Date: Sat, June 24, 2006 03:51
From: "gwen r."
Subject: incorrect information
Reguarding your website
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult_a5.html
No place in any literature of Alcoholics Anonymous does the phrase "you
must" appear. If this page is a joke I have not yet seen the punch
line. If it is for real more research is required as your information
is not accurate in the least.
Have a wonderful day
Hello Gwen,
-
We are not cured of alcoholism. What we have is a daily reprieve
contingent on the maintenance of our spiritual condition. Every day
is a day when we must
carry the vision of God's will into all of our
daily activities.
The Big Book, 3rd edition, William G. Wilson,
Into Action, page 85.
Just where did that "vision" come from? Prayer, meditation,
belladonna,
delirium tremens,
LSD, or delusions of grandeur?
-
I must
turn in all things to the Father of Light who presides over us all.
The Big Book, 3rd edition, William G. Wilson,
Chapter 1, Bill's Story, page 14.
-
But after a while we had to face the fact that we
must
find a spiritual basis of life or else.
The Big Book, 3rd edition, William G. Wilson,
Chapter 4, We Agnostics, page 44.
-
Above everything, we alcoholics must
be rid of this selfishness.
We must, or it kills us!
The Big Book, 3rd edition, William G. Wilson,
How It Works, Chapter 5, page 62.
-
Whatever our ideal turns out to be, we must
be willing to grow
toward it. We must
be willing to make amends where we have done
harm, provided that we do not bring about still more harm in so doing.
The Big Book, 3rd edition, William G. Wilson, Chapter 5, How It Works, page 69.
-
We must
be entirely honest with somebody if we expect to live
long or happily in this world.
Rightly and naturally, we think well before we choose the person
or persons with whom to take this intimate and confidential step.
Those of us belonging to a religious denomination which requires
confession must,
and of course, will want to go to the properly
appointed authority whose duty it is to receive it.
The Big Book, 3rd edition, William G. Wilson, Chapter 6, Into Action, pages 73-74.
You MUST do Step 5, and confess everything to somebody else, and
wallow in guilt and self-contempt.
-
To some extent we have become God-conscious. We have begun to develop
this vital sixth sense. But we must
go further and that means more action.
Step Eleven suggests prayer and meditation. ...
The Big Book, 3rd edition, William G. Wilson,
Chapter 6, Into Action, page 85.
Yes, you MUST pray and meditate until you hallucinate, and hear
voices in your head, and start talking to dead people,
like Bill Wilson did.
(Really, no joke.)
-
To be vital, faith must
be accompanied by self sacrifice and
unselfish, constructive action.
The Big Book, 3rd edition, William G. Wilson,
Chapter 7, Working With Others, page 93.
Yes, you MUST go recruiting yet again...
Need I continue?
That is just the tip of the iceberg. There are lots more.
See the file on
the Bait and Switch stunts of A.A.,
particularly:
"First they tell you that
"There are no 'MUSTS' in Alcoholics Anonymous, only
suggestions", but then they will tell you that there are
many necessities and musts."
-- Like you must work a strong program or else you will die.
Oh well, have a good day anyway.
== Orange
* Agent Orange *
* orange@orange-papers.org *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ *
** "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God
** who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect
** has intended us to forgo their use."
** -- Galileo Galilei
[2nd letter from Gwen:]
Date: Sun, June 25, 2006 18:07
From: "Gwen"
Subject: Re: incorrect information
Well, I guess I stand corrected. My apologies.
Gwen R.
Hi again Gwen,
That's okay. The problem with A.A. meetings is that some people will tell
you a lot of stuff like that which is just not true at all -- like the slogan
"There aren't any 'musts' in this program, but there are a lot of 'you betters'.."
Oh well, have a good day anyway.
== Orange
* Agent Orange *
* orange@orange-papers.org *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ *
** "To see what is in front of one's nose needs a
** constant struggle" -- George Orwell
Date: Sat, June 24, 2006 05:19
From: "Lulu in U.K."
Subject: Thanks mate
Hello
I have been feeling that I must be mad. I feel like I am the only one
who is admitting that the emperor has no clothes on if you catch my
drift. I have been in AA for two years and I don't believe in God. I
did a chair the other day to that effect and was criticised. I started
to doubt myself. Luckily I have the strength of mind to resist. Some
don't.
Hello Louise,
Thank you for the letter, and thanks for the compliments.
Your site has helped me to get a better perspective away from the AA
propaganda and it's perpetuators. I always had a feeling that the
teachings of AA were more than just suggestions. A lot of those that I
hear in AA make it seem that they are requirements.
Correct. Coincidentally,
the letter than came in immediately before yours
was about just that --
although the correspondent was denying that there are any "musts" in Alcoholics Anonymous.
That is nonsense. There are lots of them, including statements that you Must work
a strong program or else you will die.
I went silent and suffered. I felt I could not share the AA line and so
was not allowed to share at all. I didn't want to be judged and
criticised. Now I feel that it might be my duty to. I do, however,
feel that it will fall on deaf ears and be resisted. Perhaps it would
be better to just leave.
Perhaps so.
But there is the lingering fear of exit from AA. There are times when I
have felt that I needed it when going through rougher patches. It
scares you into thinking that your life will fall apart if you leave.
Recently I have started attending Adult Children of Alcoholics and
although it has the 12 steps at it's core, it isn't as dogmatic and I
can actually talk about the underlying cause of my unhappiness and not
just "the solution". It seems that AA is saying that if you pray,
believe in God and learn how to regurgitate the right things and phrases
then you will be well. I feel that there is a lot more to it than that.
Agreed -- there is more to it. By the way, that lingering fear is normal --
A.A. routinely implants fears and phobias in its members,
as do most cults. Cults keep their members in the organization by convincing
them that
something horrible will happen to them
if they ever leave the cult.
Anyway, I have barely begun reading your site, so much there to take
in. I thank you for opening up my world, getting me to see that I was
partially addicted to AA. I may as well have been drunk. It seems that
it helps for a while just to focus you off the drink but unless you are
prepared to go super religious after a while, and con your brain into
peace and serenity on a false premise, then AA isn't helpful.
It just teaches you to be an ignorant parrot....
LuLu UK
I have occasionally suggested
to other people
that they quit A.A. slowly,
kind of detox and go through the cult withdrawal slowly, so that they
can see that the sky isn't falling as they attend fewer and fewer
meetings. That also gives you time to build up a different social circle so that you
are not just suddenly alone.
And you might be able to get some support and companionship from alternative groups.
There is a list of alternatives
here, including Internet chat groups and message
boards.
Have a good day and a good life.
== Orange
* Agent Orange *
* orange@orange-papers.org *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ *
** Being surrounded by a group of people who keep
** telling you that you are powerless over alcohol,
** and that your will power is useless, is not
** getting "support". It is getting sabotaged.
** With friends like them, you don't need any enemies.
Date: Sat, June 24, 2006 16:10
From: "Mr. A J W."
Subject: More from the Wolf in the UK
Hi Orange,
About three months without a meeting now and, what do you know, I have
not died, drunk or gone mad. I still want to write you the big E Mail of
my full story some time, but not now. I do think about some things more
than others when I remember my 15 years of continuous sobriety in AA.
"AA is a bridge to normal living." What's normal about feeling obliged
on pain of death to pray morning and evening, to take continuous moral
inventory, attend meetings, be in service, help newcomers, etc.? It
never seemed very normal to me.
In AA we have a spiritual experience which stops us ever having to drink
again. Then why do people ask to be kept sober every morning? Why does
it wear off every night? What sort of omnipotent God heals you, but only
until you go to sleep. Even those who believe in faith healing don't
think it wears off while you are asleep! I am sure I originally read
this point on your site but I can't get over how I swallowed the baloney
for all those years.
"You have to go to meetings to hear about what happens to people who
don't go to meetings." This suggests that only people who go to meetings
get drunk again. But I knew countless people over the years who relapsed
despite being regular attenders of meetings, some of them many, many
years sober. And I only heard about what had happened to people who had
stopped coming to meetings if it was bad, which was actually quite rare.
Maybe, like me, they're just too polite to come back and say, "Actually
guys, it's fine out here." Why did I as a true believing Stepper so
readily swallow the idea that anyone who disappeared from meetings had
drunk again and/or gone mad and/or died? Cult brainwashing, that's why.
And, if I did not mention it in my first E Mail, loads of people
claiming to be sober in AA, here in the UK anyway, are using drugs,
prescription or illegal. Some even share openly about it in meetings.
The person who ripped me off was even elected secretary of a group weeks
after coming back from a spell smoking dope. It got too complicated
trying to work out who really needed medication and who was just too
soft to work the Steps and take the pain. Now I am no longer a Stepper I
can see how many people with undiagnosed mental illnesses getting no
help from the steps were probably right to take the medication. They
weren't soft. They were being tricked. How I took the pain myself, I
will never know.
AA is meant to be about getting rid of ego but the most prominent group
members were often highly egotistical. They had their way of doing the
steps (often denying the usefulness of any literature apart from pages
1-164 of the Big Book) and usually shared in a powerful and dramatic way
in meetings. Sometimes they were feuding with each other, trying to be
the most sober person in that group or even area. Looking back, it is
funny, competing to be top of the sobriety tree. I flipped out once
because someone from the UK GSO in York was given a privileged place in
a meeting and treated like a celebrity. But then, in time, I fell into
the AA way of thinking and
looked in AA for things like respect, status, responsibility, that I
should have been looking for in my career and the community.
When I was living with my last girlfriend before I met my wife and got
married, I took her to a meeting to bring us closer together. She sat
there with tears rolling down her cheeks and we eventually broke up. Now
I think I know why she was crying. At the time, I just looked down on
her for not realizing how wonderful we AAs were.
Keep up the good work. My baby son loves ducks too and now says "quack,
quack" to them. You guys must have something in common.
The Wolf
Hi again Wolf,
Wow. Thanks for a moving letter. The girlfriend crying in the meeting really hits right
in the gut.
So sad, and so true.
Oh, and congratulations on your newfound freedom.
Have a good day, and a good life. And it's too bad your son can't see the little geese here.
They are just so cute.
== Orange
* Agent Orange *
* orange@orange-papers.org *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ *
** Being surrounded by a group of people who keep
** telling you that you are powerless over alcohol,
** and that your will power is useless, is not
** getting "support". It is getting sabotaged.
** With friends like them, you don't need any enemies.
Date: Sat, June 24, 2006 17:39
From: "Robert M."
Subject: Only a alcoholic would go to this length to prove something,
welcome orange I'll save ya a seat!
I to was sent to AA through the courts and after running from AA like
YOU did I returned and followed the steps with help from a sponsor. I
am currently sober for almost 9 months and I believe if I can stay
spiritually fit I will remain this way for life. I have seen people go
in and out of AA this is true but a core group always stays without whom
AA would die off but it grows and has remained since 1939. Anyone can
attend a open meeting how about leaving it up to the people to attend
and they can judge for themselves.
Bob "cult member" LOL!!!!!
Hello Bob,
Thanks for the letter, and congratulations on your 9 months of sobriety.
You are repeating an untrue stereotype of "The Alcoholic" in your title line.
There is no such thing as "the standard alcoholic" who is driven
to go to great lengths to prove something.
That is just more of the standard A.A. indoctrination.
See the file on
The Us Stupid Drunks Conspiracy
for more of that same stereotype.
So you now have 9 months of being indoctrinated into Alcoholics Anonymous, and you have become
a true believer. I won't even bother to mention how many years I have been sober. I will just
point you to
the letter that just came in
immediately before yours, from a fellow who has
15 years of continuous sobriety in Alcoholics Anonymous,
and he says that it is a cult and he is quitting it.
Have a good day.
== Orange
* Agent Orange *
* orange@orange-papers.org *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ *
** And the believers spake unto me, and they saeth,
** "If you want what we have, and are willing to go to
** any length to get it, then, here, drink this koolaid."
Date: Sat, June 24, 2006 23:19
From: "|<"
Subject: OMG
Wow, read a lot on your web site.
There's really NOTHING I disagree with.
I am a physician with no history of drug abuse other
than a short period of "self medicating" after the
loss of my wife to cancer.
Without going into details, I took this loss very hard
and made a poor decision etc....
I self reported the "self medicatiing" to the local
diversion board.....
BAM!!! -- I screwed myself
The medical diversion boards are nothing but AA cult
recruiters with considerable power.
Want to keep your license?? DO EXACTLY WHAT WE SAY and
swallow the AA religion COMPLETELY.
These diversion boards are also in bed with several
treatment centers.... unbelieveable!
When I was at my lowest they almost recruited me...
As I gained my strength I decided not to become a
BRAIN DEAD IDIOT and moved rapidly away from the CULT.
But here's the rub -- I want to keep my license -- so I
LIE to the board that I am accepting their religion.
I tried to be honest with them and told them that
several things were not sitting well with me......
........ I got assigned more mandatory meetings and
more service work. WTF -- honesty my ass
As if random UA's are not enough I gotta swallow this
CRAP for several more years.
I am going to seek legal advice.
By the way:
I have recovered from my "problem" I am NOT in recovery
I am NOT powerless
I am NOT an addict
I am NOT chemically dependent
The AA cult is shear LUNACY
Thanks for confirming what I was already thinking.
Anything you need just drop me a line
Kindly,
In Denial lololololololololo
Hello "|<",
Thank you for the letter, and the compliments. I would definitely get a lawyer involved.
A state-enforced cult religion that sells quackery is so blatantly illegal and unConstitutional
that it is almost beyond belief -- and yet it is the reality that we have now.
It is a shame that
the popular TV show ER glossed over all of those issues when
Dr. Carter had his pill problem. They acted like
"go to a meeting" was the answer to Dr. Carter's
drug problem, and Nurse Abby's alcohol problem too.
They implied that the "diversion program" that Carter went into
was a good thing -- and that it really worked.
That is quackery, pure quackery, no more scientific or medical than
selling snake oil elixirs.
I can only guess that some more hidden Stepper propagandists are on the staff of writers for the show.
Oh well, have a good day anyway. And as far as support goes, donations never hurt.
There is always something to fix. Thanks.
== Orange
* Agent Orange *
* orange@orange-papers.org *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ *
** Foisting ineffective quack medicine on sick people is not
** a wonderful noble act of self-sacrifice to help others;
** it is the reprehensible behavior of a damned fool.
[2nd letter from ]
Date: Tue, July 11, 2006 7:43 pm
From: "|<"
Subject: Re: OMG
Many, many thanks for all the work you have done.
I am still dealing with the utter madness surrounding
my situation.
I plan on writing you an update to add to your web
page letters.
I am curious if you can help me with this:
I need to find as many sound articles and research re:
(in)effectivness of AA etc....
I want to collect anything I can find and do my best
to get out of the mandated AA cult religion.
As you state, the truth cannot be denied. And I am up
against some of the strongest, most devout cult
members there are.
Not only do they hold the license's of many
physicians, they continue to send them straight to
Hazelden -- ALL OF THEM. (possibly some other 12 step
indoctrination facility)
... turns my stomach
I have sooooo much to say on this subject that I
decided to start a book on my experience. Intended to
be therapuetic, but I hope to share with others
someday.
Any help would be appreciated. I realize that you
reference several papers, but do you have them
organized in attachment you might send me?
Also which books might be good for my "defense"?
Any -- any -- help would be greatly appreciated.
I use this metaphor at times in reference to my
situation:
Let's say I went to prison. I could make things much
easier on myself if I just stop struggling and let
Bubba sodomize me...... but I'd rather fight and die
trying.
I am actually serious about that. I am willing to lose
my license over accepting this brain dead cult.
That really would be a shame. And what would they have to say?
"He just couldn't get the program"
"He was just an angry man"
"He couldn't handle being around drugs again so he decided not to practice"
"It was his choice, it's a simple program for those who can..."
What a bunch of BS.
I joke with my friends that the #1 reason I stay sober is out of spite for the AA cult.
I am going on and on, sorry, but I DO get angry at
this new parasite on my back.
BTW I read your pages every day. It helps me deal with
these lunatics.
I do find it astounding when they perform right on cue
using all the various cult tactics, propaganda and
debating techniques when confronted even the tiniest
bit.
I hope to share those with you soon. You will get a
kick out of it especially seeing that these are full
blown phsychiatrists.... unbelievable..... the brain
washing is insidious and runs so friggin deep.
Be well, hope to hear from you soon.
Xenu
(sorry had to do that, I went to the scientology
website and had the biggest laughs of my life OMG so
friggin funny)
Hi again,
Yes, I have some stuff. See the file on
"The Effectiveness
of the 12-Step Treatment", which contains listings of all of the valid
randomized longitudinal controlled studies of A.A. ever done. Particularly see:
-
Dr. Brandsma found that
A.A. increased the rate of binge drinking in alcoholics.
-
Dr. Ditman found that A.A.
increased the rate of rearrests for public drunkenness.
-
Dr. Walsh found that
"free A.A." made later hospitalization more expensive.
-
Doctors Orford and Edwards
found that having a doctor talk to the patient for just one hour,
telling him to quit drinking, was just as effective as a whole year of
A.A.-based treatment.
-
Dr. George E. Vaillant, who later
became a Professor of Psychology at Harvard University and a member of the Alcoholics
Anonymous Board of Trustees, found that A.A. treatment was completely ineffective and
just raised the death rate in alcoholics.
I have xeroxed copies of just about all of those articles. I can scan them into
my computer and email them to you.
For legal decisions, see
this short summary, here.
For the actual decisions, see Ken Ragge's web site. He has a bunch of files, here:
http://www.morerevealed.com/archives.jsp -- Archive of documents, including the legal
decisions that declared that A.A. was engaging in religious ceremonies,
and that sentencing someone to go to A.A. meetings was unconstitutional.
Have a good day, and good luck. Oh, by the way, I also stay sober because I'll be damned
if I'm going to give the A.A. nuts the satisfaction of me relapsing. Hell will freeze over
first.
== Orange
* orange@orange-papers.org *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ *
** From Scientology we learn that, "The evil Galactic
** Overlord Xenu did it. It's all his fault."
P.S.: I just got a copy of "Resisting 12-Step Coercion", by Stanton Peele and
Charles Bufe, but haven't had time to read (or reread) it yet. It might have a lot of useful
information.
I also see that it is available for downloading at:
http://www.morerevealed.com/library.jsp
Date: Sun, June 25, 2006 01:21
From: "Michael J."
Subject: More Crazy Spiritual Dogma
Read this page and see how it tries to suck the reader in like the big book
My thoughts; God this sounds like bill willson's bullshit.
http://www.kabbalah.com/k/index.php/p=zohar
Bait and Switch, irrelevant concusion, sly suggestion, abstract
meaning... just like AA. The zohar comes from kabballa styles. The big
book resembles kabballa style diversions. Same style, used slander
Christ and divert from Hebrew teaching by using God name to gain
confidence in the reader.
Hmmm, 12 steps, 12 months in a year. What do we do on the 12th month of
the year?
12th Step
I swear to pass the message of recovery as a result of my spiritual
experience to the addict in recovery.
12 month
On the 12 month of the year I pass the message of Christ to my brothers
and celebrate the Holy Spirit.
Get my point?
This stuff makes me pretty ill.
Have a great day,
Mike
Hi Mike,
Thanks for the letter. I was not aware of the parallels there.
Somehow, I am not surprised though.
When I started
studying cults,
I noticed that there were a lot of common threads that ran through all of
them. You just mentioned several of them.
And I noticed another: "Sacred Science":
Kabbalah was and continues to be the original technology of life. It's the science of the soul
and the physics (and metaphysics) of fulfillment.
http://www.kabbalah.com/courses/course_signup.html
Cults constantly misuse the words "science" and "technology".
Religious doctrines are actually the exact opposite of science. Science is a process of learning
what the truth is by observing reality and seeing what is really happening in front of your face,
and then testing your ideas with experiments to
see if they are really true.
People who pore over ancient scrolls, "seeking to find the secrets of the
universe", don't do that.
And then there is:
Suppose there was a universal wisdom, one singular seed that was the
origin of all teachings -- a body of knowledge that could reveal the
spiritual and physical laws that govern the entire cosmos. What if it
could account for and explain every emotion and desire that stirs within
you? Suppose it could clarify and resolve all the problems that burden
you at this very moment?
What if it could explain all the eruptions that occur in our universe
the birth of a new star exploding into existence... to the explosive
arguments that erupt in your life?
http://www.kabbalah.com/sk101/01b.html
That is, of course, the cult characteristic
"We have the Panacea",
put forward with the propaganda trick of
"Sly Suggestions" --
"What if we have the answer to the universe?"
(Well, what if you don't?)
But this is the best so far:
Impressive statements.
But don't believe it for a second.
Not one word. ...
BELIEF WON'T CUT IT ... SO TEST EVERYTHING THAT YOU LEARN. EVERYTHING.
http://www.kabbalah.com/sk101/02.html
And that is called
"Reversal of Reality",
another common cult characteristic.
SCIENCE, NOT SORCERY
Is Kabbalah mysticism?
Hardly. What was once considered mysticism is now called science.
As the renowned writer Arthur C. Clarke put it, Any sufficiently advanced
technology is indistinguishable from magic.
http://www.kabbalah.com/sk101/03.html
Again, they misuse the word science, and make a patently false statement:
"What was once considered mysticism is now called science."
That isn't true at all.
Now Arthur C. Clarke's statement is true, but he was talking about modern astronauts showing
their instruments and tools to primitive natives who could not begin to comprehend electricity,
transistors, and microcomputers.
And it goes on and on. It just goes to show that P. T. Barnum was right:
"There's a sucker born every minute."
Oh well, have a good day anyway.
== Orange
* Agent Orange *
* orange@orange-papers.org *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ *
** And the believers spake unto me, and they saeth,
** "If you want what we have, and are willing to go to
** any length to get it, then, here, drink this koolaid."
[2nd letter from Michael:]
Date: Mon, June 26, 2006 13:54
From: "Michael J."
Subject: Re: More Crazy Spiritual Dogma
Thanks orange, I found some more interesting stuff for ya. I almost have
the big books roots traced back to early kabballa and satanic cult roots.
Pretty Scary Stuff to say the least.
Here is a couple keys for ya. I'll send you my research when I link
everything together that make logical sense.
http://www.google.com/search?q=Oxford+Golden+Dawn+Occult+Society&start=0
&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official
http://www.google.com/search?hs=WGI&hl=en&lr=&client=firefox-a
&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=Aleister+Crowley+AA+Silver+Star+Oxford
&btnG=Search
Peace,
MC
Okay Michael,
More homework and things to check out.
An interesting parallel question is,
"What else did Frank Buchman take from occult sources, besides the idea that you can
conduct a séance and
hear the Voice of God sending you messages which you should
then write down."
(Ideas which Bill Wilson then copied...)
We know that Oxford Groupers were into contacting the spirits of the dead.
Their occult contacts were not
limited to just God and Jesus.
Have a good day.
== Orange
* Agent Orange *
* orange@orange-papers.org *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ *
** Those who can make you believe absurdities can make
** you commit atrocities. == Voltaire (1694-1778)
Date: Mon, June 26, 2006 00:30
From: chaz
Subject: Your reading list
Hi,
I was just glancing through your reading list. First, thanks for listing most of
the See Sharp alcohol-related books.
Regarding your list of books on cults, I noticed that you listed the Olin book
on Synanon. It greatly downplays the negative aspects of that cult, and is
really a pretty lousy book. A much more informed insider's view -- and the real
dirt -- can be found in "Paradise Incorporated: Synanon," by David U. Gerstel
(Novato, CA: Presidio Press, 1982), which as a bonus is much better written
than the Olin book.
Best regards,
Chaz
P.S. I think the above bibliographical info is correct, but I don't have the
book immediately at hand.
Hi Chaz,
It's a pleasure to hear from you. You had a big influence on my life, you know.
As I said in
the introduction to my web site,
I found your book A.A.: Cult or Cure?
in the library and devoured it. It blew away a lot of my illusions about
Alcoholics Anonymous. It was like the straw that broke the camel's back.
Or, as I said in the introduction, "The dam burst, and a giant wall
of water swept across the landscape." (The mental landscape, that is.)
So thank you.
About William Olin, yes, I know that his book is flawed, and occasionally biased,
and not a complete history of Synanon.
And he downplayed some of the horrors of Synanon.
But oddly enough, I find that to also be one of its charms. It's like the impact of
understatement. That is, Olin tried so
hard to be a good cult member. He gave Synanon 10 years of his life, and his life
savings, and he worked as an architect for something like $25 per week for 10 years
to help Synanon.
He really believed in it, and then he really tried hard to continue to believe in
it. So his final disillusionment and departure were all the more moving and striking.
I quoted his exit story at length,
here.
And he did, in the end, find a number of the common characteristics of cults in Synanon.
Still, I'm interested in the book you mentioned. I'll check it out.
Oh, about the See Sharp books: I've listed all of the books that I've been able to read.
The ones that are not listed are the ones that I don't know about.
The ones that I have read are listed both in the bibliography and in my
"Top 10" list,
which really numbers more like 20.
Thanks again for your pioneering work. And have a good day.
== Orange
* Agent Orange *
* orange@orange-papers.org *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ *
** "AA certainly functions as a cult and systematically
** indoctrinates its members in ways common to cults the
** world over."
** "...in the absence of proven scientific efficacy,
** critics are legitimate in suggesting that mandated AA
** attendance may be criticized as a failure of proper
** separation between church and state."
** == A.A. Trustee Prof. Dr. George E. Vaillant,
** The Natural History Of Alcoholism Revisited, page 266.
Date: Mon, June 26, 2006 08:35
From: Jim H.
Dear Orange:
You know, I can't disagree with a single thing you say, yet I still have
this "gut feeling", against all logic, that A.A. can work. Wonder why
that is? Why this aura about A.A. among the general public? I can't
help but think that part of it is due to the way it is portrayed in
films and TV. i.e. always very favorably. One of the best works about
alcoholism is "The Days of Wine and Roses", both the original 1958
teleplay and the 1962 motion picture. And it is one big advertisement
for A.A. One leading film critic (I forget which one) complained that
is was "too reverant about A.A."
Just wondering,
Jim H.
Hello Jim,
I think you understand the situation. Alcoholics Anonymous has
an incredible propaganda mill
the keeps up a constant drum-beat of proclamations that "It Works!"
We are only human. It's hard to not be influenced by it after a while.
And you are right about The Days of Wine and Roses. Although the thing that really
got me was the end of the movie. When the wife declared, "I just can't be that spiritual",
her husband just lets her walk out to her death. He doesn't even try to stop her or save
her. Say what??!
What kind of "unconditional love" was that?
What was he doing, letting her go "for the sake of his own sobriety"?
Oh well, have a good day anyway.
== Orange
* Agent Orange *
* orange@orange-papers.org *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ *
** "Through clever and constant application
** of propaganda, people can be made to see
** paradise as hell, and also the other way
** round, to consider the most wretched sort
** of life as paradise" -- Adolf Hitler
Date: Mon, June 26, 2006 13:14
From: HW
Subject:
Dear Orange:
I think that any person afflicted with substance abuse is in charge of
his/her own healing process.
No one else is in charge ---- "human beings are moral agents who make
choices".
That does not mean that the long uphill walk is done with travelling
companions. You are not alone -- unless you want to be.
I reject "recovery". The term has been contaminated with contingency by
the "recovery industry".
If one needs to put an end to substance abuse, one does so. Now and
forever. The human being -- a moral agent -- takes that decision.
Having done that, one may begin to address issues.
Does 12 step speak to those issues? Not for me. Now, I must ask, Am
I alone in that? I think not.
Is there any organization or person to travel with on this journey of
healing? Yes.
Is one alone? No.
Orange, you have laid out many of the options available.
For myself, my alcohol abuse had a start point. I decided -- with
premeditation and malice aforethought -- to get drunk. Every night.
Unfortunately -- or fortunately [ the issue is in doubt ] I did not
drink a enough wine to achieve a fatal case of alcoholic poisoning. I
did not drink for "fun". Also, I did not fall down the stairs and break
my neck.
Why did I stop? I decided to stop. I found that I had reasons to
live. So, a stop point.
So, I can describe when the abuse began; I can describe when it ended.
IMHO, this begs two questions:
To whom does AA speak?
To which questions does AA purport to answer?
The world wants to know.
For myself -- I have put my life -- which came to an end one black day [
1 Feb 2004] -- back together. I am as happy as I have made up my mind
to be.
Does AA speak to me? No.
I must say good things about SMART Recovery. The tools were good --
safe and effective -- and the folks online were very kind and thoughtful.
I found AA to be pathological and driven by dogma.
Regards:
HW
Hi again Howard,
Thanks for the letter, and I couldn't agree more. My story is just the same.
The doctor said, "Quit drinking or die. Choose one."
I thought it over for a month, and drank on it, and thought it over some more,
and then finally decided that I would rather live.
I just didn't want to die that way. (And then I quit smoking 3 weeks later for
the same reason. I was just sick and tired of being so sick and tired.)
I think that is what really happens with a lot of us. A.A. just fools some recovering
people into thinking that A.A. *made* them quit,
or that the 12 Steps somehow caused them to quit,
which is not true at all.
Oh well, have a good day and a great life.
== Orange
* Agent Orange *
* orange@orange-papers.org *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ *
** Pain (any pain -- emotional, physical, mental) has a message.
** The information it has about our life can be remarkably specific,
** but it usually falls into one of two categories: "We would be
** more alive if we did more of this," and, "Life would be more
** lovely if we did less of that." Once we get the pain's message,
** and follow its advice, the pain goes away.
** Peter McWilliams, Life 101
[another letter from Penelope. Her previous letters are
here.]
Date: Mon, June 26, 2006 15:32
From: "Penelope"
Subject: Re: hi orange
Orange, you certainly have conviction, I'll give you that!
Hi again, Penelope,
I not only have conviction, I have facts. They count for a lot more.
I do feel the program helps me stay clean from the dope -- I was not able
to do it without the help of NA, and today I can. For me, it has worked
so far.
But feelings are not facts. Isn't there an A.A. slogan about that?
And "IT" has not worked for you. You are
assuming a cause-and-effect relationship
where there is no evidence of any such causation.
People quit drinking because they get sick and tired of being sick and tired, not
because they join a cult religion.
To say that you couldn't "do it" before N.A., so that shows that N.A.
"helped you" to succeed, is an illogical statement.
It's like saying that when you were a child,
you could never ride a bicycle -- you always fell down -- until
you tried out Billy's bright red bicycle, and you succeeding in riding that one.
So shiny red bicycles are the cure for "bicycleism" --
"Hey, I was never able to ride a bicycle before.
I was powerless over bicycles.
I fell down every time I tried.
But with Billy's bicycle, I succeeded,
and I don't fall down any more. That is proof that Billy's bicycle is magical and really
works."
Quitting dope or drinking is a learning process. (Just like learning to ride a bicycle.)
You have to learn that you really,
REALLY want to quit and permanently change your lifestyle. Until then, you will backslide.
Once you learn beyond a shadow of a doubt that dope and drink
are killing you, and you really decide to quit them
and live a healthier lifestyle, it is easy.
That process has nothing to do with any 12-Step organization, or Bill Wilson's religion,
or endless meetings,
or Buchmanism, or listing and confessing your sins and wallowing in guilt,
or any of that malarkey.
I respect your position -- I'm sorry that others feel they need to cram
the 12 step philosophy down your throat -- "Attraction, not promotion" as
we say. There is nothing attractive about choking on someone's opinion
or way of life, that's for sure!
It isn't just forcing the 12-Step cult religion on other people, although that is a big
part of it. Alcoholics Anonymous and the 12-Step program are
inherently harmful
and
raise the death rate in alcoholics.
They even
drive some alcoholics to suicide.
OK -- I am off to go do an H&I presentation to the folks at the
county outpatient treatment clinic, ironically, so I'm gonna keep this
one short.
I don't know what an "H&I presentation" is.
Should I assume that you are promoting Alcoholics Anonymous and
Narcotics Anonymous by giving the clinic false success statistics or
false claims of success?
Just what success rate do you tell them? Do you also mention
the normal 5% per year rate of
spontaneous remission in alcoholics?
YOU have a good day, OK? I'll try to do the same!
Yes, you have a good day too.
== Orange
* Agent Orange *
* orange@orange-papers.org *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ *
** "Not only had we failed to alter the natural history of alcoholism,
** but our death rate of three percent a year was appalling."
** == Dr. George E. Vaillant, currently a member of the A.A. Board of
** Trustees, describing the treatment of alcoholism with Alcoholics
** Anonymous, in The Natural History of Alcoholism: Causes, Patterns,
** and Paths to Recovery, Harvard University Press, Cambridge, MA,
** 1983, pages 283-286.
Date: Mon, June 26, 2006 16:34
From: "Mike B."
Subject: fun with numbers
Hey,
I have just noticed something interesting which I don't recall ever
having seen mentioned anywhere before. At
www.midlandaa.org
they list membership history, book sales, and
book royalties according to aaws over the years. [Starting at page 53.]
It is at the end of
their history pages. Anyhow, pick a year, any year, say -- 1994. That
year, aa reported a US membership of 1,127,471 people. That same
year, they reported big book sales totalling 1,049,343 copies. Assuming
(very generously) each new and returning member that year ponied up
their cash and bought a brand new big book and that every remaining
member also bought one, we divide 1,127,471 people by 1,049,343 books
and then multiply that number by 12 months, we see that aa experiences a
100% turnover in membership every 12.89 months, based on my
unrealistically generous model.
Just one more proof-positive that aa works -- if selling books and
making money constitutes success.
Something else I have considered: If you are in the sheep business
and 95% of your sheep can't eat what you feed them and walk away, do
you:
- a) blame the sheep?
- b) feed them something else?
- c) wonder why you are in the sheep business?
- d) don't change a thing because the government and society just keep sending you fresh sheep?
Later,
Mike
Marion, Ohio
Hi. Thanks for your recent letter. I've been putting together my reply
and cannot find the actual statistics you referred to:
At www.midlandaa.org
they list membership history, book sales, and
book royalties according to aaws over the years. It is at the end of
their history pages. Anyhow, pick a year, any year, say--1994. That
year, aa reported a US membership of 1,127,471 people. That same
year, they reported big book sales totalling 1,049,343 copies.
I've been poking through the history index page and can't find it.
I have downloaded the entire web site, for archiving, so hopefully the
information should be in there somewhere.
Can you give me an exact URL for the actual web page where that stuff
appears?
Thanks.
[2nd letter from Mike:]
Sorry 'bout that. The full address is:
http://www.midlandaa.org/AA_Timeline_2004-04-01_Public%2004.pdf.
It starts with the year-by-year stuff down around page 52. If you have
never seen the big book sales figures for recent years, you will be
pretty much floored by the sheer numbers. Looking at those sales numbers,
it becomes abundantly clear why it is in AAWS absolutely refuses to turn
AA into something that could actually help people seeking recovery from
alcoholism. It is in their financial self-interest to keep the ineffective
dinosaur propped up as-is with people continually ordered in, buying their
books, putting a few bucks in the basket, and then moving on. A fresh
crop is right behind them and it wouldn't pay to have large numbers of
people recovering, taking up floor-space while we still have millions
of books to print and sell with a limitless supply of court slips to get
signed. When all the patients get well and take the cure to the masses,
the hospital will have outlived its purpose. Keep them sick, and keep
them coming back.
Keep up the good work. Your efforts are shaking them up.
Hi Mike,
Thanks for the tip. I didn't know about that web site. But I do now, and I am checking
out what they have.
The Big Book sales figures are very strange, aren't they? It looks like every
member buys a new copy of the book every year. Or else they have a heck of a lot of
newcomers buying a book and then walking out.
Or else the old-timer sponsors are buying a lot of copies for their sponsees, who then quit.
I find it curious that from 1987 to 1995, they sold over 1 million copies of the Big Book
per year, and then in 1996 it suddenly dropped to below a million, and declined for years
(pages 54-55).
It looks like the new edition may have been intended to boost sales of the book, because
that's what happened. Sales shot up from 899,000 in 2000 to 1,356,000 in 2001.
Everybody had to go out and buy a new copy of the book, since the old one was now obsolete.
Oh, and do you know what is really chilling? At the bottom of those pages, it says,
"Public Version". The whole file is
"A Narrative Timeline of A.A. History, Public Version".
Wow. Most cults hide the fact that they have
two versions of the truth
-- the sanitized white-washed happy-face public version that they tell to just anybody,
and the secret insiders' real truth that is revealed only to the innermost circle of
highest-ranking old-timers.
But A.A. openly labels their released documents "Public Version".
Wouldn't you love to get into the locked and sealed secret A.A. archives
and get the real truth version?
Oh well, have a good day anyway.
== Orange
* Agent Orange *
* orange@orange-papers.org *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ *
** 'After all, facts are facts, and although we may quote one
** to another with a chuckle the words of the Wise Statesman,
** "Lies - damn lies - and statistics," still there are some
** easy figures the simplest must understand, and the astutest
** cannot wriggle out of.'
** Leonard Henry Courtney, the British economist and politician
** (1832-1918), later Lord Courtney, New York, August 1895.
Date: Tue, June 27, 2006 10:29
From: "Joe C."
Subject: nice site...
Enjoyed some of the history about AA and its founders?
I have been going to AA for 4 years, and the good thing about it for me
was that I took a better look at myself. Don't know if I needed AA for
that but it helped.
I enjoy the meetings and the fellowships.
And I got a whole new concept of a higher power -- I call mine life.
Thanks again for putting out another side of the story.
Hi Joe,
Thanks for the thanks, and thanks for the compliments.
I agree that introspection and fellowship are good things, but I am sure that
there are much better ways to get them than in Alcoholics Anonymous.
There are many other not-so-good things that come along with the
fellowship and introspection, in a sort of unexplained package deal.
Some people are even driven to suicide by the constant
guilt induction and their sponsors telling them to stop taking
their doctor-prescribed medications.
Remember that
A.A. actually
raises the death rate in alcoholics.
You were lucky. Others were not.
You might like to check out some
SMART
meetings. You will also find fellowship and techniques for self-examination
and introspection there, without the cult religion and crazy dogma.
Have a good day.
* Agent Orange *
* orange@orange-papers.org *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ *
** The finest structure can house the worst evil.
More Letters
Previous Letters
Click Fruit for Menu
Last updated 25 June 2007.
The most recent version of this file can be found at
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters56.html
