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by A. Orange
First I received some real weird responses to my share on an online "recovery" blog where one could state their opinion..I talked about a Psychologist, member of AA, who once told me to stop taking my meds and "Work Steps go to more meetings" a year later wound up in 2 mental hospitals, finally properly dx ed and felt like the scum of the earth when I returned to my home groups. I "slipped"! Did not realize this a "Work the Steps or Die", and I am a bitter nasty old dry drunk to them, huh? Think I have great sense of humor. Most people like me. Again I learn to avoid toxic people, relax and let go. I am not an "AA basher", just that the Fellowship I knew for years, (I don't use word "program" I am not a computer...nor robot) has radicaly changed. I don't live in the USA any more, never was a "puritan" and know in my own heart I am free. Often when I travel I attend Ex Pat English language AA, to network with sober people, rather than being alone in a bar. Thanks You keep up your good work... Did not send this reply to the online group, wrote it for ME. . PS any of you zombie culties members of the Midtown Group in DC? Just asking.
Finally Agent Orange?? Big Wow!!! Or "Whoopee do" as Archie Bunker used to say on TV in "my day" Jeez am sober today. "Dry Drunk who is Going to Die Lonely, Bitter Miserable" (Why do I still have lots of friends??????????? ex alkies, addicts, social and moderate drinkers, those who never drank at all..human beings) Oh also by the way advise newcomers to avoid the 12 Step on line Lamplighters User Group, if AA is the only resource available to them, then at least f2f look into their eyes and read their body language, if the group is either psychobabblers or overtly 'religious' at least look for some individual members who will give support. Avoid those wishing to sponsor you right away and if you are an attractive young female you'll have "AA men" crawling all over you! If old and unattractive they will hand you some literature and tell ya "keep coming back" Signing off... bitter old dry drunk with a lot of ESH.
Hello "Salvador",
Thanks for the letter. It says a lot. Above all, congratulations on
making it. Still making it, in spite of everything.
When you come right down to it, we are still here.
I wish I could tell you that the anger will just fade out and go away
after a while, but I'm still fighting with old angers too. I'm still pissed off
at what was done to me 40 or 50 years ago. All I can do now is refuse to allow
old angers to dominate my life. When I find myself feeling anger and rage over
those old things, I just change the subject (in my head), and turn my
attention to something that is good, right here, right now, in "real world".
It's a struggle. It's a battle. But it's worth winning, I think.
I don't want to waste any more time being angry about old history
that I cannot change.
That doesn't mean that I will ever forget. That is impossible. But I don't want
to let that old garbage waste any more of my time. Upwards and onwards.
Have a good day, and a good life.
== Orange
P.S.: I just looked up that reference to "16 Steps" at
addictioninfo.org, and I see that
it is Charlotte Kasl. Yes, she's really good. I have one of her books in my
"Top 10" reading list,
here.
Tuesday, 17 November 2009: A couple of notes:
Well, another month has gone by, and another year, and it's autumn
again, and the goslings have all grown up, and you have to look closely
to tell them from their parents.
But we are still going throught the collection of pictures from last spring:
[The story of Carmen continues here.] And now I just had another couple of anniversaries, again. Back in October, I got 9 years off of drugs and alcohol, and just a few days ago, 9 years off of cigarettes and tobacco. It feels good. What a relief to not be hungover or coughing. And an interesting note: A Firefox plug-in called "Xmarks" is useful for synchronizing your bookmarks between computers. Like it will combine your bookmarks from your home computer and your laptop, so that the same things are accessible from both machines. Well, I signed up for it, and discovered that they rated the Orange Papers as number 8 in the category called "Serious". And it's like 30th in "AA", 38th in the category of Addiction, and #41 in Cults. I guess they do that by tallying people's bookmarks. I'm not sure what that amounts to, or how they judge, but it's interesting, and flattering. So the Orange Papers got this little graphic for being a "Top 10" web site:
Later: One of the Xmarks fellas told me that their rating system is experimental, and they decided to cancel the category of "Serious". So O.P. is no longer a "top 10" site. So it goes. What was A. E. Housman's line about how fleeting fame is? (To an Athlete, Dying Young) "It withers faster than the rose."
Dear Orange, A friend recently turned me on to your site and I want to thank you for all of your research and work. My guess is that there must be a number of people out there dealing with addictions who come across your site while searching the internet for resources. If you help just one avoid AA then I thank you for a job well done. I think your papers empower people who are looking for answers and make them think twice about going to a 12 step group. I quit drinking two years ago on my own and with the encouragement of friends, family and a doctor. Happily my doctor does not promote AA and validated my own belief that people can recover without ever attending a meeting or adopting a spiritual practice. Last winter I spoke with a co-worker who had been going to AA for his 90 meetings in 90 days routine. I told him about my own experience and my reservations about AA. Apparently he spoke with his sponsor about our conversation and this alone prompted a phone call to me from the sponsor. The sponsor was angry and accused me of "interfering with "John's" program" and that I could be responsible for John leaving AA or having a slip. I was taken aback by this guys audacity in telling me I should not express my opinion to the man he sponsors. I simply told him to mind his own business and that I will express my objections to AA at will and without consequences. He hung up on me. My co-worker is struggling with his drinking and in my opinion AA is making his life more miserable. I have encouraged John to read the Orange Papers and to try some of the alternatives. Thanks again for your wonderful website and give those sweet geese some bread for me.
Sincerely,
Hello Gary,
Thank you for the letter and the compliments. And congratulations on your sobriety
and recovery. And yes, the do-it-yourselfers are the majority of the successful
sober people, so you have every right to talk to your friend about what works,
and what doesn't.
Speaking of which, I hope your friend is doing well. I should point to the list
of discussions that we have had about what works, and what has helped people,
here.
Perhaps he can find some useful information there.
Have a good day.
== Orange
Hey Orangie! I must say my eyes have been opened! You must be a disillusioned and frightened untreated addict/alcoholic. You have expended a lot of energy to persuade yourself in your endeavor, I hope that works for you. Take it easy brother... Darin K
You have a good day too, Darin.
== Orange
Aloha, I remember talking to someone calling themselves Apple a long time ago on 12 step free. I'm the guy who eventually had his story published in 12 Step horror stories put together by Rebecca Fransway. My story was "One man's journey through the door marked exit". It is good to see the Orange Papers site is still running. Just wanted to say hi and thanks in case you are still running the site.
Mahalo
Hi Richard,
Thanks for the note.
And thanks for the story in Rebecca Fransway's book "AA Horror Stories".
I read that book many years ago, and it was more fuel for the fire
(my internal fire, that is).
You are right about the Apple—AA-Deprogramming connection, but I'm not Apple,
and Apple never ran the Orange Papers web site. Back in 2000 and 2001, when I was
just starting out, Apple ran the web site called AAdeprogramming.com.
I sent the original
versions of some of my essays to her, and she put them online.
I chose the name "Orange" so that we could
joke about mixing apples and oranges.
Apple retired from the scene, and I kept on writing, so my stuff evolved into a
web site of its own.
Ken Ragge is mirroring the old AAdeprogramming web pages now, at
Here are a few more historical references:
Have a good day.
== Orange
istj has forwarded you this craigslist.org posting.
Original URL: http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sgv/rnr/1360329668.html
Hi istj,
Thanks for the laugh. And you have a good day too.
== Orange
Hi Orange, you've got a lot of great information on your site. I would like to suggest another question for your "Cult Test Questions" page: Can you get up and walk out of the room? If the answer to the above question is "yes", then I'm sorry, it is not a cult. Cults control people. If someone who is free to leave at any time ends up controlled, that is the fault of the individual, not the particular philosophy.
Hello ,
Thanks for the letter.
Sorry, but being kept prisoner in a room is not a standard cult characteristic.
Very, very few cults kept their people prisoners in an armed camp
like how Jim Jones's People's Temple did.
In most cults, the people come and go as they please. People are free to get up and
walk out of Scientology, the Moonies, Hari Krishnas, and Jehovah's Witnesses,
and yet those things are all very much cults.
The thing is, those people are not
mentally free to leave. They are victims of indoctrination and phobia
induction that makes them believe that they will die, or lose their
ticket to Heaven, or something
horrible will happen to them if they leave the cult. With Alcoholics Anonymous,
it is of course, "If you leave A.A., your fate is jails, institutions, or death."
Cults do things like guilt induction, indoctrination, deceptive recruiting,
phobia induction, teaching irrational dogma, constant put-downs, confession
sessions, enemy-making, isolation, two levels of information,
and loaded language. A.A. does all of those things.
See
the Cult Test
for a list of 100 standard cult characteristics.
A recent correspondent who was in A.A. for many years said that she rated A.A. on
that test and that A.A. was guilty of 97 out of the hundred.
I would like to call your attention to the following article, which I hope you will like: http://www.positiveatheism.org/rw/tradition.htm I think this article is spot on: Any attempt to use AA as a professional treatment for alcoholism is wrong-headed, maybe criminal, and further is prohibited by AA doctrine. I don't know who these charlatans are that abuse AA philosophy, but you are right to call them on it. I especially like the description of AA from the article:
12-Step philosophy is not psychotherapy, counseling, or treatment for substance abuse, or a rigorously researched model of applied psychology and should not be utilized for such purposes. Twelve Step philosophy is just that; a system of loosely organized beliefs which serve to bring together lay people in a self-help/mutual-aid group, free of charge and as an alternative to professional intervention. As such, it cannot properly be professionalized, systematized, advertised, or engaged in for financial profit. Once again, spot-on. AA is a philosophy at the service of lay adherents. Considered as such, it is as good a philosophy as any, and it was never intended — in fact, was specifically prohibited — from being presented as anything else. From the BB, Forward to the First Edition:
We would like it understood that our alcoholic work is an avocation.
The author there, Cliff Walker, the owner of the Positive Atheism
web site, was being too nice.
Yes, you can call
Buchmanism — the real A.A. religion
— a "philosophy" if you
wish, but it is hardly just a service organization. The core of Buchman's
religion is the belief that the best life consists of being a
slave of a "Higher Power".
Every day, you conduct a séance and hear "the Voice of God", supposedly
telling you what to do, and giving you the power to carry out the orders of
the voices in your head. That is A.A. Step 11.
Buchman also declared that you were too stupid to think for yourself,
so you should have a sponsor or Führer doing your thinking for you,
and telling you what to do.
And Buchman declared that you are so flawed that you cannot ever be
cured or fixed — you have been "defeated by sin"
(like "powerless over alcohol") — and
the only thing you can do with your life is
surrender to a "Higher Power" and hope that "Higher Power" makes
you into a good little puppet.
Does any of that sound familiar? It should, because it's in the 12 Steps.
And then it gets worse. While a few people do go to A.A. meetings to be of service,
lots more do not. Others use A.A. as a meat market, to pick up on the new women
who show up. See the
Midtown Group for much more on that.
And then there are the old-timer ego-trippers, enjoying being a big frog in a small
pond. And then there are the people who are just afraid to leave, because they have
been told that they will die if they do. And then there
are the people who are obsessed with A.A., and who have to go to one or two or three A.A. meetings
per day or else they freak out. And then there are the sponsors, looking for new
slaves. And then there are the neurotics and the psychotics and the religious fanatics.
And then there are the criminals who are forced to be there by the courts and parole officers.
And on and on.
That is not a good crowd to ask for life advice.
Of course I totally agree that Buchmanism should not be packaged and sold as
a quack cure for alcoholism and addictions.
The treatment centers that sell 12-Step programs as a cure
for drug and alcohol problems should get sued out of
existence, and put in prison for fraud and criminally negligent homocide.
By the way, in spite of the fact that Bill Wilson wrote in the Big Book that
"We would like it understood that our alcoholic work is an avocation",
he actually became a millionaire by selling it. He never had to work a straight
job again. (It was just the other people who weren't supposed to get a share
of the money.)
In any case, you throw around that "cult" insult a lot, and I do not think you are justified in doing so. AA does no recruiting, charges no dues, and never pursues people who leave the fellowship. By your metrics, the local elementary school is more of a cult than AA. I agree completely with your criticism as it applies to professional practitioners. However, I think that your criticism of AA overall is not helpful, in that it gives the alcoholic a very authoritative-appearing excuse to avoid AA and continue drinking. *"See? AA is a cult! I can't get involved in that!"*
I think I am very justified in calling A.A. a cult. Again, read
the Cult Test
and see the list of standard cult characteristics.
And then compare that list to Alcoholics Anonymous.
Your claim that the local school is a cult is based on a gross misunderstanding
of what a cult is and how they work.
You obviously have not bothered to actually read "my metrics", or else
you quickly forgot them.
And once again, there is the veiled accusation that I am hurting alcoholics by telling
the truth about A.A., and maybe discouraging someone from going to Alcoholics
Anonymous. That is such a
standard A.A. accusation.
But I get a lot of letters from other people who say that I helped them by telling the truth.
On your site, you misuse the Harvard study repeatedly, thus: "80% of all alcoholics who quit do so on their own." That statement implies a blatant falsehood, one that you, with all of your emphasis on evidence, should be ashamed to repeat. In fact, as your statistics show, most alcoholics do not quit, but rather *die of their disease*. The truth of the matter puts quite a different moral emphasis on your repeated misrepresentation of the facts.
What blatant falsehood? Now you know more about medicine than the Harvard Medical School?
What are your sources of information? Let's see the hard evidence.
Where do you get the idea that the Harvard Medical School is wrong about addictions?
And "my statistics" do not show that most alcoholics die
of "the disease". Where? What are you supposedly quoting?
I said that slightly more than 50% of the alcoholics recover,
and 80% of those recovered people did
it alone, on their own. And that's just what the Harvard Mental Health Letter said.
Since you seem to think that A.A. cures alcoholics, let's see the facts. Let's see
some numbers. Once again, it's time for the question that A.A. members have never
answered honestly:
Out of each 1000 newcomers to A.A., how many will pick up a one-year
sobriety medallion a year later? Finally, I have read your page on "The Lizard Brain Addiction Monster", and I must say that, from my own perspective, I have never read such a risible load of claptrap in my life. I am delighted that such nonsense worked for you, but it never would have worked for me, and your notion that this approach is more rational or workable than the AA approach is simply unsupportable and merely your own prejudice talking.
Obviously, listening to your own mind, and recognizing thoughts, is not your strong suit.
But other people who do "get it" have said that the knowledge was a big help
to them in staying sober.
Perhaps my opinion makes you consider me a "sheep". Perhaps you are right, but I have no need to argue the point. In any case, I have found a lot of value in AA, certainly no harm, and I resent the fact that you call me a cultist merely because of my religious beliefs. Your view is prejudiced, and in my opinion, more likely to harm alcoholics than help.
Sorry if your feelings are hurt by my calling A.A. a cult, but it's the truth.
And once again, there is the veiled accusation that I am hurting alcoholics by telling
the truth about A.A.
Thank you for your time and have a great day. P.S. — If you care to respond on your site, I would appreciate a link.
You have a good day too.
== Orange
Hi Terry, the letter you received from Pete on Sat, August 22 that claims a "modern outlook on addictions" is EMDR (eye movement desensitization and reprocessing): http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/emdr.html http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/mentserv.html Ray S.
Hello Ray,
Thanks for the tip. I've only read a little bit of that so far, but I'm getting
the impression that they are selling the same idea as Scientology does: that memories
of old injuries cause insanity and limit your powers and abilities, and if
your old memories are somehow "processed" so that you are desensitized
to them, then you will become something greater.
That's quite an assumption. Personally, I've never found dwelling on old negative
memories to be beneficial.
Have a good day.
== Orange
Hi Terry, I have Fingarette's book here in front of me. Chapter 2 is titled "Can Alcoholics Control their Drinking". He cites:
The studies were Mello and Mendelson, "Drinking Patterns During Work-contingent and Non-contingent Alcohol Acquisition (1972); Mendelson, "Experimentally Induced Chronic Intoxication and Withdrawal in Alcoholics" (1964) He also says to see: Gottheil et al., "Fixed-Interval Drinking Decisions" (1972); Cohen et al. "Alcoholism: Controlled Drinking and Incentives for Abstinence" (1971a) and "Moderate Drinking by Chronic Alcoholics" (1971b) Others are mentioned and cited, these seem to be the big guns. Ray S.
Hi again, Ray,
Thanks for the information. I find it rather amazing how the powers that be
can ignore such findings for so long, and continue to parrot the same old
"powerless over alcohol" fairy tale.
I just got Fingarette's book through an inter-library loan. And now I have to read
it, along with all of the other things on my reading list.
Date: Thu, September 10, 2009 7:17 am (answered 20 November 2009) Another study on delayed gratification. Don't drink that marshmallow The marshmallow experiments are famous by now, thanks in large part to Daniel Goleman's Emotional Intelligence books, and their relevance to addiction seems obvious. In 1968, Stanford psychology prof Walter Mischel presented four-year olds with a marshmallow and the choice: Eat it now, or wait 15 minutes and get two. The kids who could delay the gratification ended up, a decade and more later, with higher SAT scores, higher graduation rates, better jobs — in short, twice as many of the marshmallows life had to offer. It was often believed that the kids who could delay gratification did so thanks to more "will power." Mischel — according to a helpful and informative summary in this week's New Yorker, by Jonah Lehrer — analyzed what this "will power" really consisted of.
He paid very careful attention to what went through the delaying kids' minds as they resisted the bait. They succeeded because they had methods of distracting their minds from the lure. They covered their eyes, or played hide-and-seek under the desk, or sang songs. "Their desire wasn't defeated — it was merely forgotten." The key, Mischel found, was not to resist the marshmallow — that didn't work — but to avoid thinking about it.
Wow. "Cognitive tricks". It looks like cognitive behavioral therapy strikes again.
The obvious implication is that some alcoholics could be taught similar cognitive
tricks to delay or avoid drinking, or more particularly, excessive drinking and drunkenness.
Thanks again for the input, and have a good day.
== Orange
Hi Orange Re: The British Secret Service (MI5) investigating The Oxford Group/Moral Re-Armament during WWII... See: http://www.mi5.gov.uk/output/right-wing-extremists-and-groups.html Wow, seems like the British government really took quite an interest in the pro-Nazi stance of the Oxford Group! Did you know about this? Best regards Gary
Hi Gary,
Thanks for the link. No, I didn't know about that. That is very interesting. Now I'd like to
get my hands on the whole report. Perhaps some British citizens know how to get documents from
their government?
Have a good day.
== Orange
Last updated 14 July 2010. |
