The Daily Bitch 13th March 2012

btnben's picture
Submitted by btnben on Tue, 03/13/2012 - 03:18

Humanspirit suggested that we have "What are the principles mentioned in step 12 and tradition 12" as a daily topic. I thought that this would bring a deafening silence from the pro- group (it usually does), but Clara, in her innocence, walked straight in declaring that the steps and the traditions are the principles...lol (another reason why I don't think Clara is Marietta. M would never have fallen for that one...lol)

The truth is that the steps have no principles in them. Plenty of cult practices, but no principles. The traditions are rather irrelevant as far as the steps are concerned. They weren't in existence when the steps were "passed down from on high"...lol.

I'm no expert on the 12&12 (weak stomach...lol). Does anyone know if it throws any more light on the principles in the 12 steps?

Just for a bit of fun - someone's first share when they are forced to go to AA but don't have a drinking problem. The punch line at the end is just so true....lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCPUDjBO0KU

Comments

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 03/14/2012 - 12:10

Most of the meetings in MB were non-smoking and those holdouts saw their numbers dwindling. That's a justified reason.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

AntiDenial

Wed, 03/14/2012 - 12:22

I don't quite get what you mean. Who was holding out and saw numbers dwindle? What is a justified reason?

Criminals In Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous
www.nadaytona.org

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 03/14/2012 - 12:29

Smokers were incredible in AA meetings. By the time I got there, there were but a few smoking meetings. But throughout the history ofAA, everyone smoked at meetings. I've heard of groups disbanding rather than go non-smoking, and those that held onto it saw their memberships stagnat. Sometimes, landlords decided the non-smoking issues and the groups found other locations. . Of course, outside no one can say anything unless it is a non-smoking place, like the beach in Surfside. No public smoking for anyone.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

AntiDenial

Wed, 03/14/2012 - 12:45

Well that is true here too. Many meetings have gone non-smoking, so they love to smoke at the park.
I am a non-smoker and care about the environment. When you see all the cigarettes butts left on the ground it is upsetting.

Criminals In Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous
www.nadaytona.org

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 03/14/2012 - 12:57

Yes, I have never smoked and I hate the litter inconsiderate people leave behind, regardless of who they are. Tossing of butts causes litter, fires and the occasional angry wife when they see me chasing down their husband after a careless toss landed in my car.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

AntiDenial

Wed, 03/14/2012 - 13:11

So there are pavilions away from the playground, but they like being closer to their car so they don't have to walk very far. So we still have the problem of being so close to the playground. It can be distracting to the members too like you said. Sometimes members bring there kids. Go back and forth to the playground to play with their child. Then the children sometimes comes running into the pavilion interrupting the meeting and also bringing new playmates from the playground.

This creates more of an in depth issue when it comes to the kids. Then you have local kids right in the center of a meeting, because they met a members kid at the playground, and they end up being exposed to the smoke, and stories,cussing and mandated felons even more up close.

Criminals In Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous
www.nadaytona.org

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 03/14/2012 - 13:28

There is nothing that can be done about that as it is obviously an open/family friendly meeting. But the issue I was hearing the most is that they don't pay. That I can understand and help with. Personally, I don't like those kinds of distractions. We have some in the meetings here, ike the guy whose job it is to "refill, make more coffee and fill some more" he roams the room looking for empty cups. But due to the traditions, they can it their way. That includes this meeting, so perhaps other parents need to be cautious about where their kid is running around to in the park with a new friend.

But, still, it isn't all right for one group to have to pay while another doesn't have to. If those Sunday birds pay for their time, it's theirs and theirs for three hours. So we are back to what goes away if they do in fact start paying, either through scholarship or on their own. I assume that they would choose that pavillion over other choices for the same reasons anyone else would want it. It sounds more like an AA family outing than a meeting to me, but I guess that works.

We loved Anastasia Park when we went there and there was a pick up meeting for the summer that was basically started for people staying in the longterm camp/RV areas. Still, you had to pay admission to get into the park same as everyone did. That alone limited who would go to it... and it wasn't advertised. We knew someone staying there.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

AntiDenial

Wed, 03/14/2012 - 13:44

Well Clara, like I said, there are many issues about AA/NA meeting at Sunrise Park. Because this is such a controversial issue, and many AA/NA members to not support them being there, paying rent will not solve the controversy.

You mention it is a family friendly meeting. One of the big problems is how they act around people and children in the park and at the playground. The fact that felons are mandated, and many don't seem to know how to act appropriately out in public, it is a problem. Children should not be exposed to hearing about people drunkalogs or shooting up heroin and hearing vulgarity. It is not right and it is not safe.

Criminals In Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous
www.nadaytona.org

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 03/14/2012 - 14:00

It wouldn't be where I would want my child, but I imagine that these kids hear their parents talk like that wherever they go. For those that don't, it is a parental choice to have them there. Learning how to behave is part of positive change. I know felons in church, so I can't jump in on who goes to meetings because addictions lead people to do what they might not do otherwise. I do know that in the meetings that one woman insisted on bring her kids to and talking about G's alleged molestation right in front of him, people did curb their speech.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

AntiDenial

Wed, 03/14/2012 - 14:10

You say it is a parental choice. Well the proper choice is for children not to be exposed to the meetings. So in fact many actually do stay away because of the meetings. There are still people who dont know that meetings are there, they bring their kids and they end up hearing it. These groups have proven that they dont know how to act in public. Therefore the community takes issue with the dangers and stories they are exposed to. Adults don't like to hear it either. They certainly are not being anonymous.

Criminals In Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous
www.nadaytona.org

becket's picture

becket

Wed, 03/14/2012 - 14:51

Taking children to meetings is not always a parental "choice". Some separated/divorced/widowed parents have no childcare options.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

AntiDenial

Wed, 03/14/2012 - 15:18

When it comes to children there is a choice, dont bring them to meetings. If they are being mandated by the courts, then I feel the courts need to address how they are part of the problem of endangering minors.

Criminals In Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous
www.nadaytona.org

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Wed, 03/14/2012 - 15:43

Clara, Saying that children would hear their parents talk like that at home is a stigma. I've said many things in meetings that I'd never say in front of my children or anyone elses.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

AntiDenial

Wed, 03/14/2012 - 16:08

Also, I asked therapists about this issue, and more than one said children do not have the emotional capacity to process all of these stories from all of the members, including their own parent. It is unhealthy and emotionally damaging to a child.

Criminals In Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous
www.nadaytona.org

becket's picture

becket

Wed, 03/14/2012 - 16:41

How many therapists did you ask? What's the actual number of those therapists whom you asked that honestly said "children do not have the emotional capacity to process all of these stories from all of the members, including their own parent"?

I don't believe it necessarily follows that a child's attendance at an AA meeting is "unhealthy and emotionally damaging". A well-run meeting should focus on solutions, on wellness, on self-improvement, on communication, on honesty. If it degenerates into a drunkalogue or a pity-pot rant a parent can always remove the child (and herself/himself) at that point. What is unhealthy about children observing adults modeling recovery thought patterns and behaviors? Or would you prefer to see parent and child sitting home wringing their hands over financial matters, broken relationships, personal losses? Because you know a child takes on the parent's emotional state. I say they're better off at a meeting than in isolation and fear at home.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 03/14/2012 - 16:53

I mean poor language, Avo. I know people that have told their children parts of their stories in part because they were making amends to them, but in this case, I believe we are discussing SMALL children. I don't agree with the practice for a lot of reasons, but I know that some would argue that unless they could brings their kids... And that may be another attraction to going to that meeting. The play ground is an option.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Ironic's picture

Ironic

Wed, 03/14/2012 - 15:22

Can call a freakin babysitter.

becket's picture

becket

Wed, 03/14/2012 - 16:43

And if they don't have the "freakin'" money?

That's a cold, myopic viewpoint, Ironic. I think your visits to this forum are twisting you toward being an uncaring woman, or maybe you just assume that everyone has discretionary income. Don't you live with your parents? What bills are you paying? You evidently have never felt the stress and worry of actually being personally broke with few options. Put yourself in those shoes and come up with a solution for that circumstance.

You sound like a "freakin'" misogynistic Republican.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

AntiDenial

Wed, 03/14/2012 - 16:37

Money or no money. It still does not mean you put children in harms way.

Criminals In Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous
www.nadaytona.org

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Wed, 03/14/2012 - 17:00

I have nothing but sympathy for parents who have no childcare options, but honestly, a woman brought 2 young kids to that last meeting I was at (recently, the "suicidal tendencies meeting") and in no way do I think anything discussed was appropriate for them to hear there. Getting your priorities in order, to me, means also knowing what is and isn't appropriate for your own children. Your drinking/using wasn't, and neither was (at least that particular meeting) bringing your kids! ANY kids, for that matter.

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

gigi

Wed, 03/14/2012 - 17:07

I know that I did quite enough damage to my children while I was drinking. When I sobered up, I intended to end the damage right there. This included NOT exposing my kids to anything that I felt was harmful or damaging or unhealthy. Bringing them to meetings would have just extended my selfish behavior further. That is unacceptable to me.

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

gigi

Wed, 03/14/2012 - 16:37

Do not bring your children to the meeting. It is completely inappropriate. I know about childcare issues and am well aquainted with not having the discretionary income to pay for a babysitter, so save your breath. When faced with the choice of bringing my kids to a meeting and missing the meeting, I always chose to miss the meeting. That's complete BS to say some parents don't have a choice. There is always a choice.

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

AntiDenial

Wed, 03/14/2012 - 16:40

Good to hear some common sense gigi ! it is our responsibility to protect children.

Criminals In Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous
www.nadaytona.org

gigi

Wed, 03/14/2012 - 16:46

and I appreciate the work that you do in terms of trying to protect children where you live. There's simply no room for the "oh well, they'd probably hear it anyway. It's not my child..." attitude.

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

AntiDenial

Wed, 03/14/2012 - 16:50

What is so troubling is AA standing onit only is it is up to each group, other than that I have not found any discouraging of the practice from 12 AAWS or NAWS.

Criminals In Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous
www.nadaytona.org

becket's picture

becket

Wed, 03/14/2012 - 16:52

"What is so troubling is AA standing onit only is it is up to each group, . . ."

Can you possibly explain this?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 03/14/2012 - 17:05

Bear in mind that I was speaking of poor language, not the stories themselves. I am one of those people that believes if you don't use it at all, you won't slip in certain circumstances or around your kids. You don't ever hear me swear and I don't accidently drop f-bombs because I don't bomb in the first place. People know what goes on in AA meetings. If a person chooses to bring your child there, I have to view it as an outside issue because no one makes you. I did not say I think it is appropriate. Necessary, I guess, at times. And for the second example I gave about the meetings and the parents sharing supervision, these kids are friends outside of the room, so it seems like a play date.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

becket's picture

becket

Wed, 03/14/2012 - 16:51

DO YOU EVEN GO TO AA MEETINGS?? If not, your opinion is worthless.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

AntiDenial

Wed, 03/14/2012 - 16:54

I am not going to continue to argue with you Becket. I will say though my opinion matters to the children I can help protect from the harm of going to 12 step meetings.

Criminals In Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous
www.nadaytona.org

becket's picture

becket

Wed, 03/14/2012 - 18:01

So there really are no other options for broke parents who want to go to meetings, are there? They either take their kids or they stay home. Oh, I forgot - they also have the choice to stay home and drink.

Glad you're such a visionary advocate for children everywhere, AntiDenial. Don't argue anymore. Your intuition to stop now is a good one.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Wed, 03/14/2012 - 18:25

They members here don't feel that AA should even be a option. You always have to remember this going into a conversation with anti. Even if the children were placed at a baby sitters, Anti still doesn't want the parents going either.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

becket's picture

becket

Wed, 03/14/2012 - 18:26

Riiiiight. And why would that be? Does she get to choose and no one else has that prerogative?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Wed, 03/14/2012 - 16:55

That statement is irrelevant. You are out of order and if you think that statement has any merit you are out of your mind.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

becket's picture

becket

Wed, 03/14/2012 - 18:01

Who are you bleating at now, JR Harris?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

becket's picture

becket

Wed, 03/14/2012 - 16:49

Oh, I forgot, gigi - the third choice is to drink. Yeah, babe, you're right.

I'm beginning to think that the women on this forum are all really in their teens, totally protected by mommy and daddy, never wanting for anything. Save my breath? Not a chance, gigi. Because you have never been in that position doesn't mean it's not an authentic and excruciating circumstance. So glad you missed all those meetings staying home with your kids, gigi. I can hear how mellow and compassionate that experience made you.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

gigi

Wed, 03/14/2012 - 16:57

if you think the third choice is to drink. Get to that AA meeting come hell or high water 'cuz if not you"ll surely drink!! Don't presume to know what circumstance I have ever been in or waht choice I have ever had to make. I have been in that predicament. I have made the choice to stay home rather than bring my kids to a meeting. And guess what? I didn't drink!!! It is a choice. All of it is a choice.

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 03/14/2012 - 16:57

The woman I often cite (and not with that much appreciation) felt that we should provide babysitting for her children. She brought it up with a business meeting, but no one else had that issue. My other group had the kids in the next room with parent spotters at the door. There are options if people try to work it that way. The first woman started running in and dropping her kids off. She had to be told that she couldn't leave her children at the building unattended and pointed out the sign. Remember that these people have all gone to this same meeting for years, so no one was uncomfortable with it.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

AntiDenial

Wed, 03/14/2012 - 17:11

It is not about the members as much as about the KIDS! Is there anyway to continue this discussion without it shrinking in size?

Criminals In Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous
www.nadaytona.org

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 03/14/2012 - 17:26

Anti, I know what you are saying. I am not in disagreement, just bringing their pov into it and explanations I've heard as well as ways people have handled it. I know other members that complain about kids being there because the meetings are in fact about the alcoholic members, and they don't want it. But it still boils down to a parent's judgment and if the meeting permits it. I knew a woman that nursed her baby despite the discomfort of the men around her.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

becket's picture

becket

Wed, 03/14/2012 - 18:05

"Is there anyway to continue this discussion without it shrinking in size?" Metaphorically speaking?

What is a third, fourth, fifth option, AntiDenial? If you are truly opposed to denial you will follow up on your assumption that there are other ways for broke parents to get childcare so the parents can go to meetings. Or are you one of those 1948 suck-up models who believes whatever society tells you has to be the way it really is: that a woman's place is in the home, that her main objective is to raise her children, that she'd best not be worrying that pretty little head with ideas of autonomy?

Ick.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Wed, 03/14/2012 - 18:13

I know!!! We're all getting much thinner this thread....

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 03/14/2012 - 15:12

This appears to be an open meeting and anonymity isn't a factor there. Anyone could go. The woman I often cite was told that her children were old enough to identify people now and they were in school. Some of the teachers were in that group. She didn't care. It was also a closed group. People left because of it.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

AntiDenial

Wed, 03/14/2012 - 15:18

Clara from what I can tell most meetings are open. That does not mean the principles of anonymity flies out the window. I think you know this. Anonymity is one of the core principles of AA. Newcomers who are vulnerable are being exposed in ways they might not realize. I believe they are breaking the tradition of anonymity and creating problems for newcomers.

Criminals In Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous
www.nadaytona.org

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 03/14/2012 - 15:37

I would have to look on the schedule. I came from an area that had lots of closed meetings. Many of the people came from areas with lots of open meetings. But surely there are some that are closed that a newcomer would appreciate. I prefer closed meetings.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

AntiDenial

Wed, 03/14/2012 - 16:05

My point was that anonymity is not to go out the window because it is an open meeting.

Criminals In Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous
www.nadaytona.org

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 03/14/2012 - 16:49

No, we aren't to talk about what happened in any meeting, but if you are looking for a meeting only with alcoholics in it, not their ride, husband, significant other, or mother... then you go to closed meetings. We didn't really worry about that at our beach meetings. Most people don't pay any real attention to us. They are just walking on their way. A person always has the choice to disclose or not to disclose. I never said anything in a meeting that I cared if anyone knew, beach or not.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Wed, 03/14/2012 - 18:55

Listen, No mother wants to bring here child to a meeting, I am sure. I am a mother and I was fortunate to not have to. I have watched other children at meetings for mothers with no options.
Yes, GG, whether you choose to settle down and accept it or not some mothers and fathers have no choice. But since you totally reject AA as a viable option for alcohol dependent people you have no problem expressing your biased opinions. If we were talking about SMART, LifeRing, SOS ect...I am sure your outrage would be almost non existent.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Wed, 03/14/2012 - 19:12

Oh, I'm sure there's some sort of skewed reasoning that leads parents to think meetings are in no way harmful to kids when they do have to bring them. Something along the lines of "scared straight", perhaps. Don't get me wrong, I have the utmost sympathy for those who cannot find childcare (or afford it) on a regular enough basis for meetings, but there are LOTS of situations in which you cannot afford/find child care for other things you'd love to be doing. Meetings aren't above this standard, IMO.

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

AntiDenial

Wed, 03/14/2012 - 12:13

Yes Holly Hill Fl have issues with their parks. Part of it is government being apathetic and not listening to locals concerns. The community want the City to clean up the parks, have better patroling of the parks, to prevent or curb drug dealing, gay cruising issues and large groups that use the park without a permit, and to not turn the park into a rehab center. AA actually got NA into the park many years ago.

Then NA ended up having meetings every single day, with a total of 8, 2 being on Sunday.
They really took over the park, and many complained, but nothing was ever done. Then the meetings got to be over 100 people sometimes. But they still were usually at least over 50. Even though the park is a good size, parking is very limited. So they would take over all the parking, start parking on the grass.
So their monopoly of the park and behavior got to a point where the crap hit the fan.

Criminals In Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous
www.nadaytona.org

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Wed, 03/14/2012 - 11:05

What we have here is some confused members that think regurgitating resentments over and over is therapeutic.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

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