I took out an Ad for Smart Recovery- I challenge you ...

One way to beat them at their own game is to promote other choices (not alternatives) to AA/NA. SO I have taken out my very first ad.

I know AA must be exposed and blah blah blah, but We, I can promote Smart, Rational, WFS, SOS and such to enlighten the world that AA is not the only way.

This is the kind of thing that AA did in its early years especially in the 1950's. Marty Mann went around and spoke to the biggest 500 companies in America and she did this promoting AA for the first 5 years of the National Council on Alcoholism. She used this Non profit to promote AA under the guise of "caring".

I plan on not only exposing AA in my Documentary but really highlighting the power of empowering choices that are sane, non religious and CURRENT!!!

If all of us here can write and send letters to professionals. If anyone can take out the smallest ad promoting your favorite choice ...If you can write your own personal horror story and send it to your local newspaper, if you can tell every professional you know about the truth about 12 step we can make change.

I am not stupid. Hollywood seems to be in love with AA. Too many stars have attended and promote it with their shows like Nurse Jackie.

If anyone needs a good letter to send, I had a blogger help me write a really great letter to a Professionals exposing all of this. makeaasafer@gmail.com

JR Harris's picture

Bill Wilson was an adulterous, lying, LSD taking con man who devised a program so that he could have other people take advantage of vulnerable people and give him money. His scripture means nothing and is nothing more that a twisted bunch of lies. If you are going to argue, try using logic which the scripture of AA has none.

~You can not moderate the internet. Just don't lie, steal or make stuff up out of thin air and expect to get away with it without it being pointed out to you. It's really very simple.~

Clara's picture

But you are discussing AA and its literature is where you find why it is what it is. Bill W. used LSD when it was a trial medical treatment for depression. It wasn't as if he was Steve Jobs or Dennis Leary, using LSD recreationally. Now, I agree he was an adulterer. He even inferred so in the Big Book, but he and Lois's marriage is none of my business. Many people have marriages that I don't understand, but the sole one that concerns me is my own.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

JR Harris's picture

Some books make the hit list and make major changes in peoples thought processes. I have one in particular that even has a larger publication volume than AA can even imagine. It was used by people world wide and was called "My Struggle." Many books that at first seem like a good idea, backfire and cause more pain then help, but people still read them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Struggle

Here is another one that you may have heard of:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dianetics

~You can not moderate the internet. Just don't lie, steal or make stuff up out of thin air and expect to get away with it without it being pointed out to you. It's really very simple.~

Timothy Leary was the psychologist who clinically tested LSD for, among other things, alcoholism. Bill W had no qualifications and actually was the one who used it recreationally. Bill W just loved being off his gourd...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Clara's picture

How was it recreationally (as we currently use the term) when it was being tested on him as a treatment for depression? Tim allegedly used a number of things for his personal enjoyment.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Has never been tested on ANYONE as a treatment for depression. If Bill W was taking it clinically, there would be records of when and how much. Timothy Leary has some success with stopping criminals re-offending. The fact that he tried it himself and enjoyed it is well documented. Bill W was just trying to recapture the high he got from the belladonna cure. Chasing that first high - Bill just couldn't stop himself...lol.

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Trisha K.'s picture

There are records out there.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

causeandeffect's picture

Where?

Ironic's picture

Any chance you've got access to them? Or anything that would back up your claim that Bill Wilson legally, under a doctor's care, used LSD as a treatment for depression?

No Wikipedia, please.

Ironic's picture

Unlike Bill Wilson, "champion of sobriety!"

Clara's picture

Some people can use anything and not have it create problems for them. If so, fine. I wasn't one of them.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Ironic's picture

Excuse me, but what makes Bill Wilson's use of LSD different from Steve Jobs or Dennis Leary's?

Aside from the fact that Bill W was pretending to be sober and making money off of other people's misery, that is?

Clara's picture

Because he was using it at a time when it was used for depression treatment. If you read Steve's book. you can find out for yourself why he did it.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Ironic's picture

And when was LSD ever tried on humans for depression in the United States?

Trisha K.'s picture

When Bill was treated by a doctor the year was 1956.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

causeandeffect's picture

His depression? Why would someone who has had a spiritual awakening suffer such a long bout of depression? Shouldn't someone who's seen god be happy and at peace?

Clara's picture

I have worked with people that sufered from crippling depression since the age of nine. They take some pretty strong medications. I have also worked with schiz that took antipychotic drugs. There are people that simply cannot help their body chemistry. I've suffered from depression, too, and have used medications for it. I don't consider that contradictory to being in a fellowship for treatment for alcoholism.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Clara, I agree that taking doctor perscribed meds is not contradictory to being in a fellowship for treatment of alcoholism, and many people in AA agree with that stance. There is, however, another faction of AA that is very anti-medication. I have heard of and witnessed first hand people being advised not to take medications if they want to be truly sober.
AA is just like any other religion. You'll find splinter groups spreading some really wacky and dangerous ideas out there.

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

Clara's picture

I would agree that groups can have their own takes on things. It is a given in the traditions, and that Akron and NY were often at odds. That is why my sponsor always said to go to the literature. That's the difference between program and people. What I have believed about some of these opinions is that if you are taking something to replace drinking, that differs from taking something for a medical condition. I knew people that detoxed on Valium to avoid seizures but only to a limited level. If you are still taking it a year later, you are simply substituting. But I would no more tell a person not to take their legit meds than I would to not take lipator or insulin for diabetes. I am not a doctor and it isn't my role.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Ironic's picture

Can you please give a source for this information? I can't find ANY sources to back up this claim that LSD for depression/mental illness was EVER tested on humans in the US.

The only thing I see is where the govt and CIA dosed people WITHOUT THEIR KNOWLEDGE. They were trying to use it as a weapon of war/truth serum. Never ever as a treatment for depression.

Back up your claims, please.

Clara's picture

My personal source is my spsonsor, but many others have experienced of Bill W. taking LSD for depression treatments. Per my sponsor, Bill W's shrinks Abram Hoffen and Humphrey Osmond introduced him to a therapy including LSD in the 1950's, and it was around 6 treatments.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Pennywise's picture

My personal source is my sponsor...

Lol.

"I will not agree to anything which is opposed to the unity of the Universal Church, no matter who may try to persuade me,..." ~ Oath of Boniface

This article seems to have a different view to your sponsor.

http://www.dosenation.com/listing.php?smlid=4189

This ending comment made me laugh. "LSD is a beautiful thing, but nothing sounds more horrifying to me than a roomful of chain-smoking, frightened, needy drunks tripping their heads off in the basement of the local Y.)"

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Trisha K.'s picture

Somewhere in the forums there is a thread detailing Dr. Ruth Fox's work with alcoholics using LSD.
Bill was treated by a Dr. Cohen I believe ( could be wrong on the spelling) in 1956.
Don't have time right now to research all of this. I hope this helps you.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

Clara's picture

If he was using it for medica purposes, that is permissible in AA and he disclosed it. Steve Jobs explains his in the tome published after his death, and Denis Leary's use was summed up in Gordon Liddy's book, Will. He busted him in Millbrook. Pretty funny event. I rather wished I had been there.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Timothy (not Dennis) Leary's use is well documented in several of his own book. The only one I've read is "The Politics of Ecstacy" - I am a child of those times...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

I heard this left and right in rehab, actually. Just not from the staff (who encouraged us to go to the right meeting in terms of the people there). This was said nonstop from the patients who were already AA. Yes, I meant to say that, the patients who were in the 30 day rehab who were already AA.

Clara's picture

Heard what left and right? And, yes, I know people that relapsed and went into rehab. I wasn't one of them.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

JR Harris's picture

I like how the "free" program of AA has so many relapses that cost around a $1000 a day. How often does this happen in SMART or Rational Recovery? AA it is not so "free" is it? It's called an inversely proportional "Complementary good" in economic models. AA has many inversely proportional "Complementary good(s)". In other words you get what you pay for and since AA is supposedly "free", the complimentary goods of Rehab and counseling take over and it cost a lot more than is expected.

~You can not moderate the internet. Just don't lie, steal or make stuff up out of thin air and expect to get away with it without it being pointed out to you. It's really very simple.~

Clara's picture

I guess when they get out they can try SMART or Rational Recovery then. As I said, I never went to rehab, so I don't know.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Comment posted slightly off. I was replying to Ironic's comment about the bizarre AA vs. NA business amongst (usually, in my experience) AAers. I was referring to AAs in rehab having that attitude, not you, though.

Clara's picture

I wish this forum was a tad bit different. It's hard to keep the responses together.... I can't even keep up with which attitude you meant - lol!

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

JR Harris's picture

What, it he out on a 12 Step call? Looking for Prospects? Does he have any female Sponcee's?

~You can not moderate the internet. Just don't lie, steal or make stuff up out of thin air and expect to get away with it without it being pointed out to you. It's really very simple.~

Clara diverts while her husband rifles his drawers.

shhhh ...

JR Harris's picture

Shhhhh......

~You can not moderate the internet. Just don't lie, steal or make stuff up out of thin air and expect to get away with it without it being pointed out to you. It's really very simple.~

Clara's picture

jealous...

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Clara's picture

Why are you dictating how another should spend her time? My husband has no women sponsees. It was never encouraged where we went to meetings. I lucked into mine as he and his wife are old family friends.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Marietta is the only person who has complained, repeatedly, about the forum format?

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Clara's picture

Then that would be the only similarity. I can't always tell whose remarks are posted in response to what... But I will learn, I am sure.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Clara's picture

But that isn't the same thing as submissive. We don't have to grovel. I am powerless over what alcohol can do to me, and I am as powerless over the behaviors of others as I ever was. But where is it written that you cannot state your position on something or you aren't humble? But I don't have to beat you over the head with it as you are entitled to differ if you choose. I wish I known that simple truth in college....

I met my husband in AA. A few years later, he was divorcing his wife, a fellow AA member that never got sober, always drank and toked. She had an online affair that caused the marriage to end, although he'd be honest with you and say they weren't particularly happy because he wanted a sober spouse. She just went to AA as a court deal from a previous marriage and discovered it helped her find clients for her massage business. When their marriage ended and he was fatuously happy in a new relationship, there were those that felt "compelled" to render an opinion. I didn't owe them explanations about the demise of their marriage or that she lied when she came to meetings. We never outed her affair or badmouthed her. The problem with that high road is that we were unable to address the thread of gossip that our relationship started sooner than what might have seemed proper. But I didn't owe details of our life to them, so I didn't proffer any. Eventually it all came out without our saying anything. To me, THAT is being humble.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

JR Harris's picture

They used it to their advantage. You knew about it, and if you knew, the entire coven knew.......

~You can not moderate the internet. Just don't lie, steal or make stuff up out of thin air and expect to get away with it without it being pointed out to you. It's really very simple.~

Clara's picture

I knew about it because Vince told me about it when he asked me out as I didn't even know they were separated. Stuff like that tends to come up when someone is trying to romance you and are separated - LOL! That's just common sense. But if she had had her way about it, he never would have disclosed that. She would have preferred to just show up one day as a divorcee. But he told her that he intended to have a dating relationship and didn't want any speculation of wrong doing on his part, especially since they went to different meetings.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

JR Harris's picture

couples in a relationship that they should not go to the same meetings together? True this is not always followed and there are many "AA couples" that make the rounds. Do you think that the isolation of the two of them by the coven had anything to do with the breakup. How much time did they spend together? if they both worked at a different place and they both did the usual 20-30 minutes before and after a meeting that takes up 10 hours of the day, leaving only 4 hour a day for them to be together when they weren't sleeping. That 4 hours was also taken up by travel time to and from work, usually an hour for lunch and Sponcee calls during those hours. Of course the relationship was doomed to fail.

I take it you both go to the same meetings and that is why you have stayed together. Or are you playing Russian roulette with this relationship and only spending maybe an hour a day together?

~You can not moderate the internet. Just don't lie, steal or make stuff up out of thin air and expect to get away with it without it being pointed out to you. It's really very simple.~

Clara's picture

I didn't go to rehab so I don't know about that. although I know about the not dating routine for the first year so that you can focus on your revoery. He attended the 5:30 for years before I joined, and he and his wife separate two years after that. We don't consider a meeting to be "date night" and spend a great deal of time together. I also attended other meetings and went to a women's meeting as well.

According to him, they did have disparate schedules but that was due to K being on call until 9:00 as a massage therapist. But the primary issue he had with her was that she used both alcohol and pot while smiling in those meetings she didn't really want to attend. Then facebook came along, and she asked him one day how to locate someone that turned out to be her first ever lover. She caught him at a good time. He was broke, bankrupt, foreclosed on and had gotten a divorce. But he never looked for her all those years, something like 30... My husband is an IT guy and he was getting mixed responses from her, plus he got some facebook messages inadvertantly. So he put spyware on the computer and discovered it went deeper than just some emails to catch up and then you go on with your life. Her new reationship has now ended (Loveboat style dating online changes once you move across country to be together and realize that who looked good at 15 doesn't at 50). But Vince wanted a sober wife, all in all, and that is what he looked for when he started to date, both inside and outside of the rooms.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

JR Harris's picture

Part of being in a cult is only associating with other cult members. If you did try and date outside the cult, what was the reaction of your Sponsor? Were you told it would never work? (classic cult tactic to isolate new members from non cultists)

~You can not moderate the internet. Just don't lie, steal or make stuff up out of thin air and expect to get away with it without it being pointed out to you. It's really very simple.~

Clara's picture

My sponsor, a man (gasp!), didn't care who I dated. Vince dated outside of the rooms, but his requirement was the same. He dated non-drinking/non-using women. They are out there - lol! I dated, too, and Vince was the only in the fellowship. I got tired of dating men that wanted desinated drivers and that behaved as I generally had when I drank. It bored me, and I had moved on from that behavior myself so I also didn't want it in others.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

JR Harris's picture

True it is only a suggestion by many AA groups, but that is a no-no. I take it you didn't do the sexual inventory with your Sponsor?

~You can not moderate the internet. Just don't lie, steal or make stuff up out of thin air and expect to get away with it without it being pointed out to you. It's really very simple.~

Clara's picture

I did my fourth step with his wife and my fifth step with a professional outside of the fellowship.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

JR Harris's picture

You know they talk behind your back, don't you? What is your Husband doing right now? Let's just hope that it isn't any higher than a 12th Step.

~You can not moderate the internet. Just don't lie, steal or make stuff up out of thin air and expect to get away with it without it being pointed out to you. It's really very simple.~

Clara's picture

My sponsor and his wife are both attorneys and are well versed in keeping confidences. My husband is watching a tv show right now. I know what you are suggesting, but he isn't that kind of person. Never was even as an active drinker.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

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