Letters, We Get Mail, CCCLXXX
by Orange



[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters380.html#Michela ]

Date: Thu, December 12, 2013 2:48 pm     (answered 16 December 2013)
From: "Michela"
Subject: Thank you

Hi, thank you for your website. I have been sober for about eight months and I am going through a crisis. My psychologist whom I am seeing in secret as my former sponsor did not believe in them recommended I go to crisis treatment last week — I had been encouraged to stop taking my anti-depressants back in September by my AA group who does not consider it proper sobriety if one needs them. I went to the crisis center and called my sponsor who promptly told me I should leave, that i was a silly girl whose problems were all of my own making and if I would only stop being so selfish and arrogant and stop living by my ego i would get better. I am having a crisis of faith and it is arrogant of me to question god, if I believe hard enough and make myslef of service rather than whining I will get better. i was passively suicidal at this point. I got so confused and distressed that i checked myself out but my gut told me this was wrong. I started looking on the internet as for some reason i seem to have lost all ability to think for myself. I found your website and its like everything became clear, why I haven't been able to force myself to believe or work the steps adequately enough to feel relief. I have done everything that they ask and yet I'm not feeling better. I saw this as a defect of mine — I was trying hard enough, I didn't believe hard enough, it has been driving me slowly over the edge, but now I'm starting to think that it wasn't me that was the whole problem but the dogma I have been trying to force myself into that doesn't fit my anti-religious, questioning and thinking mindset. I'm now stuck, without AA I don't have friends or a support structure but I don't think i can keep going now I have read what you wrote and now I see the blatant issues in the program. Anyway I just wanted to say thanks, I hope I can find a way out.
M

Hello Michela,

Thank you for the letter. I'm sorry to hear about the suffering that you are going through.

You are quite right in seeing through the racket that the A.A. members were running on you. Telling you not to take your medications is reprehensible. They are not doctors, and they are not licensed to prescribe or proscribe medications. They are practicing medicine without a license, and they do not know what they are doing. They didn't go to medical school. Those dogmatic fools have killed a lot of people that way.

You are not defective. The 12 Steps just do not work. The crazy Steppers who tell you that they do are just parrotting the slogans of a cult religion.

And their insistence that you must believe is just standard cult religion. All of the cults say that you must believe, and if you don't believe what they say, then you are defective and egotistical and evil and unspiritual and selfish, ... and on and on. It's a very old racket. (The book The False Messiahs by Jack Gratus lists cults from 307 BC to 1921. It's a very old racket.)

I do hope, and I do think, that you can find another group of friends and "support structure". For starters, look at this list. Many of these organizations have meetings in a lot of cities, and most of them have online forums: http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-alt_list.html

And do not forget that you have a doctor or counselor who cares about you. Don't ignore him or her.

Also, consider finding a group of friends who have nothing to do with "recovery". It could be political, or social, or athletic, or a photography club, or a birdwatching club. Or maybe a yoga class or rock climbing or Outward Bound, or anything that promotes physical health and values it more than getting drunk. It could be anything. A.A. spreads the myth that you must spend the rest of your life in a "recovery organization", but that just isn't true.

Here are some other letters where we were talking about what to do with your life after quitting A.A.:

Have a good day now, and a good life. And Merry Christmas.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*       http://www.orange-papers.org/forum/   *
*
**     If alcoholism is really a disease, then A.A. sponsors are
**     guilty of practicing medicine without a license. They are
**     also guilty of treating a life-threatening illness without
**     having any medical education or training.  They have never
**     gone to medical school, and never done an internship or
**     residency, and yet they presume to be qualified to make
**     life-or-death decisions in the patients' treatment. That
**     is what you call quackery.
*
**     Buy a Hallmark Christmas card and help A.A. to rape underage girls.


AFTERTHOUGHT: 2017.10.23: While re-reading that letter, I noticed that I never answered this line: "I am having a crisis of faith and it is arrogant of me to question god,..."
How I wish I had picked up on that detail. I would have told her that A.A. does not speak for God, so questioning the practices and teachings of A.A. is not questioning God. A.A. has nothing to do with any real God. A.A. is a religion where you make up your own God, and worship Doorknob Almighty or Baal Bedpan or Magnificent Mountain or Awesome Ocean or Cool Cat or Polly Parakeet. Questioning such nonsense isn't having a crisis of faith in any Christian sense.





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters380.html#Bill_T ]

Date: Tue, December 10, 2013 7:35 pm     (answered 16 December 2013)
From: "Bill T."
Subject: Re: Censor

I agree on not censoring on the OPF. It is a matter of learning to be mindful of what you say yourself. In the rooms a lot of the time someone says something offensive or abusive and you do not even realize it is happening. Disbelief you may call it. But it is the conditioning and that you are there to get help that throws you off. Still a little voice in your head is saying, 'is this guy for real.' Sooner or later, you just leave. My experience is that around seven years a lot of people, that stuck around, stop going. It is the self censorship that wears you down. And if you speak up, you find yourself not welcome real quick. That is why the OPF is good for all of us unwelcome guest.

Date: Fri, December 13, 2013 7:05 am     (answered 16 December 2013)
From: "Bill T."
Subject: Second edit, post this one

Joe and Charlie Big Book Study

From Bill T

Have you looked into Joe and Charlie Big Book Study? There is a mp3 of a 1998 talk by the on the internet, easy to find. They did weekend talks all over the country for many years. Real good pitch for AA, went through the first 164 pages. They would start Friday night and then go all day Saturday and Sunday. They did not take any money but all their expenses were paid. It was like a Greatful Dead concert, all these people would tape it and then make copies to sell. I think that is why you only can download the 1998 one, any others you have to buy. It does not matter, they were all the same.

The reason that I bring this up is that I was given a set of their tapes in 1990. I had been sober 5 years going to AA and still could not figure out what the hell the steps were about. I went to Step meetings, Big Book meetings and asked people to explain it, to no avail. They would just say, 'it's in the Book.' I mean, for crying out load, I just did not get it. So listened to the tapes and I got it. They laid it all out. So then finally I was able to do the sacred 4th and 5th steps. So I got it, I had arrived and I could now have the so-called spiritual experience, whoop-t-do, turned out more like a bad trip. So what it boiled down to was that Joe and Charlie were my sponsor. They sold me on the big book and the 12 steps of aa. They were two smooth operators. A short time after that, their little dog and pony show was in my town and I went, a real scene, a big room full of true believers. Now I had the pitch and could sell it to others. But that was not to be. It did not take long for me to see that it had no value, so why would I try to sell it to someone.

I gradually stopped going to aa meetings. A lot of the crazy shit was still in my head. It took many years to clear all that garbage out. I went back to aa a few years ago and it had changed some. Not as many people at meetings. It was a mix of some old timers that I knew from before and a lot of short timers. Many from rehabs and court ordered. Lots that wanted to, 'take you through the big book.' And tell you how to stay sober. Sorry, been there, done that and I know how to stay sober, you don't drink and if you do, you don't drink too much. But that would be to easy and you can't sell books and a program with that. Also, I would hear people say, I have a home group, a sponsor and am working the steppes when they spoke. Sometimes they would say that their sponsor has a sponsor. Or even talk of grand sponsors. Is that a little Pacific group and Mid-town group influence? All very spooky. I did not bother to read any of the 'approved' literature. I did search out for the real poop on this business and found the OP among other helpful sources. After a bit, I stopped going. They way it is set up you can't get through to anyone and really help them by showing them the the truth. They are convinced, there is a bunch of us on the OPF that are painfully aware of how difficult it is to bring around someone that is convinced that they have the answer. Oh well.

So I was wondering if you have thought about writing up anything on Joe and Charlie? It all sounded good to me years ago, but when I got the truth about aa from you and others, then I saw it for what it was. Joe McQ started a rehab, so he was not really doing it for nothing. A link to that and one to the FIx on them.

http://www.serenityrecovery.org/recovery-dynamics-and-joe-mcq/

http://www.thefix.com/content/legend-joe-and-charlie6008?page=all

I am just not sure if you have said much about them. I would like to hear what you have to say or maybe already have written. What a Long Strange Trip It's Been. Take care and have a nice day.

Hello Bill,

Thanks for the letter and the experiences. And I thank you very much for your moral decision not to sell the 12-Step hoax to others. That's good.

Yes, I've thought of writing something about Joe and Charlie, and also about the other sub-cults and sub-gurus of A.A.

So far, I've only gotten around to the sexual predators' sub-cults like those of Mike Quinones and Clancy Imusland.

I know that Joe and Charlie are some hard-core dogmatic A.A. fundamentalists with a theology and a following of their own. Alas, I have to do more research before I write up a page on them, and I need to get a Round Tuit.

I've downloaded several Joe and Charlie videos, and I think I also have some tapes of theirs that somebody gave me, but I never got around to listening to all of them and studying them thoroughly, which I need to do before I'm ready to write a web page. That is yet another thing on my list of things to do. (It's not like I won't have anything to do in my old age. :-)

We discussed Joe and Charlie before,

The whole issue of how cult followers appoint themselves the new preachers and start their own sub-cults is a fascinating subject in itself. Heck, that's what Bill Wilson did: spawn a child cult of the Oxford Group and make himself the all-knowing, all-wise guru leader who walked hand in hand with the Spirit of the Universe on the Broad Highway in the Sky.

Oh well, have a good day now and a Merry Christmas.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*       http://www.orange-papers.org/forum/   *
*
**     If you wonder whether evil karma can be neutralized or not,
**     then know that it is neutralized by desire for goodness.
**     But they who knowingly do evil deeds, exchange a mouthful
**     of food for infamy. They who knowing not wither they
**     themselves are bound, yet presume to pose as guides for
**     others, do injury both to themselves and others. If pain
**     and sorrow ye desire sincerely to avoid, avoid, then, doing
**     harm to others.
**        — W.Y. Evans-Wentz, Tibet's Great Yogi Milarepa
*
**     Buy a Hallmark Christmas card and help A.A. to rape underage girls.  





December 15, 2013, Sunday, Fernhill Wetlands:

Canada Geese walking on ice
Canada Geese walking on ice
These geese are all coming to me to get food. They recognize me, and know that I am doling out rolled oats for them. What surprises me is that the whole flock is familiar with me. The Alaskan Cackling Geese who are afraid of me, who were here before, are gone, and these larger-bodied Canada Geese who know me are back. I don't know what they are doing here now. I thought they were all down south.

(There is one lone Cackling Goose in this picture, a little left of center, and down a bit. You can see how much smaller the body is. That Cackling Goose is probably one of the three crippled Cackling Geese who live here year 'round.)

But I do know that they are hungry. Everything is frozen, and there isn't much to eat, and they are happy to get some grain in their gullets. I'm glad I brought a lot, like two big cloth shopping bags full, maybe 20 pounds.

When you feed them, remember to put the food out in many small piles, not in one big pile. The most dominant male will try to own the whole supply. If you put the food in just one big pile, the dominant male will sit on it and try to keep the others from getting any. But when you put the food in many smaller widely-spaced piles, he can't do that. Sometimes the dominant male will still try, running from one pile to the next to chase other geese away from that pile, but then the other geese just move in behind him and eat the pile that he just abandoned in his rush to the next pile. He wastes his time running in circles while the other geese eat from the other piles.

Domestic Ducks walking on ice
Domestic Ducks walking on ice
These are the three surviving domesticated ducks. They are coming running to get something to eat too.

Gus the Greylag Goose and Canada Geese friends
Gus the Greylag Goose and a pair of Canada Geese friends, coming to me.
They are also eager to get food.

Gus the Greylag Goose and Canada Geese friends
Gus the Greylag Goose and Canada Geese friends

Gus the Greylag Goose and Canada Geese friends
Gus the Greylag Goose and Canada Geese friends, eating rolled oats.
The Canada Goose in front is crippled and cannot fly south for the winter. You can see how the big flying feathers on her wingtip are worn down to bare sticks from rubbing on the ground. Her wing got broken long ago, and healed crooked, and now this goose is stuck here for life. But actually, that's lucky. This is a good place for a crippled goose to live.

Perhaps one of the crippled geese will become Gus's new wife next spring. But probably not this goose. I think that she is the mate of the big gander in back, the one with his head up. He is staying with her through the winter because he doesn't want to abandon her. Canada Geese mate for life, and are suprisingly loyal and faithful to their mates.

[More gosling photos below, here.]





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters380.html#AntKing ]

Date: Fri, December 13, 2013 12:27 pm     (answered 16 December 2013)
From: "AntKing"
Subject: I would like to be approved to participate on your Orange Papers forum.

Greetings!

Been going to your site again and again for research, and have tried unsuccessfully now for over a year to sign up for the forum. Hoping I can get someone's attention now.

About me:

Forced AA attender (court ordered); I actually chair a weekly AA meeting, although I can't say anything about God or Higher Powers because I'm Buddhist and we generally don't pay much attention to the supernatural, focusing on the importance of understanding our own minds as a way to "salvation" (however you define it).

Besides your fine collection of articles, I've done a bit of my own reading on AA. Read Nell Wing's memoirs of her years working for the New York central organization from 1949 up to at least Bill's death in 1971(?); she touched briefly on Bill's LSD usage and indicated she had tried it with Bill and Lois. An really keen on reading Tom Lanagan's and Susan Cheever's books.

Anyways, I'd like to participate! I promise to behave myself, but don't promise to steer clear or controversy or mentioning other, radically different approaches to dealing with problems related to substance abuse, and how they differ from the Twelve Step approach.

Sincerely,

TheAntKing
Fellow traveller

*My chosen login name is TheAntKing

Hello AntKing,

You are in now. I found your name and approved you.

And you don't have to avoid controversy and those "outside" subjects. Please do not practice self-censorship, it's not necessary. I don't censor people. I believe in freedom of speech.

And we often discuss other methods of recovery, including CBT and the Sinclair Method. And we even have a Christian minister who is annoying some people right now. I go out of my way to avoid censoring people or shutting them down. The only rule I ask for is that the people please refrain from personal attacks on other people. Please avoid viciousness and low attacks on others.

And it sure would be nice if people would stick to telling the truth, but that might be too much to ask. (At least, of some people.)

I read Nell Wing's book, Grateful to have Been There. Interesting. Unfortunately, she saw everything through tinted lenses. Bill Wilson tripped his brain out on LSD for years, while claiming to be sober, and all that she could say was that Bill was conducting research into sobriety, and it was legal at that time. But so was alcohol. Quotes: here and here and here.

I also read Susan Cheever's book, My Name Is Bill; Bill Wilson — His Life And The Creation Of Alcoholics Anonymous. Alas, it was a real white-wash. Susan Cheever even made ridiculous statements like that Bill Wilson lived in an age of sexual frustration and had to contend with bundling boards. And it was okay for Bill Wilson to be a sexual predator, because it's an official secret, and besides, Bill is special. And practicing necromancy and talking to dead people in séances is normal and reasonable, isn't it? Doesn't everybody do it? See quotes here, here, here, here, here, here, and here.

To all readers: You should not have to wait a year to get in. If you have registered, and haven't been approved and enabled within a week, please do let me know. Email me. I go on vacation for a few days now and then, but you shouldn't have to wait more than a week to get in.

And always do email me as soon as you register, and tell me what user name you registered. That is to distinguish you from the spammers. The spam-bots (not even real humans) create thousands of false registrations, attempting to get enabled to post, so that they can spam the web site with advertisements for their sundry scams and products and rackets and frauds. The spam-bots won't — and can't — email me with anything resembling a human-written letter, so I just don't enable them, and so far, that's doing a good job of keeping them out.

Have a good day now, and a Merry Christmas.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*       http://www.orange-papers.org/forum/   *
*
**     In the meantime, bundling boards — low walls clapped into
**     place across the bed — and homemade chastity belts were
**     used to keep the beast at bay.
**     ==  My Name Is Bill; Bill Wilson — His Life And The Creation Of
**        Alcoholics Anonymous, Susan Cheever, page 228.
*
**     Buy a Hallmark Christmas card and help A.A. to rape underage girls.





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters380.html#Gary_S ]

Date: Sun, December 15, 2013 7:03 am     (answered 18 December 2013)
From: "Gary S."
Subject: A Recovering Alcoholics Wish

Dear  A. Orange    Have Read   &  Agree  With Many Things  You Say About   Clancy Pacific Group!!  Especially After  hearing Him  Speak  2 Times @  SCL Club    The Problem I Have   Is All The Mental / Emotional Energy YOU HAVE Spent  On  Only 1 School Of  AA Thought     There Actually  Are  2  AA Schools  Of Thought  In  The West!!    The Other 1  Stems From  The INTENSE   RIVALRY   Between  Clancy  & CHUCK  C.   If  You  Read   Chuck C.   Seeing  With    A New Pair Of  Glasses    It Would  Throw  A  WRENCH  In  Your  Entire  Opinion   Of  AA     MY   Sponsors   Have All  been  Of The  Chuck  C.   School  Probably Because I Was Raised  In  Laguna Beach     Graduate  LB HS   Class of  62     Heard  Chuck C.  Speak  Many  Times When I Was Younger  (  Mom Tried to get Sober When I Was  10 yrs Old   Being a Single  Good Looking  Auburn Haired Irish  Lady  Didn't Want To Go To Meetings Alone  So  Dragged Me  Along  To Keep From Getting HIT ON   Agree With You On  13th Step  Comments!!!!)   Got Sober  1989   Celebrate  25 yrs  Jan  26  2014        I Do have Problem  With  Alcoholism  As A Disease    I Agree  Disease   Obsession Of Mind Combined With Allergy Of The Body    BUT   Get Sober  Work Steps  With God As Higher Power  Within  1 yr Compulsion/Obsession Should Be Lifted!!!   Body Detoxed!!!!    As With Any  Allergy   If You Don't  Injest It   You Don't Suffer From Allergic  Reaction!!   That Is Where I Do Not Agree With AA   You Can Recover From    Disease   At  Which Time  It Becomes  A  CHOICE   The 1  Thing  I  Share @ Meetings  That gets The    Most  Negative  Feed Back!!!     Please  Respond  With You Comments             Gary  S.

Hello Gary,

Thank you for the letter.

Chuck Chamberlain was the sponsor of Clancy Imusland. (He was also the father of the famous actor Richard Chamberlain.) I have one document about Chuck C., his testimony before the U.S. Senate Subcommittee on Alcoholism and Drug Abuse, here:
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters178.html#Kathy_F
and
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-chuckc1969.html

You can see from this document that Chuck C. was just spouting all of the standard A.A. platitudes and slogans. There is not an original thought in there anywhere. And it's also contradictory and false cult dogma. And notice how he ended his testimony by recommending that the government force more people into A.A. (That's promotion, not attraction.)

Now some of the A.A. sub-gurus and self-appointed experts do disagree with each other, and emphasize different things in their sermons. I know of the divisions in A.A. like Clancy's fascist cult versus more moderate branches of A.A. The fact remains that none of them has gotten a good success rate in sobering up alcoholics. The A.A. program just doesn't work. And they all still use the same 12 Steps, and they all make absurd claims like that an invisible "higher power" who can be anything that you want to believe in will fix your insane mind and remove your defects of character and your moral shortcomings for you. It's all still irrational faith healing that has a proven track record of failure.

Oh well, have a good day now, and a Merry Christmas.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*       http://www.orange-papers.org/forum/   *
*
**     "Oh, I've known some cases where it hasn't worked, but in many cases
**     it's been a successful salvage job. I think if just somehow we can
**     get this same kind of dedication into a public facility, it would
**     certainly simplify the work of the political subdivision in meeting
**     this problem."
**       == Chuck C., testmony before the U.S. Senate Alcoholism and Drug Abuse
**          Subcommittee, recommending Government promotion of A.A. in public
**          facilities.
*
**     Buy a Hallmark Christmas card and help A.A. to rape underage girls.





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters380.html#Taylor_W ]

Date: Mon, December 16, 2013 1:45 pm     (answered 18 December 2013)
From: "Taylor W."
Subject: Cracked magazine

Hi Orange,

I was writing to (maybe?) help clear up some confusion in a recent letter regarding Cracked.com. Your memory serves you right, it's the digital continuation of the other Mad magazine.

The website is split pretty evenly between satirical and informative articles. Many of the latter at least give their sources to allow the reader to determine the veracity of the claims for themselves. I sometimes find them wanting, but I'd go as far to say a person would be better off trusting Cracked than the History channel.

Although, that's not saying much at this point, I suppose. Anyway, just wanted to let ya know that you were correct about what Cracked is, but that it's changed somewhat over the years. I wouldn't dismiss something simply because it's hosted there, personally.

I trust you are well,

Taylor

Hi again, Taylor,

Thanks for the clarification. Yes, that's what I suspected. Cracked Magazine.

While I find their web site entertaining, it seems like a dangerous format: What are you supposed to believe? How do you know for sure whether you should take something seriously or laugh at it?

With a web site like that, the joke might be on the reader who gets fooled and confuses fact with fiction.

Have a good day now and a Merry Christmas.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*       http://www.orange-papers.org/forum/   *
*
**     "What, me worry?"
**       ==  Alfred E. Newman





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters380.html#Brian_K ]

Date: Sat, December 14, 2013 9:11 pm     (answered 18 December 2013)
From: "Brian K."
Subject: Where did you get this info?

I have tried 12step groups and have felt this way

Hello Brian,

Well, maybe you would like some of the non-12-Step groups or methods better. Here is a list of addresses:
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-alt_list.html.

Have a good day now, and a Merry Christmas.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*       http://www.orange-papers.org/forum/   *
*
**     "More generally (and this applies to Christianity no less than Islam),
**     what is really pernicious is the practice of teaching children that
**     faith itself is a virtue. Faith is an evil precisely because it
**     requires no justification and brooks no argument. Teaching children
**     that unquestioned faith is a virtue primes them — given certain
**     other ingredients that are not hard to come by — to grow up into
**     potentially lethal weapons for future jihads or crusades."
**       ==  Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion, pp 307-308.





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters380.html#Jim_B1 ]

Date: Dec. 14, 2013     (answered 18 December 2013)
From: Jim B.
Subject: Playback times for TV program in Tucson:

On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 7:26 PM, Jim Battle <jbtentmaker@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Vikki,
>
> My name is Jim Battle. I was told to remind you to schedule my program
> titled "Alcoholics Anonymous Is Dangerous". Thanks.
>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Vikki Dempsey
Date: Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 8:44 PM
Subject: Re: Scheduling TV Program
To: Jim B.

Hi jim,

The only cablecast time I have is overnight. I've scheduled you for Fridays at 12:30am and Tuesday at 1am.

thanks,
vikki


Date: Dec. 14, 2013     (answered 18 December 2013)
From: Jim B.
Subject: Playdates for the TV program in Tucson

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Vikki Dempsey, Program Mgr.
Date: Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 8:47 PM
Subject: Play Dates for Project "Alcoholics Anonymous is Dangerous"
To: James B.

The following 55 dates are scheduled for the project "Alcoholics Anonymous is Dangerous", starting 12/13/2013.

Friday 12/20/2013, 12:30 AM, Channel 20/74
Program TBA

Tuesday 12/24/2013, 1:00 AM, Channel 20/74
Program TBA

Friday 12/27/2013, 12:30 AM, Channel 20/74
Program TBA

Tuesday 12/31/2013, 1:00 AM, Channel 20/74
Program TBA

Friday 1/3/2014, 12:30 AM, Channel 20/74
Program TBA

Tuesday 1/7/2014, 1:00 AM, Channel 20/74
Program TBA

Friday 1/10/2014, 12:30 AM, Channel 20/74
Program TBA

Tuesday 1/14/2014, 1:00 AM, Channel 20/74
Program TBA

Friday 1/17/2014, 12:30 AM, Channel 20/74
Program TBA

Tuesday 1/21/2014, 1:00 AM, Channel 20/74
Program TBA

Friday 1/24/2014, 12:30 AM, Channel 20/74
Program TBA

Tuesday 1/28/2014, 1:00 AM, Channel 20/74
Program TBA

Friday 1/31/2014, 12:30 AM, Channel 20/74
Program TBA

Tuesday 2/4/2014, 1:00 AM, Channel 20/74
Program TBA

Friday 2/7/2014, 12:30 AM, Channel 20/74
Program TBA

Tuesday 2/11/2014, 1:00 AM, Channel 20/74
Program TBA

Friday 2/14/2014, 12:30 AM, Channel 20/74
Program TBA

Tuesday 2/18/2014, 1:00 AM, Channel 20/74
Program TBA

Friday 2/21/2014, 12:30 AM, Channel 20/74
Program TBA

Tuesday 2/25/2014, 1:00 AM, Channel 20/74
Program TBA

Friday 2/28/2014, 12:30 AM, Channel 20/74
Program TBA

Tuesday 3/4/2014, 1:00 AM, Channel 20/74
Program TBA

Friday 3/7/2014, 12:30 AM, Channel 20/74
Program TBA

Tuesday 3/11/2014, 1:00 AM, Channel 20/74
Program TBA

Friday 3/14/2014, 12:30 AM, Channel 20/74
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Tuesday 3/18/2014, 1:00 AM, Channel 20/74
Program TBA

Friday 3/21/2014, 12:30 AM, Channel 20/74
Program TBA

Tuesday 3/25/2014, 1:00 AM, Channel 20/74
Program TBA

Friday 3/28/2014, 12:30 AM, Channel 20/74
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Tuesday 4/1/2014, 1:00 AM, Channel 20/74
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Friday 4/4/2014, 12:30 AM, Channel 20/74
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Tuesday 4/8/2014, 1:00 AM, Channel 20/74
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Friday 4/11/2014, 12:30 AM, Channel 20/74
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Tuesday 4/15/2014, 1:00 AM, Channel 20/74
Program TBA

Friday 4/18/2014, 12:30 AM, Channel 20/74
Program TBA

Tuesday 4/22/2014, 1:00 AM, Channel 20/74
Program TBA

Friday 4/25/2014, 12:30 AM, Channel 20/74
Program TBA

Tuesday 4/29/2014, 1:00 AM, Channel 20/74
Program TBA

Friday 5/2/2014, 12:30 AM, Channel 20/74
Program TBA

Tuesday 5/6/2014, 1:00 AM, Channel 20/74
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Friday 5/9/2014, 12:30 AM, Channel 20/74
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Tuesday 5/13/2014, 1:00 AM, Channel 20/74
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Friday 5/16/2014, 12:30 AM, Channel 20/74
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Tuesday 5/20/2014, 1:00 AM, Channel 20/74
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Friday 5/23/2014, 12:30 AM, Channel 20/74
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Tuesday 5/27/2014, 1:00 AM, Channel 20/74
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Friday 5/30/2014, 12:30 AM, Channel 20/74
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Tuesday 6/3/2014, 1:00 AM, Channel 20/74
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Friday 6/6/2014, 12:30 AM, Channel 20/74
Program TBA

Tuesday 6/10/2014, 1:00 AM, Channel 20/74
Program TBA

Friday 6/13/2014, 12:30 AM, Channel 20/74
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Tuesday 6/17/2014, 1:00 AM, Channel 20/74
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Friday 6/20/2014, 12:30 AM, Channel 20/74
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Tuesday 6/24/2014, 1:00 AM, Channel 20/74
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Friday 6/27/2014, 12:30 AM, Channel 20/74
Program TBA

Hello Jim,

That is good news. That is a whole lot of airplay. The word is getting out.

Have a good day now, and a Merry Christmas.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*       http://www.orange-papers.org/forum/   *
*
**     "Good publicity does not manufacture itself."
**     Bill Wilson rationalizing how he manipulated Jack Alexander, the famous
**     Saturday Evening Post writer, to get him to do a very favorable
**     article on A.A. (So much for "attraction, not promotion".)





December 15, 2013, Sunday, Fernhill Wetlands:

Cackling Geese
Cackling Geese
These three Cackling Geese are crippled, and cannot fly away, so they are permanent residents. You can see how the wing of the one on the left is wrecked. They are not exactly tame, but not exactly terrified of me either. They are not fleeing from me in fright. Quite the opposite. They came near me to get food, but they are not comfortable with getting too close. So they are trying to work their way around me to get to a pile of rolled oats.

Gus the Greylag Goose
Gus the Greylag Goose, wanting more oats
A bully drove him away from the pile he was eating at, so he wants me to put out another pile for him. So I did.

Gus+Cackling_Geese
Gus and the Cackling Geese, getting more rolled oats.

Gus+bully
Gus and the bully
Here the bully comes again, from the right, wanting to take over this pile of oats. Gus is actually bigger than the bully, but he isn't much into fighting. So I'll just give Gus another pile further on. In the mean time, other geese are eating the piles that the bully just left behind as he rushed to this pile of oats. The bully doesn't really gain anything by running from pile to pile, trying to hog all of the oats.

[The story of the goslings continues here.]





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters380.html#Jim_B2 ]

Date: 14 December 2013     (answered 18 December 2013)
From: Jim B.
Subject: Report from Jim Battle
Hello Everyone,

Below you will find a link to a forum called The Orange Papers Forum. I am a member. Since the time I joined, 6 weeks ago, the Orange Papers website went from four million hits to six million hits in just one month. That's an incredible increase in hits. I and others believe that this is largely due to the conflict between me and certain members.

Here is the Orange Papers link
< http://orange-papers.org/forum>

You see, I joined this forum because the members are just as much against AA as I am. However, a small (but very vocal) group of members, who are highly-respected by many other members, hate me because I'm a Christian preacher who is testifying that the Lord helps people overcome addictions.

The owner of this website and forum calls himself Orange. And although he's not a Christian, he has no problem with me presenting my Christian views on his forum. He believes very much in freedom of speech.

Nevertheless, this band of wicked members don't want me to tell the truth about Christianity, The Bible, and Jesus Christ because they have been deceiving other members about these subjects for years. They are furious because I am exposing their anti-theist agenda on a forum that is only supposed to be anti-AA.

Anti-theists are atheists who openly fight against all religion, especially Christianity. A couple of members who claim to be Christians have joined these members in viciously attacking me in blogs and comments they post. The reason I am spending so much time defending Christianity and The Bible on this forum is because there are many people reading these blogs and comments but are not saying anything. I believe that the Lord is using my blogs and comments to bring more people to this forum and to encourage His people who are reading them. Here is a link to my blog Jim Battle's Blog
http://www.orange-papers.org/forum/blog/87867

The link above takes you directly to all of MY blogs but this link will take you to ALL of the blogs. The Blogs of My Enemies
http://www.orange-papers.org/forum/blog

By reading the titles of the blogs they have posted lately, you will see how much these few bullying members are against preachers, Christianity, The Bible, and Jesus. If you open up my blogs or theirs, and scroll down the page, you can recognize my comments to them by the little logo next to them (an red, orange, and yellow little book titled "12 Steps To Destruction").

If for you ever decide to join this forum (to make comments) it would NOT be wise to let them know that you know me. If you ever decide to join write me and I'll explain why.

Also, here are the link to my TV program videos:

AA Is Dangerous — Part 1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBe4f95BSP0

AA Is Dangerous — Part 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAwGBgUJyQs

AA Is Dangerous — Part 3 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYA2CdU1Gsg

AA Is Dangerous — Part 4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Az99S_jgcw

Blessing,

Bro. Battle

*Ps 18:2* — The LORD *is* my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, *and* my high tower.

Hello again, Jim,

Thanks for the links for the videos. That is good.

I don't think that all of the people on the forum are against Christianity. It's more like they are opposed to attacks on gay guys, or atheists. Or that atheists hate Christians because Christians have absolute moral standards. That starts an argument real quick.

Speaking of the statement that Christian believers had absolute moral standards, I saw that post in the forum, and wrote up a response to the claim, which I'll add onto the bottom of this list of letters.

I doubt that the sudden increase in web site traffic is just due to controversies and arguments in the forum. I know that there has been a lot of debate, and some posts get 50 or 70 comments. Still, 50 or 70 isn't 2 million.

It is normal for the web traffic to increase in the fall. The usual pattern, year after year, is for traffic to drop way down during the summer — the "Summer Slump". People are out playing in the sunshine, swimming and vacationing, and don't want to be indoors in front of a hot computer.

But then, when the weather turns bad, they all come indoors and cruise the Internet. The traffic slowly, steadily, ramps up until it peaks in March of the following Spring, except for a small dip in December, a small Christmas slump where people are busy doing Christmas things and partying instead of reading my web site. But then, come January, after they have had their Christmas and New Years blow-outs, they are back to it, and stay at it until March, after which the next Summer Slump begins.

Beyond that, the overall trend line, year after year, is a slow steady increase. That has been going on for 12 years now.

Have a good day and a Merry Christmas.

== Orange


Date: 14 December 2013     (answered 18 December 2013)
From: Jim B.
Subject: Religious People Are Less Intelligent Than Atheists

Hi Orange,

I thought you might be interested in a blog post titled "Being Religious or Spiritual Is Linked With Getting More Depressed":
http://www.orange-papers.org/forum/node/3893#comments

<http://www.orange-papers.org/forum/user/27199>
On this blog, one member called lamnotastatistic posted a link to a study that showed that "religious people are less intelligent than atheist"
http://news.yahoo.com/religious-people-are-less-intelligent-than-atheists--study-finds--113350723.html

Not one OPF member complained about this great insult to people who believe in God. However, those who have been complaining about me would have been writing you letters and doing all they could to get me banned if I had posted a link to a study that proved that atheists are less intelligent than religious people.

What if a new member who believes in God reads something like this? And they've accused me of "religious abuse" and "spiritual abuse" but said nothing about this. Just letting you know about the double-standard of those who want me banned.

Take Care,
Jim Battle

Hello Jim,

Ah, but is it an insult to say that religious people get depressed more? Or that non-believers are more intelligent? I remember a saying that someone said to me a long, long time ago: "A wise man cannot be insulted because, the truth is not an insult, and a lie is not worth noticing."

The big question for me is, "Is it true?" Was the poll or study or survey or test done in a fair and balanced and reasonable and accurate manner? What standards were used for judging depression? How depressed? What methods, and what standards, were used to measure intelligence? How was the testing done?

All of the time that I was growing up, the standard opinion was that atheists were very depressed people because they could not look forwards to going to Heaven. All that they could expect was old age, sickness, death, darkness and oblivion. That's enough to drive someone to suicide, and some depressed atheists did choose the suicide exit.

The thing is, nobody said that it was insulting to the atheists to tell them that they were more depressed than the believers. Or that their lives were glum and miserable because they had nothing to believe in.

So what reason do we have now to think that it is actually the believers who get more depressed? The first thing that occurs to me is the extremely judgemental nature of so much of Christianity:

  • You are born guilty of the Original Sin.
  • You are defective and imperfect, and you displease God.
  • You are not what God wants you to be (even though God made you what you are).
  • You sin constantly.
  • You are just a disgusting sinner.

Yes, I would find that very, very depressing if I believed it. Fortunately for me, I don't.

Unfortunately, some people do believe that stuff, and they find those beliefs so depressing that they commit suicide over them.


Date: 14 December 2013     (answered 18 December 2013)
From: Jim B.
Subject: Orange agrees Jim Battle is a dangerous criminal

Hi Orange,

I just thought you should know that you are being lied about on the forum. Brett posted "Orange's agrees that Jim Battle is a dangerous criminal". This is slander and he's making it seem like you are the one doing the slandering. I will have a hard time convincing any churches that our anti-AA cause is good if they think that you believe I'm a dangerous criminal. They will know that this is slander and will falsely believe that you are guilty of it. So you might want to put Brett in check. Thanks.

Jim Battle

P.S.: Orange, what I quoted was in the title of Brett's blog.

Hello again, Jim,

Quite right. I never said any such thing. I wish people would refrain from putting words into my mouth.

There is a world of difference between someone who believes in Christianity — even if in a Fundamentalist way — and a dangerous criminal.

Have a good day now, and a Merry Christmas.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*       http://www.orange-papers.org/forum/   *
*
**     The Big Book, as written by Forrest Gump:
**     I looked at Lt. Dan, and was aghast. Last year, a cripple in a wheel chair.
**     Now, walking on his own two feet. I said, "Lt. Dan, you have legs."
**     My ideas about miracles were dramatically revised right then and there.
**       ==  See: The Big Book, 3rd & 4th Editions, William G. Wilson, Chapter 1, Bill's Story, page 11.
*
**     "Instead of regarding ourselves as intelligent agents, spearheads of
**     God's ever advancing Creation, we agnostics and atheists chose to believe
**     that our human intelligence was the last word, the alpha and the omega,
**     the beginning and end of all. Rather vain of us, wasn't it?"
**       ==  The Big Book, 3rd & 4th Editions, William G. Wilson, Chapter 4, We Agnostics, page 49.





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