Letters, We Get Mail, CCCLII
by Orange

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters352.html#Eliza ]

Date: Tue, April 23, 2013 3:41 pm       (Answered 26 April 2013)
From: Eliza
Subject: New message from Eliza

Eliza sent you a message.

hi there. ok, so i am trying something thats been hard for me in the past 24 years. spent alot of that time going in and out of the na and aa programs. lately though i have cut everyone out because its been the only way i feel like i wont get tangled up in the na's and aa's drama and to be honest, harm. i do smoke green and i have only had one night of a few drinks and before i would never of thought i could go out and just be ok with it without believing i am destined and doomed to spend my life in jail, some other instituion or death. i havent been able to really hear more about the history of narcotics anonymous. a lot on aa and it makes sense to me. but i would like to know if na has a simular history like aa does. any na "bill w.'s?" its hard to just shift gears, though, going from that life to a different path. feel a bit alone but am meeting new folks that aren't cuaght up in the 12 st recovery bulllshit. anyhow, i appreciate the truth being brought to light about aa and bill w., so thanks again for the hope that things dont have to be like they use to be.

sorry i type fast here so i tend to go on to long. lol, ok, thanks

peace, eliza

Hello Eliza,

Thanks for the letter. I'm glad to hear that you are breaking free. Of course you are experiencing a kind of "culture shock" from your new freedom, but that discomfort will pass.

I don't think that the founders of N.A. were as spectacular as Bill Wilson. I haven't heard much about them, other than that they were some A.A. true believers who thought that they should adapt the A.A. program to use on drug addicts. Obviously, they were not the kind of narcissistic megalomaniac that Bill Wilson was. More like "me too" wanna-bees.

It is good that you are creating a new circle of friends outside of the 12-Step world. That is one of the hardest parts of exiting from a cult — the loneliness, the sudden loss of that encircling group of people. Suddenly you are out there on your own. But you will find new friends, and saner ones too.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*       http://www.orange-papers.org/forum/   *
**     "It is the friends you can call up at 4 A.M. that matter."
**       ==  Marlene Dietrich, b. 1901, German actress

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters352.html#Anonymous ]

Date: Fri, April 26, 2013 9:12 pm       (Answered 29 April 2013)
From: "Anonymous"
Subject: My life nearly obliterated thanks to the AA Cult

Hey Orange,

I had to break my silence and email you my story. Because if my story can save another life from the insane, depraved and disgusting cult that is Alcoholics Anonymous, a cult which nearly destroyed my life, my families life and the lives of countless others I witnessed the cult destroy firsthand, then I will sleep better at night.

I drank Alcohol and smoked Pot recreationally through two years of college at the University of Redlands. I was an honor student with a 4.0 GPA in nearly all my courses. I made the decision to leave at the end of my second year of college (despite my academic performance) for two reasons, one was that I was not making a decent living as a Journalist (Honors English Major) and two, the hard drug use was (and still is) rampant in San Bernandino. All my best friends in college (mainly in the hippie circle, all honor students) became hooked on Heroin, Cocaine and Meth. I was offered these drugs constantly and never once gave in to peer pressure despite constant and easy access to any drug I wanted (and it was fucking constant).

I saw the damage the hard drugs did to my friends and with a heavy heart, moved back in with my parents. I also made the immediate decision to cut back to $60.00 worth of Pot every 2 weeks. It was not enough. Despite working all day and night at school in addition to a full time job at Macy's and getting into a committed relationship my brothers wife was in AA. One night she smelled Pot on my clothes and told my parents and my girlfriend, despite the fact that I was not high that night and hadn't been for the last week I had forgot to wash my clothes that week and the results did not turn in my favor. My parents found a small stash of Pot I had in one of the cupboards and all hell broke loose. Little did I know I would come to understand the definition of hell through AA...

My parents took everything from me, they forced me to quit my job so I could "concentrate on schoolwork" which I was already fucking doing, took all my money away, took my car away and gave it to my brother (who also smokes Pot) and installed a security system in the house so I had no privacy whatsoever, all because my brothers wife told my parents I was a drug addict, which they believed with little to no evidence except for the small amount of Pot they found. Arguments and false accusations were flung at me with reckless abandon and I began drinking even more to alleviate my pain. One night I puked all over the house and an intervention was held on me the next day and by the end of that day, I was in my first rehab (12 Step based of course aren't they all?)

Within the first few days of treatment they proceeded to tell me that I was a chronic hopeless alcoholic and drug addict. I knew that I wasn't but my parents were threatening to cut me off if I didn't stay in treatment and the only way to stay was to admit to being an alcoholic and an addict, so I did. I began attending AA meetings and very quickly I felt that something was horribly wrong. Everyone began pressuring me to get a sponsor from the moment I walked in, so I got one after the meeting to shut them up. Not one meeting later, this sponsor was picking physical fights with newcomers and I heard he was a notorious 13th stepper on top of it. The greatest part? He had 20 years in the program. I should have got the fuck out right then and there, but my fear of my family at that moment was so great I simply started getting sicker and sicker.

Then came the rounds of Sober Livings, all 12 Step based and each one more insane and depraved then the last. The first one I went to had the sober living managers growing Pot in the backyard and shooting Speed in bathrooms, bringing in Prostitutes by the dozen. You heard this correctly, and we held 12 Step based meetings while everyone including the managers was getting loaded. After a few months drinking and being surrounded by this insanity I decided I had better continue school. Once again despite easy access to drugs I made the responsible choice and I was immedietly punished for it. I went to a sober living called Axis where they immedietly labeled me a pathological liar, a chronic relapser, a drug crazed belligerent animal and completely hopeless. I quickly started believing them and I became worse by the day. All I learned in all the AA, CA, NA meetings were 99% different ways to get loaded as to "identify" with newcomers most all meetings talk about drinking Alcohol and doing Drugs 24/7 (and they expect this will help people STOP using Drugs? What a load of fucking bullshit!!!)

I was introduced to a synthetic drug (in a fucking NA Meeting of all places) called K2 Spice. I went on a weeklong binge to drown the insanity, pain and lies that the 12 Step Cult was feeding into me. Eventually I was caught and kicked out on the streets. I made my way to Axis West Rehab and admitted myself, where I was treated even fucking WORSE! They basically told me and my family that I was completely hopeless and my parents could expect to find me in a body bag. WHAT KIND OF SICK DEMENTED HEALTH INSTITUTION TELLS PEOPLE THIS?!?! AA does, it comes as natural to the cult as breathing.

And despite this utter lie, I went on to achieve a year clean and sober, worked all 12 Steps, took commitments, sponsored other people. You name it, I did it, AA asked me to jump? I said how fucking high. I had no fucking life whatsoever. I had no job and didn't even have time to return to school because my whole existence revolved around attending meetings, attending step studies, sponsoring newcomers (I didn't believe anything I was fucking telling them) and watching as friend after friend relapsed, some of them dying. It was disgusting and no one at AA gave two fucks about any of my friends, the second they relapsed they talked about them like gossiping predatory vultures and cut them out of the Cult immediately. Thank God! Most of my friends never returned, the unfortunate ones who did some of them are not alive today, one cut himself with razor blades in an AA meeting bathroom. And two months after my "AA Anniversary" I myself attempted suicide and drank again. I couldn't even bear to invite my parents to see me take a cake because I had lost all desire to live. My sober living let me stay for 89 days despite the fact that I drank but proceeded to treat me like a dog. My sponsor lied to me and said that he and my family was going to drive me to Skid Row if I didn't clean the entire Sober Living with a toothbrush, do 200 hours of community service a week and write thousands upon thousands of words for the most trivial of mistakes such as leaving a cup out or not believing stupid cult bullshit (and they would assign me the harshest punishments and give me the most abuse because I thought differently from everyone else, sounds like a FUCKING CULT TO ME!!!!).

I was then kicked out of my Sober Living onto the streets again because get this bullshit, one of the house members accused me of stealing his money, after I returned money to him that I found in our room because he said he had lost it. WHAT IN THE FUCK?!?! Not only this but they kicked me out without giving me any of my Anti-Depressants or ANY medication for that matter! Fucking Barbarians!!! My parents called me on my cell phone (which my house had confiscated from me until I was kicked out) crying and begging me to come home, saying that they were sorry for everything they had put me through. I was crying too, and said I was so sorry for not being honest with them about my situation earlier. Before I could get home I was beaten and mugged on the streets and proceeded to go on a week long binge before voluntarily checking myself in to a detox.

My life is finally getting better. I'm entering school to study Music, and me and my parents have never been closer. I'm honest and open with them today, something I could never be when I believed I was an Alcoholic and a Drug Addict as Alcoholics Anonymous so vehemently had me believe. I still drink and use on weekends but my power has returned to me and I am no longer powerless, through a wonderful man named Dr. Robert Bray and a new recovery process called Thought Field Therapy (TFT for short) that uses Advanced Acupuncture points on the body to remove stress, PTSD and anxiety, all three issues of which I have come to terms with, as well as having accepted personal responsibility for my actions, something the AA Cult ensures you never do.

If you have a drinking or drug problem and the courts give you a choice of treatment or jail, choose jail if the treatment is ANYTHING 12 Step Based as you will save yourself from the literal HELL of the AA web of lies and death.

Hello Anonymous,

Thank you very much for the story. That says a lot. I'm adding it to the list of A.A. Horror Stories.

There just seems to be no limit to the quackery and depravity that can result when mentally-ill alcoholics, addicts, and convicts are considered to be qualified healers, entitled to treat an undefined "spiritual disease", and given free tyrannical reign over a group of coerced patients.

I'm glad to hear that you have escaped from the madhouse. I wish you well, and hope your future life is much more pleasant.

I had never heard of Dr. Robert Bray and a new recovery process called Thought Field Therapy (TFT for short). I'll have to check that out and learn more. I'm definitely glad to hear that he is treating PTSD. I think that a lot of survivors of 12-Step "therapy" are suffering from PTSD.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*       http://www.orange-papers.org/forum/   *
**    There are some remedies worse than the disease.
**      ==  Publius Syrus, Maxim 301 (First Century B.C.)

[The previous letter from Meatbag is here.]

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters352.html#Meatbag ]

Date: Fri, April 26, 2013 5:04 pm       (Answered 29 April 2013)
From: Meatbag
Subject: Re: Another Bullshit Comment from the Peanut Gallery

Well, I've sent my laptop to Best Buy for repairs yet again, and today, they gave unquestionable proof they don't know what they're doing. My brother just called to tell me that they said the laptop was full of viruses. My Linux laptop. No Windows on there, unless they managed to access the XP VM. If I were more of a gambling sort, I would bet money that the start-up sequence showing console output freaked them out.

Sorry to hear about your own trouble with Hostmonster. They must be drinking buddies with Best Buy. As for Tom's letter, I would be happy to mail you a check once I'm in a good financial position to do so. I only have $50 to my name right now.

And good find with the tablet there. Mine is more powerful, as you can expect, with a Snapdragon S4 1.5 GHz ARM processor and 2 GB RAM, but it is much more expensive. It does have 32 GB of internal storage, but over half of that is taken up by Windows RT (Microsoft cannot write a lightweight OS to save their life, and I do think they honestly tried). Fortunately, it does have a microSD slot, so I bought a 32GB microSDHC card for it. I thought about going for the 64GB microSDXC, but I decided I can upgrade later and give this card to either my DS flashcart or my mp3 player. This is the best card those things can support.

Windows RT's shortcomings are quite apparent now. The walls on the walled garden do not seem to be very high. I've seen very questionable apps, including Minecraft knockoffs and blatant pirated versions of popular book series. I'm convinced Microsoft's standards for the store is literally "not malware". They really need to be stricter with it.

Still, I've set up Plex on both my desktop and my tablet, so I can stream music and videos from my desktop anywhere I go now. And with the jailbreak, I have SSH and VNC, so I can access my desktop easily. I even used a script to enable Flash on all websites, rather than the ones Microsoft specifically whitelisted. I can see that they're going for a security measure there, but the whitelist excludes a lot of legitimate sites.

Speaking of the desktop, I did Linuxify it some. I installed Cygwin on there, so I have SSH and my favorite terminal applications. I also installed this on there:


It's a little buggy, but the interface is great.

And thanks for the takedown on that infographic. I figured it was wrong, but I don't really have such expertise myself. And it's fun to hear from the real experts just how wrong these things are. Sadly, I think your response would be lost on these people, since it's actually in text instead of being a colorful infographic or an animated gif.

Anyhow, best of luck with the tablet and Hostmonster. And the little goslings, of course. I'm sure you won't give them angel wing or botulism.

Hi again, Meatbag,

Thanks for the information. I had not thought of trying to install Cygwin. I wonder. I'm still trying to get a superuser terminal window so that I can just start typing commands as root. (Okay, tapping commands with one finger.) But I have FTP and SSH working okay now. So that's two out of three.

This tablet is funny in that it runs Linux and Android, but uses SD cards for disk drives that have FAT32 file systems on them, which screws up a lot of things like file names and symbolic links. I'm going to have to experiment and see if it can handle an SDHC card formatted with an ext3 file system. That would be nice. Just wipe out all Microsoft-isms.

And thanks, yes, I'm not going to give the cute little fluff-ball goslings and ducklings any diseases. Speaking of which, there is another new family of goslings that I saw yesterday, a family with four cute little babies. I gave them some whole wheat bread, and watched (and videotaped) as they alternated between eating grass and eating the bread. They have very clear inborn ideas of what constitutes good nutrition, and they insist on eating their greens. Not at all like human children who will just gorge on candy if you let them.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*       http://www.orange-papers.org/forum/   *
**    "All our geese are swans."
**      ==  Robert Burton (1577—1640)
**          The Anatomy of Melancholy, pt. I, sec. 2, member 3, subsec. 14

[The next letter from Meatbag is here.]

April 28, 2013, Sunday: The Fernhill Wetlands

Fast forwards to present time. A new family with four little goslings showed up.

Canada Goose goslings
The new Family of 4

Canada Goose goslings
The new Family of 4

Canada Goose goslings
The goslings are eating whole wheat bread.

Canada Goose goslings
Now the goslings are eating more greens. They alternated between eating bread and greens. They would only eat so much bread before they wanted more greens. They have very specific ideas of what constitutes a balanced diet for them.

[More gosling photos below, here.]

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters352.html#Louis_M ]

Date: Sat, April 27, 2013 3:44 pm       (Answered 30 April 2013)
Subject: Hay
From: "Louis M."

If there is no God we should invent one, don't you think?

Hello Louis,

I think they already did, didn't they? Several times over, thousands of years ago.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*       http://www.orange-papers.org/forum/   *
**     "And there often seems no way of entirely getting rid of self without
**     His aid. Many of us had moral and philosophical convictions galore,
**     but we could not live up to them even though we would have liked to.
**     Neither could we reduce our self-centeredness much by wishing or trying
**     on our own power. We had to have God’s help."
**       ==  The A.A. "Big Book", page 62

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters352.html#Louis_M2 ]

Date: Tue, April 30, 2013 5:51 pm       (answered 1 May 2013)
From: "Louis M."
Subject: Re: Hay

Look — you and the green papers have at it but leave me out of it. I have yet to see one single true argument complete with analysis. Please try to baffle someone else with this crap. You do not have complete argument with a premiss and an logical conclusion absent opinion. I have no more time for this. Lose my email Please Sent from my iPad

Hello again, Louis,

Yes, I will "leave you out of it", if you wish. But please remember that it was you who wrote to me. I didn't go bother you.

I have to comment on one blatantly false statement however: that I do not "have a complete argument". Yes, I do. My argument is that A.A. does not work and it is just a rewarmed old cult religion from the nineteen-thirties. I have lots and lots of evidence to support those statements, starting with,

  1. The Effectiveness of the Twelve-Step Treatment, and
  2. The Religious Roots of A.A. and the Twelve Steps

Heck, my whole web site is full of evidence. That's what I do: collect facts and publish them.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*       http://www.orange-papers.org/forum/   *
**     Alcoholics Anonymous == Crazy ideologues who still, in the face of
**     all of the evidence, claim to know something about creating sobriety.

[The next letter from Louis_M is here.]

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters352.html#Kevin ]

Date: Sun, April 28, 2013 5:37 am       (answered 30 April 2013)
From: "Kevin"
Subject: So exactly what's your purpose?

You spend an awful lot of time bashing AA, and but to what end? I guess maybe I'm missed a page link or something?


Hello Kevin,

Thanks for the question. My purpose is to broadcast the truth. It really helps some people. I just got another letter from a fellow who suffered greatly because his parents were grossly misinformed about 12-Step recovery. Check it out here. Things would have been much better if his parents had known the truth.

I hope that in the future we will have more truth and less mendacity. That may be wishful thinking, but I hope.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*       http://www.orange-papers.org/forum/   *
**     Never was there a study that substance abusers were suffering
**     from a lack of spirituality, thus being the reason they got
**     addicted. This is how AA approaches the problem, condemning
**     the addict as being spiritually sick without any proof.
**     ==  Submitted by SallyJ on February 3, 2013 — 9:26pm.
**         Comments to Psychology Today article,
**         "Does 12-step Treatment Work by Inducing PTSD?"
**         http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/addicted-brains/201301/

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters352.html#Michelle_G ]

Date: Mon, April 29, 2013 6:47 am       (answered 30 April 2013)
From: "Michelle G."
Subject: What a pile of intellectual hooey.


It was very interesting reading this very lengthy paper. The author's attempt to intellectualize a spiritual experience with statistics and supposed facts was very amusing to read.

It is often said that individuals who enter such programs consider themselves fortunate to have experience the path of self-destruction. For without the addiction or affliction they would not have come to experience this simple way of life. More often, we share a hope that those who do not have such a way of life can somehow find it. You see, the program is not about recovering from addiction. It is about learning to live life on life's terms.

One slogan you omitted was this: We don't have a drinking problem, we have a thinking problem. Our best thinking problem. You can't think your way into right actions you have to act your way into right thinking.

So for those who sit outside and claim the program is a failure, I wish that someday you might feel the freedom of spirit that comes with being right with yourself, right with those around you and right with a power greater than yourself. Human beings are rarely fulfilled. There are millions who have found this way through hardship. Millions more will continue to run through the maze like a rat to cheese in search of it and never know it exists. Millions will think they are perfect just the way they are, never knowing the world closes so many doors in the face of their mal-adjusted ego trips. Others will suffer hardships thinking "if only there was more money, if only there was someone who loved me, if only I had a different life...". Then there are those who have found it, and these are the ones you call failures by virtue of statistics.

I am grateful and fortunate indeed to be your definition of a failure. And the millions world wide who have a global fellowship are also grateful. Thank you for reminding me how fortunate I really am. I once intellectualized all of life's facets. Now I accept them and live life. Much simpler, much less complicated, vastly more rewarding.

A mountain of research and footnotes cannot reflect the fact that is the freedom of accepting life on life's terms, one moment at a time, all the while watching the unfolding of a new life that is better than most people who have no affliction could dream about. 12-steps are not about quitting alcohol or drugs, they're about good orderly direction in life. None of the 12 say you have to be able to rationalize or measure success. No one can. Yourself included.

Thanks for listening.


Hello Michelle,

Thanks for the letter. What is missing from your letter is any real information about the actual A.A. success or failure rate in sobering up alcoholics. Jabbering about wonderful "spiritual experiences" is just a load of self-deceiving bullshit when people are dying from ineffective quack medicine and cult religion.

So what is the actual A.A. cure rate? How many alcoholics does A.A. sober up, really?

Here is the standard question that no true-believer Stepper has ever answered honestly:

What is the REAL A.A. success rate?

Out of each 1000 newcomers to A.A., how many will pick up a one-year sobriety medallion a year later?
Or even several years later?
And how many will get their 2-year, and 5-year, and 10-year coins? Ever?
How about 11 years and 21 years?

No qualifiers are allowed, like, "We will only count the people who worked the program right, or we will only count the people who really tried, and kept coming back." Everybody counts. No exceptions.

No excuses are allowed. When the doctor gives a patient penicillin, and it fails to cure the infection, the doctor doesn't get to say, "But he didn't work the program right. He didn't pray enough. He didn't surrender. He held something back in his Fifth Step." No excuses.

So what's the actual A.A. cure rate?

HINT: the answers are here and here and here.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*       http://www.orange-papers.org/forum/   *
**     'If merely "feeling good" could decide, drunkenness
**     would be the supremely valid human experience.'
**       ==  William James (1842—1910), U.S. psychologist,
**        philosopher, in "The Varieties Of Religious
**        Experience", lecture 1, "Religion and Neurology" (1902)
**        Bill Wilson claimed that William James was one of the philosophical
**        fathers of Alcoholics Anonymous.

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters352.html#Randaron ]

Date: Mon, April 29, 2013 4:02 am       (answered 30 April 2013)
From: "Randaron"
Subject: I don't know what AA u went to go observe. But next time you should go in without a blind fold and ear plugs!!! AA is for alcoholics not for people that merely drink.

Sent from my Motorola Smartphone on the Now Network from Sprint!

Hello Randaron,

Actually, I cannot think of anyone, alcoholic or not, that A.A. is really for. What alcoholics really need is true information and evidence-based treatment, not Bill Wilson's cheap copy of an old pro-Nazi cult religion from the nineteen-thirties.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*       http://www.orange-papers.org/forum/   *
**     Therefore we [AA] have the full benefits of the murderous political
**     dictatorships of today but none of their liabilities.
**     William G. Wilson, Alcoholics Anonymous Comes Of Age, pages 105—106.
**     The full benefits of murderous dictatorships?
**     What benefits? Benefits to whom?
**     And what liabilities of dictatorships does A.A. not have?

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters352.html#Randaron2 ]

Date: Tue, April 30, 2013 11:53 pm       (answered 4 May 2013)
From: randaron
Subject: Re: I don't know what AA u went to go observe. But next time you should go in without a blind fold and ear plugs!!! AA is for alcoholics not for people that merely drink.

That's nice it seems I forgot to include the animosity's of psychiatrists that despise the fact that there is actually free treatment out there. between the doctors and psychiatrist they would suck the world dry of all finance just so they could place a little bronze statues of Sigmund Freud and plaques immortalizing his cocaine crazed ideas.

Hello again, Randaron,

Animosity of psychiatrists? Do you really imagine that psychiatrists are hostile to Alcoholics Anonymous because they just want the non-existent money that the down-and-out alcoholics don't pay for free A.A. meetings?

By the way, that is a prime example of the propaganda technique called Ad Hominem — casting aspersions on the motives of critics. Like, "They are only in it for the money." You have not provided any evidence that psychiatrists and doctors are guilty of overlooking or rejecting A.A. treatment that actually works.

So how well does A.A. work? What is the A.A. cure rate?

Oh well, have a good day now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*       http://www.orange-papers.org/forum/   *
**     It finally dawned on me that just because one's motive
**     isn't money doesn't mean one's motive isn't selfish.
**     (There is more than one form of profit.)
**        ==  Janet S.

[The next letter from Randaron is here.]

May 3, 2013, Friday: The Fernhill Wetlands

About half a dozen new families with babies showed up this day. This is one of them.

Canada Goose goslings
A new family with 9 goslings
That is one hard-working mama. She is gobling down the bread because she is famished. She had to make those 9 goose eggs out of her own body, and then she had to sit on them for a month, and get little food while she was doing it, so a mother goose who has just hatched out her babies is basically starving. So she is eagerly gobling up the bread. The father, on the other hand, is not starving, so he is just hanging back and letting the others get the food. The babies don't know what bread is. They have never seen it before. But they learn rapidly. They are watching their mother eat the stuff, so they will too.

Canada Goose goslings
The babies are getting curious about what Mother is eating.

Canada Goose goslings
Now the babies are eating the bread.

Canada Goose goslings
The mother is asking me for some more bread. So, yes, I gave her more.

[The story of the goslings continues here.]

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters352.html#Hirondelle ]

Date: Mon, April 29, 2013 5:31 pm       (answered 1 May 2013)
From: "Hirondelle"
Subject: Letters

Hello Orange,

First, I want to thank you for your wonderful website. I speak French and there's nothing comparable in French. It's important that all materials are available in other languages for help more people. It is a cult international.

I am not a AA members, by cons, I have been a member for 6 years, from OA and DAA (CoDA in French).

I'm looking for good information of this quality since long time. I told myself that I should not be the only one to find some bad things and how to deprogram me.

I have long questioned the problems in anonymous fraternities without being able to put my finger on.

Thank you

Date: Mon, April 29, 2013 5:50 pm       (answered 1 May 2013)
From: "Hirondelle"
Subject: information

Hello Orange

I want to thank you again for your wonderful website. I finally found the problem while reading a book from Steven Hassan on how protected sects. This book helped me to recognize the characteristics found in the following sects: AA, NA, GA, OA, DAA, CoDA, Al-Anon, etc ...

An interesting site helped me

In this website it recognizes sectarian characteristics of AA. This is the website of Steven Hassan specialist sects.

His book helped me to arrive at your site. This book I read in French is called Combating Cult Mind Control. He described the "BITE model and Describes the" four components of mind control as:

  • Behavior control
  • Control Information
  • Thought Control
  • Emotional control

For more information Wikipedia page provides an overview of these writings

Thank you

Hello, Hirondelle,

Thank you for the letters and the compliments.

I know a fair a bit about Steve Hassan and his books and web site. I was just recommending him and his books to another person in this letter:

I also have a summary of the BITE model here:

Steve and I agree on pretty much everything except A.A. being a cult. He doesn't think that A.A. is a cult. I do. I don't think that Hassan knows much about how A.A. really operates. He knows a lot about the Moonies, because he was a member of that organization for about 7 years, but I don't think he was ever a member of A.A., so he doesn't know about all of the bait-and-switch tricks and how the hidden reality is just the opposite of the face that they present to the public. He also doesn't seem to know what a horrendous failure rate A.A. really has. And I don't think he knows about the Nazi cult religion history of Alcoholics Anonymous.

He also overlooks how the legal system in the USA is forcing people into the 12-Step cult religion. That was, of course, encouraged, promoted, and established by A.A. members over the last 70 years.

You are lucky that the laws of France outlaw cults and cult religions. I think you still have Alcoholics Anonymous there, but at least you don't allow Scientology.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*       http://www.orange-papers.org/forum/   *
**     Since mind control depends on creating a new identity within
**     the individual, cult doctrine always requires that a person
**     distrust his own self.
**    ==  Combatting Cult Mind Control, Steven Hassan, 1988, page 79.
**    And that describes Alcoholics Anonymous exactly.

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters352.html#Paul_C ]

Paul C. posted in Orange Papers

Copy of mail just sent to Dr Ben Goldacre, author of Bad Science and well known media face in UK for debunking "fake" science and medical treatment:

Dear Dr Goldacre,

I thoroughly enjoyed your excellent book Bad Science and applaud your efforts you continue to make to help educate the general public.

I was wondering if you had ever had a chance to take a serious look at the 12-step based (Alcoholics Anonymous, Narcotics Anonymous etc) recovery industry? This is a multi-billion-dollar industry taking a large amount of both private and public money in return for providing a form of treatment that seems to have absolutely no statistically significant results.

I will show my hand quite openly — I consider myself to be a survivor of the 12-step cult. I have been sober for two years now, the majority of this time free from the cult religion of AA. I fully respect the rights of an individual to hold their own religious views.

However, the prevalence of public funding being channeled towards rehabilitation centres based upon indoctrination into this religious movement despite any evidence suggesting it is effective makes me wonder — if this amount of money was being spent on homeopathy to treat cancer sufferers there would be an outcry among the scientific community. Why is this not the case with the 12-step industry? Is it simply that people are not aware of what goes on, or do I have my facts wrong?

http://www.orange-papers.org provides an excellent collection of studies and articles relating to research that has been done in this area that surpasses anything I could collect myself. There are a relatively small number of us (hopefully growing) who feel the way that I do but we are a tiny voice compared to the AA GSO media machine and any attention from the wider community, particularly people like yourself with such a good track record of exposing such rackets, is appreciated.

Yours sincerely,

P Cook

Reply to this email to comment on this post.


Hello Paul,

Thank you. For both the activism and the compliments and plug. Now the ball is in Dr. Goldacre's court. We shall see what his reaction is.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*       http://www.orange-papers.org/forum/   *
**     Distinguishing Science and Pseudoscience
**     The word "pseudo" means fake, and the surest
**     way to spot a fake is to know as much as possible about
**     the real thing, in this case science itself.
**       ==  author unknown

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters352.html#Paul_R ]

Date: Wed, May 1, 2013 3:44 pm       (answered 3 May 2013)
From: "paul r."
Subject: No fan of AA, but it is missing 2 key facets of Cults

No argument about AA quackery here...However AA lacks certain cult characteristics.

  • 1. AA is way more transparent than a cult. For example their financials are published — try that with Scientology, Kenneth Copeland Ministries, or a few other choice cults.

  • 2. With the exception of closed meetings, AA meetings are open to the public. Even at closed meetings, you can pretty much go without anyone caring. Cults monitor there classes and meetings much more heavily than AA does.

  • 3. I have never seen a person tracked down if they left, like a cult does. I have experience with many cults, and they usually aggressively pursue people to pull them back in. Haven't seen that behavior systematically done in AA as a practice.

While I am not a fan of AA, I usually reserve the word CULT for groups having at least the above characteristics.

Hello Paul,

Thanks for the letter. Alas, those points are not valid. The Cult Test has 100 questions that cover the objectionable behavior of most cults. Just picking out three items is not an accurate analysis of whether a group is a cult. And in fact, two out of the three items that you picked are not even in the test.

  1. Financial openness or secrecy? That isn't a cult characteristic. Try to get the truth from Goldman Sachs or Olympus Corporation.
  2. Open meetings? Try to visit the White House and sit in on a cabinet meeting. Or a Vatican meeting of Cardinals.
  3. Stalking defectors? Now you are getting close. Extreme possessiveness of members is a cult characteristic. However, this is highly variable, and is different from cult to cult. Most cults just let you walk away, because most people do just that. All cults have very high dropout rates, and they cannot waste all of their time chasing defectors.

Now, about A.A.:

  1. Both Alcoholics Anonymous and Scientology reveal the same financial information, because they are required to file Form 990 with the IRS to maintain their tax-exempt status. I doubt though, that either of them is telling the truth in their numbers.

    It only took me about 10 seconds with Google to find a lot of information about the Scientology Form 990 filings. Try googling "Form 990 for Scientology". You will get a bunch of links, including:

    There is plenty of information about the A.A. filings too. What is particularly relevant is the fact that the A.A. filings are untrue and perjurous. Former General Manager Greg Muth was playing fast and loose with the A.A. money. When I questioned why A.A. was paying their EDP manager Lillianna Murphy $175,742.00 per year, she saw it and wrote to me and said that she was not paid even half that much. So Greg Muth was rerouting money to somebody else's pocket and claiming that it went to the EDP manager. That is felony fraud and embezzling. Then Greg Muth gave $469,000 of A.A. money to his lawyer friend Tom Jasper as a going-away present. Muth has never adequately explained that.

    Also see this information about the finances:

  2. Open meetings? That's nothing. Every cult I ever visited had open meetings, and there were a lot of them. They were even eager to get you to attend their meetings. That's how they recruit. And yes, they have lots of meetings. They want you to come and chant with them, or meditate, or do Bible Study, or yoga, or "motivational meetings", or whatever. It's always something.

  3. Stalking quitters and defectors? While I agree that A.A. true believers don't always do it, and nobody came after me when I quit A.A., I've received a lot of stories where people complained about just that. Here are some of them:

Now, for a more accurate and fair analysis of whether A.A. is a cult, you should read the entire Cult Test, and rate A.A. on those 100 questions yourself.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*       http://www.orange-papers.org/forum/   *
**     Bill Wilson, the founder of Alcoholics Anonymous, declared that A.A.
**     was a "bridge" to unquestioning faith.
**     (The Big Book, 3rd & 4th Editions, William G. Wilson, Page 53.)
**     Lafayette Ronald Hubbard, the founder of Scientology, sold Scientology
**     procedures as a "bridge to total freedom".
**     Gee, in cults, everybody wants to sell you the Brooklyn Bridge.

May 3, 2013, Friday: The Fernhill Wetlands

Canada Goose goslings
A new family of 4 goslings

Canada Goose goslings
The Family of 9 goslings is eating some grass now, to go along with the bread that they just ate.

Canada Goose goslings
A new Family of 5

Canada Goose goslings
A family with at least 12 goslings
You can just see the top of the head of one behind the father's back. There are two more hidden in the weeds on the right. You can just barely make them out.

Canada Goose goslings
The Family with 12
They have taken to the water, and now we can see 12 goslings more clearly.

The twelfth gosling is nearly invisible. Look closely at the upper neck of the adult on the left. You can see the back of the head of one gosling on the left edge of the neck, and just the tip of an open beak on the right-hand edge of the neck. That isn't the same gosling; that is two. And you can see the top of the back of the second gosling behind the top of the back of the first. Some people have said that this family has 13 goslings. They may have miscounted, or there may be another gosling hidden. We shall see.

[The story of the goslings continues here.]

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters352.html#Sharon ]

Date: Tue, April 30, 2013 10:55 pm       (answered 1 May 2013)
From: "Sharon"
Subject: Registration approval for Sherk

I love your site. Wow...so much information!

I am in court ordered therapy and have a counselor who insists she can mandate me to attend AA specifically. I'm thinking she cannot but I am conflicted whether to argue or go along. Those meetings are so intuitively wrong on so many levels (which you outline so well). I so look forward to reading the forums and learning more about my rights.


Okay Sharon, you are in. Welcome.
I want to send you a longer answer, but it will take a little while to get together.
For now, let me say that Stanton Peele has a book "Resisting 12-Step Coercion", which I believe is now a free download on the Internet.

Have a good day now.
== Orange

*          orange@orange-papers.org       *
*      AA and Recovery Cult Debunking     *
*      http://www.orange-papers.org/      *
*    http://www.orange-papers.org/forum   *
**    "Now I know what it's like to be high on life.
**     It isn't as good, but my driving has improved."
**         ==  Nina, on "Just Shoot Me", 13 Jan 2006.

From: "Sharon"
Subject: Re: Registration approval for Sherk
Date: Wed, May 1, 2013 5:42 pm

Thanks for the link!
Seems I found one of those chapters already but not the whole book. Off to read... (link does work)

Date: 4 May 2013

Hello again, Sharon,

I wanted to add this information:

  1. The Federal Appeals Court in Hawaii, the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, September 7, 2007, in the Inouye v. Kemna case, ruled that any "coercing authority" can be held individually, civilly liable for the 1st Amendment constitutional rights violation that they perpetrate on people unwillingly and involuntarily forced to go to 12-Step programs. Meaning: you can sue a judge, a prison warden, a parole officer, a "counselor", or anyone else in a position of authority who forces you to go to A.A. meetings.

    I think Ken Ragge has a copy of the court's ruling on his web site: http://www.morerevealed.com/courts/index.html

  2. The U.S. Supreme Court has not exactly ruled that A.A. is a religion. Rather, they allowed to stand, unchallenged and unchanged, several lower court decisions that said that A.A. was a religion, or engaged in religious practices. So effectively, by inaction, the U.S. Supreme Court has made it the law of the land.

    We were just discussing this issue in two previous letters, here, so you want to see that.

    Then you can read about the list of court cases on the "It's Spiritual, Not Religious" web page.

Have a good day now, and good luck.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*       http://www.orange-papers.org/forum/   *
**     The less justified a man is in claiming excellence for his
**     own self, the more ready he is to claim all excellence for
**     his nation, his religion, his race, or his holy cause.
**     A man is likely to mind his business when it is worth
**     minding. When it is not, he takes his mind off his own
**     meaningless affairs by minding other people's business.
**       ==  Eric Hoffer, The True Believer

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Last updated 20 October 2013.
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