I took out an Ad for Smart Recovery- I challenge you ...

One way to beat them at their own game is to promote other choices (not alternatives) to AA/NA. SO I have taken out my very first ad. I know AA must be exposed and blah blah blah, but We, I can promote Smart, Rational, WFS, SOS and such to enlighten the world that AA is not the only way. This is the kind of thing that AA did in its early years especially in the 1950's. Marty Mann went around and spoke to the biggest 500 companies in America and she did this promoting AA for the first 5 years of the National Council on Alcoholism. She used this Non profit to promote AA under the guise of "caring". I plan on not only exposing AA in my Documentary but really highlighting the power of empowering choices that are sane, non religious and CURRENT!!! If all of us here can write and send letters to professionals. If anyone can take out the smallest ad promoting your favorite choice ...If you can write your own personal horror story and send it to your local newspaper, if you can tell every professional you know about the truth about 12 step we can make change. I am not stupid. Hollywood seems to be in love with AA. Too many stars have attended and promote it with their shows like Nurse Jackie. If anyone needs a good letter to send, I had a blogger help me write a really great letter to a Professionals exposing all of this. makeaasafer@gmail.com

My research is showing, so far, that Marietta Davis (who is almost always online here when I check in) isn't on so far when you are, Clara. Just my $.02 for the moment.
Clara's picture

Well, gollllly!
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

If you took 100 doctors, 100 policemen, 100 judges or just 100 people at random and asked them what the self-help answer to a drinking problem was, I bet that 90% plus would say AA. If asked for alternatives, I reckon 90% of that 90 % wouldn't know any. AA is the default with very little knowledge of any alternatives. Addition : I originally typed "intrenched" rather than "entrenched". M would have had my nuts in a vice in nano-seconds...lol
God damn it, get me a whiskey Bill W, Deathbed http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
Clara's picture

And you could be right. What I am basing my remarks on is the "stranglehold" as if AA somehow has something to do with that beyond just great brand equity due to its age. I don't believe there is deliberate effort on its part to crowd out other opportunities for recovery. And there are some. But AA will always be first in the phone book, and its been around for over 70 years, plus most people know of someone that has been in it...
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Wisdom is a scarce commodity around here where victimhood is the main virtue. Advocacy of AA is dismissed out of hand, but, by maintaining composure and commonsense, the worst you'll endure is derision, contempt, and sundry nastiness. Doctors are too lazy or busy to honor their Hippocratic Oath, politicians and government employees are bought by the vast AA lobby, and its always someone else's fault. Suggesting contrary views with less than abject humility or abstruse subtlety will apparently merit banning and sometimes, as with your persona, paranoid accusations. Have fun!
JR Harris's picture

Isn't that what Alcoholics Anonymous does when the faith healing and voodoo magic of Bill Wilson doesn't work? I guess you could try chanting the 12 and 12 a few times over to your pet to see if it works. If you do it with enough pets and 5% of them survive, you have found a cure. You could become famous and have shrines given to you like Bill Wilson did with Stepping Stones.

~You can not moderate the truth. Just don't lie, steal or make stuff up out of thin air and expect to get away with it without it being pointed out to you. It's really very simple.~

Clara's picture

Well, I admit to praying to Saint Francis, the patron saint of companion animals that my little friend be comfortable for he rest of his days. I am afraid that despite where and how hard I look, brain cancer is just insidious.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
JR Harris's picture

That is pretty morbid. So not only does AA give you a fake made up disease to fund the philandering life of an unemployable adulterous Bill Wilson, but they give you voodoo made up medicine to cure it at about $1000 a day. Wow, what a business plan! Then when they kill you, they just say you didn't follow the program! Flawless way to bilk anyone and everyone that is unfortunate enough to fall prey to the prospect hunters of AA!

~You can not moderate the truth. Just don't lie, steal or make stuff up out of thin air and expect to get away with it without it being pointed out to you. It's really very simple.~

Clara's picture

I think they tend to put themselves down. If you decide that the drink or drug is for you, then have at it. But that doesn't mean prgram failure. It means the person chose use over sobriety.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Ironic's picture

If you decide that drinking or using is for you, it doesn't mean program failure. However, if a person ever sets foot inside a meeting, AA made them sober. Interesting how that works..
Clara's picture

I think AA can give people the tools for sobriety, but people are often told that you cannot get someone sober nor can you make them drink. AA has helped me maintain sobriety, but I was sober for 30 days before I ever went to a meeting. But if you choose drinking or using once you know there are alternatives and a way to reach it, it's on you. Not rocket science. I was surprised at the number of people that came into the rooms after me that has never heard of AA. I just knew that I couldn't maintain it alone and wouldn't choose to... While I had heard of AA and knew people that had gone, I didn't really know what it was about... I don't think it is an inaccurate statement to say that AA has helped keep me sober.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

I thought AA preaches we are powerless over alcohol. Doesn't that mean we have no choice in drinking? There will come that (mythical) blind spot when we just can't help ourselves? We are doomed unless we find cult religion?
God damn it, get me a whiskey Bill W, Deathbed http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
Clara's picture

I am powerless over what booze does to me. I never can gauge if I will have one or five. I don't have that kind of control. But I can decide if I pick up that first one. And I did occasionally stop at one or two, generally if I had one it would go to two if for no other reason than I used credit cards and you coldn't charge just one - oh, the logic! But I was a binge drinker for the most part. If I started, I generally didn't stop until I was over the bend.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Ben, that was one of the most contradictory things I heard when I entered "the program". It wasn't my fault, I had a disease, I was powerless, yet I was making "bad choices". What? I understand the concept, the idea that addicts and alcoholics are so faulty in their thinking as to require guidance to make just about any choice, which is what frankly started offending me so much (me and ideas of social control don't work very well together). But to do that while also suggesting there is no ability to choose was just comprehensible to me. Perhaps because it is just so cult-like in nature. "You are powerless, you make terminally bad decisions on your own, therefore declare your powerlessness, never fight again in your life and let us make your decisions for you." Um, no.
Trisha K.'s picture

This occurs after the alcohol is ingested. There maybe a misunderstanding here concerning AA's definition of powerlessness.
“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.” Shirley MacLaine
Ironic's picture

"This occurs after the alcohol is ingested. There maybe a misunderstanding here concerning AA's definition of powerlessness." Where and when does AA define powerlessness this way? Or is this Trisha K.'s definition of powerlessness as opposed to AA's?
Trisha K.'s picture

I am not sure I can help you. I am one of the "exceptions". I am a real alcoholic. When I read the BB I understood from Bill's story that when he drank Bill became powerless over the next drink. I related to this inability to stop. As far as the rest of my life choices I do not feel powerless after I act on them. That's not true love can make me feel powerless sometimes but I enjoy that feeling...lol.
“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.” Shirley MacLaine
Ironic's picture

You are entitled to your beliefs. I just wanted to clarify that this definition of powerlessness is YOURS, not AA's.
Trisha K.'s picture

Thanks for being nice. I still think you do not understand the BB. Most outsiders make the same mistakes. NP.
“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.” Shirley MacLaine
Pennywise's picture

The BB says we are powerless over the choice to take the FIRST drink. I can quote later if you don't believe me.
Have you listened to your Arnold ZeDVille today? http://www.reverbnation.com/arnoldzedville/songs

Aren't "real alcoholics" powerless over people, places and things? Just about covers everything that - not just alcohol. Bill never said anything about being powerless over the NEXT drink. He did say on page 24 of the BB (last line of the italicized section "We are without defense against the first drink"
God damn it, get me a whiskey Bill W, Deathbed http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Honestly, it doesn't matter much what is taught at the top or even written by AA when in practice these ideas are being taught to others by people who perhaps DO misunderstand the official definitions. Even in rehab the various counselors have different takes on this notion, and they do apply it (as do people in group sessions) to stories of your life and everyone else's. This gets diluted even further in meetings, IMO. I'd also like to stress, yet again, that this is discussion is not limited to, nor should it be, to AA and alcohol. The same ideology is applied across the board.

Sorry if I am incorrect. The comebacks just seem so similar without the vulgarity. Like a Marietta trying to be on good behavior.

"I welcome all allies in the fight against A.A. hegemony" -Orange

www.expaa.org EXPOSE AA

NA DAYTONA- Violent Criminals Being Mandated to AA and NA Meetings
http://nadaytona.org/alcoholics-anonymous-votes-no-to-protect-members-from...

Clara's picture

Anti, I learned in AA not to bother with arguing. Believe what you choose to, but I have no reason to lie or to misrepresent myself. Your apology is accepted.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
JR Harris's picture

How did those traits treat you with AA? I'm just asking, because first off many AA members are anything but humble and when it comes to cornering a prospect by manipulating their friends and family, they are anything but powerless. What do you think of those AA members? You know, the Big mouths that cause trouble in peoples relationships? I know you have met some.

~You can not moderate the truth. Just don't lie, steal or make stuff up out of thin air and expect to get away with it without it being pointed out to you. It's really very simple.~

Clara's picture

I don't have to look solely to AA members to find people like that! Anything you can find in society, you'll find in AA. But it isn't about their behavior, it is about how I handle what comes my way. I also don't corner anyone. You either want it or you don't, and want to know me via what I say in meetings. Not worth my time otherwise...
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
JR Harris's picture

How many financial scams, rapes and murders do you see at grocery or restaurant chains? I have never seen a court order anyone to a attend weird rituals at a Kentucky Friend Chicken franchise, but there are major databases being built on these CURRENT problems happening at AA franchises (did I mention that AA franchises are legal corporations). If this stuff was happening at the frequency it is happening with the AA corporations, KFC would be out of business in no time. One very nicely built database of current problems in Alcoholics Anonymous: http://nadaytona.org

~You can not moderate the truth. Just don't lie, steal or make stuff up out of thin air and expect to get away with it without it being pointed out to you. It's really very simple.~

Clara's picture

You don't have any control over the court ordered bit. And AA has never turned away anyone for criminal wrong doings, so yes, I supposed you'd find robbers, rapists, pickpockets... in an AA meeting just as you might see them in a line at KFC. Interestingly, though, I have heard of groups that refuse to sign the sheets, citing attraction verses promotion, and those parties then move on to different meetings. I haven't heard of an AA franchise. What is it precisely?
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
JR Harris's picture

Kentucky Fried Chicken has over 14,000 franchises worldwide and has many more customers than AA has and it is 1000's of times safer. The it's not AA's fault excuse doesn't fly here. It may fly at AA Spiritual, not Religious rituals that usually end with the Lords of Serenity prayer, but not with anyone who has any common sense that hasn't been conned by the disciples of Bill Wilson. AA is a franchise and incorporated. Many groups are incorporated, the Intergroups have to be as well as the districts and area managers. They all follow instructions from the AA corporate offices at the Interchurch Center at 475 Riverside Drive in New York. I can provide detailed tax returns to prove this for any US based organized area. Including the legal names of the people allowing this stuff to happen on their watch. Franchising is the practice of using another firm's successful business model. The word 'franchise' is of anglo-French derivation - from franc - meaning free, and is used both as a noun and as a (transitive) verb.[1] For the franchisor, the franchise is an alternative to building 'chain stores' to distribute goods and avoid the need for investments and liability for a chain. The franchisor's success depends on the success of the franchisees. The franchisee is said to have a greater incentive than a direct employee because he or she has a direct stake in the business." Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franchising "

~You can not moderate the truth. Just don't lie, steal or make stuff up out of thin air and expect to get away with it without it being pointed out to you. It's really very simple.~

Trisha K.'s picture

http://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/lake/merrillville/m-ville-man-gets-li... M'ville man gets life without parole for murder of KFC manager.
“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.” Shirley MacLaine
JR Harris's picture

KFC is more prolific than AA is. Well you did find one instance, but you forgot to mention that it was the manger of the Restaurant who was killed and he was being robbed in 2007. How many instances of this type can you find in AA franchises, which are a fraction of the size? Then compare them with this site: http://nadaytona.org You are much safer going with the KFC cure for Alcoholism than AA.

~You can not moderate the truth. Just don't lie, steal or make stuff up out of thin air and expect to get away with it without it being pointed out to you. It's really very simple.~

Trisha K.'s picture

I could post additional links. I didn't because it is kind of morbid. AA does not have as many cases of violent confrontations inside their home groups. Think about it? Many of the meeting are inside churches. I think you are presuming this because it coincides with your theory of AA being inundated with violent offenders.
“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.” Shirley MacLaine
JR Harris's picture

You will find that you have no statistical or factual data to stand on.

~You can not moderate the truth. Just don't lie, steal or make stuff up out of thin air and expect to get away with it without it being pointed out to you. It's really very simple.~

Clara's picture

Well, I read in the paper once about a guy that held up an AA meeting for the basket take and was killed by a licensed gunn carrying member... That's about it.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Clara's picture

I don't have familarity with this. While both my husband and I served as treasurers for our various groups, we sent monies to area, district, and NY. I have no idea about franchises at all, although I understand franchises because we own a few Village Inns.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Clara's picture

The article you cited is something of an issue - he came to AA after ODing on cocaine. In my neck of the woods, that would have been a problem to begin with. He should have been NA's problem. As I said, what you'll find in society will be mirrored in AA.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Ironic's picture

I think it's funny that Clara brings this up. "he should have been NAs problem." At every meeting I ever went to, they told me "alcoholic = addict" or "just replace the word "alcohol" with 'drugs.' it's the same program." OPF is the first place I ever heard the argument from AA members that AA was solely for alcoholics and NA solely for drug addicts. Weiiiiird

it really is beside the point anyway right? The man was in a 12 step program. There is a higher risk for crime at AA meetings or stemming from AA meetings, because of the high percentage of criminals at meetings. It is like arguing that a prison is no different because they are criminals on the outside of prison as well. Except in prison it is 100% criminals and AA meetings some are way over 50%. Much higher than the population in general. Why is it so hard for 12 steppers to do the math? Maybe they need a remedial course in math!

"I welcome all allies in the fight against A.A. hegemony" -Orange

www.expaa.org EXPOSE AA

NA DAYTONA- Violent Criminals Being Mandated to AA and NA Meetings
http://nadaytona.org/alcoholics-anonymous-votes-no-to-protect-members-from...

Clara's picture

I am not sure if it is a remedial in math or an understanding of the 3 tradition. They aren't going to turn someone away simply because of a crimina background. I would never lend money to most anyone, realy, but no one in the rooms as a general precaution. Granted, some people become friends "outside" and that miht be different. I've become friends with others and helped them through cancer treatment, and just became friends generaly, even though our paths might not have crossed otherwise. But I had that happen in a hobby class. Had it not been for a mutual interest, I wouldn't have met those people, either.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

The point is, AA states that the rooms are just a microcosm of society. If you do the math that is just wrong. They are trying to give people a false sense of security, that has cost many lives.

"I welcome all allies in the fight against A.A. hegemony" -Orange

www.expaa.org EXPOSE AA

NA DAYTONA- Violent Criminals Being Mandated to AA and NA Meetings
http://nadaytona.org/alcoholics-anonymous-votes-no-to-protect-members-from...

Clara's picture

Yes, AA mirrors society as do all the A programs. To me, what you are pointing out isn't that there are crooks in AA, but that alcoholic behavior contributes to criminal behavior. I was a habitual drunk driver. But, guess what? I no longer am a drunk driver, but I am an alcoholic that should have a criminal record.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

AA mirrors the criminal element of society. Not society itself. Especially since the courts started mandating AA, and AA started courting the courts.

"I welcome all allies in the fight against A.A. hegemony" -Orange

www.expaa.org EXPOSE AA

NA DAYTONA- Violent Criminals Being Mandated to AA and NA Meetings
http://nadaytona.org/alcoholics-anonymous-votes-no-to-protect-members-from...

Clara's picture

AA refers to itself as a microchasm of society. Now, that was as it was written many years ago. You can't necessarily hold AA or any A responsible for courts sending people there, even Cindy McCain. I am sure she would have preferred not to go to NA. I know many people outside of the rooms that believe as a society we should help these people verses imprison them. But you can't sentence someone to Betty Ford. Most people can afford AA. I know people that do not agree with the practice and whose group conscience is NOT to sign court papterwork. People that are doing their probation honestly then move on to other meetings where they can get signatures. Some just avoid it by not going at all and signing their own paperwork. Still, I have never been concerned in a room about my physical safety.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

What are you talking about? AA STILL states and thinks that AA is a microcosm of society. Yes AA can be held responsible for the criminals in AA because they go to the jails and the courts and bring them to the meetings.

"I welcome all allies in the fight against A.A. hegemony" -Orange

www.expaa.org EXPOSE AA

NA DAYTONA- Violent Criminals Being Mandated to AA and NA Meetings
http://nadaytona.org/alcoholics-anonymous-votes-no-to-protect-members-from...

Clara's picture

No, they take meetings TO the jails. If a person gets out of jail and comes to a meeting, that is his/her choice.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

No, they are told by AA to go to a meeting the first day out of jail. They also offer to drive them as well. They go to Drug Courts and give a sales pitch to keep the courts bringing them clients that will buy the big book etc.

"I welcome all allies in the fight against A.A. hegemony" -Orange

www.expaa.org EXPOSE AA

NA DAYTONA- Violent Criminals Being Mandated to AA and NA Meetings
http://nadaytona.org/alcoholics-anonymous-votes-no-to-protect-members-from...

Clara's picture

Unless they are mandated by the court to go, they can always refuse. If part of rehabilitation so that you can become a respectable citizen again includes alcohol treatment, then why should that be a problem? I don't know anyone that has gone to a judge to ask that AA be part of a sentence, but I do know judges that are in the fellowship. AA itself is a suggestion only. I know people in custody court that have been told to receive treatment for respective issues, but I don't know them to specifically state that it has to be AA. Having said this, I have seen and even signed probation slips. I don't know the process that causes taht to be included, but I also don't care. My sponsor's practice of criminal law sees 90% of his casework involving charges because someone was either driving while high or drunk, beating their spouse after stopping at the bar, or embezzling funds to support a drug or gambling habit. He's supportive of any 12 step that could aid in alleviating the behavior.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
JR Harris's picture

Why don't you try quoting the Ten Commandments instead? Of course AA blatantly breaks many of the Ten Commandments. I don't care what tradition 3 says and "The only requirement for AA membership is a desire to stop drinking" is BS.

~You can not moderate the truth. Just don't lie, steal or make stuff up out of thin air and expect to get away with it without it being pointed out to you. It's really very simple.~

Clara's picture

Well, we are talking about AA, aren't we? Why wouldn't I discuss its published stance on something? Now, if you want biblical references... Alcoholic Victorious could give you the steps of AA in biblical form. Their steps don't vary all that much. It's al basically the 8 beatitudes with 4 more steps tossed in for measure.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Clara's picture

You've got to be kidding me. Where I got sober, singleness of purpose was very obvious and well learned. Read page 142 in Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions. Now, of course, this is just what I have encountered in El Paso. Many of these are open meetings and anyone can attend. There is a great deal of dual addiction, and they do not adhere to what I had previously experienced - in AA you discuss alcohol problems. In NA, you discuss the other. But I find it interesting that you've never understood why Alcoholic Anonymous is call Alcoholics Anonymous verses Avocado Anonymous or Apples Anonymous or... Fuuuuunny.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

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