I took out an Ad for Smart Recovery- I challenge you ...

One way to beat them at their own game is to promote other choices (not alternatives) to AA/NA. SO I have taken out my very first ad. I know AA must be exposed and blah blah blah, but We, I can promote Smart, Rational, WFS, SOS and such to enlighten the world that AA is not the only way. This is the kind of thing that AA did in its early years especially in the 1950's. Marty Mann went around and spoke to the biggest 500 companies in America and she did this promoting AA for the first 5 years of the National Council on Alcoholism. She used this Non profit to promote AA under the guise of "caring". I plan on not only exposing AA in my Documentary but really highlighting the power of empowering choices that are sane, non religious and CURRENT!!! If all of us here can write and send letters to professionals. If anyone can take out the smallest ad promoting your favorite choice ...If you can write your own personal horror story and send it to your local newspaper, if you can tell every professional you know about the truth about 12 step we can make change. I am not stupid. Hollywood seems to be in love with AA. Too many stars have attended and promote it with their shows like Nurse Jackie. If anyone needs a good letter to send, I had a blogger help me write a really great letter to a Professionals exposing all of this. makeaasafer@gmail.com
causeandeffect's picture

I agree. This is all a diversion from the issues we are here to talk about. Strange that Clara didn't answer my question though.
"The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves." ~Dresden James
JR Harris's picture

You didn't get here by accident...... Look for the similarities, not the differences......

~You can not moderate the truth. Just don't lie, steal or make stuff up out of thin air and expect to get away with it without it being pointed out to you. It's really very simple.~

AntiDenial's picture

No, they are told by AA to go to a meeting the first day out of jail. They also offer to drive them as well. They go to Drug Courts and give a sales pitch to keep the courts bringing them clients that will buy the big book etc.

"I welcome all allies in the fight against A.A. hegemony" -Orange

www.leavingaa.com www.expaa.org

NA DAYTONA Violent Criminals Mandated to AA and NA Meetings
http://nadaytona.org/alcoholics-anonymous-votes-no-to-protect-members-from...

Trisha K.'s picture

When Bill was treated by a doctor the year was 1956.
“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.” Shirley MacLaine
Trisha K.'s picture

There are records out there.
“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.” Shirley MacLaine
causeandeffect's picture

His depression? Why would someone who has had a spiritual awakening suffer such a long bout of depression? Shouldn't someone who's seen god be happy and at peace?
"The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves." ~Dresden James
causeandeffect's picture

Where?
"The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves." ~Dresden James
Ironic's picture

And when was LSD ever tried on humans for depression in the United States?
btnben's picture

I thought AA preaches we are powerless over alcohol. Doesn't that mean we have no choice in drinking? There will come that (mythical) blind spot when we just can't help ourselves? We are doomed unless we find cult religion?

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

btnben's picture

Marietta is the only person who has complained, repeatedly, about the forum format?

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

btnben's picture

"Pers"? Change one letter and you've got Marietta's pet name for PIE. Clara has a very similar response frequency to M too. The plot thickens...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

btnben's picture

" I think you are being silly." - Trading insults after just a couple of days? Seems like the actions of an "old timer" rather than a "Newcomer"...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

btnben's picture

That's EXACTLY what I thought after I'd typed it. Ain't the absurd simply the greatest?...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

JR Harris's picture

Wow, are you ever lucky. So what type of "lawyers" are your AA Sponsor and his AA wife? Let me guess..... divorce, bankruptcy....? You got tag teamed by pro's..... You should feel honored. Did they help your current husband in his divorce from his wife by either filing papers or giving referrals? It's always god to keep it in the AA family you know.

~You can not moderate the truth. Just don't lie, steal or make stuff up out of thin air and expect to get away with it without it being pointed out to you. It's really very simple.~

Clara's picture

I am powerless over what booze does to me. I never can gauge if I will have one or five. I don't have that kind of control. But I can decide if I pick up that first one. And I did occasionally stop at one or two, generally if I had one it would go to two if for no other reason than I used credit cards and you coldn't charge just one - oh, the logic! But I was a binge drinker for the most part. If I started, I generally didn't stop until I was over the bend.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Clara's picture

I don't have familarity with this. While both my husband and I served as treasurers for our various groups, we sent monies to area, district, and NY. I have no idea about franchises at all, although I understand franchises because we own a few Village Inns.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Clara's picture

Unless they are mandated by the court to go, they can always refuse. If part of rehabilitation so that you can become a respectable citizen again includes alcohol treatment, then why should that be a problem? I don't know anyone that has gone to a judge to ask that AA be part of a sentence, but I do know judges that are in the fellowship. AA itself is a suggestion only. I know people in custody court that have been told to receive treatment for respective issues, but I don't know them to specifically state that it has to be AA. Having said this, I have seen and even signed probation slips. I don't know the process that causes taht to be included, but I also don't care. My sponsor's practice of criminal law sees 90% of his casework involving charges because someone was either driving while high or drunk, beating their spouse after stopping at the bar, or embezzling funds to support a drug or gambling habit. He's supportive of any 12 step that could aid in alleviating the behavior.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Clara's picture

If he was using it for medica purposes, that is permissible in AA and he disclosed it. Steve Jobs explains his in the tome published after his death, and Denis Leary's use was summed up in Gordon Liddy's book, Will. He busted him in Millbrook. Pretty funny event. I rather wished I had been there.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Clara's picture

Why are you dictating how another should spend her time? My husband has no women sponsees. It was never encouraged where we went to meetings. I lucked into mine as he and his wife are old family friends.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Clara's picture

Then that would be the only similarity. I can't always tell whose remarks are posted in response to what... But I will learn, I am sure.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Clara's picture

My sponsor and his wife are old family friends. They work for separate firms, and his work is primarily criminal work. Most of his cases have to do with charges someone got while boozed or coked up. My husband's divorce was handled in a different state with an attorney with no AA affiliation.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Clara's picture

I don't think that I am trading insults, and I never initiated any poor behavior. As for my time on the computer, I spend a great deal of time blogging as I enjoy it. One of the perks of being retired!
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
btnben's picture

Timothy (not Dennis) Leary's use is well documented in several of his own book. The only one I've read is "The Politics of Ecstacy" - I am a child of those times...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Clara's picture

I have worked with people that sufered from crippling depression since the age of nine. They take some pretty strong medications. I have also worked with schiz that took antipychotic drugs. There are people that simply cannot help their body chemistry. I've suffered from depression, too, and have used medications for it. I don't consider that contradictory to being in a fellowship for treatment for alcoholism.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Clara's picture

jealous...
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Clara's picture

I frankly don't understand the hostility. Some people are very happy in the A programs. Others weren't and so they left. It's all okay to me.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Clara's picture

I don't know the context, but to do it at all would be in poor taste.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Clara, I agree that taking doctor perscribed meds is not contradictory to being in a fellowship for treatment of alcoholism, and many people in AA agree with that stance. There is, however, another faction of AA that is very anti-medication. I have heard of and witnessed first hand people being advised not to take medications if they want to be truly sober. AA is just like any other religion. You'll find splinter groups spreading some really wacky and dangerous ideas out there.
"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."
Clara's picture

I didn't see a question directed toward me. I am here because I read something online that I thought was interesting, so I came to look at the site. I agree with some of it, but disagree with other bits. And that is fine. I admit that the hostility is surprising.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Again, apologies if you're not someone else, and to anyone else out there who is pro-AA and encounters hostility on this site. It isn't really personal, sometimes not even ideological, more just a response to the rather intense trolling that has occurred already on this forum. (Another reason perhaps to ban the damned trolls, IMHO. Not the dissenters, just the trolls.)
JR Harris's picture

Since they have a lot of criminal cases that have to do with alcohol or drugs, how are they prevented from recruiting clients in the fellowship? Even better than that, lawyers make anywhere from a few hundred dollars an hour to thousands. How can they allow AA, meetings, Sponsorship and responsibilities that go along with it to interfere with that. Sorry, I have to call BS.................... things don't add up. Is your husband at a meeting right now, or is he doing a 4th Step with a female sponcee? Like Laureano Sifuentes in Boulder, Colorado? http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/30431327/detail.html "BOULDER, Colo. -- A sponsor for an Alcoholics Anonymous group in Boulder is accused of sexually assaulting a member he had offered to help. Longmont police arrested Laureano Sifuentes, 64, Wednesday night on suspicion of unlawful sexual contact. Sifuentes posted bond Thursday morning. Boulder detectives have been investigating Sifuentes since November 2011 when a woman reported that Sifuentes had touched her inappropriately during a meeting that he had scheduled at a Boulder hotel. The woman said he persuaded two women in the AA group that he would help them through one of the AA steps. That step is about disclosing information about past wrongs to one other person, and it's usually done one-on-one in a private setting, Boulder police spokeswoman Kim Kobel said. Sifuentes arranged a meeting at a hotel in Boulder and the victim, along with another female in the AA group, agreed to attend, Kobel said. The victim said that during their meeting, Sifuentes touched her sexually. She fled the hotel and called to have someone pick her up at another location. The other woman did not see what allegedly occurred, but did observe the alleged victim fleeing the hotel, Boulder police said. Sifuentes has previous arrests in 1998 and 2000 for driving under the influence of alcohol. Anyone with information about this case is asked to call Detective Colleen Wilcox at 303-441-4483. Those who have information but wish to remain anonymous may contact the Northern Colorado Crime Stoppers at 1-800-222-TIPS (8477) or 1-800-444-3776. Tips can also be submitted through the Crime Stoppers website. Those submitting tips through Crime Stoppers that lead to the arrest and filing of charges on a suspect(s) may be eligible for a cash reward of up to $1,000 from Crime Stoppers."

~You can not moderate the truth. Just don't lie, steal or make stuff up out of thin air and expect to get away with it without it being pointed out to you. It's really very simple.~

Clara's picture

I would agree that groups can have their own takes on things. It is a given in the traditions, and that Akron and NY were often at odds. That is why my sponsor always said to go to the literature. That's the difference between program and people. What I have believed about some of these opinions is that if you are taking something to replace drinking, that differs from taking something for a medical condition. I knew people that detoxed on Valium to avoid seizures but only to a limited level. If you are still taking it a year later, you are simply substituting. But I would no more tell a person not to take their legit meds than I would to not take lipator or insulin for diabetes. I am not a doctor and it isn't my role.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Ben, that was one of the most contradictory things I heard when I entered "the program". It wasn't my fault, I had a disease, I was powerless, yet I was making "bad choices". What? I understand the concept, the idea that addicts and alcoholics are so faulty in their thinking as to require guidance to make just about any choice, which is what frankly started offending me so much (me and ideas of social control don't work very well together). But to do that while also suggesting there is no ability to choose was just comprehensible to me. Perhaps because it is just so cult-like in nature. "You are powerless, you make terminally bad decisions on your own, therefore declare your powerlessness, never fight again in your life and let us make your decisions for you." Um, no.
Trisha K.'s picture

Dissenter or Troller? Sometimes I can't tell the difference who is who here. Thanks for bringing the subject up.
“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.” Shirley MacLaine
Trisha K.'s picture

This occurs after the alcohol is ingested. There maybe a misunderstanding here concerning AA's definition of powerlessness.
“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.” Shirley MacLaine
Ironic's picture

"This occurs after the alcohol is ingested. There maybe a misunderstanding here concerning AA's definition of powerlessness." Where and when does AA define powerlessness this way? Or is this Trisha K.'s definition of powerlessness as opposed to AA's?
Ironic's picture

I bet he asks the judge for leniency for his clients. I bet when he makes a plea bargain for these clients, mandatory AA meetings are involved every time.
Trisha K.'s picture

I understand where you are trying to go here but I am going to have to pass judgment here and call this an outside issue. We can not determine from the article if the two women were being truthful. I would say BS because why would two women go to a hotel room to do a 4th and 5th step with a 64 year old male. This case will be thrown out of court. My judgment.
“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.” Shirley MacLaine
Ironic's picture

Can you please give a source for this information? I can't find ANY sources to back up this claim that LSD for depression/mental illness was EVER tested on humans in the US. The only thing I see is where the govt and CIA dosed people WITHOUT THEIR KNOWLEDGE. They were trying to use it as a weapon of war/truth serum. Never ever as a treatment for depression. Back up your claims, please.
Ironic's picture

for some crazy reason, they think they can trust AA members. The girls were in a VERY vulnerable place and trusted this "AA guru" when he said he would help them. I wouldn't have been dumb enough to do that, but then again I never had the "willingness." I bet the women in the group didn't tell the girls that this man was a predator. This is not an outside issue at all. It is an issue affecting a woman's safety in AA, IN the rooms. Sounds like the exact opposite of an outside issue.
Trisha K.'s picture

I am not sure I can help you. I am one of the "exceptions". I am a real alcoholic. When I read the BB I understood from Bill's story that when he drank Bill became powerless over the next drink. I related to this inability to stop. As far as the rest of my life choices I do not feel powerless after I act on them. That's not true love can make me feel powerless sometimes but I enjoy that feeling...lol.
“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.” Shirley MacLaine
Trisha K.'s picture

Two women do not go to a hotel with a 64 year old man to discuss life altering events. Why two women? Sounds to me like the plan did not happen the way it was intended to. For all involved.
“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.” Shirley MacLaine
Clara's picture

My personal source is my spsonsor, but many others have experienced of Bill W. taking LSD for depression treatments. Per my sponsor, Bill W's shrinks Abram Hoffen and Humphrey Osmond introduced him to a therapy including LSD in the 1950's, and it was around 6 treatments.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Clara's picture

Some people can use anything and not have it create problems for them. If so, fine. I wasn't one of them.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Ironic's picture

in that I am making assumptions as to what they were thinking. I would never again go to AA, or get a sponsor, so I would never ever actually trust that person. My bullshit detector was always going off at those meetings, but hell, some people drink the kool-aid, obviously. Some people believe that their sponsors have their best interests at heart and wouldn't hurt them.

Honestly, it doesn't matter much what is taught at the top or even written by AA when in practice these ideas are being taught to others by people who perhaps DO misunderstand the official definitions. Even in rehab the various counselors have different takes on this notion, and they do apply it (as do people in group sessions) to stories of your life and everyone else's. This gets diluted even further in meetings, IMO. I'd also like to stress, yet again, that this is discussion is not limited to, nor should it be, to AA and alcohol. The same ideology is applied across the board.
Ironic's picture

Any chance you've got access to them? Or anything that would back up your claim that Bill Wilson legally, under a doctor's care, used LSD as a treatment for depression? No Wikipedia, please.
Pennywise's picture

My personal source is my sponsor... Lol.
"One turned up the other day calling himself Boniface." ~ Bill Wilson
Ironic's picture

You are entitled to your beliefs. I just wanted to clarify that this definition of powerlessness is YOURS, not AA's.

Excuse me, how again is this supposed to be an outside issue?
Trisha K.'s picture

Somewhere in the forums there is a thread detailing Dr. Ruth Fox's work with alcoholics using LSD. Bill was treated by a Dr. Cohen I believe ( could be wrong on the spelling) in 1956. Don't have time right now to research all of this. I hope this helps you.
“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.” Shirley MacLaine
Trisha K.'s picture

The hotel constitutes an outside issue. Throw in 2 women and a 64 year old male and I think this would settle it.
“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.” Shirley MacLaine
Trisha K.'s picture

Thanks for being nice. I still think you do not understand the BB. Most outsiders make the same mistakes. NP.
“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.” Shirley MacLaine
btnben's picture

Aren't "real alcoholics" powerless over people, places and things? Just about covers everything that - not just alcohol. Bill never said anything about being powerless over the NEXT drink. He did say on page 24 of the BB (last line of the italicized section "We are without defense against the first drink"

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

btnben's picture

Wouldn't a 64 year old male AA sponsor paint a different picture? Are you saying the women went along expecting to be propositioned? By a 64 year old male?

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

btnben's picture

This article seems to have a different view to your sponsor. http://www.dosenation.com/listing.php?smlid=4189 This ending comment made me laugh. "LSD is a beautiful thing, but nothing sounds more horrifying to me than a roomful of chain-smoking, frightened, needy drunks tripping their heads off in the basement of the local Y.)"

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Pennywise's picture

The BB says we are powerless over the choice to take the FIRST drink. I can quote later if you don't believe me.
"One turned up the other day calling himself Boniface." ~ Bill Wilson
Clara's picture

I wish I had known about this as I could have asked him about last week at Jamboree. He was the guest speaker.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
live_free_or_die's picture

looking for an ass to kiss. Or maybe he is just an AssHat.
LFOD's Blog http://www.orange-papers.org/forum/blog/10857 ©2014 AA:MyNotGodHasItCovered® http://www.expaa.org/ http://noforcedaa.weebly.com/ http://12stepprograms.weebly.com/ NOT AA: Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS

Well, it's not that difficult. Trolls take over threads, personally attack other posters (and do so regularly), divert the discussion to maddeningly tedious arguments of things that have little to do with the topic. If you merely dissent from the topics at hand, do you really ever need to personally attack people on a regular basis? Ever? Anywhere on the web?

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