The latest blowout on the forum was the fault of-

Persephone in Exile
0% (0 votes)
Gunthar2000
33% (2 votes)
Ilse and Mark
33% (2 votes)
Orange
33% (2 votes)
All of the above
0% (0 votes)
Total votes: 6

Comments

NoAAUK's picture

I think ben is right, fresh deprogramed people need to become involved all the time, but I also think neutrals, not just victims have to surmount the censorship surrounding the activities of this cult and come out against these cult promoters.

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

criticoolthinking's picture

for depression and other emotional disorders ...but only if its not followed by shame and rationalizing that jams the feelings back down all over again - and many people hurt by aa have been exposed to decades of emotional repression. i was stuck in a traumatic bonding loop for 15 years and it took many years to release all that energy. my family was alsol emotionally repressive. so i needed a safe place with people who respected and understood what i went through. aka professionals. in my case. all it took was a few people against my feelings to re-damage my efforts to form a healthy release process.

the only thing we have to fear; is man himself. CGJung

NoAAUK's picture

I don't think any one person is to blame for what is happening, to be honest I'm fed up with trying to expose this thing which I was also a victim of and allowed to ruin my life. Its just steppism, its meant to screw heads up.

Its the same with censorship of criticism of this cult throughout the media, treatment sector, alternatives and wherever else these cult groupies can hide the truth, no one person is responsible its just steppism. I repeat yet again its just a lying, scare mongering, coercive, predatory 1930's cult at the end of the day. It speaks bad for a society that has allowed this cult to so flourish. I think mankind ought to be ashamed of themselves to allow this 12 step thing to so screw up so many vulnerable victims

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

NoAAUK I think mankind ought

NoAAUK I think mankind ought to be ashamed of themselves to allow this 12 step thing to so screw up so many vulnerable victims
I agree. And don't know what else to say. No one is to blame for the public meltdown and think it's normal for people to have them even on a forum.
Sometimes inappropriate things are typed or done to the forum out of anger. Members banned and have to take responsibility for the actions. Remember, a certain amount of danger exists when you sign up for multiple forums, no privacy exists on the internet anymore.
I've typed out many comments that are inappropriate, and am sorry for that. Anger happens... be careful what you type out on any forum, don't give out too much personal information. Venting is normal though ( I mean don't hack the forum, take a step back, step away from the computer before doing something like that)
I like Persephone exile and wish healing and the best...
Just sorry this all happened. Like on another thread someone said, meltdowns happen on "both" sides. And welcome to the real world.
Again, very sorry for the pain- PIE-
Won't ramble anymore. Real world- meltdowns happen, no need to gloat at someone like the steppers do.

SimonTemplar's picture

At end o day,we're all human/imperffect
seeds/In I ching "wise man sees the seeds and knows
what actions to take
If goin to play this game/there's so many who've been involved in letting this get
out o control.become he said she said and
I WANT CONTROL/or I want to screw with so& so's head.
Coincidence Ilse & Mark showed up/puching buttons
and G freaked out.
failure of drs to treat and diagnose problems o individual
society tha makes person want to hide get wafar away from all
keep anyone from getting close to him.
pushing away when getting close is happening.
We've all palyed our parts in this game so
I;'ve no desire to attack anyone but agree w/JR no COINCIDENCE
that Isle/Mark pushed G's buttons and eh freaked out
but where's therapy going if no progress.Who's lsitening to him
when he's actually reaching out for help.VA DR's have worst records for success.
When help is accepted changes can happen /until then it's just Dr's waste o time
to try and help him.
don't like guilt blame /shame game.
Lighthouse in mtns/home again time for CHANGES.

I SPY

JR Harris's picture

Well actually it could be the Oxford Group, Bill Wilson, Norwich University or SYNANON that started it all. Which actually brings up a number of good points. Normally in this circle it is blamed on the three corporations that comprise what is known as Alcoholics Anonymous (AA). I guess you would really have to have been in AA and experienced it to understand. You see the individual groups are guided by AA, but they do not govern them, they let them do as they want and evolve the way they want too.

The actual groups have many new members and many old time members and the groups are usually run by an old time member as a Chairperson. It is true that many times new people are allowed to be a chairperson but that is not what usually starts the problems in the groups that we read about. It is the chairperson that calls the meeting to order and makes a speech setting the stage for the fights that we all read about. The newcomers to the meeting have no idea if the Chairperson is taking "digs" at an individual person or persons, but the oldtimers know exactly what is happening and that is what usually causes violence to erupt.

I honestly believe that the parking lot and the discussion between the oldtimers on the phone or in person is what causes the problem. You read in the paper all of the time where an oldtimer goes off and it is usually because of a topic that didn't pick them out specifically, but all of the oldtimers know exactly who is being targeted and the newcomers have no idea. This is of course a form of confrontational therapy.

Recently there has been talks of holding the churches responsible because they allow the meetings to happen in rented space on their property. Many of the oldtimers on this blog who have actually participated and been too AA meetings and AA business meetings (which anyone in AA can attend) actually see that they can not be held responsible because the hosts didn't say "OK rip they people a new one in your meetings." Actually if they did, I would agree to holding them responsible. Many strip malls where AA meetings, are held actually welcome the business before and after the meetings, especially with the economic downturn in the US where many strip malls are nearly empty and devoid of any customers. In a round about way I am saying that Orange did not start this by allowing the meeting to be adjourned on his property, just like the owners of the warehouse in New Jersey where Virgil Miller Newton held his "attack therapy" in the KIDS of Bergen County. The owners of the warehouse were not sued (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgil_Miller_Newton) nor did the Antiochian Orthodox Church that ordained Virgil Miller Newton as Father Cassian Newton.

Now lets see how this goes. You see a newcomer to this site which in AA is "the most important person in the room" has very little knowledge about what I just said, but it may be objectionable to the oldtimers of this site for various reasons. They most likely don't know much of the Oxford Group, Bill Wilson, SYNANON (which was started by an AA member https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synanon) or Virgil Miller Newton. I believe the finger pointing should stop because mainly everything has been said already and it is just beating a dead horse to death.

Instead let's explore the people that started AA and how the 'attack therapy" of the Oxford Group, Bill Wilson, Norwich University (which bill Wilson was expelled from because of a hazing incident) and SYNANON was wrong and how it can be stopped from continuing.

~You can not moderate the truth. Just don't lie, steal or make stuff up out of thin air and expect to get away with it without it being pointed out to you. It's really very simple.~

Actually churches CAN be held responsible for what happens under their roof and who they rent to. That is why they have to carry liability insurance and other riders like molestation insurance. If they had no responsibility there would be no need to buy insurance.

Even NAWS has written about the need for insurance liability policies to protect members and to the NA food chain going up. If churches and 12 step programs were immune from lawsuits there would be no need for either to purchase insurance.

"I welcome all allies in the fight against A.A. hegemony" -Orange

www.leavingaa.com

NA DAYTONA- Violent Criminals Being Mandated to AA and NA Meetings
http://nadaytona.org/alcoholics-anonymous-votes-no-to-protect-members-from...

Pennywise's picture

Actually churches CAN be held responsible for what happens under their roof and who they rent to. That is why they have to carry liability insurance and other riders like molestation insurance. If they had no responsibility there would be no need to buy insurance.

So some churches get special sexual assault coverage. Obviously this would mean regular insurance is not enough, or else they wouldn't need a molestation rider, which costs extra because it covers something the regular policy does not.

Even NAWS has written about the need for insurance liability policies to protect members and to the NA food chain going up. If churches and 12 step programs were immune from lawsuits there would be no need for either to purchase insurance.

The NA policy does not mention sexual assault coverage. Per your first paragraph, such riders are necessary to protect the insured from sex assault. Since the NA statement does not recommend a similar rider, it can be inferred that other types of lawsuits were contemplated, such as a slip and fall in the meeting room. After all, if the higher ups at NA were trying to protect themselves from molestation lawsuits, it would be pointless to recommend a general insurance policy that would not cover those types of suits.

Have you listened to your Arnold ZeDVille today?
http://www.reverbnation.com/arnoldzedville/songs

The bulletin is not considered a fully comprehensive review of all liabilities that would need riders under a liability policy. It is advised to talk to their insurance agent and mentions many can be held liable. Some churches insurance cover AA themselves. More churches are requiring AA to carry their own policies and naming the church as one of the insured. Other than sex abuse their are other dangers in AA meetings like people getting into fights and stabbed or shot at. So churches and NA both know that they can be held liable, as t NA stated it has a growing problem with litigation.

"I welcome all allies in the fight against A.A. hegemony" -Orange

www.leavingaa.com

NA DAYTONA- Violent Criminals Being Mandated to AA and NA Meetings
http://nadaytona.org/alcoholics-anonymous-votes-no-to-protect-members-from...

Pennywise's picture

You claim liability, but for what? You seem to not understand that intentional torts and liability for paid employees are much difference from ordinary negligence or premise liability for things like fires and slip and falls.

Have you listened to your Arnold ZeDVille today?
http://www.reverbnation.com/arnoldzedville/songs

Pennywise's picture

Fights and stabbing a are intentional torts, like sex assaults.

Have you listened to your Arnold ZeDVille today?
http://www.reverbnation.com/arnoldzedville/songs

Pennywise's picture

But you'll never get this point because you don't want to, even though it might benefit your cause if you did.

Have you listened to your Arnold ZeDVille today?
http://www.reverbnation.com/arnoldzedville/songs

Oh I get it, more than you know.

"I welcome all allies in the fight against A.A. hegemony" -Orange

www.leavingaa.com

NA DAYTONA- Violent Criminals Being Mandated to AA and NA Meetings
http://nadaytona.org/alcoholics-anonymous-votes-no-to-protect-members-from...

Pennywise's picture

If you knew about it, you would provide legal citations detailing the problem. You would then say why those citations support your cause. Or, if the law is not in your favor, you would make arguements why the law should be changed.

Have you listened to your Arnold ZeDVille today?
http://www.reverbnation.com/arnoldzedville/songs

Please do not tell me what I would do or not do Penny. I really would not take the time to debate you on that level.

People can still be liable if they are found to be negligent in reference to a tort claim. Negligence falls under general liability. Also liability insurance can cover a broad array of coverage depending on what peoples need are and what they spend. There are different types. I think I am not telling you anything you do not already know. On top of that for those without the proper insurance will have to pay out of pocket if the plaintiff wins.

"I welcome all allies in the fight against A.A. hegemony" -Orange

www.leavingaa.com

NA DAYTONA- Violent Criminals Being Mandated to AA and NA Meetings
http://nadaytona.org/alcoholics-anonymous-votes-no-to-protect-members-from...

JR Harris's picture

Well take the cases of rape and murder that happen in hotels and rental property. If these actions happen are the owners held responsible? If they advertize that hey, come here to rape and murder and they will condone it then yes they are, but I have never seen that happen. People that rent to others are not liable unless they condone these actions. Can you give me "one" example where a "Bates Motel" like scenario happened and the owners of the hotel or rental property were held responsible?

Of course you are talking about the Karla Brada case (the elephant in the room). The thing is that it was an et al. (see http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/et+al.) where the Intergroup, AAWS and AAGSO/AAGSB were implicated. Many people don't like the depth that I investigate things, but the fact of the matter is that in a court of law you need to know who in the Integroup, AAWS or AAGSO/AAGSB knew of what was going on and condoned it. I provide the information so that what actually happened can be recreated if the original source is deleted, archived or not known.

I have learned from some of the more older sites about the problems in AA that they often have dead links to reports and they don't identify the possible people involved. I decided to make sure that the information was available to allow researchers (such as CBS News 48 Hours) who to interview and ask questions. If they refuse to answer, then that is noted in the documentary. Is it wrong? I guess it depends upon your perspective. The thing is if you notice all of the posts I make give the reporters name, when it was said, where it happened and what was said.

~You can not moderate the truth. Just don't lie, steal or make stuff up out of thin air and expect to get away with it without it being pointed out to you. It's really very simple.~

USA Liability Insurance Bulletin
December 2006

Introduction
This bulletin is intended to provide NA service committees with general information about
liability insurance coverage for their groups and activities. NA World Services receives frequent
requests for information on issues related to liability, insurance, and availability of coverage.
We have seen an increase in liability litigation by members and others that can cost thousands
of dollars to resolve. This can result in a substantial loss of resources to a group or service body
that has no liability insurance coverage. With that considered, NA World Services is providing
the fellowship with current information about liability insurance. All groups are encouraged to
obtain liability insurance through local brokers or through insurance brokers listed by NA
World Services as a resource.7
Liability insurance issues can be unfamiliar to many of our members, and the data necessary to
make good decisions when buying insurance may seem complicated. Many of us do not think
it’s likely we will experience injury or related occurrences at our meetings and activities. To
others, this whole discussion may seem too organized for NA. But the truth of the matter is that
NA trusted servants, groups, and committees have exposure to liability and liability insurance
can provide vital protection for these individuals and for fellowship funds. The Eleventh
Concept proposes that we take all reasonable steps to manage the fellowship’s funds. Protecting
NA funds by maintaining insurance coverage helps us carry out this responsibility.
Additionally, the Seventh Tradition essay from our Basic Text reminds us that we only ask
members to do their fair share. We practice that principle when we protect trusted servants from
unnecessary risk of personal liability for group activities. NA World Services encourages
groups, areas, and regions to give serious consideration to this issue. It is in the spirit of
supporting this effort and in response to the many inquiries we have received from around the
fellowship that this bulletin has been developed.
This specific information is primarily directed toward the United States NA community, but it
may be adaptable elsewhere as well. However, the spiritual principles discussed here may have
applicability for any service body considering the underlying issues addressed in this bulletin.
We recommend any evaluation or decision-making processes include thorough discussion
among interested members and guidance from a local, licensed insurance professional with
experience insuring nonprofit organizations. The term “group” used throughout this document
refers to any NA group, service board or commimittee.
What is liability insurance?
We have tried to address this question as simply as possible but have had to use legal and
technical terms to describe this issue. “Liability” means legal responsibility to a third party or
parties (another person or organization) for one’s acts or omissions. Failure of a person or entity
to meet that responsibility leaves one open to a lawsuit for damages from any resulting injury or
loss the third party or parties suffer. “Liability damages” are generally a sum of money to
compensate the injured party.
A liability insurance policy is a contract or agreement between the insurance company and a
policyholder whereby the insurance company agrees to compensate an injured party or parties
that suffer a loss or injury due to the acts or omissions of the policyholder. Said another way,
liability insurance provides protection against claims from third parties (e.g., hotels, convention
centers, churches, attendees, or innocent bystanders) for bodily injury, personal injury, or property loss or damage (i.e., accidents). Liability insurance also covers the cost to defend an asserted
claim from a third party against the policyholder whether or not the policyholder is later found not to have
done anything wrong. When an incident occurs that is covered by the policy, the insurance company will
interact with the individual(s) who may have been harmed in an effort to resolve any related costs, within
the limits provided in the policy.
Liability insurance basically covers the negligence of the policyholder and others covered as “insured
parties.” “Negligence” is defined as the failure to exercise the care toward others for a foreseeable and
unreasonable risk of harm that a reasonable or prudent person would have taken in the same or similar
circumstances, or taking an action that a reasonable person would not.
The primary liability insurance policy for organizations holding meetings and events is called
Commercial General Liability (CGL) insurance. The types of coverage included in liability insurance
policies vary, and numerous exclusions to coverage apply to policies. CGL insurance policies can vary
slightly from state to state, but the typical policy covers the following things: bodily injury or death, and
property damage to third parties, personal injury (including libel, slander, and false arrest), advertising
liability, fire legal liability, and medical payments for injury to third parties. Property damage to premises
(e.g., hotels, convention centers, churches, etc.) in the care, custody, and control of the policyholder is
also covered as long as the property is used for seven (7) or fewer days.
A partial list of typical exclusions found in a CGL policy includes coverage for damage, loss, or injury
from intentional acts or omissions (i.e., violence or a malicious act). Also excluded are damage or loss to
person’s or property from arson, losses or damage from the use of an automobile, material published with
knowledge of falsity, and discrimination against certain parties.
Because policies vary in what they cover, it is very important to fully understand any insurance policy
coverage before purchasing it.
Why is liability insurance needed?
A growing number of facilities require liability insurance from groups renting meeting or event space.
Having such coverage can make finding meeting space easier, but there are even more important reasons
for securing liability insurance, such as personal liability of trusted servants.
If an accident or incident occurs at an NA meeting or event, the trusted servants who coordinate meetings
or activities could be held liable and their personal assets could be placed in jeopardy unless insurance
coverage is in place. Insurance provides trusted servants, groups, and service committees with a level of
protection by reducing or eliminating any financial risk to fellowship funds or trusted servant’s personal
finances.
Insurance coverage can provide significant legal support in the case of civil litigation or law suits. For
example, if an injury occurs at a meeting place due to the group’s negligence (e.g., if someone suffers
substantial injury from a fall caused by a loose microphone cord or is severely burned by a hot coffee
spill) the insurance company typically will conduct an investigation, represent NA in any court
proceedings, and pay any damages up to the limit of the liability policy. Usually, when an insurance
company handles a claim it does not require any expense or substantial involvement from thhe trusted
servants of the group or committee. Additionally, in those cases where local insurance coverage is in
place, NA World Services is less likely to get involved. This saves additional time and resources because
we need not become a party to local matters in which we are not involved and for which NA World
Services has no responsibility.
Who should purchase liability insurance?
Every NA group and committee who meets or holds functions should consider liability insurance
coverage. Though each group or area service committee could purchase liability insurance coverage
individually, most policies currently held within the fellowship are at the regional service committee level,
as most times this will be the most economical approach. In addition, local activities, such as dances and 3
picnics, and annual events like retreats and conventions should be included in a regional-level policy
unless the event carries its own insurance coverage.
How to provide proof of insurance to a facility?
Many times a facility will request verification that the group, committee, or event has liability insurance
coverage. This request requires you to provide specific information from the group or committee to the
group’s insurance company. The insurance company will then issue the facility a Certificate of Insurance
which verifies and discloses the amounts of the coverage. We have included a Proof of Insurance Request
Form as an addendum to this bulletin that can be used for this purpose.
Some facilities may also require that they be named as Additionally Insured on the certificate of
insurance. This means that the facility is asking the group to specifically add the facility on its
insurance policy to cover (to the extent the policy allows) any claims against the facility that may arise
from your group’s use. Keep in mind that the group’s insurance company may charge for adding
Additionally Insured language to the policy, but the charge should be minimal. Discuss this important detail with your group’s insurance agent.
What to do if someone gets hurt?
It is a good risk management practice to discuss how to respond to liability situations with your group’s
insurance agent prior to any incidents. In the unfortunate event of an incident or accident, the first order of
business is to get medical help for the injured party or parties and address any emergencies. After that, if
possible, the group needs to collect complete contact information (including statements of what witnesses
saw, names, contact information, place, and times) from those involved and/or observers.
Regarding issues of anonymity, keep in mind that the information you are collecting is not intended to be
used to reveal NA membership, but rather as a part of the legal resolution process. In that way, collecting
this information is not in conflict with our Twelve Traditions.
What if a group or member gets “served”?
Sometimes an injured individual may file a civil law suit against those involved or identified as having
some responsibility for the incident or accident. As a part of that filing, you may personally receive
“service of process”. Service of process is the procedure whereby a defendant (person or organization
being sued) in a lawsuit is given legal notice that a lawsuit has been filed against them and a specific court
is exercising its authority over that person or organization. Generally service involves the delivery of a
formal legal document. The purpose of service of process is to enable the person or organization being
sued the opportunity to respond to the lawsuit. Once a person has been “served,” that person, or the
organization represented by that person, typically has thirty (30) days to respond. If the court does not
receive a response within the thirty (30) days, the person or organization can be held in default. If a party
is held in default, the other party automatically wins and is awarded damages by the court.
Our recommendation is to respectfully accept the service of process documents. Accepting these
documents does not imply admission of guilt. If you are served, we recommend you contact your group’s
insurance agent. The insurance company will likely take up the issue for you, depending on the
parameters of your coverage.
Other issues of coverage
Certain activities like dances, conventions, and campouts carry a greater degree of risk for injury and may
require more coverage than recovery and committee meetings. It is important that the group’s insurance
agent be provided accurate information regarding the nature of activities and events in order to assure
proper coverage. It is also advisable to send event contracts that include insurance provisions to the
group’s agent to review, prior to signing the contract. In this way the agent will have the opportunity to
give the group an assessment of the requirements, quote any additional insurance coverage premiums required, and allow the group’s committees to make informed decisions. Whenever signing contracts, for
insurance coverage purposes, the policyholder’s name should appear on the contract. For example, if an
area was holding a function, the area would identify themselves as “The ABC Area of the XYZ Regional
Service Committee of Narcotics Anonymous” on the contract.
On a related topic, some service boards may be interested in protecting themselves against liability for
decisions they make as a part of their fiduciary duties. Board members can find such protection through
purchasing directors’ and officers’ liability coverage (referred to as D&O insurance). Additionally,
service boards may be able to purchase dishonesty coverage for protection against internal theft, including
forgery and alteration of checks, by its employees. Finally, service committees that employ special
workers need to have workers’ compensation coverage. These plans cover employees injured in the
course of doing their job. This coverage is compulsory in most states, and not to have it would be a
violation of the law.
All of these matters are best discussed with a professional—an insurance agent, a state insurance agency,
or an attorney, for example. Bear in mind that in many states a service board may need to be incorporated
in order to have access to these types of insurance coverage. This bulletin is, however, not intended to
persuade you to incorporate. There are many other issues beyond insurance involved in that decision. If
you have further questions about incorporation, you can contact the World Service Office.
Additional resources
In an effort to support regional service committees in this matter, we have also attached two tools for your
use. Addendum 1 of this bulletin is a six-step process that may help in securing liability insurance
coverage. Addendum 2 is a sample Proof of Insurance Request Form that may simplify the process for
groups and committees to request needed insurance documentation.
In addition, we have listed those insurance companies that we know have helped other service committees
to secure group liability insurance. This is not intended to be an endorsement, nor does NA World
Services have any affiliation with these companies. If your regional service committee finds group
liability insurance coverage with a company not on our list, we ask that you forward that company’s
contact information so that we can make it available to other service committees.
Conclusion
This bulletin is merely an overview and should not be considered the final word about liability insurance.
We invite members and service committees to share your group’s experience with this matter in an effort
to have the most complete information available for other NA communities. It is our hope that through
this cooperative effort we can address this issue of growing importance to our fellowship.

Determine adequate coverage
Your group insurance liability limits need to provide adequate coverage. We recommend a minimum
of $300,000 combined single liability coverage. If you want to cover local activities and conventions,
we would strongly encourage you to increase liability coverage to $1,000,000. Ask the insurance
agent for options. The thought here is that activities such as dances, conventions, and campouts
involve activities that are typically considered higher risk. The possibility of injury increases, for
example, when members are lighting fires at a campout or dancing at a dance, compared to sitting in a
meeting.

http://www.na.org/admin/include/spaw2/uploads/pdf/bulletins/Bulletin%203...

"I welcome all allies in the fight against A.A. hegemony" -Orange

www.leavingaa.com

NA DAYTONA- Violent Criminals Being Mandated to AA and NA Meetings
http://nadaytona.org/alcoholics-anonymous-votes-no-to-protect-members-from...

live_free_or_die's picture
live_free_or_die's picture

The Creation of Eve

Eve is later created from one of Adam's ribs to be Adam's companion. However, the serpent tricks Eve into eating fruit from the forbidden tree. God curses only the serpent and the ground. He prophetically tells the woman and the man what will be the consequences of their sin of disobeying God. Then he banishes the man (and presumably also the woman) from the Garden of Eden.

The banishment and beat down

Source: BillW⓬™

Orange's picture

The sad thing is that the guy just flipped out. He emailed me almost immediately and apologized for it. He just got into an argument with someone and flipped out.
So it goes.
Which just goes to show that we really are human, and some of us do have problems.

Now my problem is figuring out how to allow people to use full HTML for posting pictures and videos, without allowing things like page redirection.

It's always something.

LOL...I still can't manage to upload a pic for myself. I don't envy you having to fix that kind of problem, Orange, I can't figure any of this stuff out. One thing's for sure, it is always something.

On the upside, at least you got an apology...lol...but very well said. Problems. Very damaging problems.

BBCode would do the trick, I'd think.

SimonTemplar's picture

So God says to Adam/I've got this great partner for you.
she'll keep you comapny,cook for you,love you and care for you
never ever give you any problems
Okay God but what's it gonna cost me??
An arm and a Leg!!
Naww tooo expensive/WHAT CAN IGET FOR A COUPLE O RIBS???
So much for the Garden of Eden
and where did their children/the one survivor/Cain
find a wife/where did he go to get Laid/loved ??
so much for the creation mystery
But waaayyy bettre than GUILT ,BLAME AND SHAME=AA/NA ETC.
Blackout for oeer 9 hours/light s back on.Brain dead and self hatred
Some freakin Lighthouse today/goota relight the fires/try to go inside
let's see now pleasure or pain/pleasure or pain/.mh hmm??? Go inside or freak out??

I SPY

LOLOLOLOL!
Good one! My 'theory' is that Cain would have had to do it with Eve, unless the aliens intervened, did the 'immaculate conception' and forgot to tell us.
I agree, WAY better than how they try to, usually with much success for awhile, (until the newcomer figures out it's all bullshit, brainwashing, doesn't come back.
I have known only 4 people over the years I was in the 'program' ,that were court ordered to attend meetings, 'decided' they did need and want 'recovery'. The others head out the door, back 'out there' soon as they are off probation.
The 'oldtimers' like me, who voluntarily get pulled into the brainwashing hook, line, and sinker.
I felt guilty all of the time if I said something during a meeting, did something they didn't 'approve' of that didn't fit with the hive mind thinking of the group.
That led to the BLAME game. As has been revealed in the Orange papers, MY fault for asking questions, doubting the 'miracle' of the program, I'll go back out and drink/use again, then come crawling back to the group, humiliated, work the steps AGAIN, confess my sins (there are some skeletons I prefer to keep in the closet), keep going, and going, and going to meetings ad infinitum.
Then SHAME on me for not 'working' the program to fit their closed minds of what they think I should do.
The camel that broke the straw's back for me was when I was told I was suffering from 'terminal uniqueness'
Huh? Being unique (as we all are,) was gonna get me terminated? From the program? From the groups?OH, I see. I have to become one of the BORG, "Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated."
BORRRRRRRING! I'm still working on deprogramming my mind from the brainwashing, the persistent thoughts ingrained in my brain that the only 'thing' that will keep me from drinking myself to death, is doing this, that, and the other, blah, blah, blah, to stay sober.
Today I CHOOSE to drink, I don't want to get drunk. I was so miserable the years I spent in in the program, convinced that no one can learn to CONTROL their drinking/using, or just quit on their own because they want to, or realize what it's doing to their lives, loved ones, friends, etc.
A few beers here and there, couple of drinks here and there, and I"m good.I can also choose not to drink at all.
To me, that is being 'happy, joyous and free.'
I enjoy your posts, always read something there that helps me stay away from the control of the program.

Live long and prosper:)

A property owner is generally liable for any type of personal injury to a person who is on/in his/her property if he/she has not taken appropriate measures to ensure their safety.

JR Harris's picture

That is true. I remember an incident 30 plus years ago where a very drunk person fell off of a second story walkway at an apartment building and ended up breaking a leg. They sued and the attorneys came out and measured the railing height, etc... The problem was that the railing was to code at the time legally and it just caused a lot of legal bills. This was way before AA was really in the news and the "your an alcoholic" and should have known better types of legal manipulating happened. Anyway the lawsuit was dropped after the owner of the apartment complex and lawyers charged a lot of money and found that no one was at fault except he person who broke a leg.

I could see it if it happened at a sober home and they had rules against being drunk and procedures in place to prevent someone coming into the home drunk and how to safely remove them. They don't and primarily very few sober home owners are sued for things that happen on their property. I will note however, that they are often shut down now for zoning and building code violations. The only one that was in legal trouble that I know of is Lance Glock, which only the oldtimers of this movement will know about and it had to do with 13th stepping.

~You can not moderate the truth. Just don't lie, steal or make stuff up out of thin air and expect to get away with it without it being pointed out to you. It's really very simple.~

SimonTemplar's picture

Think first widely read author about guilt game
was "Games People Play"/how others use GUILT/blame shame
for control not any reality to it just wanting control=feeds egoes
AA oldtimers worst b-tards witht heir fckng aole now OBEY ME.
NO CONCERN TO HELP/TOTAL DESIRE FOR CONTROL power abusive
sadistic pond scum/Yo love to use guilt anger hatred to control
#1 game is /can't you STFU?why you need to talk/
You're so fcng stupid dumbass/obey me you're fcng stupid jack
attacking self/always attack self/destroy self respect,control,confidence
Was fantastic seeing,listening to Prem ,but students
such CULT BITCHES=one woman:I sat down 1st /told her husband he could join me
then after getting myself some tea
"Why is he sitting at OUR TABLE" to her hubbie
then the games began.Expalined how my one student\has waited
over 16 months to have Rebirth/christism word or Knowledge
or INNER LIGHT EXPERIENCE /her answer was
"You need to do more meditaion."As well you simply can't
criticize a C U L T/so how does my doing meditation help Kob to get past
hatred Master Bator and Co ahve towards me to stop her from this gift??
THEN I'VE GOT IT= I'll screw him overwith GUILT
"Well do you have PERMISSION TO TRANSLATE PREM?"
there I've nailed him.got him good/this is Nazi regime Nazi spirituality
Always I'm so slow.
Instead of attacking into her tried politeness which on bitches and bastards is wasted
Look ,Yo does work that Commanding General o Police liked
while other guys said Prem's stupid.he doesn't know how to talk
w/buddhists.Shit for brains dead's response was simply
Gee he didn't get on his knees and apologize that he didn't
kiss some ass for permission do what I fng want to do/as if now
cult own you and you need to OBEY OBEY OBEY THE CULT
Some o what prem said I agred /w some I didn't/As it should be.
But asking for fng permission to say
I love Prem/or I love his techniques and hae seen him shining so bright.
he disappeared and was jsut ball o LIGHT W/voice from centre o LIGHT
stupide NAZI BASTARDS/But need nicey nice or otu come the freaking claws.
Today Yo's again wanting more more moer money
and when brought some groceries/told her 3000 baht only
Immedaitely transformed into BITCH you said 3,500
Before I saw that again you're RENTING A CAR/I told you not to
Yo pushed stuff around angry/said for the $1,500 last month she
actually got me a lower priced ticket to KL.as if that's$1500 o work.
getting worse not bettre/felt good after seeing prem/like load lifted
offn back/but will Kob ahve gift o knowledge?have no idea
such fakes everywhere/and OMG did you hear and so & so said/
Taking care o some who's severly mentally ill/too much work for me to do
just more and more greed greed greeed greed/no love no kindness.
Feeling liek tiem for rest/go to ocean stay on beach and go
thoke phla/go fishing/should only be 8$ to rent small boatmans rig in early hours
and then explain to Yo=sorry/no work no more money and btw
It's over/now pay is back to REALITY - $700/month is big bucks ehre
and she's still focussed/I'll hurt him/hurt his MIND/do almost nothing for
]work then take $1,330 or $ 1500 he's fharahng/stupid OLD foreigner
and goly gee, she ahtes men.8 years caring for abused adult child
But even with /curled up into a ball rockin back forth screaming at me
she's not sick/just needs more more more o my money
money will buy happiness from a bottle and ehr new girl friend
viscious litten girl when wanting CONTROL.caring for sick not fun.
Admire Drs who can help w/o becoming suicidal.
Something Prem said about how w/milk can make yogurt/then butter/
buttermilk /which is really healthy.?BUt IF MILK IS SPOILED
no matter how much time you spend/can't make anything
Yo's just a spoiled child wanting more/greed has CONTROL
and she wants that Control oer me with guilt,blame shame and anger.
Lighthouse in grey mtns/huge rains but it's grey again.
maybe weight ofn y back has tobe greedy little girl/Sena was jsut lieing
and lieing and lieing to me!!Others really BELIEVE CHANGES WILL HAPPEN/I DO NOT.

I SPY