAudio (Audio Only)_ (http://www.cato.org/realaudio/cato_audio.ram)

As the War on Drugs continues to fill America's prisons with nonviolent offenders, many cities and states are looking at mandatory treatment as an alternative to incarceration. Although treatment is generally preferable to prison, not all methods of treating drug addiction are the same. Some methods, particularly the "tough love" programs aimed at teens and adolescents, have documented records of mental abuse, physical abuse, and even death.

In her new book, Help at Any Cost, Maia Szalavitz takes a critical look at the history, controversy, and effectiveness of "tough love" rehabilitation programs. Blending personal stories and anecdotes with the detached narrative of a reporter, Szalavitz paints a troubling picture of the increasingly popular "get tough" approach to drug abuse.


[2nd letter from Andrew:]

Date: Thu, April 20, 2006 12:24
From: "Andrew WS"
Subject: Fwd: [LA-F] cato today

Hi

I did a chair at a AA meeting in London for a friend who is as heretical in AA terms as I am. He has been passing round the link to your site among his group's members and recommending that they make use of it. It appears that they do!

Keep up the good work!

Andrew

Hi again Andrew,

Thanks for the heads-up, and have a good day. I hope Maia's book does well.

== Orange

*                  Agent Orange               *
*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption
** abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every man
** wants to write a book, and it is evident that the end of
** the world is fast approaching.
** == Assyrian tablet, c. 2800 BC





Date: Thu, April 20, 2006 6:20
From: "robert e. w."
Subject: Alias?

I've looked briefly at your site and read your "tiebout/fascist" article. Admittedly I haven't looked at everything you offer but I'm curious as to why you use an alias instead of your real name. Maybe somewhere in all those files your true identity appears but I haven't seen it. It's easy to make the kind of statements and claims you make when no one knows who you are.

Thanks for your time,
Robert E. W.
Akron, OH

-- The difference between the right word and the almost right word is the difference between lightning and the lightning bug.
Mark Twain

Hello Robert,

Thanks for the letter. The anonymity started because I am in the heart of the "recovery industry" that I criticize. It has continued as a matter of habit or tradition.

It is not true that, "It's easy to make the kind of statements and claims you make when no one knows who you are."
Just the opposite. I have zero credibility to start with, by using a pen name, and have to earn all of my credibility the hard way, by careful research and accurate reporting of the facts, for many years.

Somebody with Dr. or PhD. or some other title tacked onto his name gets some instant credibility, but I don't.

I shall dispense with the anonymity someday, when it suits me. And you know what? It won't get me any more credibility to use my real name, either.

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

== Orange

*                  Agent Orange               *
*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** Isn't it fantastic, how we got to be part of the small
** group of hairless monkees who partied hearty and in a
** mere 100 years, gleefully burned up the world's entire
** supply of oil for the next 60 million years?





Date: Thu, April 20, 2006 21:21
From: "paul b."
Subject: Re:smokers

Here is My Favorite quote from Bill W..
Please note there is a lot of meat here.
I just refer to the part about smoking.
I see many people die in AA cuz smoking isn't part of the program.
Its like a licence to kill myself legally.
"If I am sober my problems are all solved" (type of thinking).

I can't be sure of the source, but it comes from this web site http://www.a-1associates.com/AA/wilsons_talk_to_the_clergy.htm

The following is an interesting talk by Bill to the National Clergy Conference On Alcoholism.

*FATHER W.: *Bill, could you explain what you mean by "mental obsession?" What is this?

*Bill W.*: Well, as I understand it, we are all born with a freedom of choice. The degree of this varies from person to person, and from area to area in our lives. In the case of neurotic people, our instincts take on certain patterns and directions, sometimes so compulsive they cannot be broken by any ordinary effort of the will.

The alcoholic's compulsion to drink is like that. As a smoker, for example, I have a deeply ingrained habit — I'm almost an addict. But I do not think this habit is an actual obsession. Doubtless it could be broken by an act of my own will. If badly enough hurt, I could in all probability give up tobacco. Should smoking repeatedly land me in Bellevue Hospital, I doubt if I would make the trip many times before quitting.

But with my alcoholism well that was something else again. No amount of desire to stop, no amount of punishment, could enable me to quit. What was once a habit of drinking became an obsession of drinking — a genuine lunacy."

Well Bill.. smoking is an obsession that most of us can't break.

Nicotine is like beer compared to pure ethanol. The SCALE of effects is less for 1 than the other/per person

The time is the factor.. the longer you consume/volume the greater the chance of problem.

the effect is that one smoke will want more smokes. endless. infinitum

years will pass by and the smoker won't even know he/she is on the drug

Until the fatal day when he / she is faced with the prospect of stopping altogether and then it becomes apparent. Quit or Chemo therapy. Or just choke to death like it was with me. or like some of my AA members .. just get your throat cut out. and get a wind pipe inserted

in the end I had to quit cuz i could not breath.. it was awful.. every day fighting for air.

makes booze seem like a joke.

But AA was the only game around ... And I don't hide my addiction.

Cuz pot was mild but magic mushrooms really screwed me up.. and that was 30 years ago?? how do I relate my experience.

So if you can get 5 years off ciggs.. Congrats (cuz that is what it takes me.. at least 5 years.. and at 6 years I'm back at it again.. but at 4.5 years i feel very safe.

In the end its all about human beings.. and how to help.

Thanks Agent orange for your nice web site.

Got me thinking bout the difference between .. 'chance' 'rate' and other statistical things..

Hi Paul,

Thanks for the letter. I couldn't agree more. And thanks for the compliments.

Bill Wilson really downplayed the seriousness of the problems with tobacco, and did the minimization and denial tap-dance there when it came to admitting that he was really addicted to cigarettes. It was both sad and funny to see.

Bill actually smoked himself to death, and died of pneumonia and emphysema, after all of those years of insisting that smoking was okay, and wasn't really an addiction like alcohol.

Bill also did a complete reversal of reality there: He declared that alcoholism was an addiction over which he was completely powerless, and he just couldn't quit drinking. But Bill did successfully quit drinking in 1934, and he apparently stayed sober until his death in 1971.

And Bill declared that tobacco addiction was a much milder addiction, one that he could quit by will power if he wanted to. But Bill didn't ever quit it — he smoked tobacco until it killed him. Even when the doctor was telling him that it was killing him and he had to quit — even when Bill pretended to have quit smoking — even when Bill was on an oxygen tank — Bill never quit smoking.

So Bill successfully quit the one over which he was powerless, and he could never quit the one that he could quit any time he wanted to, even though it was killing him... Strange, how Bill's mind twisted and reversed things, yes?

I just have to mention the death tolls:
100,000 USA citizens die from alcohol each year, plus about another 13,000 from drunk driving accidents.
430,000 USA citizens die from tobacco each year.

So which is the deadlier drug?

Oh well, have a good day.

Oh, by the way, tobacco and alcohol are actually such similar addictions that what I learned about addiction from quitting smoking and relapsing, over and over and over again for 30 years, actually helped me in quitting alcohol and avoiding relapse. It doesn't matter whether the craving is for a beer or a cigarette, I get the same little voice in my head, the same little addiction monster, whispering, "Oh it's okay now. We have it under control. It's been so long since we've had one that we have a handle on it, and can relax with one now... It'll be okay."

But finally, I know too much, and I ain't gonna get fooled again.

Have a good life, and please don't relapse at the 6-year point.

== Orange

*                  Agent Orange               *
*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*
**    Smoke, smoke, smoke that cigarette.
**    Puff, puff, puff yourself to death.
**    Tell St. Peter at the Gate
**    That I hate to make him wait
**    But I gotta have another cigarette.





Date: Fri, April 21, 2006 16:31
From: "Glen A P."
Subject: Ouch! And thank you.

First off, I am a member of AA and have been since 1986. In 1991, after clearly not experiencing any of "The Promises" found on page 83 of the basic text of AA or the Big Book, I began drinking again for nearly 6 years. After seeking professional help for my alcoholism, I returned to the rooms and was faced with insolence, egotism, judgment, and overall dismissive attitude by anyone who had managed to string more time together than myself.

At every meeting I was hit with statements such as, "Well Glen, your best thinking got you here." and "Take the cotton out of your ears and stick it in your mouth."

Rarely was I treated with the patience, love, kindness and tolerance that the basic text urges we use as our guiding principles. I was intentionally meant to feel as if I had somehow failed in the program due to my unwillingness to do the work. And when I pointed out that most of the "old timers" who were doling out advice to me, had not availed themselves of any of AA's literature, I was attacked as being judgmental and of having resentments.

(Turns out that for my first 5 years of sobriety, I was also dealing with an unrecognized and untreated mental condition; Bi-polar Access II and a General Anxiety Disorder) Wasn't experiencing the promises eh? Go figure...

I struggled through my first 2 years back in the rooms, then after facing a personal crises and getting nothing other than the same old tired advice, "You just have to accept your situation", I fired my sponsor, picked up a good dictionary, read all I could find on, or about AA (both conference approved and not) and dedicated myself to working the same program that I had then believed the first 100 members had worked. Next month will be 8 years, and this time I have come to know the reality of how great my life could be.

That being said, I will admit to having been taken aback when a newcomer brought up your site in a discussion we were having after a beginner's meeting. It was his opinion, backed by his honest experience and diligent research, which led him to see AA as not only a religious cult, but also in no small way, a sham. I am ashamed to admit that my first thoughts were very similar to what must have motivated those "old timers" I ran up against in those first 2 years. I almost immediately judged him to be "unwilling to accept the spiritual tools laid at his feet", to be a stubborn and ego driven individualist, and of course a detrimental influence to those poor sick drunks who had come to hear the message of AA.

God, I really can be a pompous ass!

Fortunately for me, those thoughts were quickly supplanted by something the program did teach me, "There is a principle which is a bar against all knowledge; which is proof to any argument, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. That Principle is contempt, prior to investigation." I am sure you know that it's in the back of the book, at the close of Appendix II on The Spiritual Experience.

Or, less pedantically, "What the fuck do I know anyway?"

I have spent the last few hours enthralled by both your well informed and judiciously studied opinions. Although, at first I was looking for mean spirited rationalization and some sense of resentment, I instead found your comments well balanced, thoughtful and most importantly when dealing with such a life and death matter, factual.

I can find no error in either the scope of your thesis, or in its execution. I surmise that you deliberately choose to present such a large amount of data in order to staunch any emotional diatribe cast by our many overly zealous and ill informed members.

Like we say in the rooms, "The truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off!"

I will recommend your site to the few members I know that have actually continued to keep an open mind, rather than the many who opened theirs just long enough to have is close around inane sayings and ritualistic sentiment.

I will still hold out hope for the newcomer, I think I will still maintain my membership, but I will redouble my sincere effort to be forthcoming and factual in my statement that, AA is not the only, or the best way to recovery, but something that by my experience, for whatever reason, works for me.

Tragically, your site and your observations should be something that we, the society of Alcoholic's Anonymous embrace and accept. When I followed the suggestions of those first 100 members, and ignored the bull shit being mistaken for the program at the meetings, I truly found a much better way to live. Even if, as one of my very first sponsors (who had known Bill W. back in the early NY days) told me years ago, that "Bill Wilson was an intolerable asshole and the most ego driven and selfish bastard I have ever know, except of course for me."

Anyway, thanks for the effort and for the courage to publish.

May God bless you and keep you,

Glen A. P.

Hi Glen,

Wow. Thanks for the letter and a great story. And thanks for such strong praise and complements. I feel a bit overwhelmed.

I'm glad to hear that you are feeling better. And it looks like you are another member in good standing of the Newcomer Rescue League.

(That organization is a joke — a mythical secret society of clear-headed people who go to A.A. meetings to save the newcomers from the bad sponsors. It is a joke, but shouldn't be, and may not be non-existent in the long run. I've gotten several letters from people who, like you, are really doing it.)

Well, have a good life, and a good day.

== Orange

*                  Agent Orange               *
*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** "Neither fire nor wind, birth nor death can
** erase our good deeds." — Siddhartha Buddha





Date: Sat, April 22, 2006 23:48
From: "michael g."
Subject: Wernicke Encephalopathy

Hi Orange

I wasn't aware of how sick you have been after having read this article. I imagine, you are fortunate to be alive [I'm glad you are] and I pray you make a speedy recovery which I'm sure you will [you are a good man]. I feel some sadness.... I recall a school mate of mine who had Korsakoffs Syndrome and I and another school friend went to visit him in hospital. His short term memory was completely gone. he could recall things from 20 to 30 years ago but couldn't recall what he did 5 Min's ago. [He died of a heart attack a few years ago. Life is strange because this particular school friend was someone we all thought would be "successful".]

Another school friend was found dead outside a men's shelter [he also suffered from Korsakoff's Syndrome] he used to drink methylated spirits. I used to go and visit him and leave feeling grateful to God that it wasn't me. I have been blessed and really feel that sobriety/ recovery, is a gift.

"Hang in" there, you are a good men and as I've mentioned in my earlier postings, you have been an inspiration to me and I imagine, to many others.

Peace Be With You
Micky

Hi Micky,

Thanks for all of the compliments.

Fortunately I am okay. I am in a funny "stuck in the middle" situation:

  • If you ask a doctor now, he will say that I don't have Wernicke's Encephalopathy. (I did ask.)
  • But at the same time, the memory loss problems that I had 5 years ago were definitely caused by it, and some of those problems are still lingering a bit.
  • So I am really one of the very lucky escapees. That is a bit unusual because the onset of Wernicke's Encephalopathy is very sudden, and it's pretty much incurable. You can be okay for many years of drinking and then all of a sudden you cross over the line and the brain cells just can't survive any more thiamine deprivation and they die by the millions in just a few months.

    It's like I had my toes over the edge of the cliff. If I had gone forwards any more (persisted in drinking any more), just one more step, then I would have lost it all. But I pulled back just in time.

It's still a real bother having memory problems, but I'm okay. It's sort of like I have "Senior Moments" where I just can't remember something. (Story here.)

On the bright side, my memory is still slowly improving, even after 5 years. Rather than descending into senility as time passes and I age, my mind is still getting clearer. My brain gradually grows a few more new cells and makes a few more new connections, and then suddenly something else starts working. So I can't complain about that.

Have a good day.

== Orange

*                  Agent Orange               *
*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** It's one of the great mysteries of our age:
** Bush and Cheney claim to have the situation
** under control — Bush says that he is "the decider" —
** and yet, they claim to have no knowledge of, and
** no responsibility for, all of the disasters that
** have occurred during their reign.





Date: Sun, April 23, 2006 20:13
From: "Gordon G."
Subject: Have you seen this?

Hi,

I came across this while looking for <Honey Bowler> trailers for Pete's sake. Anyway, though you could see something that should be true also for 12-Step Recovery. Anyway, 12-Steps is not the only religious cult in the fray.

"# Legality. The United States is the most prominent of a number of countries which have strict legal restrictions on what activities may be undertaken by religious organizations or funded by public bodies."

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Narconon/nn-scn.htm

Gordie

Hi Gordie,

No, I hadn't seen that. Thanks for the link.

And have a good day.

Orange

*                  Agent Orange               *
*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** The only way to achieve maximum openness is to arrive at
** every moment without a single preconception. Otherwise,
** we resist what doesn't fit our model.
** == Raphael Cushnir, from 365 Nirvana, Here and Now by Josh Baran


[2nd letter from Gordie:]

Date: Sun, April 23, 2006 20:15
From: "Gordon G."
Subject: Here is another one

"Narconon routinely claims that it is wholly non-religious — as it has to, if it is not to fall foul of the U.S. Constitution's prohibition of state support for religious activities. However, a close examination of Narconon's doctrines and written materials proves otherwise."

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Narconon/doctrines.htm

Gordie

Hi Gordie,

Thanks for the link. That's good.

[Note to readers: Narconon is Scientology's organization that claims to cure drug and alcohol problems, by converting people into Scientologists.]

Have a good day.

== Orange

*                  Agent Orange               *
*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** And the cult said, "If you want what we have,
** and are willing to go to any length to get it,
** then, here, drink this koolaid."





Date: Sun, April 23, 2006 22:22
From: "Wendy-Ann A."
Subject: Powerless Over Alcohol

THANK YOU! YES! YOU SAID IT! Everything I've known in my heart and tried to convey to my brother! I said, STOP saying you've been sober for so many days... I have too and I don't announce it to the world, I just know it's right not to be waste or drink before I work or drive, etc. Stop acting like you have NO control. You have, as you are choosing not to drink... CHOOSING... yes... it's a choice!

I could go on and on, but I must say your points are valid and can't be argued... they just can't!

Sincerely,
Wendy-Ann A.

Hi Wendy,

Thanks for the letter, and for the compliments.

I would split the difference there — keep on telling your brother that it really is a choice, that he has the choice and the control over his drinking, but let him brag about how long he's been sober. It sometimes really does help. Let him take a little pride in that. It does give a feeling of accomplishment. In fact, a lot of sober time really is an accomplishment for a habitual drunkard.

Have a good day.

== Orange

*                  Agent Orange               *
*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** The more severe the pain or illness, the more severe
** will be the necessary changes. These may involve
** breaking bad habits, or acquiring some new and better
** ones.  ==  Peter McWilliams, Life 101





Date: Mon, April 24, 2006 9:48
From: "Bionic Pig"
Subject: Love your website

Hi there,

Just wanted to let you know that I love your website. I've been an addiction counselor for over 20 years and have always been uncomfortable with the forced march of mandatory AA attendance. I've always sensed that recovery is and should be about choice.

Hi Bionic,

Thanks for the letters, and all of the compliments.

I was curious about one thing tho... I knew that Bill W. suffered from depression and tried acid to deal with his depression... This isn't such a issue for me... however, I also came across a bit of info which suggested that Bill W. actually received a DUI before his death. Do you know anything about that, or can you point me to a source that talks about that??

That is news to me. I'd love to know the details if it's true. I have heard a few rumors, like one old-timer telling me that one of the A.A. founders was relapsing all of the time, but I don't have anything substantial. If Bill Wilson was drinking after 1934, it's the best-kept secret in A.A.. (Personally, I don't regard using LSD to be a relapse on alcohol, so I wasn't thinking of that. It might be a relapse on drugs, but certainly not on alcohol.)

Thanks for all of the work that you do..

Todd

Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend; inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. — Groucho Marx


Date: Mon, April 24, 2006 10:17
From: "Bionic Pig"

There was a book published by New Look Publishing entitled "A New Pair of Glasses.." I think that would be an appropriate name for this phenomenon...

Once somebody buys into one of those models of reality, a perceptual filter kicks in where they notice more and more "facts" that appear to reinforce their chosen beliefs, and they ignore any conflicting information that comes along, so they become more and more convinced of the correctness of their beliefs — "It's all so obvious to anyone who learns the real truth!"

So what is a good name of that phenomenon?


Date: Mon, April 24, 2006 10:25
From: "Bionic Pig"
Subject: "Alcoholics and God" by Morris Markey

http://www.barefootsworld.net/aalibertymag1939.html

Thanks for the link. That's a nice bite of history.

And have a good day.

*                  Agent Orange               *
*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**
** "Iraq Is All but Won; Now What?"
** (Los Angeles Times headline, 4/10/2003)
**
** "Now that the combat phase of the war in Iraq is
** officially over, what begins is a debate throughout
** the entire U.S. government over America's unrivaled
** power and how best to use it."
** (CBS reporter Joie Chen, 5/4/2003)
**
**  ...Yeh, right.





Date: Mon, April 24, 2006 11:58
From: "Hank"

Al turned me on to orange p's so tonite i used some wine to symbolically "melt" my 7 year chip/pride thanks to this site.... thanks, and having been in aa since the mid 80's we can help you clear-up some misconceptions if u want.

hank

Hello Hank,

Thanks for the letter. Congratulations on your new freedom. I'm always open to clearing up any misconceptions, so please send the information.

== Orange

*               Agent Orange              *
*          orange@orange-papers.org       *
*      AA and Recovery Cult Debunking     *
*      http://www.orange-papers.org/      *
** "Now I know what it's like to be high on life.
** It isn't as good, but my driving has improved."
** == Nina, on "Just Shoot Me", 13 Jan 2006.





Date: Mon, April 24, 2006 12:24
From: "Ankush"
Subject: Re: Link Partnering Request

Hello my name is Ankush. I am seeking out possible link partners that our visitors would be interesting in visiting. I've found your website to be a very good fit for our visitors. I would love to put your link onto my website at:
http://quit-smoking.axn24.net (Dead Link, Domain Name Lost.)

I am contacting you to see if it is ok to do so. Also, I would like to ask if you mind linking back to us?
If so, please use the linking details below and send me the location of our link on your website.

Here is our linking details:
Title: Quit Smoking
Description: A Complete Guide On How To Quit Smoking In 7 Days!
URL: http://quit-smoking.axn24.net

I was browsing your WebSite and I thought www.orange-papers.org might be a very good place to link to us = )

We've got several PR6 and 7 websites, so we expect this site to become at least a PR5 within 1 month and will eventually become a 6 or 7 in 2-3 months.
I hope this can be a way for us to benefit our visitors with excellent content. Hope to hear from you soon.

Cheers,
Ankush SB

Hi Ankush,

Thanks for the letter. I like what you are doing. I haven't read all of it yet, but I like what I'm seeing.

Yes, I can give you a link or two.

Over here, the two things that I would point people to are:

1. Just my random thoughts about tobacco:
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-tobacco.html

2. That little voice in the back of your head, who also sometimes seems like a little guy sitting on your shoulder and whispering into your ear that just smoking one now will be okay... I backslid and started smoking again more times than I can count, at times that ranged from a week to a year after quitting, because I got fooled by old lizard brain's yammering about wanting to feel good by having a cigarette now. Learning how he works, and learning how to not get fooled again, was essential for my victory over tobacco. (I now have 5 years off of tobacco, and I don't believe a word that the little addiction monster says.)
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-addmonst.html

Have a good day.

*               Agent Orange              *
*          orange@orange-papers.org       *
*      AA and Recovery Cult Debunking     *
*      http://www.orange-papers.org/      *
** "Now I know what it's like to be high on life.
** It isn't as good, but my driving has improved."
** == Nina, on "Just Shoot Me", 13 Jan 2006.

Later update, 13 Sept 2006:
Well, that's the end of that. The domain name is now owned by sedoparking.com





Date: Mon, April 24, 2006 13:22
From: hwrdwl

Dear Orange!

I wish to ask:

95% of AA attendees leave within one year.
That presumes failure.
Perhaps NOT.

How many leave AA within one year because it has served their purpose?
That is, AA was, for them, a "success"?

It seems that query has been given short shrift by many.

I would appreciate your view on this query.

Regards
H

Hello H,

Thanks for the question. Alas, you are trying to assume some facts not in evidence, and trying to ignore facts that are in evidence.

You assume that exposure to A.A. has some kind of beneficial effect, and that various people "get it" at varying times, so all that some people need for their "treatment" is a few A.A. meetings.

Nothing could be further from the truth. All of the valid tests of A.A. show that A.A. has no beneficial effect, and that it actually often has a very bad effect:

  1. Dr. Brandsma found that A.A. greatly increased the rate of binge drinking in alcoholics. After several months, alcoholics who got sentenced to A.A. were doing 5 times as much binge drinking as the alcoholics who got sentenced to no treatment, and 9 times as much binge drinking as another group that got sentenced to Rational Behavior Therapy.
  2. Dr. Ditman found that A.A. increased the rate of rearrests for public drunkenness.
  3. Dr. Walsh found that "free A.A." made later hospitalization more expensive.
  4. Doctors Orford and Edwards found that having a doctor talk to the patient for just one hour, telling him to quit drinking, was just as effective as a whole year of A.A.-based treatment.
  5. Dr. Prof. George E. Vaillant, the A.A. Trustee, found that involvement in A.A. just increased the death rate in alcoholics. It didn't help them at all.

So there are no grounds for assuming that the A.A. drop-outs had absorbed some benefit quickly, and that they walked out of the A.A. meeting rooms as success stories. All of the evidence says that they were more likely to be walking out damaged, infected with the crazy ideas that they were powerless over alcohol, and could not save their own lives by using their own intelligence and will power.

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

== Orange

*                  Agent Orange               *
*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** Being surrounded by a group of people who keep
** telling you that you are powerless over alcohol,
** and that your will power is useless, is not
** getting "support". It is getting sabotaged.
** With friends like them, you don't need any enemies.





Date: Mon, April 24, 2006 21:49
From: "Vicki p."
Subject: AA

WOW???.I SENSE A BIT OF A RESENTMENT ON YOUR PART??..I WILL DO AS THE BIG BOOK SUGGESTS??..AND PRAY FOR YOU? ?GOD BLESS!! VICKI

Hi Vicki,

You have no idea how many steppers have used that line about resentments. (Look here for a list.) The constant repetition makes steppers sound like brainwashed cult members who are just mindlessly chanting slogans.

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

== Orange

*                  Agent Orange               *
*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** "Only two things are infinite, the universe and
** human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
**     == Albert Einstein (1879-1955)





Date: Tue, April 25, 2006 11:16
From: "Lewis F."

You have helped me so much.
I had to wise up to the emotional abuse I was suffering livening with a Sponsor.
Towards the end I wanted to kill myself.

I'm trying my best to move forward, after all its MY life.

Thanks so much.

Paul

Hi Paul,

Thanks for the thanks. I hope you are feeling better now.

Have a good day, and a good life.

== Orange

*                  Agent Orange               *
*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** And the believers said, "If you want what we
** have, and are willing to go to any length to
** get it, then, here, drink this koolaid."





Date: Tue, April 25, 2006 14:40
From: "James G."
Subject: Help needed

orange,

I am not sure if you got my last email regarding my video. I am not that interested in that anymore. I have made a site and it is live but it is not recieving any hits and I have not pushed it yet. I wanted you to have a look at it and let me know what you think. There are not many people in the UK who are open to this sort of thing. Do you have any advice? I have already recieved some harsh 'feedback' from AA members regarding my videos but that is to be expected.

The link for the site is http://www.blamedenial.co.uk

I think I need to explain the name but it goes something like this — the most I have ever been in denial is when I believed I was powerless. Does that make sense?

If you are too busy, I understand but all the same I want to thank you for making the truth available to me thus allowing me to see things as they really are.

I hope you are well.

Kind regards,

j a m e s g

Hi James,

It's good to hear from you again. I got your previous letter. I'm just slow at answering emails, sometimes, and this is one of those times. The weather is getting to be beautiful out there and playing in the sun is a lot more fun than sitting in front of a computer, so I have been letting my email pile up until I really have to get rid of some of the backlog.

I like your video. I think it's worth continuing. I like your new site too.

It takes time to build up a readership or viewership. I've been at this for 5 years, and for the first 4, not much happened. I submitted my URL to the search engines more than 4 years ago. Many of them took 6 months to get around to indexing the site. And still, nothing happened for a long time. I don't know why the site started really taking off about 9 months ago. Page viewing has been increasing exponentially. Last August or September, I was getting about 8400 or 7600 unique visitors per month. And then, for some reason that I don't know, it suddenly jumped to 12000, then 15000, and kept growing. For the last couple of months it's been 23000 or 24000 per month.

And I didn't do anything different. I really do not know why the sudden attention.

Submit your video to all of the big search engines. I remember that Yahoo and Google had their own submission form. And then there was a generic shared form that would take care of many others with just one common form. I forget whose it was, but just do them all: Yahoo, Google, Inktomi, AskJeeves, MSN, Voyager, Lycos, Scooter, Altavista, Voila.

And, like I said, they are slow as molasses in January about getting around to indexing you the first time. Which is very strange, because now several of the big guys index my site daily. You would think that maybe they would expend a little more effort on the new sites and a little less on reindexing, but apparently they don't.

Oh well, hang in there, and have a good day.

== Orange

*                  Agent Orange               *
*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** "Problems worthy of attack prove their worth
** by fighting back." == Paul Erdos (1913-1996)





Date: Wed, April 26, 2006 14:49
From: "TomItsNever"
Subject: I was one of your critics, but now I am coming around

Dear Orange:

Your site has been a big part of my journey to get over addictive behavior for the last year or so.

Thanks for taking the time to provide a dissenting opinion from the majority view of AA's benevolence and effectiveness.

At first, I was neutral towards AA. Then I started going to meetings and I decided to give it an honest try. I didn't really consider at the time that giving it an honest try would mean to accept uncritically statements and ideas that are meant to break down one's faculty to think for oneself. I got a sponsor, started being told that my ego, "self-will run riot", and my selfishness and self-centeredness are the true causes of my erstwhile drug and alcohol use and that I needed to work a "program" to remain abstinent. The beginning of the program included daily calls to my sponsor, 90 meetings in 90 days, and taking on sundry tasks to help out at the meetings. Additionally, I needed to make a firm commitment to going to two specific meetings that my sponsor attends. All of these elements of the "program" were, I suppose, intended to allow AA to encircle me and take up a significant portion of my time.

Well, for the past five months, It has. Now I am having serious misgivings about the worldview AA has foisted upon me. Sure, there are certainly people who have problems with drugs and alcohol and who should probably not touch the stuff, but who is AA to prescribe its one-size-fits-all "treatment" on anyone who has ever had such problems? Certainly there are some folks who might benefit from approaches to alcohol that focus on moderation rather than total abstinence for the rest of their lives. I may not be one of them. Perhaps I fit into the former category of those who should never touch the stuff. But even given that, is it really necessary to get up in front of a group of people twice or more times a week and identify myself as an alcoholic for the rest of my life to live in a balanced and productive way?

I am, in addition to other things, a student trying to get into post-graduate professional schools. In the course of this pursuit, I have had to take an intensive admissions test, and now I am interviewing with schools who have received my application. On top of those pressures, I am studying for my current courses and I have a job. My sponsor views most of these things as distractions from my involvement in AA. I have had to miss several meetings to keep up with some of my academic obligations. Recently, I got the old "I haven't seen you in Monday meetings" grilling to which I said "That's true, and I will be missing one this upcoming Monday for a professional school interview." Well, I would think that a person who is concerned about my well-being would be glad to see me moving forward in my goals, but the sponsor essentially got fed up with me and hung up the phone. On other occasions he has told me that my desire to go to professional school is simply a sign of my arrogance and egoism and that it goes to show that I think "my case is different."

When I was truly in the grips of AA's mind-control machine, I sent you a few e-mails defending the 12 steps and the recovery movement. I accused you essentially of being a "dry-drunk" and not getting the "spirituality" of the program. Well, I am not proud of it, but I have to say, upon closer consideration and further experience with AA, that you were right all along. Now I have to extricate myself from the 12-step cult and disengage from my sponsor. He, in some ways, has been really nice to me, taking me to AA events, listening to my stories about my past, and buying me cups of coffee and meals and the such, so I actually feel guilty about saying "look, I have had time to think it over, and I don't think this AA stuff is for me, thanks anyway." But in the end, we are all responsible to make our own ways in the world, and I feel that if I don't get way from AA, I will become more beholden to it and my life will become more and more narrow.

Thanks for reading.

Thomas

Hi Thomas,

Thanks for the letter, and for all of the compliments.

That story really is the whole thing in a nutshell, isn't it?
I just can't even think of anything to add.

Have a good day, and a good life.

== Orange

*                  Agent Orange               *
*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** The A.A. Plan: "Search out another alcoholic and
** try again. You are sure to find someone desperate
** enough to accept with eagerness what you offer."
** (The Big Book, page 96.)





Date: Tue, April 25, 2006 17:17
From: "BLOOZMAN"
Subject: cults

orange,

i was just reading your review of the buchman book. there is a commonality among cult leaders, isn't there? read l ron hubbards autobiography then read the real biography. maybe being out of touch with reality is part of a personality that starts a cult.

Yes, it really seems like it. I often ask myself, what kind of a nut, what kind of a psychopath, could calmly hurt as many people as the notorious cult leaders have done? What kind of a demented mind does it take to hurt so many people and not care and not feel guilty about it?

Also see this cult test item: 41. Disturbed Guru, Mentally Ill Leader.

to hear him tell it hubbard walked on water and made jesus look like a piker. doesnt tom cruise know that hubbard died with psychotropic pharmaceuticals in his blood? they always use celebrities to sell their religion huh.

steven


Date: Tue, April 25, 2006 18:14
From: "BLOOZMAN"
Subject: thorburn

orange,

i was rereading our letter exchange. i didnt notice the post about the book or maybe u updated it.

You didn't miss anything. I added a post-script later, after I got my hands on Thorburn's book "How To Spot Hidden Alcoholics" and read it.

boy thats just sickening isnt it that racist statement about blacks.

Yes. I was actually so surprised that I had to go back and reread the preceding pages a couple of times just to make sure that I wasn't completely misunderstanding what he was saying. Like maybe he had really written, "I would be a racist and a raving lunatic if I wrote that the first sign of a hidden alcoholic is that he has black skin..."

Or maybe he might have written, "Here is a list of the common misconceptions about alcoholism..."

But there was no such qualifier. He actually meant what the pages were saying.

i didnt read the damn book and im not about to waste my time. although i respect your researching it. thats just crazy isnt it? isnt it weird all the drugs and alcohol we've done and our minds are much clearer than all these idiots judging us. what the hells going on? ok im ok with free enterprise but damn i dont like exploitation. youre very thorough in your research. thanx for reviewing that book by the way. i was reading your 10

1. Over-achiever, due to a need to win at any cost
2. Regularly uses foul language
3. Smokes cigarettes
4. Extraordinarily charming
5. Occupational choices that allow the wielding of power or ease of use
6. Engages in risky behavior in reckless fashion
7. Has a "the rules don't apply to me" attitude
8. Compulsive gambler
9. Pontificates
10. and so on....

thats just funny isnt it? or it would be if it wasnt so damaging and ignorant. extaordinarily charming?????? jeez i like to think im charming but... i guess by that definition thorburn isnt an alcoholic. pontificates???????? so was socrates an alcoholic? by the way thanx for making me feel like im contributing to the truth and helping in some small way. i consider you a friend i hope you do too.

best wishes, steven

Yes, you are contributing to the truth, Steven. I had not even heard about Thorburn until you brought him to my attention.

Thanks.


Date: Tue, April 25, 2006 18:39
From: "BLOOZMAN"
Subject: stuff

orange,

u know i figured something out. u know how in aa they say people are dangerous if they think? ok lets say i say a guy is coming over who believes the sky is green watch out for him. would u be scared that he would interfere with your belief that the sky is blue? its only crazy beliefs that are hard to maintain.

steven

You've got it. The cult has to protect its irrational and illogical dogma from scrutiny and intelligent questioning, because it just can't stand up under close examination. So they insist that people must stop thinking. Here's the standard cult characteristic: 7. Irrationality.


Date: Tue, April 25, 2006 19:12
From: "BLOOZMAN"

orange,

do u think god likes being referred to as the god thing?

steven

Funny that you should mention that. I just made up the new signature below a couple of days ago.

Have a good day.

== Orange

*                  Agent Orange               *
*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**
**    "My name isn't 'your Higher Power'."   **
**                  == GOD                   **





Date: Wed, April 26, 2006 5:06
From: "richie"
Subject: aa

Hi

Just a few words from Australia to say thanks for the web site

I have been 13 years in AA and am only now getting out.

More soon thanks again

Richie

Hi Richie,

Thanks for the letter, and contratulations on your new-found freedom.

And have a good day.

== Orange

*                  Agent Orange               *
*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** "A well conducted professional study" showed that
** "some 5% of newcomers are still attending meetings
** after 12 months. This is a truly terrible statistic.
** Again we must ask 'Where does the fault lie?'"
** == Dr. Ron Whitington - Chairman General Service Board,
** AA Around Australia, Spring Edition No 90, October 1994





Date: Wed, April 26, 2006 7:59
From: "Paul T."
Subject: Re: Any chance of more information?

Dear Orange,

Wrote u a couple of months ago about Wayne B's Movement, emotional recovery and yet again an example of a mad man finding out that the perfect treatment for insanity is to start a movement. Well I've got the link:

http://www.stepnahead.com/

I know it will be of interest to u as it is a recent example of megalomania in action. If I find any other links etc. u will b the 1st to here from me.

Oliver

Hi again, Oliver,

Thanks for the link. Yes, that stuff is always of interest. The circus just goes on and on...

Have a good day.

== Orange

*                  Agent Orange               *
*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**  I used to be a creature of the night.
**  Now I'm a creature of the light.





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Last updated 21 April 2015.
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