Letters, We Get Mail, CCXXIX
by A. Orange

Date: Thu, January 27, 2011 1:14 pm     (answered 21 March 2011)
From: "John"
Subject: john

I was cleaning out my bookmarks and I came across "Orange Papers", I wrote several times to you beginning about four and a half years ago over a period of several months. I had been an extremely hard core alcoholic in my early twenties, including full blown DTs several times and months in and out of 12 step rehab. I finally got clean in a program for heroin addicts that was not 12 step. or even God centered in any way. I was sober for 19 years and then I screwed up and started binge drinking for about 2 years, went to AA hated it. Read your work and it reinforced what I already knew to be true; staying sober is a personal decision only I can make. Just wanted to let you know I will not have drank for five years again next week. I quit following your "papers" over four years ago: not because I disagreed with them, it's just that I "got on with my life" and that meant not dwelling on two years of the last 26. By the way I do think AA has some value; If I ever actually think about drinking again all I have to do is remember AA and ask myself "do you really ever want to have to go to one of those meetings again?" just kidding; you do good work for people who are new to sobriety. But there is a time to move along, so I thought I would send off this note before I deleted your bookmark.


Hello John,

Thanks for an encouraging letter. Sorry to take so long to answer it. Somehow it got misplaced, and I just found it as I was doing my email house-keeping chores.

I'm glad to hear that you are doing well, and moving on.

So have a good day and a good life now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**    Nine tenths of the people were created so
**     you would want to be with the other tenth.
**       ==  Horace Walpole (1717—1797)

Date: Wed, January 26, 2011 10:56 am     (answered 22 March 2011)
From: "Facebook"
Subject: Donald L. commented on your status.

Hi Orange,


read some of the comments.... membership slowly receding. Too bad no one started a secular, open to one all, fellowship back in Wilsons time. Some of the 'secular sobrety' on line sites and meetings I have checked out are usually run by a 'guru'. One flamed me once, in error I got his 'org' mixed up with a breakaway org. Do we have to walk on eggshells just to socialize and share with our fellows who have had problems with alcohol, substances?

Perhaps starting here......"

Hi Donald,

I sure hope we don't have to all walk on eggshells. I hope everybody can just lighten up. One of the reasons that I stopped going to A.A. meetings was that I was required to only say approved things if I was going to get their approval. In fact, they wanted a show — either a tearful confession or a stand-up comedy routine. Nobody wanted to even admit that taboo subjects existed, never mind actually talk about them honestly. (Like the real origin of the 12 Steps.)

To me, a discussion group is useless if you can't tell the truth without having people attacking you.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**      It is by the goodness of God that in our country we have those
**      three unspeakably precious things: freedom of speech, freedom of
**      conscience, and the prudence never to practise either of them.
**          ==  Mark Twain (Samuel Longhorne Clemens) 1835—1910

Date: Thu, January 27, 2011 9:17 am     (answered 22 March 2011)
From: "Beth K."
Subject: Criminal Minds ... AA

Hi Orange,

I hope all is well. I thought you might enjoy Millie's post from X Steppers.

http://xsteppers.multiply.com/journal/item/1295/Criminal_Minds_at_an_AA_meeting .

My best,

Hi Beth,

Thanks for the link. Sorry to take so long to answer — I just discovered a handful of letters from the end of January that I had overlooked.

I watch Criminal Minds all of the time — indulging my dark side I guess — but I missed that episode. I'll have to catch it on reruns. Not only was the article interesting, but some of the comments were a real laugh.

I really appreciate the way that the script writers emphasized the danger of A.A. meetings: "AA meetings can be dangerous... You never know WHO you are sitting next to, now do you?"

At an A.A. meeting, I was creeped out by hearing a very large guy "sharing" the story of how he would fly into a rage and try to kill his best friend, grabbing him by the throat and trying to shove him out of the car window while driving down the freeway at 60 miles per hour.

Uh yeh, right, and I'm supposed to get life advice from these people?

(Ah, but now I'm taking somebody else's inventory, aren't I?)

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

== Orange

P.S. I've been reading the article and the comments, and was reminded of something:

If you are in Scientology, and complain that you are angry at somebody, a Scientologist will immediately ask you, "What did you do to him?"

It is supposedly all your fault, no matter what the other guy might have done to you. In Scientology, you are supposed to be just happy and cheerful all of the time — "up-scale", "Up the Emotional Tone Scale" — and if you are angry — "down-scale" — then you must have done something wrong — something "unethical". You couldn't possibly be justifiably angry about somebody having done something to you. No, if you are "down-scale", then you must have done something wrong to bring yourself down.

Sound familiar? That is standard Cult Characteristic Number Two: You Are Always Wrong. (Number One being: The Guru Is Always Right.) It is also an example of "Demands for Super-Human Perfection" — even as an abused child, you supposedly should have done a better job of controlling the world. And it is also the standard cult characteristic Don't Feel Your Own Feelings.

And in Alcoholics Anonymous, it is of course presented to you as

  • "You cannot have a resentment."
  • "You must be Serene and Grateful."
  • "It is a spiritual axiom that every time we are disturbed, no matter what the cause, there is something wrong with us. If somebody hurts us and we are sore, we are in the wrong also." (Bill Wilson, Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, page 90.)
  • "Find your part in it."

So if somebody abused you as a child, it's your fault, no matter whether you are in A.A. or Scientology.

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     When I reflect upon the number of disagreeable people
**     who I know have gone to a better world, I am moved to
**     live a different life.
**        ==  Mark Twain (Samuel Longhorne Clemens) 1835—1910

UPDATE: 11 April 2011:
I found a very relevant quote in a book on healing, and posted it to the forum, here:

[The next letter from Beth is here.]

Date: Thu, January 27, 2011 1:04 pm     (answered 22 March 2011)
From: "Max"
Subject: A comment

I've come across your "orange papers" on the internet several times. Here is my reaction. I browse a little and see some things I like and dislike. Mostly it screams anger at me. I can see what you're trying to do, and I understand some of your indignation. If you've had problems with alcohol or drugs, and no doubt things can get very confusing. AA meetings are just that, meetings. It's a support group. They were never really set up to be a "cure". I agree that that the many recovery institutions in the past bastardized various 12 step ideas and made them their own with some success and failure. It's clear you don't like Bill Wilson, or are jealous of him or something. I'm not really sure. I think he was a flawed man, like most of us. The idea of being powerless, however, doesn't appear to be understood. It's not new, or quackery or whatever. It simply states that we don't have power over people places and things, but we do have power over how we react to them. This is a major tenet of not just AA, but of mindfulness, aspects of Buddhism, and Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. Modern Addiction Concepts are changing, there are no real clear answers, but things are getting better with science and better studies. I hope you find what you are looking for, as you have spent a lot of time on your project.

take care


Hello Max,

Thanks for the letter. That is quite an apology for Alcoholics Anonymous. It is of course a mess of minimization and denial, something that A.A. says alcoholics are good at.

Starting at the top, it is not a flaw or a defect to be angry at quacks and frauds who hurt sick people by foisting ineffective quackery on them — which is what A.A. is. Being angry is not "axiomatically spiritually wrong", like Bill Wilson wrote. When they tell you that you cannot be angry, they are cutting off your balls and keeping you from being a whole person.

A.A. meetings are far more than just meetings. They are sessions where lies and fraud are passed off as holy wisdom and a cure for a deadly problem. In particular, Bill Wilson's lies and fraud. From the moment you recite Bill's words, "RARELY have we seen..." it is a stream of lies and logical fallacies and propaganda tricks, not helpful advice on how to get sober.

Bill Wilson was far more than just "flawed", he was a psychopath who didn't care how many people he hurt in his pursuit of praise, wealth, sex, and self-glorification. Bill Wilson had no problem with lying and pushing Frank Buchman's cult religion as a never-fails "solution" to the problem of alcohol abuse, in spite of the fact that he had many years of experience in seeing it fail to help.

I do not misunderstand the "powerless" idea. You are trying to reinterpret Step One and make it say things that it does not say — which is typical of how Steppers are constantly trying to rewrite the Steps and make them into something more than what they are. That's why there are so many books that supposedly explain the Steps. Step One says:

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol, that our lives had become unmanageable.

That's it. Step One does not say one word about us being powerless over people, places, or things, just alcohol.

Lastly, I have found what I was looking for. I have 10 years of sobriety now, and I thank God that I don't have to go to any cult religion meetings to stay sober.

So why are you still going to A.A. meetings? Have you still not found what you need?

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Foisting ineffective quack medicine on sick people is not
**     a wonderful noble act of self-sacrifice to help others;
**     it is the reprehensible behavior of a damned fool.

[The next letter from Max is here.]

Date: Fri, March 18, 2011 6:22 am     (answered 24 March 2011)
From: "carol s."
Subject: May God Bless You

You are so far from the truth, but more importantly a very arrogant and mean spirited berson. I pray for your soul.

You have a good day too, Carol.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**         We hardly find any persons of good sense save those
**           who agree with with us.
**             ==  François, duc de La Rochefoucauld (1613—1680)

Date: Fri, March 18, 2011 11:00 am     (answered 24 March 2011)
From: "D Max"
Subject: Wonderful Site


I recently became involved with an "wilson follower" of 18 months. At first, I didnt think it was going to be an issue. As time progressed, I noticed that she was using many catch phrases with me. She had also wanted me to read a couple of alanon books that she had. At one point, she had played a cruel joke on me and when it upset me she said I needed to take responsibility for my own reaction to it. I found this not only cruel, but odd. I saw the example you had of when someone hurts you, you need to figure out what you did wrong. I downloaded the 12 12 book, and it was plain as day. I started researching and found many of the hurtful things that she was saying to me were from the book. She denies to this day that they were from the book though. I will not read the alanon books because it is hurtful to see the brainwashing she has gone through.

I am a Christian and find the AA teachings to be very non-Christian.

Your web page has helped me a great deal in learning what to look for as far as protecting myself from the AA cult. I'm not sure if you are just one person doing this wonderful eye opening research or if there are any, LOL I hate to use the word "groups", or places to help expose the cult. This cult has turned what could have been a wonderful relationship between 2 people in to another statistic of how the teachings break relationships apart.

Any more information would be much appreciated

D Max

Hello D Max,

Thank you for the letter and thanks for the compliments. I'm sorry to hear about the troubles you are going through. I hate to say it, but it does sound familiar.

About your question — there is just me, one person, writing this web site. I have friends and acquaintances who send me things, but it is basically just me, working on getting the truth out.

About more information: several things come to mind:

  1. There are many groups and forums that are devoted to exposing the truth about the recovery industry fraud. I just published the list again in a previous letter, here. Some of the items on that list are various methods for recovery from addiction problems, and some are just forums for people to communicate and commiserate. All of them are good places to talk to other people and share experiences and information.

  2. For more information about cults and cult characterisistics, see The Cult Test.

  3. Then, see the links page for many more pointers to other information.

  4. Then of course there is all of the rest of this web site.

I agree that the A.A. teachings are very non-Christian. I wrote a web page about that: The Heresy of the Twelve Steps.

Have a good day now, and good luck.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity,
**     and I'm not sure about the former.
**           ==   Albert Einstein  (1879—1955)

Date: Sat, April 23, 2011 6:14 pm     (answered 30 April 2011)
From: "D Max"
Subject: RE: Wonderful Site

Mr. Orange,

This means very much to me. I am so thankful that your site is out there. The research seems unmeasurable and a quality service to society. Keep up the wonderful work!


Hi again Derek,

Thanks for the thanks, and have a good day now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*       http://www.Orange-Papers.org/forum/   *
**     If this was easy it wouldn't be so hard.
**         Yogi Berra (1925 — )

Date: Sat, March 19, 2011 1:10 am     (answered 24 March 2011)
From: "Wayne S."
Subject: "AA Cult"

AA is certainly not a cult. It has no fees or official membership lists and no requirements at all, other than a desire to quit drinking. The 12 steps are suggested only. No one lives in a compound, is required to give money or allegiance or to believe anything. AA is actually the quintessential democratic American institution.

You seem to have much knowledge of AA, yet you don't seem to know these most basic facts about AA. And you have a real resentment against Buchman. You are probably a jealous, hateful, destructive and deceptive Jew — that is my best guess. But then you could be a crazed atheist, or maybe just an insecure mainstream Christian. But my best estimate is that you are the type of Jew as described above. Am I right?

Wayne S.

Hello Wayne,

Thanks for the letter. Your denial of the cult characteristics of A.A. doesn't hold much water.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator.
**     By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord's work.
**       ==  Adolph Hitler, Speech, Reichstag, 1936

Date: Sun, April 24, 2011 12:20 am
From: "Wayne S."
Subject: Re: "AA Cult"

I will have a good day, thanks to AA.

May 20, 2009, Wednesday: Day 20, continued:

Beach scene with geese
The Beach Scene

[More gosling photos below, here.]

Date: Sat, March 19, 2011 10:31 am     (answered 24 March 2011)
From: T.
Subject: AA


Why do you care so much about AA?

If it does not work for you, don't go, simple as that.
For those that it does work for, great. (better than being a drunk, angry, afraid, etc.)

I would not waste my time bashing an organization that doesn't work for me (even though millions have found AA extremely useful).


Hello T.,

Why care so much about Alcoholics Anonymous? Because A.A. is a fraud that hurts millions. A.A. has taken over the majority of the treatment centers in the USA, where people get fed cult religion as a quack cure for drug and alcohol problems. That hurts people. That even kills them. Alcoholics Anonymous is the most successful cult and the biggest medical fraud in the USA. That's why I care.

The rest of your rationalization is all wrong, just a string of incorrect statements:

  1. It is not a matter of "If it doesn't work for you, don't go." People are being sentenced to A.A. meetings, and sick people who paid for "treatment" are being forced into A.A. meetings. That is a crime.

  2. A.A. does not "work for others". One of the leaders of A.A., Non-Alcoholic Trustee Dr. George E. Vaillant clearly proved that A.A. actually just raises the death rate in alcoholics, while not helping the alcoholics to get sober at all. And other doctors have also shown that A.A. does not work. In controlled tests, A.A. just raised the rate of binge drinking, and A.A. raised the rate of rearrests for drunkenness, and A.A. raised the cost of hospitalization of alcoholics.

  3. This is a piece of standard A.A. propaganda, completely untrue:

    millions have found AA extremely useful
    No, they haven't. A.A. doesn't even have 2 million members in the whole world. They have a few hundred thousand hard-core members, and the rest of the apparent membership is just churn: newcomers shoved, sucked, and coerced in, and newcomers gone a few months later. Look here for the details.

    And since A.A. raises the death rate in alcoholics, but not the sobriety rate, that is not "extremely useful" to "millions".

    The fact that a few hundred thousand people rave that they really love their cult religion and "find it helpful" does not make Alcoholics Anonymous a good organization. Scientology and the Moonies have a bunch of crazy members who say the same things too. Tom Cruise will jump up and down on the couch and tell you that Scientology knows more about the human mind than all of the doctors in the world. And Cruise will tell you that Scientology did Step Two for him — "restoring him to sanity". Tom will also tell you that Scientology has the only working cure for drug and alcohol problems — Scientology plus "Narconon" plus a "Toxic Rundown" Purification Treatment. The truth is, the Scientologists and the Steppers are both crazy, and neither have a working cure.

Have a good day.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Rev. Jim Jones said, "Drink the red koolaid. It
**     has cured millions. RARELY have we seen it fail...
**     But then again, the green koolaid is good too.
**     Take what you want, and leave the rest."

[The next letter from T is here.]

Date: Sat, January 22, 2011 6:30 pm     (answered 24 March 2011)
From: "Facebook"
Subject: Andrew W. shared a link on your Wall.

Funny episode of South Park if it hasn't been posted already.. Stan Marsh makes the cardinal error of saying that he's not going to D&D again..


South Park: Bloody Mary
Stan is embarrassed in front of his friends when his dad gets pulled over for drunk driving. In a neighboring town, a bleeding statue of Mary is discovered and the faithful are flocking to the site hoping to be healed. Stan's dad is sure the bleeding Virgin can cure him of his "disease."

Hi Andrew,

Thanks for the link. I didn't know that South Park had an official web site where they posted full episodes. Previously, you had to get bootleg copies from fan sites.

That particular episode is one of my favorites, of course. I love the spoof of A.A. — "Nobody is in charge. We are all powerless here." — "You have a disease." — "I would have quit long ago but for this damned disease. Bring me another beer." — "Make way, make way! Alcoholic coming through!"

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Gandalf said, "The little orks don't like
**     humor. They cringe in pain at the sound of
**     laughter. And they really can't stand it when
**     you poke fun at them. So they howl and growl
**     and scowl and get all bent out of shape."

Date: Thu, March 17, 2011 10:21 pm     (answered 21 March 2011)
From: "sober by choice"
Subject: Your Question on AA Trustee's Salary

Hi Terry, saw your question re the AA Trustee's salary on your site today. You referenced my "AA's Own Stats Show Slow Demise" on Stinkin-Thinkin.com in letters 216.

I served four years as a [deleted], attended four [deleted], and served on four [deleted]. I've been sober for 29+ plus years, but the [deleted] experience woke me up quickly that there was something not right in the AA picture: it was all show and churn.

Anyway, enough on my credentials to know the answer to your question: No, the trustees do not earn a salary at all. The Class A ones, who serve six years, and the Class B (the drunks), who serve four years, are all unpaid. However, all their AA-related expenses are paid, they dine very well in mid-town Manhattan at the regular and corporate board meetings (4 quarterly meetings for certain but monthly meetings for those who are serving on the AAWS or Grapevine boards), and are housed in the fairly cosmopolitan Crown Plaza Hotel at 49th and Broadway. They journey up to the Riverside Drive headquarters for the monthly meetings, but the quarterly ones are held at the hotel.

The general manager is well paid, around $250K I think. The number in the form 990 has to be doubled because the GM is paid from both the AAWS and General Service Board, one half from each. The rest of the top staff earn salaries in the $100K range, depending on tenure and have a good health plan and retirement plan. The remainder of the staff earn typically non-profit competitive wages for the NYC area. The retirement plan is a pension, not a 401K, but the plan is currently underfunded. That's one reason the game goes on: about 90 staff mouths to feed and a bunch of retirees who have the pension that has to be paid.

It has become increasingly difficult for AA to recruit the Class A folks. Vaillant was probably the last one (he had rotated from the board before I got there in 2005) many people had ever heard of, well, maybe his research partner, Dr. Bill Clark, but they have to hustle nowadays to find "names." Class B's, well, you know the story: Just grateful, so grateful, to be of service to God and AA and to get the tour of Stepping Stones each annual conference and to be able to touch Bill's papers in the Archives and such. It's certainly not a very awake bunch whichever class they are in. They are clearly presiding over an institution in serious decline and they don't have a clue what's wrong or how to fix it. God, of course, is in charge and he'll fix it if it needs fixing!

The current chair of the General Service Board, elected in 2009, is the Very Reverend Ward Ewing, Class A Trustee and just retired President, General Theological Seminary, NYC (Episcopal). So, finally a man of the cloth as the head.

You can identify me as "sober by choice," but leave out the email address and the reference to my serving on [deleted]. I don't need more emails from the trolls!

Always appreciate your letters and the material on your site.

"sober by choice"

Hi "sober by choice,",

Thank you for the information. Yes, Greg Muth gets $250,000 per year, half of it from the GSB and the other half from AAWS. The Form 990's reveal that. And the Form 990's don't list any salaries for the Trustees or Board of Directors, which is what got me wondering after someone asked me about salaries, and I got to searching for proof. Years ago, I read somewhere that the Trustees got $75,000 per year each, but that is pretty obviously wrong.

Investigating those Form 990's did yield some very interesting results, though:

  1. The Form 990 for 2004 stated that Lillianna Murphy, the EDP Manager, got $175,742 for the year. Well, Lillianna Murphy wrote to me after she found her name mentioned in my web site, and she said that she didn't get even half that much money. So who put the extra money in his pocket? And isn't filing false financial reports with the IRS a felony?

  2. While I was searching, I stumbled across something else very curious: Look at page 26 (page 24 of the PDF file) of the 2008 Form 990 for the General Service Board. (Local copy of file here: 2008-990GSBAA.pdf.) Some guy named Thomas Jasper is listed as a "Senior Advisor", and he was allegedly paid $417,459.00 reportable income plus $52,391.00 of "other compensation", apparently for one year of giving advice. Yes, being a "Senior Advisor" to Greg Muth and the General Service Board for a year gets you nearly half a million dollars, almost double what the President and General Manager of A.A. Greg Muth gets. Oh really? I smell a rat. Is somebody looting the A.A. treasury? It sure looks like it.

    I wonder if Mr. Thomas Jasper reported that income to the IRS. Did he really get that money? Or is it a fake charge, like the money that Lillianna Murphy didn't get?

    [UPDATE: 2012.03.31: There is more information about Thomas Jasper and his huge going-away present here.]

    Heck, if Greg Muth wants an advisor, I'll happily follow him around and babble spiritual slogans at him for half a million dollars a year:

    • "A stitch in time saves nine."
    • "Honesty is the best policy."
    • "Not all that glitters is gold."
    • "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
    • "Put new batteries in your bullshit detector."
    • "My kharma just ran over your dogma."

    Yes, I can give advice for half a millions dollars a year.

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Lying is a hateful and accursed vice. We have no other tie
**     upon one another, but our word. If we did but discover the
**     horror and consequences of it, we should pursue it with fire
**     and sword, and more justly than other crimes.
**        ==  Michel E. de Montaigne (1533—1592), French essayist

[The previous letter from Bill_P is here.]

Date: Mon, March 21, 2011 8:26 pm     (answered 29 March 2011)
From: "Bill P."
Subject: Re: Finding Tom Powers

Thanks, Orange.

I stumbled upon the same page somehow. When I clicked on "This is what you start with" I was directed to
This page is lifted directly from Tom Powers the elder's book "Invitation to a Great Experiment: Exploring the Possibility that God can be Known" which is rework of his "First Questions.." book.

Even the photo looks like the same alarm clock as is in the "Invitation.." book. The other main difference between the two is the omission of the chapters in the later book in which Powers senior argues for an afterlife based on his study of the Bible, Rudolph Steiner, occult stories (occult as in spooky ghost stories not alchemical) and so on. What I really like about both books is the graded reading list Powers provides.

As to the AAA program, I'll have to do some more reading. I still like Powers' "First Questions..." book. It came into my life when I needed some some spiritual direction. Religion wasn't doing it and neither was vast amounts of reading and study. I have moved on since then.

These last two weeks in Japan have kept me in a constant state of watchfulness and preparedness. You never know when and where the earthquake or tsunami will strike. Gas and food have been in short supply but those items are slowly showing up in the Tokyo area.


Bill in Tokyo

Hi again, Bill,

I'll have to check out those books. Thanks for the references. More grist for the mill.

So you are in Tokyo, huh? That's a great place to be if you want excitement and a news story and to be part of history, but a rotten place to be if you want a normal, quiet, peaceful life.

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     If we heard it said of Orientals that they habitually drank a
**     liquor which went to their heads, deprived them of reason and
**     made them vomit, we should say, "How very barbarous!"
**       ==  Jean de La Bruyère (1645—1696), French satirist. Caractères

[The previous letter from Gabrielle is here.]

Date: Mon, March 21, 2011 8:29 pm     (answered 29 March 2011)
From: "gabrielle g."
Subject: Re: Book Deadline questions!

Marc Fisher is the Washington Post reporter who covered it.

Hi again, Gabrielle,

Ah so. Now if I had a photographic memory, I would have remembered the names of all of the reporters.

Thanks again for the information about Carmen and her family.

You are welcome. Yes, she was so cute, and so much fun. A fellow who saw the story happen remarked that I saved her life. I felt like, "Yeh, but I got more out of it than she did." Having those beautiful little fluff-balls to take care of is a gift and a joy.

Don't go see "The Last Lions" unless you want to cry like a baby. It was so sad I woke up in tears. It's imperfect in many ways (starting with the script) but the footage is incredible. Not to mention the story itself.

Gabrielle G.

Okay, I'll check it out.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     I love these little people; and it is not a slight thing,
**     when they, who are so fresh from God, love us.
**         ==  Charles Dickens (1812—1870)

May 21, 2009, Thursday: Day 21:

Marina with Canada Geese
The Marina with Canada Geese

[The story of Carmen continues here.]

Date: Tue, March 22, 2011 4:47 am     (answered 29 March 2011)
From: "Jenn F"
Subject: Hello-in regards to your website


I read your website in regards to Bill Wilson and A.A. and felt inclined to write to you....

I really feel that you have fixed ideas and also are down right wrong about quite a few things on this website.

I was wondering are you a drunk? I mean that in a very serious way.... I mean if you are then I understand exactly why you made this web page, and I would understand exactly what you are trying to do (justify your delusions). But if you are not a alcoholic then I have a question for you, which is how can you possibly make a web site about a man, bashing him about smoking, and perhaps a mental disorder(are you a doctor?), and write, cite books and other useless information and theories about a disease that you do not have. As far as Bill Wilson his personal life, message of hope, the thousands of lives he saved, and the program of A.A.(which you failed to mention) It worked for me and continues to work for countless others. I just want to let you know that each and every person I know is spiritual in some way, I practice spiritual progress not perfection as did Bill Wilson. I hope with all that information you realize that no person in this world is perfect nor should they be held on standards like that. I am very concerned with your misconceptions and look forward to hearing from you. I hope by no means that this letter offended you the way your website offended me.

~Jenn F.

Hello Jenn,

Thanks for the letter.

I am not "a drunk" now. I used to be, but I have not had a drink or a drug or a cigarette in 10 years now, so I'm not a drunk any more. I've described all of that many times before. Look here: How did you get to where you are?

Now, to get down to brass tacks: You believe that I have written something wrong about Bill Wilson. What? Please be very specific. What did I say that is untrue, and where did you get your version of the truth?

I research very carefully, and most all of the damaging information about Bill Wilson actually comes from his own writings or official A.A. council-approved publications, and the rest of it comes from favorable biographies that were written by sympathetic friends like the Hazelden Foundation and Matthew J. Rafael and Robert Thomsen and Lois Wilson's secretary Francis Hartigan. (In fact, it is very hard — basically impossible — to find an unfavorable biography of Bill Wilson, because only A.A. insiders have bothered to write biographies of Bill Wilson.) Nevertheless, the truth is there for those who wish to find it.

See these books:

  1. The Alcoholics Anonymous "Big Book":
    • Alcoholics Anonymous, Third Edition, 1976,     published as "anonymous", but really written by William G. Wilson, Henry Parkhurst, Joe Worth, and 31 or more other people.
    • Alcoholics Anonymous, Fourth Edition, 2001,     published as "anonymous", but really written by William G. Wilson, Henry Parkhurst, Joe Worth, and many other people.

  2. Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions     written by William G. Wilson and Tom Powers, and other unnamed co-authors, published as "anonymous".

  3. Alcoholics Anonymous Comes Of Age     published as "anonymous", but really written by William G. Wilson

  4. 'PASS IT ON': The story of Bill Wilson and how the A.A. message reached the world     Authorship credited to 'anonymous'; actually written by A.A.W.S. staff.

  5. Bill W. My First 40 Years     'An Autobiography By The Cofounder of Alcoholics Anonymous'. This is Bill Wilson's alleged 'autobiography', supposedly published anonymously, but really assembled by Hazelden staff from a set of autobiographical audio tape recordings that Bill Wilson made before his death.

  6. As Bill Sees It On; The A.A. Way of Life... selected writings of A.A.'s co-founder

  7. Lois Remembers: Memoirs of the Co-Founder of Al-Anon and Wife of the Co-Founder of Alcoholics Anonymous

  8. The Soul of Sponsorship: The Friendship of Fr. Ed Dowling, S.J. and Bill Wilson in Letters

  9. Children Of The Healer: The Story of Dr. Bob's Kids     Bob Smith and Sue Smith Windows, As Told to Christine Brewer

  10. Grateful To Have Been There     Nell Wing

  11. Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers     A.A.W.S. staff

  12. Bill W.     Robert Thomsen

  13. Bill W. and Mr. Wilson — The Legend and Life of A.A.'s Cofounder     Matthew J. Raphael

  14. Bill W. A Biography of Alcoholics Anonymous Cofounder Bill Wilson     Francis Hartigan

  15. My Name Is Bill; Bill Wilson — His Life And The Creation Of Alcoholics Anonymous     Susan Cheever

Now, would you like to tell me what I wrote that is wrong? Please be very specific. And please explain how you have better sources of information than I do, and how you know more about Bill Wilson than I do?

And tell us what your sources of information are, so we can go read the stuff too. Oh, and please explain how those authors whom you favor knew what they were writing about, since I think I've already covered all of the best biographies by the A.A. insiders.

And since you feel that I am not qualified to diagnose a raving lunatic when I see one, how do you explain Bill Wilson's lying, thieving, philandering self-promotion and delusions of grandeur and obvious narcissism? And Bill raving about God and "Absolute Purity" and "Absolute Honesty" and "Absolute Unselfishness" and passing himself off as a messenger while using A.A. as a meat market, and stealing the copyright of the Big Book and lying about all of it? And passing off an old cult religion as a special cure — or "non-cure but solution" — to the deadly problem of alcohol addiction?

And you know, it takes a really special kind of creep to deceive hundreds of thousands of sick people in the name of God.

Have a good day.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
**       == The Bible, book of James, I, 15.

[The previous letter from Cindy is here.]

Date: Tue, March 22, 2011 6:45 am     (answered 29 March 2011)
From: Cindy R.
Subject: FW: Another one bites the dust.

Hi Orange.

Hope all is going great with you. Me not so much but this isn't about me.

Well in the end, she came back home after shelling out the 40,000 via others since she doesn't have it. What they did at this facility, was put her on a drug similar to methadone. When she left not on their schedule, they gave her a 2 day supply. She had to scramble because the drug isn't licensed here completely. [In Canada.] So she is now on the waiting list for Methadone while she takes the drug that was approved in Ontario but not yet in MB. Oh well, paying for that treatment, then getting put on meds while they could have easily de-toxed her themselves and now waiting for methadone. Sounds like a wonderful way to screw around if you have the money.

My sister who had a brain mess-up who was in A.A. but is now in some home waiting for surgery on her heels so she can get to a rehab and learn to walk again, says that many of the women who are married to lawyers and such spend thousands going away to rehabs. What a scam!!! Well at least Charlie Sheen called out A.A. he must have read your stuff.

Cindy R

Hi again, Cindy,

So it ended up in a $40,000 rip-off, huh? It sure is profitable to run treatment centers that sell 12-Step recovery to the suckers. And it's so easy because you don't have to cure anybody, or produce any good results at all.

I hope it works out okay for your friend and sister.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     The miserable have no other medicine,
**     But only hope.
**       ==  William Shakespeare (1564—1616),
**           Measure For Measure, Act III, Sc. I, line 2

[The previous letter from Steve_A is here.]

Date: Tue, March 22, 2011 5:46 am     (answered 29 March 2011)
From: "Steve A."
Subject: RE: AA

You have ignored the facts I gave you, just because I didn't show you on paper doesn't mean they are not facts I told you the facts and since you don't know what I've been through you will never understand. So I won't try again. But what I will say is this, I don't like you and your opinion very much because you don't care about me you only care that you prove your right. You think because you found something on the internet, it makes you right. Well if it means that much to you to argue with someone you don't know about a topic you have no experience on, then go right ahead and think your right if it makes you feel better. The fact is you just like to argue. If you really wanted me to listen to you it might help if you showed some compassion. I got angry because you were acting like another "hole with an opinion" I hope you're not! So let's start again, What's your name friend?,

Hello again, Steve,

I did not ignore any "facts" that you gave me, because you did not give me any facts. Your letters were just unsupported opinions, devoid of any actual facts. Here is your entire previous letter, and there is not a single fact in it, just cult dogma:

Because you are not a hopeless drunk you will never understand what I'm telling you. I did not heal myself the people that got sober before me taught me the tools I did not know before. I know you think your God's little messenger but your just another hole with an opinon.

  1. Claiming that I cannot understand how wonderful A.A. is because I'm not a "hopeless drunk" is not a fact. That is just a standard cult trick. Cults routinely claim that cult members know more than outsiders. The cult says that non-members just cannot understand how wonderful the cult is, and what a genius the founder is. You get the same thing from Scientologists and Moonies and Hari Krishnas and all of the other cults.

  2. The occult practices of Frank Buchman's strange religion are not "tools", they are just superstitious cult practices. Even contemporary clergy said so.

  3. I never claimed to be God's messenger. That was Bill Wilson's delusion of grandeur, not mine. I don't rave about walking hand in hand with the Spirit of the Universe on the Broad Highway in the sky. (See the Big Book, pages 52 and 75.)

Likewise, your first letter did not contain any facts, either:

I can tell you have never been a part of the 12 step program. Your whole intent is to put a spin on it. You may think you know what talking about but you don't. This program is not about getting people to heaven it is about keeping them out of hell on earth. Whatever it's origins are I don't care. Frankly you could use some help yourself with your religious bitterness .

My life was saved by this 12 step program asshole!

Stating that you don't care that the 12-Step program is actually the practices of an old pro-Nazi cult religion does not explain away the many problems with Bill Wilson's crazy religion, or its failure to cure alcoholics.

Imagining that such a fascist cult religion cured you is an opinion, not a fact.

Now, do you have any real FACTS?

  • How about the A.A. cure rate? If we send 1000 randomly-chosen alcoholics to A.A., how many of them will be clean and sober a year later? Look here. And Look here.

  • What rate of binge drinking does A.A. produce? Look here.

  • What is the A.A. death rate? Look here.

  • What is the A.A. divorce rate? Look here.

Have a good day.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Everybody is entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts.
**        ==  Senator Patrick Moynahan

[The next letter from Steve_A is here.]

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