Letters, We Get Mail, CCLXIII
by A. Orange



[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters263.html#Pete ]

Date: Mon, September 19, 2011 4:47 pm     (answered 20 September 2011)
From: "pete h."
Subject: minors expoited by steppers-

for some reason the letter got returned. I would like this version as opposed to the fb one. trying again-

Before I begin I wish to make my plug again with everyone else that you put this info into a book. If not for the fame and fortune we all think that you deserve, than for the posterity of future generations who may be deprived of internet access, have their web searching monitored or censored, or even just plain run out of power for computers. Steppism wrecks such tremendous havoc in peoples' lives, is such a rabid threat to life and liberty, that therefore steppism will continue to pustulate if such info is unavailable.

A tiger in my opinion does not change its stripes; I feel it incumbent to advance this info as the perpetrators are still in meetings halls, and young peoples are habitually sentenced to such backwaters. Some below are now police officers and work in treatment centers. As I write this I feel it is important to note that I have no interest in being the sex police, and whether we lower the age of consent is an entirely different matter. I have contacted all perpetrators I shall discuss for comment, and have yet to receive a response though given ample time.

Also, from my earliest days in Ryther child center to the present in my tenure at AA, I have witnessed the crime of freely dispensing cigarettes with impunity to minors in AA meetings and adolescent treatment centers — the crime of contributing to the delinquency of minors if not also adding to the healthcare burden — and this crime is unenforced.

Such attitudes advanced by the fascist cult of AA have done everything to encourage these examples of statutory rape and sexual exploitation of minors that I have witnessed over the years. In the Bainbridge group [Bainbridge Island, Washington State] of AA, bleeding over into the neighboring Poulsbo, group things really got out of hand.

  1. The first example — Tom Gow — had it put to him bluntly: "She is only 13 — that is 3 years away from 10 years old."

    What is important to note about Tom, who was in his twenties I believe at the time, is that now — or so it looks from his facebook page — he is a police officer. I asked him if he has ever arrested or had someone convicted for this crime, and have received no comment. I am not sure but he may have been working for Sundown at the time, and did work for this treatment center before he became a police officer.

  2. The next case is one Ron Miguel Jr. He had a relationship with a 16 year old that went on for two years in AA until she went to college. He frankly admitted that they were having sex in violation of the law. Ron is important because his father is a big time "oldtimer" in meetings, so Jr. was basically given a free hand. My opinion is that this was the green light for other following instances — including Gow's. His underage girl friend also had a friend who made the rounds in meetings, I assume they were the same age, and was involved with members Tim Tomspson and JT Knowlton — I am not sure of her age at the time.

  3. Then there was Glen (last name unknown). Glen migrated from the east coast to Bainbridge [Washington] with 10 years of steppism behind him, which granted him instant cult status. He began to spend all his time with a fourteen year old from an underprivileged background. They would often show up late to meetings together with their hair wet as if they just took a shower, and then could be witnessed there displaying what public schools define as "PDA's" — personal displays of affection — which are not allowed between consenting minors in a public school setting. Every body gossiped about this; nothing was done.

    I finally confronted the two with the position that — if it looks like a duck, acts like a duck — you know what. . .? and I was told point blank this was none of my business. This claim seems so fitting from a Nazi-inspired Oxford Group offshoot — Was that not the basic position of the 3rd Reich regarding the Holocaust(?) — "It was none of our business."

    Like 911 truth, I have made it my business. Apparently, the excuse he offered for the behavior was unless we all witnessed those two in bed together, we have no proof. I will leave it up to the readers if they feel it is appropriate for their 14 year old daughter to spend all her time with a 26 year old Hall Rat. I got better things to do than follow steppers around sniffing the sheets. The upshot of all this is that they "ran off" together, and I think we can all do the math.

  4. The last example I wish to note is someone from the Poulsbo group whose name I do not know. There was another 13 year old girl there who was dating Ron's younger brother Lawrence — both minors; no crime there. This person in his mid twenties became Lawrence's sponsor, stole his 13 year old girl friend, and then made Lawerence do his fourth step. JT Knowlton it should also be noted was accused of date-raping another young female in that group. He and Ron Jr. affiliated with a local Tribe, and convinced them to send a cadre of their wayward youth in that time-honored, failsafe cure for addiction and delinquency — a forced march through the wilderness. They somehow persuaded this young female to participate as well, and six months later she had still not been paid for her services, in addition to claiming she was date-raped. These twisted wilderness expeditions have direct ties to steppism, and let no one claim otherwise.

  5. The last example I wish to note is Harold Shraeder of the Sedro — Wolly group. He is said to have numerous affairs with underage girls in 12-step halls, one of which produced a child. Harold is noteworthy in that he now whines in AA meetings about having to pay child support for his actions, and the child with its mother has grown up on the welfare rolls. Moreover, I have witnessed Harold living illegally and fraudulently in public housing with this child's mother — unable or incapable of housing himself. What are the odds he listens to Rush Limbaugh and voted for president frat-boy?

When adolescent treatment centers and the courts sentence minors to Steppism this inevitable out come results. Nothing less can be expected from the Nazi loving cult of a wall street huckster, and this has to stop and stop immediately. Steppism is simply a menace to life, liberty, and the general welfare of society. Nothing greater underscores this base hypocrisy than the above examples.

Hello Pete,

Thanks for the report from Bainbridge Island. I think it is important for the public to hear what is really going on. And how much danger their children are in if they get sent to 12-Step "help".

For the other readers: Here is a previous letter about the Bainbridge Island group.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*       http://www.Orange-Papers.org/forum/   *
**
**      Someday, maybe there will exist a well-informed, well-considered,
**      and yet fervent public conviction that the most deadly of all
**      possible sins is the mutilation of a child's spirit.
**         ==  Erik Erikson





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters263.html#Ruth_H ]

Date: Fri, September 19, 2011     (answered 20 September 2011)
From: "Ruth H."
Subject: Survivor Of Christ Covenant Cult says thanks and HELP??????

This test hits every doubt or concern about the place I was born into and lived for 26 years. Christ Covenant Anglican Catholic Church (formerly His Community, etc. etc) has been going strong since 1969 and boasts over 200 members in Marshfield, Vt. With its own school, grocery store, and banking system, it is highly self-sufficient. Nearly every point on the list hits home. If you want a clear cut case of systematic abuse and absolute shunning of x-members including family, along with the ability to deceive some very intelligent people, this is your place.

After coming out it is incredible how I discover nearly every day ways "they" are still effecting my mind and the way I think. This place is begging for an investigation but people around here are too scared to act. The closest we have ever come is an article by Daniel Staples at the Times Argus a few weeks ago in the Sunday paper. People across the country have been affected and want to be heard. The place has shed many members over the years. Should you be in an investigative mode this place will blow your mind. In any event, thanks for the list. If my friends and family I left behind ever begin to question, I plan to use it as a tool to help them see the light as it helped me.

Thanks again.
Ruth H.

Hello Ruth,

Thank you for the letter and the compliments. I'm sorry to hear about your suffering, but I'm glad that you are out. Yes, I feel in an investigative mood, so I shall have to search and investigate. It will take time.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*       http://www.Orange-Papers.org/forum/   *
**     You can say that some groups are cults. LaRouche's bunch,
**     Moonies, Scientology, Heaven's Gate, etc. There are
**     published scales to measure how much some group is a cult.
**       ==  Keith Henson





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters263.html#Jamie_G ]

Message on Facebook:

Hey Orange..

Found this Audio of the sinclair method.. There's 4 parts on youtube altogether.. Very interesting stuff.. This is the Book I mentioned..

Take care dude..

Little Known Cure 2 of 4

http://youtu.be/rZqJt87Wtl4

A YouTube adaption of Intellectual Iceberg's segment from 2005 on a cure for alcoholism called "The Sinclair Method" or "Pharmacological Extinction".

Thanks Jamie,

I'll have to check that out. The Sinclair Method sounds very promising.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*       http://www.Orange-Papers.org/forum/   *
**    Whisky is a good thing in its place. There is nothing like it for
**    preserving a man when he is dead.  If you want to keep a dead man,
**    put him in whisky; if you want to kill a live man put whisky in him.
**      ==  Guthrie.





July 20, 2011, Wednesday, a side trip to the Fernhill Wetlands this summer:

Pelicans
Pelicans at the Fernhill Wetlands

These pelicans are just scooping up and swallowing the fish. You can see the outline of a caught fish in the pouch of the pelican in the lower picture.


Pelicans

[More gosling photos below, here.]





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters263.html#Neverdidthesteps ]

Date: Sun, September 18, 2011 11:26 am     (answered 20 September 2011)
From: "Neverdidthesteps"
Subject: Just an over-lengthy thank you

Orange,

I have spent the last 5 days absorbing as much as I can of the information on your pages. I only wish that I had seen it years ago. I have spent the last 10 years sober and the 17 years prior to that not drinking (in actuality sober). Prior to that, I was a drinker who drank "alcoholically" and was very probably an alcoholic. I really don't know? I do know that I was a mess.

In 1999, after my wife left, I made a failed, half-serious suicide attempt and through what I now realize was a huge not-so-funny comedy of errors, I entered a treatment facility, for depression, which ONLY used 12 step treatment methods. After an hour long counseling and evaluation session, it was determined that I was an alcoholic who had been maintaining a "dry drunk" status for the last 17 years and that they were sure that their program of AA would help me. The truth of the matter is more probably that I had pretty darn good insurance and they really didn't want to suggest I go somewhere else; however they really didn't have anything else to offer in the way of a diagnosis that would allow them to get paid. The next 17 days were filled with 3 meetings a day, the proverbially 3 hots and a cot and lots and lots of card playing, some arts and crafts (mostly gluing the AA slogans onto plaques for the local AA rooms in the area — apparently to thank them for bringing "outreach" meetings to the facility) and waiting for the next smoke break. The cost of this program over and above my insurance coverage would be about 1700 dollars, IF I didn't attend the expected and suggested 90 in 90 meetings at a local AA room and returned with a signed attendance card. Otherwise, I was good to go, or as they said, "as fixed as we know how to get you." They chided to me as I left "Take it Easy", "Let go and let God" and of course the ever popular "It Works If You Work It".

I fell right into the meeting routine (3 a day for 90 days) and made a lot of friends; something that I hadn't had in years. I actually started feeling better. After 90 days, I chaired meetings and made coffee and eventually became a trusted servant as the procurement and purchasing member for the group.

I, however, like you, never had a sponsor other than a guy who "appointed himself" to me and I never worked the steps. I also felt horrible that I was lying through my teeth and telling people that I was doing all of the things they wanted me to do in order to feel like a part of the group. I actually wanted to fit in so much, I picked up the proverbially inevitable "white chip" after a couple of years because everyone else who was actually "working the program and the steps" was relapsing and getting lots of attention and well, I kind of thought that was what "real alcoholics" (as if that is some sort of badge of honor) were supposed to do. And of course the self-appointed sponsor gloated that

  • a) It never would have happened if I hadn't fired him as my sponsor. (Never really hired him although I DID in fact fired him)
    And
  • b) If I had waited a couple of more weeks he wouldn't have won the old-timers pool.
    And
  • c) I could now relax and "get with the program" because I already had my brush with death and was blessed and lucky enough to survive. (Of course I never really picked up that drink nor even thought about it)

This room was no different than any other club centered AA group which offers 30—35 meetings a week; consisting of a small group of extremely overbearing, outwardly "jovial" (to avoiding using the word happy) — inwardly miserable — old men who pounced on the male newcomers to do service work like sweeping and cutting grass, and lusted after the newcomer females.

About 5 years after doing 2—3 meetings a day, and after watching a friend of mine die as the results of his continually relapsing on alcohol and crack and not getting the treatment that he needed because his (yeah, you guessed it) sponsor (yeah you guessed it again one of those tough old Billy goats who thinks that the steps will get you sober and service work will keep you sober) really didn't think that he needed treatment (or maybe it was that he needed his car washed that weekend); I decided that the room that I attended was too sick to continue in, and basically stopped going to AA.

I moved to another town for financial reasons and have spent the last 5 years maintaining my sobriety by just not drinking (which in fact actually "does work if you work it"). I'm still trying to kick those smokes and I'll get there soon. For reasons really that probably had a lot more to do with feeling a little out of the loop and not meeting as many people that I thought I should have after the move, I recently looked up and found the local rooms in the town where I now live. I caught a few meetings and met some very nice people — as I expected I would. The people in the rooms are usually either "nice and lonely hurting people" or proselytizing, Big Book thumping jerks that are also hurting. Reminds me of the James Thurber fable, "The Bear Who Let It Alone",
http://4brightminds.info/thurber/bear_let_it_alone.jpg

I picked up my 10 year coin and was invited to tell my story at the next speaker meeting (obviously, the lonely folks probably wanted to get to know someone new and the jerks wanted to buy me back into the "program" and take credit for something which they never had a part in, either innocently or nefariously). While doing this I actually did a lot of writing my experiences and being honest with myself and I wish I could tell you I didn't tell "my story", alas I did. I was almost hooked again — on the meetings, that is, not the sauce. I went back into an online chat-room (aaonline.org) that I used to participate in and signed in one night only to find that a woman telling the room that she wanted to kill herself. Half of the people there were telling her "How 'chicken shit' that that solution is according to both the Big Book and the Bible (not a verbatim quote)" and the rest of them were letting her know that it was her character defects and shortcomings that were responsible for her feeling that way and of course, the inevitable, that it was her Disease talking and this too shall pass. Not one person suggested or questioned whether she might be off of her meds, might need to seriously find a doctor for a legitimate diagnosis, or anything else. I posted to the room that I felt like that someone should have suggested that she should contact a suicide hotline or a local mental health emergency number and was (yeah I'm sure you are way ahead of me on this one too) told that that was an "Outside Issue" and not tolerated in the room. Of course that was after a seven or eight second pause of complete silence (as in what the hell do we write when someone asks that?) in the room. I was floored by this. Spouting slogans and worthless acronyms was all they had???

I actually found your site while trying to find an answer for this woman "google-ing" suicide and AA. I went back to my home group the next day and when I mentioned the previous night's events to one of my friends there, I was told, "lots of 'us' die from this disease" and of course one of the proverbial "old-timers" was eavesdropping and chimed in that those people did exactly what they were supposed to do because that woman couldn't have been working the program very well if she wanted to kill herself — they needed to stay away from her or else they might get drunk.

Of course, I had already heard and known what would be the "party" line on that, but I couldn't help but worry that this woman might have ended her life because, while she was seriously seeking help of something that she had been told was supposed to be there for her, the "hand of AA", she was only given slogans, acronyms and misinformation.

Talk about your "spiritual awakenings". I think I finally had one. (It's true that this is a life and death disease/whatever-the-hell-category it goes into... and the amateurs are neither trained nor capable of treating it.)

So, here I am now. Feeling compelled to write to you. Telling you where I am with all of this. Feeling partly responsible for the death of a guy who had become my best friend and what may have been the death of a woman who was just asking for help. All that was offered in either case was trite little cutesy slogans and asinine acronyms and warnings of outside issues.

Actually I haven't been able to quit reading this site — downloaded it and have it on my a flash drive so that can take it with me to doctor appointments where they have no wi-fi — hell, I even let my Farmville crops wither while reading your site. Just kidding, I actually harvested them on time, (although, it would have made for a good story,) but it was close.

I know this is very lengthy and I probably should have stopped hours ago, but I do need to add in here that I honestly feel like the average "rank and file" AAer has no idea of how insidious this cult is, talk about something that is cunning, baffling and powerful. Come to think of it you could probably substitute "Alcoholics Anonymous" in a global search and replace for the word alcohol and the word yourself for God and have a pretty good statement. Most of the AAers I have met are truly interested in getting and staying sober and helping other people do the same; either because they have been conned into believing it or they are just that lonely and simply don't care because the fellowship puts them into contact with others who, like themselves, are by default and admission, "damaged goods".

What's the good news? You've offered not only other options to AA (and the other TSP's), but also gave a reasonable and very liberal list of "good" things that AA has to offer. I don't know if I was an alcoholic and because I haven't had a drink in almost 27 years, I don't think I really need those other options, but you can bet I have them listed on my desktop for people I think may need them. I applaud your smoking cessation (I actually only started smoking again after 17 years quit when I first went into treatment and into the rooms) and will try and give myself that gift sooner than later.

Please keep up the good work. I absolutely love the photos and stories of the geese. Thanks for letting me vent and share my "real" story with someone who understands. I just felt the need to share this with someone — and I am sure that this only serves to corroborate information that you already know and have.

There should really be no reason to post this on your site (and I don't really wish for it to be posted), as it certainly is just one more of the same song you hear everyday that I am sure that you receive from every other person who writes — unless of course, you feel as though it adds, somehow, to the conversation at hand. If that is the case please email me ahead of time. There a few people in the rooms who I now know pay attention to your site that will recognize my story and I really don't want to have to deal with them. Please make sure that my email address disappears as I have noticed is your regular and responsible practice and sign me, simply, as,

Neverdidthesteps

Hello Neverdidthesteps,

Thank you for the letter and the compliments, and I'm glad that you like the geese too.

That is really an incredible story, and not your usual letter. Thanks for your permission to print it.

About this line:

... don't know if I was an alcoholic and because I haven't had a drink in almost 27 years,...

I don't know if you were "an alcoholic" either, but I don't think you are now. You know, a lot of people drink too much when they are young. They "party hearty". And then they grow up and become responsible citizens and are boringly normal. That is what you call "being human".

And other people get really depressed when their marriage breaks up, and they drink too much for a while. That is also what you call "being human".

What does A.A. even mean by "an alcoholic", anyway? A.A. uses three or four different definitions of "alcoholic", and mixes them up, which really confuses the issue.

We've been over this before, but I guess it's time to reprint the definitions again:

The definitions are:

  1. An alcoholic is someone who habitually drinks far too much alcohol.
  2. An alcoholic is someone who is hyper-sensitive to alcohol, almost allergic to alcohol, perhaps a genetic alcoholic; someone who cannot drink even one drink or his drinking will spin out of control and he will become readdicted to alcohol.
  3. An alcoholic is somebody who cannot quit drinking — he is "powerless" over alcohol.
  4. An alcoholic is an insane sinner who is full of disgusting character defects and moral shortcomings and resentments and barely-contained anger, and is a prime example of self-will run riot and instincts run wild and selfishness and self-seeking and the Seven Deadly Sins, although he doesn't think so... etc., etc., ...

When I call myself an alcoholic, I usually mean definition 2, and only occasionally definition 1, but never definitions 3 or 4.

  1. By definition 1, I stopped being an alcoholic more than 10 years ago.
  2. By definition 2, I will always be an alcoholic.
  3. By definition 3, I wasn't an alcoholic, because I could quit drinking, and I did. I was not "powerless over alcohol". I even quit drinking without any help from A.A., because I quit drinking two weeks before I was ever sent to an A.A. meeting.
  4. By definition 4, I was never an alcoholic. I was always a nice drunk. People liked having me at their parties because I was so much fun to have around when I got high. (But, as one friend said, "Even nice drunks die of cirrhosis of the liver...")

So you pick which definition of "alcoholic" you prefer, and you will get the yes or no answer to whether I am an alcoholic.

And I guess the same goes for you.

The story about the suicidal woman is really appalling, but I believe it. It's just astounding, the depths to which people can sink when they brainwash themselves into believing a bunch of crazy dogma. Obviously, that is not a "self-help" group.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*       http://www.Orange-Papers.org/forum/   *
**     "A useful idea has turned into a religious movement —
**     and a hindrance to research, psychiatry, and to many
**     alcoholics who need a different kind of help."
**        ==  Dr. Arthur H. Cain, Alcoholics Anonymous: Cult or Cure?,
**      Harper's Magazine, February 1963.





[The previous letter from Robin_F is here.]

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters263.html#Robin_F ]

Date: Mon, September 19, 2011 6:06 pm     (answered 23 September 2011)
From: "Robin F."
Subject: Re: Re:

Do you actually believe that this is news to anybody. It is unfortunate that some people find it necessary to attack others to make themselves seem superior. Let those who are without sin cast the first stone.

Sent from my iPhone

Hello again, Robin,

Thanks for the letter. You are demonstrating a very standard A.A. dodge to avoid criticism.

First off, there is the minimization and denial: "This is news to anybody."

Actually, it is news to a lot of people. I recently received a letter from a woman who decided to quit A.A. when she learned that A.A. was founded by a sexual predator. Look here: orange-letters258.html#Wendy_N.

Then you tried the "don't criticize others" dodge. That is a favorite of criminals and con artists and cults. They don't like to get criticized.

What you don't seem to realize is that Jesus had different ways of handling different situations. When he was confronted with the adulteress whom the crowd wanted to stone to death, He said, "Let he who is without sin throw the first stone."

The logic and morals are simple and obvious: She didn't deserve to be executed for having made love with someone else. But Jesus didn't let her off totally: He told her to go and sin no more.

On the other hand, when Jesus walked into the Temple and found the money-changers cheating people and running a racket, He picked up a whip and yelled,

"It is written in the scriptures that God said,
'My temple will be called a house of prayer for the people of all nations.'
But you have made it into a hideout for thieves!"
(Mark 11:15. Also see Matthew 21:12 and Luke 19:45.)

And then He whipped them from the Temple.

Well A.A. is a lot like a corrupt Temple, full of liars and thieves and sexual predators. They talk about God a lot, and pray a lot, but they don't bother to follow the rules of any major respectable religion. There are plenty of hypocrites who say the Lord's Prayer loudly at the end of the meeting, and then make a beeline for that young female newcomer.

The world should know that it was the Founder, Bill Wilson, who started that "tradition".

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*       http://www.Orange-Papers.org/forum/   *
**     "... Ye outwardly appear righteous unto men, but
**     within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity..."
**       ==  Jesus, denouncing corrupt church elders,
**             the scribes and Pharisees, in Matthew 23:28





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters263.html#Marcus_C ]

Date: Tue, September 20, 2011 7:07 am     (answered 23 September 2011)
From: "marcus c."
Subject: RE: Article on brainwashing as teen substance-abuse treatment

Really love the baby duck pictures!

Here is a bit more for your archives, it is a recently published interview with William White about the Straight Inc program. There is some history and a comparison to a Communist reform prison. Straight was what the Communist brainwashing prisons would have been if they had been converting people to the 12 steps rather than Communism. And instead of Chairman Mao, Straight was endorsed by the Reagan's and Bush's.

http://www.williamwhitepapers.com/pr/2011%20Marcus%20Chatfield.pdf

The program was federally funded at first, then merely federally "protected".... the White House did fund raisers and telethons for Straight while Straight was sued over and over.... There have not been any criminal lawsuits against the adults who operated, protected or endorsed the program.

Anyway...for your archives...

Marcus

Thank you for that information. Thank you very much. I find it simply appalling, almost unbelievable, that such things are being done to our children, and our corrupt politicians endorse it.

It's actually worse than what is being done to suspected terrorists. When Arabs are grabbed in the middle of the night and renditioned to secret prisons where they are tortured, the perpetrators can at least rationalize that they are saving lives. They can rationalize that they are torturing nasty murderous criminals who are planning to kill a lot of people. ( — Which may or may not be true...)

When that is done to our children, there is no such rationalization. Well, other than the lame excuse that they are "saving the children from a life of crime."

Doesn't it sound just like the justification for burning pretty girls at the stake for witchcraft? "We are saving her from Hell by burning the evil out of her."

It is also disgusting and appalling that there have been no prosecutions of the monsters who ran Straight. They deserve to go to prison for a lot of years.

Oh well, have a good day now.

== Orange

P.S.: The file is now archived locally, here:
2011_Marcus_Chatfield.pdf

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*       http://www.Orange-Papers.org/forum/   *
**      Someday, maybe there will exist a well-informed, well-considered,
**      and yet fervent public conviction that the most deadly of all
**      possible sins is the mutilation of a child's spirit.
**         ==  Erik Erikson


Date: Sun, September 25, 2011 1:49 pm
From: "marcus c."
Subject: RE: Article on brainwashing as teen substance-abuse treatment

It means so much to me that you take the time to respond to thoughtfully. I know you must be busy, and still you manage to make me feel heard and respected. Thanks for that.

I find it rather easy to skim my emails and reply in haste just to get it done...I'm truly moved by your way of corresponding and aspire to some of that myself...

Making sour kraut today

and thinking about brainwashing

as usual

Marcus

Hi Marcus,

Thanks for the thanks, and you have a good day too.

== Orange





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters263.html#Alice ]

Date: Wed, September 21, 2011 5:04 pm     (answered 23 September 2011)
From: "Alice"
Subject: love your site

How I wish you would take the New Age and spiritual community under task!

You did a fantastic job on your site.

Thanks, Alice

Hello Alice,

Thanks for the compliments. The "New Age and spiritual community" is actually too large and diverse a thing to be either praised or condemned as a whole. It's a lot of different things, and different groups, and different people. And since I lived through the whole flowering of the "New Age" movement, I have a special fondness for some of those memories.

Still, I can't help but sadly notice that the vast majority of the gurus from the 'sixties and 'seventies turned out to be frauds, phonies, or failures.

More than half of them — both the foreign and domestic ones — were just plain dishonest fakes from the very beginning, just clever characters who noticed that American kids had lots of money, and it wasn't hard to bamboozle them out of it with a bunch of "spiritual" slogans and double-talk.

The really sad cases were the people who were really genuine spiritual figures, real fellow students on the path, who fell victim to temptation, usually lust for women, wealth, power, or fame.

Out of the dozens of "teachers" who popped up during those years, I can count the remaining ones who still have credibility and a good reputation on my fingers.

Right now I feel like I have my hands full just dealing with the "recovery movement".

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*       http://www.Orange-Papers.org/forum/   *
**
**     "There is no greater crime than deceiving men in the name of God!"
**       ==  The Indian judge who heard the case of "the 14-year-old
**           'Perfect Master' Maharaji" and his brother, who were
**           suing each other over who got to use the title of
**           "The One and Only Perfect Master".
**
**     "I know of no greater sin than to oppress the innocent
**         in the name of God."
**       ==  Mahatma Gandhi, April 1947, All Men Are Brothers, page 73.





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters263.html#James_G ]

Date: Wed, September 21, 2011 6:26 pm     (answered 23 September 2011)
From: "James G" <jamesg@blamedenial.co.uk>
Subject: Fwd: Fear, Punishment and Addiction

Terry,

I have not heard from you for a while but on the off chance this film resonates with you, I thought I'd risk saying hello ;)

I hope you are well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4l4mJTAjV9o

Not that you will, but if you do post this, please use my blamedenial email address.

J a m e s G

Hi again, James,

It's good to hear from you again.

Of course I'll post this. More videos — oh goody!

I really like that video. You make so many great points. I won't just repeat them all, I'll encourage people to watch it.

But that first big line was so chilling that I have to comment on it: "The driving force in society is not love, but fear." That creates such a cold draconian Orwellian world, doesn't it? We end up with politicians who "send messages" with cruise missiles.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*       http://www.Orange-Papers.org/forum/   *
**
**     "The medium is the message."
**       ==  Marshall McLuan





July 20, 2011, Wednesday, a side trip to the Fernhill Wetlands this summer:

Pelicans fishing
Pelicans fishing

Can you believe what the pelican on the right is doing? I had no idea that they could bend their beaks like that. The pelican turns her lower jaw into a hoop for a fishing net, and scoops up fish.

Talk about a creature perfectly adapted to her environment, or her diet...

And the pelican caught a fish, too. You can see the ends of the fish pushing out the pelican's pouch on the left and right.

Pelicans fishing

These pelicans like to fish in unison. They arrange themselves in a row like that, and they all dip their beaks into the water and scoop for fish at the same time. The idea is, if a fish flees from one beak, he swims right into the next one.

By the way, I think that is two mated pairs. The pelicans hang out in pairs, and they are noticeably bonded to each other.

The first two pelicans, in the foreground, have black feathers on their heads, and the other two don't. They may be different species, or different sub-species. I'll have to get out a book and look them up.

Later: Wikipedia says that the pelicans with the black nape are in non-breeding plumage. So, apparently, pure white heads are breeding plumage. But that doesn't mean that the ones with black heads didn't breed: Wikipedia has a picture of a female with non-breeding plumage sitting on eggs. She just reverted to non-breeding plumage very soon after mating and laying eggs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_White_Pelican

So do these pelicans have some nests hidden somewhere? I want to see little pelicans.

Pelicans fishing

I got a lot of good photographs of the pelicans this day. When the day started, I thought that I wouldn't get any. When I rode my bicycle up to the edge of the water, I startled the four pelicans, who were very close to the shore, and they flew away in fright. I thought, "Well that blows that. They're gone. I won't get any photographs of those guys today."

But they came back. There are a lot of fish in the ponds, and they were attracted by the bread. When I threw the bread on the water for the ducks and geese who were in the water, it was a race between the ducks and geese and the fish to see who got the bread first. Lots of mouths would appear from below and just gobble down the bread. The fish were having a feeding frenzy. The pelicans followed the fish and came back near me, and they had their own feast.

After I fed the ducks and geese for a while, they grew comfortable with being close to me, and they were all around me. I was surrounded by geese and hungry goslings, and the ducks were getting in there and getting some bread however they could. The pelicans saw that. They are very sharp, and they noticed that I wasn't killing and eating the ducks or geese, even though there were a lot of them around me within reach. That made the pelicans feel safer, and they came closer. They still insisted on keeping 20 or 30 feet of distance between them and me, and they wouldn't come any closer to the shore than a dozen feet, but that is close enough to get good shots with a telephoto lens.

After a while, everybody calmed down and I was just casually tossing bread to the ducks and geese and carp, and the pelicans settled down for a big feed, and weren't very concerned about me being there.

[The story of Carmen continues here.]





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters263.html#Hank_H ]

Date: Fri, September 23, 2011 6:15 am     (answered 24 September 2011)
From: "Hank Hayes"
Subject: Phase 1- completed!

Hello Terrance,

Hank Hayes here author of "You've been lied to... the UNTOLD truth about mainstream alcohol and addiction treatment programs and the SECRETS on how eliminate the problem for good".

I hope you remember me, I reached out to you on including a piece in my book about your organization as a viable solution for those dealing with alcohol and addiction issues.

Well the book is finally done, will be officially released September 30, 2011 and your team and solution are in it! Wow, what a truck load of work! I now truly understand why authors get that extra special attention in many arenas, it's a whole ton of work to finish and publish a book!

In a few words, one thing that is unique about this book is our 5 master key formula. In one of the keys we point people in the direction they need to go in based on their own feedback in a personal trigger point evaluation. That's where your resource comes in, may I say — brilliant!!!

I've attached a PDF copy of the book for your immediate reading. Check out chapter eleven for your inclusion.

Just fyi in moving forward we are going to be doing an aggressive media blitz. That means; live, radio, internet and tv etc opportunities for those contributors who fit the need and have the desire. If you have contacts that you think we might be a fit for please let me know as I am a third party endorser and testimonial for your solution.

Well that's it for now. Please enjoy the book — you have contributed to its completion and future success and I am very grateful. Our cause and mission are fortified because of your organizations work.

Please feel free to reach out with any questions and to let me know how you liked the book.

Thanks,

Hank Hayes
On Track and Beyond...
www.ontrackandbeyond.com

P.S. If you go to our home page you'll find that we've included a link to you on the resources section of our site. Also if you didn't mind please like our Facebook link at the bottom of the www.ontrackandbeyond.com to help spread the message and ultimately your organization.

Hello Hank,

Congratulations on a big job done. Now I have to read the thing.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*       http://www.Orange-Papers.org/forum/   *
**     Protect your health. Without it you face a serious handicap
**     for success and happiness.
**       ==  Harry F. Banks





[The previous letter from Meatbag is here.]

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters263.html#Meatbag ]

Date: Thu, September 22, 2011 10:41 pm     (answered 24 September 2011)
From: "Meatbag"
Subject: Re: Random Comments

I'm flattered that you posted my letter. I'm kind of disappointed that Pitch Black didn't invent the term "John Barleycorn", though. That would have been a sign of original thought.

And especially congrats on quitting tobacco. That drug sounds horrid. I do have a vague idea what smoking's like on your lungs, given that I was very prone to upper respiratory infections as a kid, to the point of having double-digit absences almost every quarter in school (if my elementary school had the same attendance policy as my high school, I would never have gotten out of 4th grade). Coughing while trying to catch my breath after running around for a bit was not my idea of fun. Still isn't, actually.

Hello again, Meatbag,

Yes, being addicted to tobacco is pretty much having a chronic lung disease. Even when you aren't sick, you are sick. You just can't breathe very well. You are always tired and out of breath. And the longer you smoke, the less well you can breathe, until you aren't breathing at all.

What a nightmare. Hard to believe that I did it for 30 years, and kept getting sucked back into it after quitting it — even after quitting it for as long as a year. Some people have called tobacco the most addicting drug on earth, and I tend to believe it.

Ah, but finally, 10 years off of cigarettes. Free at last, free at last, thank God almighty, I'm free at last.

I discovered that there is a downside to your site. I visited your site within my new Haiku VM, and then I got a bunch of Google ads for 12-step treatment centers when visiting other sites. Come on, Google, that's the exact opposite of what I was looking at. Pity Web+ doesn't have NoScript and Adblock Plus, and the only BeOS/Haiku port of Firefox is based on the 2.x series.

Either your web browser, or that "Haiku VM" is doing that to you. Probably the browser. It is doing something like "framing", where it inserts its own ads into the top or bottom or edges of my web pages.

I don't have any advertisements on my web site, not a one, not anywhere. And Google isn't authorized to put any advertisements on my web pages. But somebody, probably the browser author, has a deal with Google to place ads on the web pages that you view. That's an underhanded trick, isn't it? Get a new browser. Try Firefox.

I have received lots of offers for deals to run ads, but the ads are almost always for 12-Step-oriented treatment centers, and of course I'm not going to run ads for them. And then there is the problem of control. If I agree to allow Google to place ads, what ads will they run? Do I get to choose? Can I ban ads for treatment centers? Tobacco products? Alcohol? A.A.? Other bad things? I decided that it would be simpler to just not run any ads.

I don't know anything about that "Haiku VM". Is it an operating system that runs on an iPad clone, like a Kindle or Google reader? If so, you might search for a hacked version of the program that eliminates that obnoxious behavior.

I just investigated, and sort of answered my own question. Haiku is a Linux offspring, and it's probably clean. Your browser is probably the culprit. Get a new browser.

P.S.: On re-reading your sentences there, I realize that you were saying that you get the ads after reading my pages. So you were on some other pages that do allow ads, and Google is screwing up and placing inappropriate ads? Yeh, I guess there isn't any easy fix for that.

Incidentally, I think you and those AA true believers have just indirectly inspired me to take up a new hobby. I was reading more of the letters, and I thought, "It's amazing how similar these true believer emails are. Somebody could invent a drinking game out of the phrases that appear most often." Of course, a drinking game would be unfair, given that the ones who would enjoy the humor most can't play drinking games. So, I thought of bingo cards, but there's way too much material to use for those. And a 52-card deck isn't enough for even just the slogans. I came up with the idea of trading cards, but those would require better drawing skills than what I have scrawled in the margins of my physics notebook. Therefore, I'm going to get a sketchbook and a somewhat better pen than I currently have, and work on my drawing skills, so I can draw those trading cards one of these days.

Ah, great minds think alike. A while back, someone sent me a game called "Bullshit Bingo", where people play Bingo at A.A. meetings by marking off slogans and hackneyed phrases on their cards. Look here.

As far as the South Park episode, that's what led me here in the first place. While I was watching it, I opened up Rationalwiki on a whim and looked up its article on AA. There, I found a link to your site.

Ah, interesting. I'll have to check out "Rationalwiki".

Yes, I just love that South Park episode. That and the one that spoofs Scientology, two episodes earlier.

http://www.southparkstudios.com/full-episodes/s09e14-bloody-mary

And after reading about your issues with AOL, I do have one question: Are you related to John Peter Zenger?

No, not related.

But I just looked him up, and he's an interesting character:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Peter_Zenger

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*       http://www.Orange-Papers.org/forum/   *
**     If I knew I was going to live this long,
**     I'd have taken better care of myself.
**        == Mickey Mantle


P.S.: 2011.09.29:
I looked up "John Barleycorn", and found that it is from an ancient English folk song. Musical historians have found versions as far back as 1568. The song personifies the cereal grain barley, and describes in gruesome detail how John Barleycorn must be buried and then harvested, and "killed" — milled and fermented and turned into alcohol — so that people may drink his blood:

There was three men come out o' the west their fortunes for to try,
And these three men made a solemn vow, John Barleycorn must die,
They ploughed, they sowed, they harrowed him in, throwed clods upon his head,
And these three men made a solemn vow, John Barleycorn was dead.

Those medieval people sure had a weird morbid sense of humor.

Later, "John Barleycorn" became slang for any ale or whiskey.

See Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Barleycorn


Date: Sun, September 25, 2011 3:01 pm     (answered 27 September 2011)
From: "Meatbag"
Subject: Re: Random Comments

At least my childhood lung problems were pretty easily solved by some steroids an ER doc prescribed me, after I had an allergic reaction to my prescribed Keflex. Guess I didn't work a strong Keflex program. Then again, it's a little unfair to compare Keflex and AA even jokingly, since Keflex works great for the ~90% of people who aren't allergic to it. Too bad the effects of smoking can't be reversed with a few pills.

Hi again, Meatbag,

Yes, an easy cure for tobacco and lung cancer sure would be handy.

I wasn't getting ads in your site, just from other sites that normally have ads after visiting your site. Fortunately, I don't do much web-browsing in my guest OSes, anyhow. And it's more of a minor nuisance than anything. And Haiku isn't really a Linux offspring. It's a successor to BeOS, which was a promising OS killed by Microsoft

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BeOS>.

Case in point.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitachi_Flora_Prius>

And VM is an abbreviation of virtual machine. It's probably the easiest way to run half a dozen different OSes without having that many physical machines.

Quite right. After re-reading your statement, I realized that Google was placing the inappropriate ads on other pages after you read some Orange Papers pages. That is a good example of a dumb computer program just grabbing a few key words, and not understanding the message. Google needs to work on that, or soon they will be placing advertisements for White Supremicists on Jewish web sites.

I realized that BeOS wasn't Linux later. I got fooled by a quick glance and seeing that it uses GRUB as the boot loader. Which is classic Linux. So apparently Haiku is borrowing some tools from Linux, which is a smart thing to do. There is no profit in re-inventing the wheel.

And definitely check out Rationalwiki. You would probably enjoy it. They have excellent articles on various forms of pseudoscience, among other things. Try this article

<http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Ryke_Geerd_Hamer>

on what is probably the closest thing to "AA for Cancer" that exists. Don't forget to pick your jaw back up from the floor after you read it.

Okay, I will. Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*       http://www.Orange-Papers.org/forum/   *
**     Evidently God can cure cancer and tuberculosis, but cannot
**     grow a new leg...  This is blasphemy, but not mine — the
**     priests and faith healers are guilty of limiting God's powers.
**          ==   Abraham Myerson

[The next letter from Meatbag is here.]





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters263.html#Paul ]

From: "paul"
Subject: A link to your site
Date: Fri, September 23, 2011 11:06 am     (answered 24 September 2011)

Hi, I've enjoyed your site very much and I've added a link to it on my site, StopDrinkingAlcohol.com. Your link is at:

http://www.stopdrinkingalcohol.com/alcoholism-links.html

Do you offer a page that I can add a link to my site's information?

Thank you,
Paul

Hello Paul,

Thanks for the compliments. And it looks like you've been doing some good work too. I like what I see, so I'll be happy to give you an entry on my links page, here:

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-links.html#SDA

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*       http://www.Orange-Papers.org/forum/   *
**      O health! health! the blessing of the rich! the riches of the poor!
**      who can buy thee at too dear a rate, since there is no enjoying
**      this world without thee?
**         ==  Ben Johnson, Volpone, II, 1





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