I am paraphrasing all of quotes to stay away from speaking AA.
The most dangerous chapter in the Big Book is Chapter 7 (not a very lucky number) is entitled "WORKING WITH OTHERS" pages 89 to 103. This is the chapter that is studied heavily by a stepper so they can become a Sponsor. They will underline phrases in it to understand how they can make someone a permanent member of AA. If you have a sponsor you may want to find out what passages they have underlined to access how they got into your life and the tactics they used.
Pg. 89
* Start helping other Alcoholics so that it can help in your recovery.
* Secure their confidence.
* Alcoholics are are very ill.
* Have frequent contact with newcomers.
* If you can not find any Alcoholics to save go to doctors, ministers, priests or hospitals. They will be more than happy to assist you.
* You are only trying to be helpful (notice the contradiction from the first key point)
Pg. 90
* Discover a Prospect.
* Find out all about them (research)
* If there is any indication that they want to join AA talk to the spouse. (research through the family)
* Find out his background, behavior, problems and religious affiliation.(Research prospect)
* Use this information to formulate a plan to get them to join. (Decide how to get them to join AA)
* Wait until they go on a binge to contact them. (They are vulnerable at this stage)
* Make them believe you are the only one that can help them.
* Make hints to the family on how to handle him, leave a BB where they can find it. (leave bait for the new prospect)
Pg. 91
* Urge the family to not be over anxious that might spoil yor plans. (getting the family envolved again)
* Usually the best person to get involved is a doctor or institution (try to get them into rehab)
* If he gets to rehab, try and see him when he is thier still jittery (he's vulnerable, you put him there and make sure you are he realizes you are his only way out.)
* See your prospect alone if possible. (No one to interfere and no witnesses)
* Get him to tell you some of his drinking stories (more research)
Pg. 92
* Tell him you are an alcoholic and understand him. (gain their confidence)
* If you decide they are an Alcoholic continue (you have found a good prospect)
* Tell them that they have a fatal disease and doctors won't tell them that (they have you alone and no witnesses)
* Hopefully their Doctor will tell them they are an alcoholic (if the Doctor that you actually sent him to agrees the better)
Pg. 93
* Tell him about yourself (alone and gain his confidence)
* Stress Spirituality (get him to join AA)
* Tell him its Spiritual and not Religious (bait and switch, confuse him with terms)
* Tell him about a Higher Power (stress its not religious)
* Tell him they can use their own Religion if they have one (obvious contradiction from above)
Pg. 94
* Outline a plan of action on trying to make them to join AA (Planning next steps)
* Tell him your doing this to help your recovery (play on his empathy)
* Tell him it will make everyone around him happy. (play on his empathy)
* Let them rebel if they want to (don't push, you have him on the hook good)
* Try to lend him a copy of your book . (leave bait for the new prospect)
Pg. 95
* Let the prospect think about it for a while (give him some line so you can set the hook real good)
* Let him go on a few more binges, he'll come back after he hurts for a while. (wait to set the hook)
* Hopefully he will find God (religion)
* Tell him that if he does not join he will face the consequences (death)
Pg. 96
* If your prospect doesn't take the hook, its OK just go find another prospect, (take your time, they'll come crawling back)
* If they come back make sure they read the book (give out more bait)
* Don't give any money any kind of aid unless you can afford it (AA doesn't pay it's new salesmen anything)
Pg. 97
* If the prospect doesn't bite on his own try and get him to hit bottom and get him committed to a rehab.( go the doctor route)
* Be nice to the family and let them know you are there to help.(get to them through the family)
Pg. 98
Sorry I can't finish outlining this piece. These last 5 pages outline how to get them to believe in GOD and play with them and their families more.This is the most vile document I have ever read.
avogadno
Mon, 04/25/2011 - 06:11
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Was there knowing intent by
Was there knowing intent by Bill from day 1?
"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.” ~ Aldous Huxley
JR Harris
Mon, 04/25/2011 - 13:11
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Bill Wilsons intent in writing the BiG Book
Since I do not know Bill Wilson, I can not prove what his intent was in writing the Big Book. You would have to look at the types of self-help books that were around and available at the time of writing, that he may have used as a template. I do know that he was an unemployed drunk who had a hard time finding and keeping a job. Yet, he claims to have made very little money off of the sale of the Big Book and had a very high standard of living. I do believe that his intent in writing the 12X12, was to make money which I believe he has admitted, and to enforce a higher level of security on masking the source of his funds through anonymity.
Innocent Abroad
Wed, 04/27/2011 - 01:26
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Origins of AA literature
The reason for the publication of AA's "Big Book" is given in its foreword - it was seen by the original hundred members or so as a way of "carrying the message". Incidentally a very practical reason for anonymity is given there - the idea that it is a "spiritual foundation" was developed by Wilson later and I doubt one AA member in a hundred could give a coherent account of it.
The "12 and 12" (hint - you can always tell a sick AA member because they call it the "12 BY 12") was written to promote the Traditions within AA. Wilson had a lot of trouble getting the Fellowship to adopt them - even in his lifetime he was widely seen as an interfering bossyboots - and the Board suggested that in order to make the book containing them more attractive he also write a set of essays on the Steps. The preface to the "12 and 12" makes it clear that it's just one man's opinion, but don't say that at an AA meeting if you want anyone to invite you to the coffee bar afterwards.
Wilson was, before the booze got on top of him altogether, a stockbroker. He had a lot of debts when he got sober and I don't know if he ever paid them all. After he died, the AA Board gave the royalties from these books to his widow, Lois (the founder of Al-Anon).
flannigan
Fri, 05/06/2011 - 07:31
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origins of AA literature
Innocent Abroad-
Bill Wilson was never a licenced stockbroker in the state of New York or any other state. He was a "stock analyst". Lois Wilson received 90% of royalties and Bill's mistress, Helen Wynn, received 10% of royalties by way of Bill's will. The 12 and 12 was co-authured by Tom Powers, who never received compensation for his effort and subsequently left AA. The 12 traditions were first published in "Grapevine" magazine in early 1940's and accepted by General Service Board at national convention in 1950.
Innocent Abroad
Fri, 05/06/2011 - 16:37
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Wilson's bio
Thanks for the correction.
Clara
Wed, 02/22/2012 - 08:22
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I personally benefitted a
I personally benefitted a great deal from the fellowship of AA, and I met a wonderful group of people that I continue to befriend today. Some were even around in Bill's day. I just think that he wrote a number of decent things that can be helpful, but even AA admits that it is but one way to get sober and that it will work for some and not for others. I hear the same thing from anynumber of reps for rehabs. I remember getting into it with a gentleman that couldn't abide the thought that Bill cheated on his wife, Lois. I understand the same thing, the he got royalties from books sales (but that these did not include the BB)and split them between Lois and Helen. Helen bought a house in Ireland before Bill died and she was unable to see him very much. Think what you want to of him. I feel he was a man that compiled some good stuff together into a workable plan that people can follow to some success. After all, the 12 steps are in every major religion of the world, which is one reason why most people can relate to them in some fashion. They've already been exposed to them if they've been to church at all. I quit going to meetings because we relocated and I didn't like the meetings in that area. But I still agree with the "support" idea behind getting well. After all, for me, the meetings were no different than what some of my other friends are doing - hiring "life coaches" to help them with their issues. And if it works for them, fine.
My comments on OPF represent my views only and do not represent those of AA.
JR Harris
Wed, 02/22/2012 - 14:42
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The KFC cure works even better than AA -it works, it really does
Clara, you've been lied to. AA didn't get these people sober, they did it themselves. You can take anything and market it as a cure for Alcoholism. If you have enough people thinking and repeating that Kentucky Fried Chicken was a cure, it would be believed. Just tell them to go to KFC, whenever they feel like drinking. Insist on at least 90 buckets in 90 days or they aren't following the program good enough. If they quit without KFC, they weren't "real" alcoholics anyway. If they don't like the people working or going to the KFC next to them, just find another one. Eventually you will have people addicted to KFC instead of AA meetings.
KFC to cure Alcoholism - it works if you work it!
Pennywise
Wed, 02/22/2012 - 14:44
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Indeed, just like Colonel
Indeed, just like Colonel Sanders was not a real colonel, Bill W. was not a real stock broker.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
btnben
Wed, 02/22/2012 - 14:50
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LOL
I thought you were going to say he wasn't a real W...lol
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
JR Harris
Wed, 02/22/2012 - 15:27
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Yeah, Colonel Sanders doesn't get any respect for what he did
I'm sure that the KFC cure works, but no one is even trying to give him a place in history for it. The Colonels last suit, documented, numbered and authenticated couldn't even be sold on Pawn Stars. What a shame.
http://www.history.com/shows/pawn-stars/videos/pawn-stars-cornering-the-...
Clara
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 09:18
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I'd be the first one to admit
I'd be the first one to admit that for me, the steps are an outline and that I put the work into it. I never said anything differently. You can give someone the tools for anything, but unless they pick them up and do something with them... People have also utilized other ways to get and maintain sobriety. Good for them!
My comments on OPF represent my views only and do not represent those of AA.
causeandeffect
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 13:12
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“even AA admits that it is
“even AA admits that it is but one way to get sober and that it will work for some and not for others. I hear the same thing from anynumber of reps for rehabs.”
Please Clara, if you could show me where AA admits it’s but one way to get sober, I’d really appreciate it. And a link where reps for rehabs say anything remotely like this would be nice. Thanks.
Oh, and I’d like evidence of this statement as well: “After all, the 12 steps are in every major religion of the world, which is one reason why most people can relate to them in some fashion.”
Trisha K.
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 13:21
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My goodness you would like evidence.
No one provides proper evidence here....lol.
btnben
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 13:22
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???
“After all, the 12 steps are in every major religion of the world, which is one reason why most people can relate to them in some fashion.”
The 12 steps are directly in contradiction to the 10 commandments. Well, the one about idolatry and false gods. I thought the 10 Commandments were pretty much the rules of Christianity.
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
causeandeffect
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 13:38
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Clara's simply repeating
Clara's simply repeating something she's heard that has no basis in actual fact.
Clara
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 18:27
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No. No one made a comparison
No. No one made a comparison to the 10 Commandments. That isn't what I said.
My comments on OPF represent my views only and do not represent those of AA.
Clara
Fri, 02/24/2012 - 14:36
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I am not of the opinion that
I am not of the opinion that this is the most dangerous chapter, if I can borrow the word. I find "To the Wives" to be outdated, athough it does provide some methods on how to work with sponsees. I think "To the employer" is outmoded because few employers today would take the risk. It is jsut my experience that most would rather just let an employer go that had problems, particularly if there isn't insurance for rehab. But this is also the chapter that points out that if someone thinks there is another way than AA, let him have at it. AA doesn't insist that its way is the only way.
My comments on OPF represent my views only and do not represent those of AA.
JR Harris
Fri, 02/24/2012 - 14:51
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Chapter 7 teaches the cult member how to hunt and where
All other Chapters are used as justification for unsolicited prospect hunters to invade the privacy of anyone they can find and talk people into believing they have an incurable disease unless they join the cult.
"When you discover a prospect for Alcoholics Anonymous, find out all you can about him. " BB p.90, Working With Others
"If there is any indication that he wants to stop, have a good talk with the person most interested in him -- usually his wife. " BB p.90, Working With Others
No other Chapter in the Big Book gives instructions on how to get to someone through their family and the tactics to use.
The 12&12 gives the apologetic rebuttals, such as the "your not an alcoholic, so you don't know what you are talking about" tactic:
"To the doubters we could say, "Perhaps you're not an alcoholic after all. " 12&12 p.23, Step One
causeandeffect
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 13:47
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You never answered my question, Clara
Where does AA admit it's not the only way?
btnben
Wed, 02/22/2012 - 08:44
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The way cults work
This contention that AA says that it is only one of many ways to get sober is a classic example of how a cult works. They will say this in public to stay attractive to medical and legal institutions, but it is a different story once you cross over the threshold. "The newcomer is the most important person in the room" is AA's way of saying "We've got fresh blood - let the indoctrination begin".
A newcomer will usually be subdued and nervous - unsure of what to expect. You don't walk into the rooms for the first time for fun. There is usually quite a bit of desperation involved. Having been informed a newcomer is present, the shares will usually be directly aimed at the newcomer. How many times have I heard "I tried EVERYTHING, but AA is the only thing that worked for me". Provided they're not all complete beginners at the indoctrination game, any newcomer will leave their first meeting think "Wow, I've saved myself a lot of pain and suffering finding this place. All these people can't be wrong". Hooked.
Bill W certainly DID steal the royalties from the BB. He did so illegally and used the "for the good of the suffering alcoholic" blackmail to cover up his scam. He should have gone to prison for what he did, but he conned enough people into keeping quiet.
"....but God could AND WOULD if he were sought". AA is the only religion on earth that has God jumping through hoops for them. Miracles on demand. It's a bloody disgrace and the sooner the powers that be in the church find out about it, the better. The Oxford Group practices were banned by the Catholic Church.
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
Clara
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 09:23
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Maybe AA was the only thing
Maybe AA was the only thing that worked for them. Whose to say? And if they are staying sober and that is what they want, what could the harm possibly be? I personally enjoyed it and I met a great number of people that I came to like and love. They are still friends despite my having moved 27 hours away. I also met some that I wouldn't let use my bathroom. I am in an area now that if I had come to these meetings first, I probably would have run. AA is different everywhere you go, and it is set up so that it can be. People here obviously had negative experiences with it for reasons I don't know yet, but for those that AA has helped, good for them.
My comments on OPF represent my views only and do not represent those of AA.
btnben
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 10:03
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The "But it worked for me" con.
This is a good example of how powerful the brainwashing is. I don't know you Clara, but you seem reasoned and genuine. Even so, you can repeat the "But it worked for me" con and actually believe it.
Let's try this step by step (no insult intended - well, maybe a little one...lol). First, people don't go to AA because they've got ingrowing toenails of terminal dandruff. The only reason to cross the doorstep is a drinking problem. AA themselves say that only you can decide if you are an alcoholic, so, entering an AA room seems like you've made your mind up on that score.
Step 2 Alcoholism/ alcohol abuse has a recognised spontaneous remission rate of 5% per annum. The cumulative effect of this remission rate means that, over time, 50% of people with a drinking problem will stop, and 50% won't. They will probably die prematurely from alcohol related problems. There is no way of deciding who will be part of this 5%/annum (and the subsequent 50%) - it's a lottery.
Step 3. In any year, every 1000 people with a drinking problem will have 50 quitters. If 100 of those 1000 were to go to AA, you would expect 5 quitters. By AA's own figures, this number is much lower. AA's own statistics show that the Fellowship hinders recovery.
The "But it works for me" con is becoming less and less accepted as people learn the truth. The internet has been the major contributor to this. AA's policy of group autonomy and anonymity has made the collection and the spreading of information almost impossible. This is changing. Once everyone knows AA is an abject failure, how long can it last.
Praying to a doorknob would have just as much effect as the AA 12 steps, and praying to a doorknob is certifiably crazy...lol
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
Trisha K.
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 11:33
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If this works for you, I say great.
The world doesn't need to know Ben doesn't like AA, do they?
JR Harris
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 11:39
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As they say in AA...............
If you don't like the meeting, go to a different one. No one will stop you.
btnben
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 11:39
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The world already knows...lol
What do you think this site is all about?
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
Clara
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 12:49
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We all have our different
We all have our different experiences, and I haven't been here long enough to know why some of you have the negative, even downright hostile feelings toward AA or those that found it desireable. I have a friend of mine that hates AA, too. Turns out that she had an alcoholic, abusive, meanspirited, irresponsible cokehead for a dad. He got into recovery through various As and has a nice life that would include her if she wanted it. But she's resentful that he is well thought of in his groups, has a new family that has never seen him drunk or high, and he's recovered his financial standing. But instead of holding her own self responsible for an unwillingness to let go of the past and see him in the new light that he deserves, she wants to wallow and find fault with AA and CA. He's tried to apologize for his past and for what a miserable failure he was as a father, and that is all he can do. But why blame AA, CA or those that accept him for who he has worked to become?
My comments on OPF represent my views only and do not represent those of AA.
btnben
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 12:53
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AA is never at fault.
The program doesn't fail people, people fail the program. And if they're not in the program, then blame the victim. Jesus Christ - people actually believe this crap.
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
JR Harris
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 13:05
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So on average how many prospects does your coven bag a year?
Are most of your AA prospects free range or captive captures from jails and prisons? How many seasoned AA prospect trappers does your coven have anyway? Do you treat your prospects at least by the Geneva Convention?
causeandeffect
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 13:19
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"Free range" LOL!
"Free range" LOL!
Clara
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 16:39
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You are funny, JR. I wouldn
You are funny, JR. I wouldn't know a number but it sure seems that a minority were from jails, although many, including myself, had histories that included lock ups. I would say that more than half of the people in my meeting had decades in the fellowship.
My comments on OPF represent my views only and do not represent those of AA.
gigi
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 13:24
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Clara-Are you seriously suggesting
Are you seriously suggesting that your friend look for her part in having "an alcoholic, abusive, meanspirited, irresponsible cokehead for a dad"?
btnben
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 13:28
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And what is wrong with that?
The father is now in a cult religion. He has made his amends. He has a disease. He can't be blamed for anything he did when his disease was rampant - that would be unfair. Someone's to blame though. Where's that victim!!!!!
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
gigi
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 13:36
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It's all good
He has a new family now.
Clara
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 16:41
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She didn't have a part in
She didn't have a part in that, to be sure. If you've read my posts on the subject, what I am suggesting is that she ask herself why she cannot accept him for who he has become since getting sober and why she is so deriding of the felowships that helped shape the change.
My comments on OPF represent my views only and do not represent those of AA.
Persephone In Exile
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 16:53
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Perhaps she's too busy trying
Perhaps she's too busy trying to heal from an abusive childhood? I've been discussing this outside of this site, but it seems like some people who've suffered from emotional abuse don't take to well to a program that tries to make them look for their parts in everything, their character flaws, and the general controlling nature of xA. Wacky concept, I know, but I think there's some truth in it.
Clara
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 17:11
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But he is accountable for HIS
But he is accountable for HIS part, which he tried to make amends for... No one suggested that she had a part.
My comments on OPF represent my views only and do not represent those of AA.
Clara
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 17:12
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She isn't in the program. She
She isn't in the program. She resents the programs that he utilized for change and that he has become a respectable person.
My comments on OPF represent my views only and do not represent those of AA.
causeandeffect
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 17:18
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So, what you're saying is
So, what you're saying is that a brief amends is somehow supposed to make up for years of abuse, and if she still has resentments about what's happened to her, it's because she resents the program that changed him because he's now sober. Not that she resents the program who led him to believe that some cheap amends would somehow make years of abuse magically all better. Got it!
btnben
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 17:15
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Strange
You automatically assume that, because he is in AA and says he has done a step 9, that everything in the garden should be rosy. Were you there when he made his "amends"? Can you say that his "amends" were acceptable? Was he being sincere? My experience of AA is that a lot of people say one thing in a meeting, but do something completely different in real life.
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
Clara
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 17:38
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Families broken by addiction
Families broken by addiction to anything can be repaired. We have all seen examples it. And nowhere in any AA literature is it suggested that a simple "I'm sorry" erases all ills. Often, an amends is a work in pregress.
My comments on OPF represent my views only and do not represent those of AA.
causeandeffect
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 17:05
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I suspect
He's probably still all those things minus the alcoholic and cokehead part.
Clara
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 17:13
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He is a changed individual.
He is a changed individual. It seems rather apparent through the love he enjoys with his new family.
My comments on OPF represent my views only and do not represent those of AA.
btnben
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 17:25
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Leopards don't change their spots
Once a thug, always a thug.
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
Persephone In Exile
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 17:34
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Nah, I do think people can
Nah, I do think people can change. I think it's also hard to separate the relationship with a person from the fact that they did change, sometimes. Maybe neither person should live with the blame.
Clara
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 18:11
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Agreed.
Agreed.
My comments on OPF represent my views only and do not represent those of AA.
Clara
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 17:38
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Only if you don't work on
Only if you don't work on change.
My comments on OPF represent my views only and do not represent those of AA.
gigi
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 13:32
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*
*
gigi
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 13:31
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Maybe
the world needs to know that is not an effective stop drinking program but a religion.
Clara
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 12:34
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I would never pray to a
I would never pray to a doorknob and I never got that other than it simply means something other than yourself. I rather suspect that got started as a tongue in cheek reference. I don't think I have ever read it anywhere. There ar eplenty of people that go to AA without having made up their minds that they are indeed acoholics. I knew that I had a problem that centered around drinking. And they don't want people there trying to get help for issues other than those related to alcohol, so I was a bit taken aback when a poster said he had never heard of that. I was astonished, really, and that is when you have to just understand the person has no personal experience with AA. It's in the first thing read at every meeting I ever went to - the preamble. And if I personally believe in AA as it relates to the help given to me in maintaining sobriety, I guess I have to just say great! If it didn't work for you, that's fine, too, and there are alternative. AA would even admit it.
My comments on OPF represent my views only and do not represent those of AA.
david
Wed, 05/02/2012 - 16:00
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Clara -- Wish that'd been the case when I went to AA
When I was working at AA for six months I had many snide comments about trying to work what is a spiritual programme without a belief in a Higher Power. You see, all the others were sharing about buying drink, drinking drink, or being drunk. I was sharing about getting to grips with the programme -- which I couldn't. It's probably fair to say that when the group turned against me it was because they simply did not like the presence of anyone who could state publicly, in the meeting, that they are just not spiritual. Indeed, one person actually referred in thinly-veiled terms about their having 'bothered' to go to a Sunday meeting when there are 'people' they don't **like** (my emphasis) there. There was no help whatsoever. It was a clique, club, sect, cult, or whatever. It was not a place for people to go who have an alcohol problem and need support.
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