Does AA have a 33% success rate after 10 years?

Clara thinks so. First time I've ever heard that. Is it true? Did I just miss it?

I started this blog because it was going on and on in another thread completely off topic - and it was a good topic Avo brought up. Get your replies over here Clara. No more flooding other people's posts with inanity.

Comments

Persephone In Exile's picture

I never liked the dishonesty of it, though, to be clear. It irked me to no end to be mistaken for having a problem I don't have. Perhaps because I already had enough problems at the time, but being told to say I couldn't control myself with a substance I actually don't even use was very annoying to me. And no, not because I I feel a reverse sort of hierarchy, or feel better than someone who really can't control alcohol use, just because it's not at all true.

Trisha K.'s picture

Meaning I never took recreationally narcotics, amphetamines or barbiturates then became dependent. I smoked pot twice and hated it. It made me paranoid. So I can't identify with most drug addicts and their lifestyles. I can identify with people who functioned while taking narcotics. I had plenty of friends that shot up heroin and worked at some very prestigious companies. They would shoot up behind their legs and their feet.
I was not a down and out drunk.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

becket's picture

There are differences between the lifestyles of drug addicts and alcoholics, the main difference being the legality of the substances. All I ever had to do was drive to the drive-up liquor store window and hand them five bucks for a bottle of vodka. My heroin addict friends had to break into homes and steal valuables and then drag them to a fence or pawn shop to get the money for one more shot. The level of desperation is vastly different, which can account for some alcoholics' viewpoint that they were not "drug addicts".

Dependence on alcohol is as troublesome as dependence on heroin or crack, but I believe the grades of dependence make a difference in the impact said dependence has on the addict, the addict's job, family, friends, economic situation, etc. In my experience, it was easier to take care of business under the influence of alcohol than it was for my addict friends to even try to get out of bed, shower, get dressed and go to a job. I'm not claiming all drunks and all junkies behave this way. This is just what I've experienced and observed.

I disagree with you on your assessment of uniqueness; I believe each human being is unique; although common ground and common traits may exist, there are no two human beings alike. And I also take issue with this: "STOP drinking altogether! There.... your problems are solved." Once drinking stops, usually the problems rise to the surface and they have to be recognized, addressed, evaluated and dealt with. Booze is not the problem. It simply exacerbates it.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Persephone In Exile's picture

OK, I wish I'd read Becket's response before I answered, you summed it up a bit more succinctly. I don't know too many people who robbed for their drug money, but it either way was a much larger percentage of their available, um, funds to secure their substance than it was mine, or alcohol.

Clara's picture

Threre is a reason for identifying as an alcoholic in AA and not an adict. Bill wrote about it in 1958 not that you couldn't be dually addicted or that meetings couldn't exist that spoke to both... but they weren't AA meetings and couldn't be indentified as such. Look at the preamble of AA. WE used to have a meeting in MB at a coffee shop where the guy let the group use a backroom. No rent, but they had to buy their coffee and sodas from him. That was a more "mixed meeting." It also isn't an advertised meeting because of that. Of course, you can go to open meetings and not idenity at all.

Singleness of purpose

AA's Singleness of Purpose is a principle derived from the Fifth Tradition of Alcoholics Anonymous, "Each group has but one primary purpose—to carry its message to the alcoholic who still suffers."[1] Other groups replace the word alcoholic with the identifying characteristic of their fellowship, or otherwise rephrase it to have a similar meaning. For instance, in Narcotics Anonymous that member would be an addict.[4] The principle is based on the philosophy that those that share common physical cravings and mental obsessions can best understand and help those that are struggling with their specific addictions. Alcoholics Anonymous founder Bill Wilson wrote in the February 1958 AA Grapevine that

"We cannot give AA membership to non-alcoholic narcotics-addicts. But like anyone else, they should be able to attend certain open AA meetings, provided, of course, that the groups themselves are willing.
AA members who are so inclined should be encouraged to band together in groups to deal with sedative and drug problems. But they ought to refrain from calling themselves AA groups. There seems to be no reason why several AAs cannot join, if they wish, with a group of straight addicts to solve the alcohol and the drug problem together. But, obviously, such a "dual purpose" group should not insist that it be called an AA group nor should it use the AA name in its title. Neither should its "straight addict" contingent be led to believe that they have become AA members by reason of such an association. Certainly there is every good reason for interested AAs to join with "outside" groups, working on the narcotic problem, provided the Traditions of anonymity and of "no endorsements" are respected.”

—Bill W., AA Grapevine[6]

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Persephone In Exile's picture

Yep, Bill sure was an ignorant little bastard, wasn't he?

I did both heavily but stopped hard drugs quite a few years before I stopped drinking. I never stole or committed crimes to feed either problem. Many people manage to work and then binge afterwards. There are obviously those that did commit crimes regularly but I did not associate with them while I was drinking. I only really came into contact with them in large numbers in the rooms of AA where they were often the ones that would relapse every few days and then turn up for a couple of meetings when they were skint to get some sympathy. Drug abuse takes place everywhere. Users range from the homeless to members of the most exclusive clubs in the world. Channelling both groups into one faith healing meeting can have rather predictable consequences. I wonder who caused the more chaos in the uk last night - those out on the town celebrating st Patrick's ( the Irish saint of erectile disjunction and wife beating ) or the stoned person at a rave. Which one would you rather sit next to in an annonymous meeting

Trisha K.'s picture

PIE was right you did explain this very well.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

btnben's picture

No - it's way less than one percent. I was being generous.

0.76% is the number for 11 years.

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

alkieanon's picture

Don't shoot the messenger.
http://www.aa.org/pdf/products/p-48_07survey.pdf

On second page:
Length of Sobriety
Sober more than 10 years 33%
Sober between 5-10 years 12%
Sober between 1–5 years 24%
Sober less than 1 year 31%
Average sobriety of members is more than eight years.

btnben's picture

Didn't mean to have a go. I just find it despicable the way AA misuses data to paint a false picture.

That average of 8 years is a laugh. That means for every newcomer there must be someone with 16 years. And everyone celebrating 1 year needs a 15 year oldtimer to make up the average. Anyone who has been to a few AA meetings will see immediately that this is a joke. I know it can happen (anecdote). I've been in a meeting of 8 and the other 7 had over 200 years of sobriety between them. Definitely an exception, not a rule...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Clara's picture

Sure you did, Ben. Having a go is your point of being here. You just didn't mean at him.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

btnben's picture

I did have a go at alkieanon. Immediately afterwards I realised I was wrong. I apologised straight away. What more could I do? What would your sponsor tell me to do? What would AA tell me to do>?

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Clara's picture

My sponsor thinks you are silly. If people are happy in their programs, what could it possibly mean to anyone else? What time is it in the UK, anyway?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

btnben's picture

Is he gay? Men don't usually call other men "silly"...lol.

What if people don't care if you're happy in your program? What if this is a site where the majority are pissed off at hearing brainwashed people saying how happy they are? Can you not see it causing unrest when one of the brainwashed comes into a place where people thought they had left that behind?

It's 4:30 am. Motor racing starts in a few minutes...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Clara's picture

I didn't say he called you that. I should so much hate to have you think I lied to you. Say, speaking of lies, weren't your 20 minutes up a while ago?

I am of the opinion that most people are just glad when people reach sobriety if that is what they want for themselves. It's one thing to dislike or even to hate a program. It's another to take it out on someone simply for not having shared that.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

btnben's picture

for staying on here longer than I said I would. 2 reasons. 1 - the motor racing is on soon so no point in going to bed (it's in Australia). 2. Any normal person would have seen the problems with the AA survey in 2 minutes - you're still struggling after 2 hours...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Clara's picture

I couldn't care less why you are here. Who called you a liar? Not much commitment, though, it would appear. Hope your preferred driver wins.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

btnben's picture

the snide remarks, don't reply. You're too much of a waste of time. If you really are that stupid, ask for help.

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

becket's picture

"You're too much of a waste of time. If you really are that stupid, ask for help."

And these are NOT snide remarks, btnben?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Clara's picture

Ben, you are such a whiner. A lot of fun, but a real whiner. You couldn't leave out a snide remark if you tried. I am proud to have the Snide Ben award of the evening.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

btnben's picture

Want to give some examples? "Everyone's picking on me", "I just have my opinion and that's fine" and so on and so on- page after page. How you've got the gall to accuse anyone else of whining is beyond me...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Clara's picture

Notice of continous double standards is just an observation. I never said I was picked on. Avo said she she could understand if I felt that way. Say, is that your real picture? According to JR, he just couldn't believe that I would post a REAL photo of myself online. Funny how Orange did, too, and perhaps so have you!

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

btnben's picture

Just answer one question. According to the AA 2007 survey what is AA's success rate after 10 years?

Come on Clara - let's make it so everyone understands what you understand from your comprehensive study of the survey.

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Clara's picture

I have answered this, Ben. Keep swingin' your bone around. It's all you've got!

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

btnben's picture

Why can't you say either it is or it isn't? This is going to be a great example of a lying AA member cornered...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Clara's picture

I have, too, Ben. Just another example of if you don't answer it the way someone wants to hear it, they break out their inner troll.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

btnben's picture

? Doesn't make sense - again.

Go back to the start and answer the question at the beginning of the thread. It's so funny how you get yourself into these messes by lying...lol.

Going to start the dinner now...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Clara's picture

Hve fun at dinner, Ben. You need a break.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

btnben's picture

without a snide remark...lol. Stepper serenity at it;s finest. Now come back and accuse everyone else of what you're doing Clara...lol.

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

btnben's picture

What were you saying then? Do you know?...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

becket's picture

The other day you were leaving this forum, btnben - it was just too, too much for you. (Applause must have died down.) Now you're back. What's the deal?

(It's Apache for "he lies".)

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

btnben's picture

"It's one thing to dislike or even to hate a program. It's another to take it out on someone simply for not having shared that."

What are you trying to say?

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Clara's picture

Not sharing your hate. I forget that I have to type slowly around here...

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

btnben's picture

because you lie and twist the truth. No other reason. Stop doinfg it and see the change...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

becket's picture

Right, Clara, knuckle under to the Big Man and watch him offer you a virtual ice cream cone. Jesus.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

btnben's picture

Fancy driving men to porn and then admitting it. You ask for it sometimes M...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Clara's picture

Thank you for agreeing that this is how you behave toward others. That is how trolls operate, Ben.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

btnben's picture

... wherever I meet them. Online, face to face - makes no difference to me. People who know me learn quickly not to lie to me...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Clara's picture

Because you are the oh so powerful one, eh, Ben? LOL is right.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

btnben's picture

Getting a bit Crazy Clara...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

btnben's picture

It's just nice to be able to understand it once in a while. Where does the slowly come from? All these snide comments are not very serene Clara. Call to sponsor required...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Clara's picture

You mean the gentleman you referred to as gay for being mildly critical of you, Ben? How homophobic of you. You choose how you behave, no one else. So I had some fun at your expense last night? What do you do regularly? You hardly sound serene, my dear.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

btnben's picture

You had no fun at my expense. I wouldn't let you off the hook for lying and you got upset about it...lol. You still haven't corrected your blatant lie Clara. Are you going to? AA says you should...lol Don't want to drink again because of a lie...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Clara's picture

Because you assigned my word choice when you asked what my sponsor thought to sounding "gay." What "sounds" gay, Ben? In America, people don't associate the word "silly" as being a nancy boy.

No one lied. I read the membership survey and it's fine with me. It surely doesn't seem usual that it could be true given that most of the people I know have decades of sobriety that they attribute to AA. You disagree. So be it.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

btnben's picture

You lied when you said AA has a 33% success rate at 10 years. If the lie was your inability to understand a simple survey, just admit it and we'll leave it at that. You cannot lie and, when called on it, simply dismiss it as a difference of opinion. Your best way out is the dumb route...lol. We get a lot of US TV. Never heard anyone say "silly" about another guy...lol You saying it happens often?...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Clara's picture

You can't even admit that you took offense at a man talking about your immaturity and you assigned a sexual motive to him. You simply proved him right. It was childish.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

btnben's picture

As normal...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

33% of the people surveyed in 2007 were AA members for 10 years.
Still doesn't prove anything.

AA didn't work for you, Clara. You decided that you wanted to quit drinking, you did so, and you attribute your success to the program. I suppose that's fine with me.

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

Clara's picture

Thank you, Gigi. I have told my story online for the people that have asked to hear it. I agree that I put down the drink on my own and went to AA three weeks later. Putting it down wasn't the issue. Keeping it down was what I needed help and support with... and I got that in AA.

But why bother to even suggest that it didn't work for me? I have people that say that about the MM for my dog. They make remarks such as the MM isn't doing anything for him, that his spirit just hasn't decided to leave his body yet. I beg to differ. The guy I brought home isn't the same one i have today, but I know that he is terminal and will die soon. These same people will say, "see?" I don't understand people feeling the need to decide for others what they believe about themselves and what they experience. Their problem ISN'T a dog that had a poor prognosis or even that I took him off conventional treatment against the vet's advice. It is that I chose an illegal way to treat him, not that we have derived valued from it.

But I appreciate your objectivity.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

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