In the deep woods of Poland, Maine, an old warehouse in Bergen County, New Jersey and Santa Monica, California victims were brought into rooms to attend attack therapy to "help them." Now it is being done online where the cries for help can be heard.

I am of course talking about ELAN, Kids of New Jersey and SYNANON where people were brought into a room and the physical and mental attacking of the participants was encouraged by the facilitators of these meetings. In the deep woods of Poland, Maine, an old warehouse in Bergen County, New Jersey and Santa Monica, California victims were taught how to attack each other by action set up by Joe Ricci, Virgil Miller Newton or Charles E. "Chuck" Dederich. I have helped to expose and document these action. During this "attack therapy" because they were the root cause of this I hold them responsible for everything and they should be exposed. I don't hold the "participant" of these experiments to be held directly accountable. When you look at the films, documentaries and experiences about Elan, Kids of New Jersey, Aaron Bacon and SYNANON you will notice that the survivors have pretty much forgiven each other and the other participants of this sick and demented "attack therapy" that was started by these people. One exception was Danny Bennison of Elan who went on to become a counselor at ELAN because of the brainwashing he went through. But you see, he didn't start the problem, he was brainwashed by the facilitators of these meetings. He did strike back when ELAN was questioned online and in my mind I still believe he was continuing the "attack therapy" he was brainwashed to do. He was was banned many times on many sites but he never made the documentaries. This forum is not a remote cabin or warehouse and people can hear the screams it causes. The host of this forum did not start the recent problems between members on this forum, it was facilitated by the administrators of http://stinkin-thinkin.com when they set up their own "attack therapy" experiment on this forum and sat back and laughed as the members of attacked each other. They did it not in a face to face encounter, but behind a keyboard which is even more disturbing. The administrators of stinkin-thinkin.com are just as guilty as Joe Ricci, Virgil Miller Newton and Charles E. "Chuck" Dederich in what they just did. I personally think it is even worse because of the fact it is being done behind a keyboard and is targeting the people they "trained" on their site. Don't be a "victim" of what I consider a session of "attack therapy" they instigated. Look at the root cause of this issue, it wasn't the forum members, it was Mark and Ilse the administrators of a different site and they used this site to run their "experiment" by proxy on this site. The problems arose on stinkin-thinkin.com when Ilse Thompson one of the administrators broke her anonymity and published her full name. With that information the people that the site was mocking started to attack her personally, the same way that the administrators were actively promoting. Things got out of hand and I am now being told that an Alcoholics Anonymous member with a gun threatened them in some way, something that I actually wasn't aware of. The thing is Mark and Ilse, you have chosen to do this on someone else's site in the hopes of getting it shut down or get some members banned because of the "attack therapy" you just caused. In the future Mark and Isle, if you want to stir trouble like this and not have it become public knowledge, pick a remote cabin in Poland. Maine, a warehouse in New Jersey or go to SYNANON in Germany where it is still active or your own site. But don't try to hurt people on the site of another in the hopes of getting it shut down.

Comments

criticoolthinking's picture

hitting escape quick does not fix it on my computer it also effects my bog link can it be deleted?

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i embrace a multi-pathic view of disease and behavior science. neither is the only way for everyone, people are unique, some get diseases, some don't. some needs are beyond will power. some are not. group think kills individuals! critty cat.

AntiDenial's picture

Actually reading through the comments Mark and Ilse never mentioned Gunther by name. Only people very close to all of this would have known the people, not person they were referring to. They also were referring to a reoccurring pattern of disruptive behaviors by certain posters. There has been plenty of personal attacks on the OPF and they are continuing. Many are still not learning any lessons here. Only that when the personal attacks are directed at them it is a completely different story! My what a pity party when it happens to those that were guilty themselves of attacking OPF below the belt.

"I welcome all allies in the fight against A.A. hegemony" -Orange

www.leavingaa.com www.expaa.org

NA DAYTONA Violent Criminals Mandated to AA and NA Meetings
http://nadaytona.org/alcoholics-anonymous-votes-no-to-protect-members-from...

JR Harris's picture

Good excuse AntiDenial, were you part of the reason this happened? This post post is about the 'attack therapy" session that Mark and Ilse started on a site they don't even administrate. Let them make the lame excuses, your post just proves that they got you into the innuendo, sly suggestion and attack therapy they started and you are trying to cover up what actually happened. The more excuses you make, the worse it becomes. Bottom line, Mark and Ilse orchestrated this whole thing and it isn't happening in a remote cabin in Maine so it is much easier to prove.

~You can not moderate the truth. Just don't lie, steal or make stuff up out of thin air and expect to get away with it without it being pointed out to you. It's really very simple.~

Pity party? You weren't excoriated over a whole board by a nutjob claiming you were faking injuries and the whole host of other things said about me right after having surgery for the exact injuries it was claimed you were faking. Whatever. Gloat all you want, the situations aren't exactly comparable to the philosophical disagreements we have had.
live_free_or_die's picture

Gunthar had a choice. He was not mandated or forced to respond to the ST post. Gunthar was not forced into a adolescent tough-love behavioral change program that you seem to be trying to use to excuse Gunthar's inexcusable behavior. Gunthar is not a teenager. Gunthar is a grown man and as such he responsible for his actions. JR, I honestly don't see the similarities you are trying to paint here in excusing Gunthar's actions. I do see differences though. Gunthar was certainly not forced to divulge all that he did yesterday concerning PIE. Personal information Gunthar had at his disposal that he obtained in a relationship that was supposedly based upon friendship and mutual respect. In my Big Book of LIfe what Gunthar did is inexcusable. And let us not forget the 800lb gorilla in the room, namely the way that the OPF was hacked last night as Gunthar made his final? fairwell. I made a decision several months ago to sever my relationship with Gunthar. I sincerely wish him the best in the future.
LFOD's Blog http://www.orange-papers.org/forum/blog/10857 ©2014 AA:MyNotGodHasItCovered® http://www.expaa.org/ http://noforcedaa.weebly.com/ http://12stepprograms.weebly.com/ NOT AA: Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
JR Harris's picture

PIE, I agree that what was said between all parties was wrong. The thing is the whole thing was setup just like "attack therapy" of the troubled teen industry. You see the facilitators of ELAN, Kids of NJ and SYNANON didn't really do that much, they just pitted each of the participants against each other and let mob rule take place. As you can see Mark is logged in right now, but he isn't saying anything. He's been logged in for a few hours. He's smiling over the "experiment" where he facilitated these attacks against each other started. It's no pity party, it was a deliberate attack made to start finger pointing. Mark's silence speaks volumes. Don't let him get the best of you and he's smiling right now.

~You can not moderate the truth. Just don't lie, steal or make stuff up out of thin air and expect to get away with it without it being pointed out to you. It's really very simple.~

JR Harris's picture

I suggest you watch Over the GW again LFOD. It shows what happens in "attack therapy" and you have fallen into Mark's trap. Let Mark speak for himself. The problems his little experiment has caused is not what I am talking about and you are just fueling the fire for more "attack therapy." Get the personal fights his little experiment caused out of the picture, there are other threads expressing those. This is about how wrong it was to start this whole thing in the first place. Mark is logged in right now, let him speak for himself. His silence speaks volumes.

~You can not moderate the truth. Just don't lie, steal or make stuff up out of thin air and expect to get away with it without it being pointed out to you. It's really very simple.~

JR, nothing I said was wrong. That freak needs to be knocked off the web for the abuse he spews at people. He's a rabid dog. I was defending myself against egregious attacks, and at this point anyone who even has a modicum of sympathy for G is off my list permanently. He was WRONG and is sick in the head. I realize it's not his fault, he is very ill, but there was no excuse for what he did and anyone making excuses for his sorry behavior is as bad as he is. Sorry, I get your broader point, but what happened to me wasn't in the same realm. I wasn't present for the Mark and Ilse portion of it, nor have either of them been harmful to me in any way.

Thank you, LFOD. I must also note that the redirects happened directly after a few posts appeared criticizing Gunthar's behavior. The second disapproval rained down on him here, he made the forum unreadable. You'd expect a 7 year old to behave that way, perhaps, but not a grown man.
JR Harris's picture

This thread isn't about You or G2K, it's about why the whole incident was caused. This thread is about why it shouldn't have been instigated in the first place, because it was started by a 3rd party and Mark is logged in right now waiting to perform his victory dance again. Sorry, but that is just sick. I realize that this "attack therapy" causes many hurts to the victims and I am sorry that it got to that point. But face it, if Ilse and Mark hadn't started this then it wouldn't have gotten to this point. If they want to cause this stuff without it being called on it they should have used a warehouse in New Jersey.

~You can not moderate the truth. Just don't lie, steal or make stuff up out of thin air and expect to get away with it without it being pointed out to you. It's really very simple.~

AntiDenial's picture

PIE you are so concerned about how you were treated but have now befriended Clara who causes much stress by personally attacking etc others. She has been banned from countless websites. She has said and done bad things to you, but you say you are so happy she has forgiven you. What about what she has done to you and others? I just see a very imbalanced view on this and you seem to only be able to relate to your own pain and not those of others. It will probably do no good to warn you, again about Clara, but it does seem you are in somewhat of a vulnerable state. I would be extremely very careful in your dealings with her.

"I welcome all allies in the fight against A.A. hegemony" -Orange

www.leavingaa.com www.expaa.org

NA DAYTONA Violent Criminals Mandated to AA and NA Meetings
http://nadaytona.org/alcoholics-anonymous-votes-no-to-protect-members-from...

AntiDenial's picture

What about your famous attack therapy JR? Do you think for one second that maybe, just maybe some of the criticism referred to you bullying people on this blog? Mark and Ilses post was about the OPF mostly. So it makes sense to address their points.

"I welcome all allies in the fight against A.A. hegemony" -Orange

www.leavingaa.com www.expaa.org

NA DAYTONA Violent Criminals Mandated to AA and NA Meetings
http://nadaytona.org/alcoholics-anonymous-votes-no-to-protect-members-from...

AntiDenial's picture

If any of this has to do with me, it is from the observation of others that saw how I and others have been bullied on this forum and that it has side tracked the forum making the movement look bad.

"I welcome all allies in the fight against A.A. hegemony" -Orange

www.leavingaa.com www.expaa.org

NA DAYTONA Violent Criminals Mandated to AA and NA Meetings
http://nadaytona.org/alcoholics-anonymous-votes-no-to-protect-members-from...

JR Harris's picture

Unbelievable, Mark and Isle really did a number on you with their experiment AntiDenial. First you attack Gunthar because of deep rooted resentment because he complained about you stalking the NA members in Holly Hill park and posting pictures of them online. Now your attacking PIE because of her friendship with an AA member. Talk about circular logic. I guess the funniest thing is that over on the Queen bee's site the posters on there are calling CBS News and reporting all of this. Yeah, You, Mark, Ilse and the Queen Bee are really making this entire movement look foolish. Congratulations and I guess your plan didn't go as well as you had hoped.. http://leavingaa.com/shameless-shamelessly-promoting-narcotics-anonymous... http://web.archive.org/web/20140408030124/http://leavingaa.com/shameless...

~You can not moderate the truth. Just don't lie, steal or make stuff up out of thin air and expect to get away with it without it being pointed out to you. It's really very simple.~

AntiDenial's picture

Gunther accuse me of many things. I have never stalked anyone in my life. Stalking is a crime. I am a law abiding citizen. That just showed another time Gunther was being a bully. Yet he does not like it when people are mean to him. I hope Gunther is okay in the long run and I was actually worried about him last night. He still hijacked this forum and it is still being redirected to AA.org. Do you think that is okay JR? What other access does he have to this forum? Clara is not just an AA member. She has hurt many people and banned for very good reasons. Clara also attacked PIE all over the internet causing PIE much as well. It is just bizarre. PIE must be very lonely and vulnerable to befriend her. I just hope PIE is very careful in her new friendship with Clara who was banned from the OPF.

"I welcome all allies in the fight against A.A. hegemony" -Orange

www.leavingaa.com www.expaa.org

NA DAYTONA Violent Criminals Mandated to AA and NA Meetings
http://nadaytona.org/alcoholics-anonymous-votes-no-to-protect-members-from...

AntiDenial's picture

Did you not tell Gunther you wished he carried out his suicidal ideations? That was wrong! You knew that telling people you were now great buds with Clara would upset those that were harmed by her. She harmed people you called friends. Please stop acting like you are clueless as to why people are upset with you. You are both guilty of going too far.

"I welcome all allies in the fight against A.A. hegemony" -Orange

www.leavingaa.com www.expaa.org

NA DAYTONA Violent Criminals Mandated to AA and NA Meetings
http://nadaytona.org/alcoholics-anonymous-votes-no-to-protect-members-from...

JR Harris's picture

Try to stay focued AntiDenial administrator of nadaytona.org. What I am saying is this finger pointing planned, initiated and executed by the administrators of stkinin-thinkin.com on this site by proxy was wrong. It has now flowed over to the community of leavingaa.com and people over their are calling CBS News because of it. I notice that your site has not started with the finger pointing yet. Of course everyone knows that your site and it's comments are just a bunch of sock puppets except for a few comments you let come through from the AA members you are stalking and attacking in Dayton Beach, Florida. Why don't you fire up your website and and start this discussion with yourself, I'm sure that it would be funny.

~You can not moderate the truth. Just don't lie, steal or make stuff up out of thin air and expect to get away with it without it being pointed out to you. It's really very simple.~

AntiDenial's picture

Classic bully behavior accusing me of a crime. I have committed no crimes. So stop with the bullying. This impacts all of us in this movement. People can discuss their concerns about how people are acting and bullying others on OPF. You do not get to dictate who gets to express themselves and who does not. You do a good job of trying to control and intimidate others so people are scared to cross you and call you out on your behavior.

"I welcome all allies in the fight against A.A. hegemony" -Orange

www.leavingaa.com www.expaa.org

NA DAYTONA Violent Criminals Mandated to AA and NA Meetings
http://nadaytona.org/alcoholics-anonymous-votes-no-to-protect-members-from...

Anti--what was done to Clara was wrong. By me and others. That is why I reached out to her. If others don't feel bad, that's their business, but I cared about her feelings. And most of her attacks were in her own defense and because she was herself being attacked, and I don't blame her for that. But what was done to her was also not right. Anti, I would feel the same if your pic and info, etc. were outed here. This isn't about my "pain", and as far as the pain of the person who attacked me this week, no, I have no concern whatsoever. He has lost the right to have that sort of concern. Permanently.

I was clueless as to why I started getting mails from G. And he wouldn't explain. And you're also the last person I have to explain anything to, so see ya! I'll be friends with whomever I like. If people can't respect that, then I can't respect them.

Answer the question. Did you or did you not tell Gunthar you wished he carried out his suicidal ideations?

Did you just give me an order? Um, I don't think so. Screw this forum, or at least the segment of it now open to you, and screw G and anyone defending his sorry ass. And if he IS suicidal that's his problem, and I don't know or care. The fucker accused me of lying about having to get surgery. I don't care what his mental state is like or how the hell he acts on it as far as he leaves me FAR away from it. And don't ever tell me what to do again, Mr. Appropriate Screenname. (What is it this week with itty bitty men deciding to boss around women in vulnerable positions? New Fad? Dumb fad....)

LFOD--it's not just G. Looks like we have another person here who thinks he can bully people around and make demands. I think one too many assholes have shit in this sandbox for it to still be safe and sanitary to play in.

JR--I'm not going to say this has anything to do with ST, Mark or Ilse, because I do not know them. However, this does remind me not of Elan but of confrontational treatment centers everywhere. They withdraw patients too quickly (or cold turkey), and then while they are in a vulnerable state and experiencing a lot of pain, they force confrontation and questions upon them. "Break them down to build them up" and all of that. I didn't play that there, I won't here, and I suggest that no one else does, either. BTW, the post I made that seems to have been misinterpreted as being aimed at Gunthar a few days ago by him (and a few others) was actually aimed, as I have said, at AntiDenial--and look who has jumped right in to start with the confrontational nonsense, AntiDenial. As I said to LFOD, this sandbox has had one too many people muck it up to keep it a safe place to play. And, because it doesn't seem that NEARLY enough people have read THIS yet, or recently, have a bit of White and Miller as I depart, because this is really the definitive piece on confrontation in substance abuse treatment and bears a reread: http://www.williamwhitepapers.com/pr/2007ConfrontationinAddictionTreatme...
JR Harris's picture

Over the GW trailer by Nick Gaglia about "attack therapy" in the troubled teen industry. Note the smile that Virgil Miller Newton has after he starts the whole thing (he is the reverend looking dude. Opps that is right he is a reverend). Anyway, the kids that took part in this stuff pretty much have forgiven each other for what transpired during those "sessions" and laid the blame on the guy laughing about what he caused while trying to minimize and make excuses for what he did. He started everything and only jumped in every once and a while to start the "fun" over again.

~You can not moderate the truth. Just don't lie, steal or make stuff up out of thin air and expect to get away with it without it being pointed out to you. It's really very simple.~

JR Harris's picture

~You can not moderate the truth. Just don't lie, steal or make stuff up out of thin air and expect to get away with it without it being pointed out to you. It's really very simple.~

AntiDenial's picture

According to a comment Gunther made who wrote last night on OPF- "And later To Me through skype… You big fat slob. I hope you give in to those suicidal tendencies."

"I welcome all allies in the fight against A.A. hegemony" -Orange

www.leavingaa.com www.expaa.org

NA DAYTONA Violent Criminals Mandated to AA and NA Meetings
http://nadaytona.org/alcoholics-anonymous-votes-no-to-protect-members-from...

JR Harris's picture

I thought we were going to get past this AntiDenial? Why have your last few comments been made to start this whole thing up again? Please just stop, enough damage has already been done. There is no need to fan the flames anymore.

~You can not moderate the truth. Just don't lie, steal or make stuff up out of thin air and expect to get away with it without it being pointed out to you. It's really very simple.~

AntiDenial's picture

Oh you are so funny! You accused me of a crime a couple of hours ago. So is that what you call getting past it? I think you practice in getting past things.

"I welcome all allies in the fight against A.A. hegemony" -Orange

www.leavingaa.com www.expaa.org

NA DAYTONA Violent Criminals Mandated to AA and NA Meetings
http://nadaytona.org/alcoholics-anonymous-votes-no-to-protect-members-from...

JR Harris's picture

Hmmm.... Interesting that the victory dance has continued on other forums..... even just a few minutes ago. https://web.archive.org/web/20140409005054/http://expaa.org

~You can not moderate the truth. Just don't lie, steal or make stuff up out of thin air and expect to get away with it without it being pointed out to you. It's really very simple.~

SimonTemplar's picture

JR your undeerstanding comes from experience. Having been left 5 1/2 days to die/by USArmy Colonel being tortured/part o was being stabbed circle twice My understanding is clear/can see murdereres/sadists/viscious persons and for what I've been doing/=ability to read between the lines. 2 things do not BELIEVE IN =COINCIDENCE& ACCIDENTS One medic got my goat/accidentally came out o bathroom timed exactly to walk him into a wall/he got hurt. COINCIDENCE-Mark& Ilse show up and brand NEW SHITSTORM I accept your understanding=NO COINCIDENCE LFOD=Gunthars click hack /not acceptable behavour. Inside him anger that' been attacking many w/o real causes. gunthar needs help,but pushes all away FROM him so he's neer gonna accept help/ANGER allows feeling o power when angry LOOk at me/I'm soo FULL O IT / full o power/to hurt/damage/harm. My opinion/okaY OPINION click hack says it all.leaving w/hatred & attacks on OPF. AA'ERS defintely take all on OPF immedaitely "look at them /see 12 works." Sad spin/twisted minds /bent reality but we've got something TO PROTECT. Am glad for now he's gone .Too many harmed by his actions. PIE-best o luck w/recovery.Where Gunthars behaviours come from I don't know but don't accept any excuse for what he's done to you and understand perfectly saying " DROP DEAD."a--ole I would hae said same. 5th& 6th I listened to Prem/something he said is eating at me. what ever happens do not allow it to become an EXCUSE TO QUIT. There is no excuse to quit.Look throughout history and see those whom we respect/honor worship /they hit obstacles/went around them through them.Wha eer you encounter do not allow it to become an excuse to QUIT Kabir/haridas/Nanak.Tulsidas/Jesus/Buddha/so many great ones persevered. Another that is becomeing a MANTRA/when I got off the train in Chiangmai/almost 9 years ago/my first words were to someoen blocking my path/GET OUT OF MY WAY!! Meouw is dead /food poisoning/but she reminded me of my first words. Prem again said good thing to say="GET OUT OF MY WAY!!!" i WAKE up crying /been hard 5-9 years ehre but can I allow what others have done to become my excuse to quit TO QUIT/ TO GIVE UP. Long ago/early years word overused was SURRENDER. new definition =when drop o water-which is so very powerful/it moves boulders washes away obstacles.joins w other drops/becomes huge mightly river when it finally returns to it's source/the OCEAN IT SURRENDERS/MERGES and no choice/to rise again join the clouds do it again/reak havoc cross oceans havoc in USA/UK/EUROPE/INDIA rains fall reak havoc ehre in N.Thailand we got hit w/40cm of hail stones/in less than one day hard snow falls about 40 centimeters deep/Yo's g-ma's house hit hard N.T-land ---??? snow ???? luke hep-hailstorm.??/ If what we are doing is worth doing them lets just get them outn our way and do it. NO EXCUSES TO QUIT/our enemies would love for us to quit/or keep infighting laughing while shitstorsm get stirred up. JR has ahd experiences from which he ahs learned, become very sensitive to certain forms o abuse/awareness most do not have. lets see if we can move on and grow from this and for AA/NA all12 steps=GET OUT OF MY WAY. lazy waking up late/lots o self-pity but I'm not going to quit because of what group o assholes ahve been doing and will keep trying to do/=to stop me fck w/my life when time is coming when I WILL LAUGH AND THEY WILL CRY. Lighthouse returning to mtns.got tuned up.

I SPY

live_free_or_die's picture

lets see if we can move on and grow from this.......
I agree with this sentiment wholeheartedly Simon. Let us get back to discussing the destructive nature of XA/12 Step nonsense and continue on with pursuing alternatives to addiction issues that actually help people as opposed to harming them.
LFOD's Blog http://www.orange-papers.org/forum/blog/10857 ©2014 AA:MyNotGodHasItCovered® http://www.expaa.org/ http://noforcedaa.weebly.com/ http://12stepprograms.weebly.com/ NOT AA: Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS