I took out an Ad for Smart Recovery- I challenge you ...

One way to beat them at their own game is to promote other choices (not alternatives) to AA/NA. SO I have taken out my very first ad. I know AA must be exposed and blah blah blah, but We, I can promote Smart, Rational, WFS, SOS and such to enlighten the world that AA is not the only way. This is the kind of thing that AA did in its early years especially in the 1950's. Marty Mann went around and spoke to the biggest 500 companies in America and she did this promoting AA for the first 5 years of the National Council on Alcoholism. She used this Non profit to promote AA under the guise of "caring". I plan on not only exposing AA in my Documentary but really highlighting the power of empowering choices that are sane, non religious and CURRENT!!! If all of us here can write and send letters to professionals. If anyone can take out the smallest ad promoting your favorite choice ...If you can write your own personal horror story and send it to your local newspaper, if you can tell every professional you know about the truth about 12 step we can make change. I am not stupid. Hollywood seems to be in love with AA. Too many stars have attended and promote it with their shows like Nurse Jackie. If anyone needs a good letter to send, I had a blogger help me write a really great letter to a Professionals exposing all of this. makeaasafer@gmail.com
Clara's picture

Anti, your logic makes no sense. I have no reason to lie or to misrepresent myself if I am not Marietta. I think you are being silly.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Clara's picture

How smart do you have to be to just consider that it could be someone else?
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
AntiDenial's picture

it really is beside the point anyway right? The man was in a 12 step program. There is a higher risk for crime at AA meetings or stemming from AA meetings, because of the high percentage of criminals at meetings. It is like arguing that a prison is no different because they are criminals on the outside of prison as well. Except in prison it is 100% criminals and AA meetings some are way over 50%. Much higher than the population in general. Why is it so hard for 12 steppers to do the math? Maybe they need a remedial course in math!

"I welcome all allies in the fight against A.A. hegemony" -Orange

www.leavingaa.com www.expaa.org

NA DAYTONA Violent Criminals Mandated to AA and NA Meetings
http://nadaytona.org/alcoholics-anonymous-votes-no-to-protect-members-from...

JR Harris's picture

couples in a relationship that they should not go to the same meetings together? True this is not always followed and there are many "AA couples" that make the rounds. Do you think that the isolation of the two of them by the coven had anything to do with the breakup. How much time did they spend together? if they both worked at a different place and they both did the usual 20-30 minutes before and after a meeting that takes up 10 hours of the day, leaving only 4 hour a day for them to be together when they weren't sleeping. That 4 hours was also taken up by travel time to and from work, usually an hour for lunch and Sponcee calls during those hours. Of course the relationship was doomed to fail. I take it you both go to the same meetings and that is why you have stayed together. Or are you playing Russian roulette with this relationship and only spending maybe an hour a day together?

~You can not moderate the truth. Just don't lie, steal or make stuff up out of thin air and expect to get away with it without it being pointed out to you. It's really very simple.~

Clara's picture

You've got to be kidding me. Where I got sober, singleness of purpose was very obvious and well learned. Read page 142 in Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions. Now, of course, this is just what I have encountered in El Paso. Many of these are open meetings and anyone can attend. There is a great deal of dual addiction, and they do not adhere to what I had previously experienced - in AA you discuss alcohol problems. In NA, you discuss the other. But I find it interesting that you've never understood why Alcoholic Anonymous is call Alcoholics Anonymous verses Avocado Anonymous or Apples Anonymous or... Fuuuuunny.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
JR Harris's picture

Bill Wilson was an adulterous, lying, LSD taking con man who devised a program so that he could have other people take advantage of vulnerable people and give him money. His scripture means nothing and is nothing more that a twisted bunch of lies. If you are going to argue, try using logic which the scripture of AA has none.

~You can not moderate the truth. Just don't lie, steal or make stuff up out of thin air and expect to get away with it without it being pointed out to you. It's really very simple.~

Clara's picture

I didn't go to rehab so I don't know about that. although I know about the not dating routine for the first year so that you can focus on your revoery. He attended the 5:30 for years before I joined, and he and his wife separate two years after that. We don't consider a meeting to be "date night" and spend a great deal of time together. I also attended other meetings and went to a women's meeting as well. According to him, they did have disparate schedules but that was due to K being on call until 9:00 as a massage therapist. But the primary issue he had with her was that she used both alcohol and pot while smiling in those meetings she didn't really want to attend. Then facebook came along, and she asked him one day how to locate someone that turned out to be her first ever lover. She caught him at a good time. He was broke, bankrupt, foreclosed on and had gotten a divorce. But he never looked for her all those years, something like 30... My husband is an IT guy and he was getting mixed responses from her, plus he got some facebook messages inadvertantly. So he put spyware on the computer and discovered it went deeper than just some emails to catch up and then you go on with your life. Her new reationship has now ended (Loveboat style dating online changes once you move across country to be together and realize that who looked good at 15 doesn't at 50). But Vince wanted a sober wife, all in all, and that is what he looked for when he started to date, both inside and outside of the rooms.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Trisha K.'s picture

http://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/lake/merrillville/m-ville-man-gets-li... M'ville man gets life without parole for murder of KFC manager.
“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.” Shirley MacLaine
Clara's picture

I am not sure if it is a remedial in math or an understanding of the 3 tradition. They aren't going to turn someone away simply because of a crimina background. I would never lend money to most anyone, realy, but no one in the rooms as a general precaution. Granted, some people become friends "outside" and that miht be different. I've become friends with others and helped them through cancer treatment, and just became friends generaly, even though our paths might not have crossed otherwise. But I had that happen in a hobby class. Had it not been for a mutual interest, I wouldn't have met those people, either.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
JR Harris's picture

Part of being in a cult is only associating with other cult members. If you did try and date outside the cult, what was the reaction of your Sponsor? Were you told it would never work? (classic cult tactic to isolate new members from non cultists)

~You can not moderate the truth. Just don't lie, steal or make stuff up out of thin air and expect to get away with it without it being pointed out to you. It's really very simple.~

Clara's picture

But you are discussing AA and its literature is where you find why it is what it is. Bill W. used LSD when it was a trial medical treatment for depression. It wasn't as if he was Steve Jobs or Dennis Leary, using LSD recreationally. Now, I agree he was an adulterer. He even inferred so in the Big Book, but he and Lois's marriage is none of my business. Many people have marriages that I don't understand, but the sole one that concerns me is my own.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
AntiDenial's picture

The point is, AA states that the rooms are just a microcosm of society. If you do the math that is just wrong. They are trying to give people a false sense of security, that has cost many lives.

"I welcome all allies in the fight against A.A. hegemony" -Orange

www.leavingaa.com www.expaa.org

NA DAYTONA Violent Criminals Mandated to AA and NA Meetings
http://nadaytona.org/alcoholics-anonymous-votes-no-to-protect-members-from...

Clara's picture

My sponsor, a man (gasp!), didn't care who I dated. Vince dated outside of the rooms, but his requirement was the same. He dated non-drinking/non-using women. They are out there - lol! I dated, too, and Vince was the only in the fellowship. I got tired of dating men that wanted desinated drivers and that behaved as I generally had when I drank. It bored me, and I had moved on from that behavior myself so I also didn't want it in others.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
btnben's picture

The last few weeks have, maybe, made us a little over-sensitive in the trolldar department. If I'm wrong, it won't be the first time I've eaten humble pie...lol. Clara has a different pov to the majority on here, but she has conducted herself with good manners and decorum. Perhaps a little bit of innocent until proven guilty wouldn't go amiss. (Jesus - did I type that?...lol)

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

JR Harris's picture

Some books make the hit list and make major changes in peoples thought processes. I have one in particular that even has a larger publication volume than AA can even imagine. It was used by people world wide and was called "My Struggle." Many books that at first seem like a good idea, backfire and cause more pain then help, but people still read them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Struggle Here is another one that you may have heard of: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dianetics

~You can not moderate the truth. Just don't lie, steal or make stuff up out of thin air and expect to get away with it without it being pointed out to you. It's really very simple.~

Clara's picture

Yes, AA mirrors society as do all the A programs. To me, what you are pointing out isn't that there are crooks in AA, but that alcoholic behavior contributes to criminal behavior. I was a habitual drunk driver. But, guess what? I no longer am a drunk driver, but I am an alcoholic that should have a criminal record.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
JR Harris's picture

True it is only a suggestion by many AA groups, but that is a no-no. I take it you didn't do the sexual inventory with your Sponsor?

~You can not moderate the truth. Just don't lie, steal or make stuff up out of thin air and expect to get away with it without it being pointed out to you. It's really very simple.~

AntiDenial's picture

AA mirrors the criminal element of society. Not society itself. Especially since the courts started mandating AA, and AA started courting the courts.

"I welcome all allies in the fight against A.A. hegemony" -Orange

www.leavingaa.com www.expaa.org

NA DAYTONA Violent Criminals Mandated to AA and NA Meetings
http://nadaytona.org/alcoholics-anonymous-votes-no-to-protect-members-from...

JR Harris's picture

Why don't you try quoting the Ten Commandments instead? Of course AA blatantly breaks many of the Ten Commandments. I don't care what tradition 3 says and "The only requirement for AA membership is a desire to stop drinking" is BS.

~You can not moderate the truth. Just don't lie, steal or make stuff up out of thin air and expect to get away with it without it being pointed out to you. It's really very simple.~

Clara's picture

I did my fourth step with his wife and my fifth step with a professional outside of the fellowship.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Clara's picture

Well, we are talking about AA, aren't we? Why wouldn't I discuss its published stance on something? Now, if you want biblical references... Alcoholic Victorious could give you the steps of AA in biblical form. Their steps don't vary all that much. It's al basically the 8 beatitudes with 4 more steps tossed in for measure.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
JR Harris's picture

KFC is more prolific than AA is. Well you did find one instance, but you forgot to mention that it was the manger of the Restaurant who was killed and he was being robbed in 2007. How many instances of this type can you find in AA franchises, which are a fraction of the size? Then compare them with this site: http://nadaytona.org You are much safer going with the KFC cure for Alcoholism than AA.

~You can not moderate the truth. Just don't lie, steal or make stuff up out of thin air and expect to get away with it without it being pointed out to you. It's really very simple.~

JR Harris's picture

You know they talk behind your back, don't you? What is your Husband doing right now? Let's just hope that it isn't any higher than a 12th Step.

~You can not moderate the truth. Just don't lie, steal or make stuff up out of thin air and expect to get away with it without it being pointed out to you. It's really very simple.~

I heard this left and right in rehab, actually. Just not from the staff (who encouraged us to go to the right meeting in terms of the people there). This was said nonstop from the patients who were already AA. Yes, I meant to say that, the patients who were in the 30 day rehab who were already AA.
Clara's picture

My sponsor and his wife are both attorneys and are well versed in keeping confidences. My husband is watching a tv show right now. I know what you are suggesting, but he isn't that kind of person. Never was even as an active drinker.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Apologies ahead of time if I turn out to be wrong, of course. Hopefully I am completely wrong, and you, Clara, think the mere idea of wishing harm to someone's hypothetical unborn children is an egregiously unforgivable thing to do on a web forum.
btnben's picture

Timothy Leary was the psychologist who clinically tested LSD for, among other things, alcoholism. Bill W had no qualifications and actually was the one who used it recreationally. Bill W just loved being off his gourd...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

btnben's picture

......Marietta tonight?...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

AntiDenial's picture

I know Ben-Clara sounds so much like Marietta trying to be on good behavior. But I will keep an open mind, but we have not heard from Marietta have we? I have known many trolls when they come back try to be at least to be a tad different. Even with typos. But anyway time will tell.

"I welcome all allies in the fight against A.A. hegemony" -Orange

www.leavingaa.com www.expaa.org

NA DAYTONA Violent Criminals Mandated to AA and NA Meetings
http://nadaytona.org/alcoholics-anonymous-votes-no-to-protect-members-from...

btnben's picture

I can see both sides. I agree with you in part. M & Clara have such similar outlooks, I'm surprised they're not chatting away together. Only time will tell.

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Clara's picture

AA refers to itself as a microchasm of society. Now, that was as it was written many years ago. You can't necessarily hold AA or any A responsible for courts sending people there, even Cindy McCain. I am sure she would have preferred not to go to NA. I know many people outside of the rooms that believe as a society we should help these people verses imprison them. But you can't sentence someone to Betty Ford. Most people can afford AA. I know people that do not agree with the practice and whose group conscience is NOT to sign court papterwork. People that are doing their probation honestly then move on to other meetings where they can get signatures. Some just avoid it by not going at all and signing their own paperwork. Still, I have never been concerned in a room about my physical safety.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Clara's picture

How was it recreationally (as we currently use the term) when it was being tested on him as a treatment for depression? Tim allegedly used a number of things for his personal enjoyment.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Clara's picture

Heard what left and right? And, yes, I know people that relapsed and went into rehab. I wasn't one of them.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Ironic's picture

Excuse me, but what makes Bill Wilson's use of LSD different from Steve Jobs or Dennis Leary's? Aside from the fact that Bill W was pretending to be sober and making money off of other people's misery, that is?
AntiDenial's picture

What are you talking about? AA STILL states and thinks that AA is a microcosm of society. Yes AA can be held responsible for the criminals in AA because they go to the jails and the courts and bring them to the meetings.

"I welcome all allies in the fight against A.A. hegemony" -Orange

www.leavingaa.com www.expaa.org

NA DAYTONA Violent Criminals Mandated to AA and NA Meetings
http://nadaytona.org/alcoholics-anonymous-votes-no-to-protect-members-from...

btnben's picture

Has never been tested on ANYONE as a treatment for depression. If Bill W was taking it clinically, there would be records of when and how much. Timothy Leary has some success with stopping criminals re-offending. The fact that he tried it himself and enjoyed it is well documented. Bill W was just trying to recapture the high he got from the belladonna cure. Chasing that first high - Bill just couldn't stop himself...lol.

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Clara's picture

What on earth are you talking about?
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Clara's not Marietta. She's in Perplexity's entourage, I suspect.
"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."
btnben's picture

Clara - Have you got bi-polar and a Grammy?

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Ironic's picture

Unlike Bill Wilson, "champion of sobriety!"
JR Harris's picture

"Social engineering, in the context of security, is understood to mean the art of manipulating people into performing actions or divulging confidential information.[1] While it is similar to a confidence trick or simple fraud, the term typically applies to trickery or deception for the purpose of information gathering, fraud, or computer system access; in most cases the attacker never comes face-to-face with the victims. "Social engineering" as an act of psychological manipulation was popularized by hacker-turned-consultant Kevin Mitnick. The term had previously been associated with the social sciences, but its usage has caught on among computer professionals.[2]" Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_engineering_%28security%29 We are a little gun shy.......

~You can not moderate the truth. Just don't lie, steal or make stuff up out of thin air and expect to get away with it without it being pointed out to you. It's really very simple.~

Trisha K.'s picture

I could post additional links. I didn't because it is kind of morbid. AA does not have as many cases of violent confrontations inside their home groups. Think about it? Many of the meeting are inside churches. I think you are presuming this because it coincides with your theory of AA being inundated with violent offenders.
“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.” Shirley MacLaine
Clara's picture

No, not bipolar, no Grammy, and I don't know anyone on this forum. But Perse's post was simply bizarre.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
AntiDenial's picture

He is quoting from Marietta, Marietta.

"I welcome all allies in the fight against A.A. hegemony" -Orange

www.leavingaa.com www.expaa.org

NA DAYTONA Violent Criminals Mandated to AA and NA Meetings
http://nadaytona.org/alcoholics-anonymous-votes-no-to-protect-members-from...

JR Harris's picture

I like how the "free" program of AA has so many relapses that cost around a $1000 a day. How often does this happen in SMART or Rational Recovery? AA it is not so "free" is it? It's called an inversely proportional "Complementary good" in economic models. AA has many inversely proportional "Complementary good(s)". In other words you get what you pay for and since AA is supposedly "free", the complimentary goods of Rehab and counseling take over and it cost a lot more than is expected.

~You can not moderate the truth. Just don't lie, steal or make stuff up out of thin air and expect to get away with it without it being pointed out to you. It's really very simple.~

Clara's picture

Well, gollllly!
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
JR Harris's picture

You will find that you have no statistical or factual data to stand on.

~You can not moderate the truth. Just don't lie, steal or make stuff up out of thin air and expect to get away with it without it being pointed out to you. It's really very simple.~

Clara's picture

Well, I admit to praying to Saint Francis, the patron saint of companion animals that my little friend be comfortable for he rest of his days. I am afraid that despite where and how hard I look, brain cancer is just insidious.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Clara's picture

I think they tend to put themselves down. If you decide that the drink or drug is for you, then have at it. But that doesn't mean prgram failure. It means the person chose use over sobriety.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Clara's picture

What does it have to do with attacking unborn children?
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Ironic's picture

If you decide that drinking or using is for you, it doesn't mean program failure. However, if a person ever sets foot inside a meeting, AA made them sober. Interesting how that works..
JR Harris's picture

That is pretty morbid. So not only does AA give you a fake made up disease to fund the philandering life of an unemployable adulterous Bill Wilson, but they give you voodoo made up medicine to cure it at about $1000 a day. Wow, what a business plan! Then when they kill you, they just say you didn't follow the program! Flawless way to bilk anyone and everyone that is unfortunate enough to fall prey to the prospect hunters of AA!

~You can not moderate the truth. Just don't lie, steal or make stuff up out of thin air and expect to get away with it without it being pointed out to you. It's really very simple.~

Clara's picture

I think AA can give people the tools for sobriety, but people are often told that you cannot get someone sober nor can you make them drink. AA has helped me maintain sobriety, but I was sober for 30 days before I ever went to a meeting. But if you choose drinking or using once you know there are alternatives and a way to reach it, it's on you. Not rocket science. I was surprised at the number of people that came into the rooms after me that has never heard of AA. I just knew that I couldn't maintain it alone and wouldn't choose to... While I had heard of AA and knew people that had gone, I didn't really know what it was about... I don't think it is an inaccurate statement to say that AA has helped keep me sober.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Clara's picture

Well, I read in the paper once about a guy that held up an AA meeting for the basket take and was killed by a licensed gunn carrying member... That's about it.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Clara's picture

No, they take meetings TO the jails. If a person gets out of jail and comes to a meeting, that is his/her choice.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
causeandeffect's picture

Hmmm, I didn’t want to believe Marietta would create a sock, but her absence is suspicious. My opinion was that she is far too proud to take anything from the profoundly ignorant danny’s playbook, but now I’m not so sure. Speaking of the profoundly ignorant danny, he left me a cryptic message that he was indeed perplexity, along with a veiled threat on another site. It took a minute to hit me, but check it out… http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=8046762&postcount=6573 Still, I don’t want to be too paranoid that every stepper that comes here to defend their faith is a puppet.
"The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves." ~Dresden James

Comment posted slightly off. I was replying to Ironic's comment about the bizarre AA vs. NA business amongst (usually, in my experience) AAers. I was referring to AAs in rehab having that attitude, not you, though.
AntiDenial's picture

You are not being paranoid. I am pretty sure Clara= Marietta. Wack a mole-troll................ Lets not feed the trolls.

"I welcome all allies in the fight against A.A. hegemony" -Orange

www.leavingaa.com www.expaa.org

NA DAYTONA Violent Criminals Mandated to AA and NA Meetings
http://nadaytona.org/alcoholics-anonymous-votes-no-to-protect-members-from...

LMAO....that has to be the ultimate pick-up line. "Hey, baby, got bi-polar and a grammy and come here often?" Ahhhh....sorry...goofy tonight.

It's horrible, isn't it? For someone to do that on a forum? I was shocked, personally.
Clara's picture

Because he was using it at a time when it was used for depression treatment. If you read Steve's book. you can find out for yourself why he did it.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Clara's picture

I guess when they get out they can try SMART or Rational Recovery then. As I said, I never went to rehab, so I don't know.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Either way, guys, we're all still talking about Marietta. Dammit.
Clara's picture

I wish this forum was a tad bit different. It's hard to keep the responses together.... I can't even keep up with which attitude you meant - lol!
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
JR Harris's picture

What, it he out on a 12 Step call? Looking for Prospects? Does he have any female Sponcee's?

~You can not moderate the truth. Just don't lie, steal or make stuff up out of thin air and expect to get away with it without it being pointed out to you. It's really very simple.~

causeandeffect's picture

Clara, why are you here?
"The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves." ~Dresden James

Clara diverts while her husband rifles his drawers. shhhh ...

could it be? PISsed off (Persecution Insistence Syndrome): If she's not out to get you, that's a certain sign that she's out to get you. LEM (Law of the Excluded Marietta): Denying one is marietta proves one is marietta.
JR Harris's picture

Shhhhh......

~You can not moderate the truth. Just don't lie, steal or make stuff up out of thin air and expect to get away with it without it being pointed out to you. It's really very simple.~

Ironic's picture

A ban on talking about m*******. We should be enjoying our "private time," guys. l0l@PiE

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