What constitutes 'personal attacks on others'?

If someone lies, and you call them a liar, is that a personal attack?

How about if someone is stupid, and you tell them they are stupid, is that a personal attack?

If someone is assaulting the forum and it's members daily with all manner of bile, lies, pyschological abuse, but no "foul language", is that a personal attack?

If you tell the person in the last examle, "fuck you" (Read: piss off, get lost, go away, ..), is that a personal attack?

Inquiring minds want to know.


anything I've seen coming from a person on this forum. That's my take. If someone calls someone on their crap with foul language, that is their way, and I don't even mind. I like it that there are those who don't mind telling it how they see it in their own colorful, and often highly enlightening, language. I think they are brave for taking the risk that others might KNOW their feelings! LOL

I guess I've really grown a thick skin!

Orange's picture

If someone is out-and-out lying, perhaps we could learn a lesson from Sir Winston Churchill.

In the House of Commons, you're not allowed to come right out and call someone a liar, so
Churchill said,

"Sir, you are guilty of uttering a terminological inexactitude."



When someone uses them at me, I often get the feeling they are just trying to show off with an overly complicated vocabulary. And no, that is not directed at you, in case you thought it was. Just, in general.

When I use them I feel dirty, as a liar, and in need of a hot shower.

JR Harris's picture

I believe a personal attack is determined by a number of factors and has to be determined by no clearly defined rules. When dealing with Alcoholics Anonymous, many of the "true believers" will attempt to push the boundaries so that the opponent will bridge those standards and be banned. It has been my observation that AA members often try to use deceit and double meanings to invalidate people who oppose the slogans and tactics they use.

Do people reach a boiling point? Of course they do and no one can really claim they do not reach that point at various times during their lives. As United States Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart said "I know it when I see it" but then again that is a matter of perception. It depends upon what led up to an alleged incident. To give a set of rules to AA trolls will only give them ammunition to continue the onslaught and have them try to make the opponent break those rules by literally claiming "stupid" by the use of pre-programmed slogans and circular logic that many of the members of this site have learned to loath and call them on it.

Is it right to get angry and lash out on someone that continually uses the same slogan defenses?. I guess it depends upon the history associated with it. So the answer really is "it depends" upon many factors. Is it alright to get "angry?" The AA faithful will attempt to pull the angry card every time they can as can be seen on the blogs and letters of the Orange Papers. Were people coerced to blow their top and break the rules so that the angry card can be pulled? From my experience it would appear that monetary heated arguments do emerge but are usually only momentary, it would appear that when these momentary heated arguments become just a constant slinging of insults with no fact behind them, then it becomes a personal attack with no substance.

Of course that is just my opinion and it will most likely be taken out of context.....

~You can not moderate the truth. Just don't lie, steal or make stuff up out of thin air and expect to get away with it without it being pointed out to you. It's really very simple.~

and it's pretty tough to moderate.

I dunno. May be voting when a person needs to be banned is a good idea?

JR Harris's picture

Well, voting is one way, but then it becomes US vs. THEM which tends to divide the forum. As we can see from some of the more controversial posters, they want it to become that way in a divide and conquer tactic as can be seen by our latest attack at dividing the forum at http://orange-papers.org/forum/node/4347 . You see this was a direct attempt to divide the forum. For myself I see the best way to determine if someone is trying personal attacks is too try and divide the forum through post like this. I do not see them as being productive, only disruptive.

But like I said, that is only my opinion. The line that I believe is crossed is when people try and categorize people into one camp or the other and call them derogatory names with no facts or logic behind the incident.

~You can not moderate the truth. Just don't lie, steal or make stuff up out of thin air and expect to get away with it without it being pointed out to you. It's really very simple.~

like if everyone voted but may be 2. That could be the factor or something?

live_free_or_die's picture

Just wanted to welcome you back to the OPF 12kills.

and I am growing used to being on a forum where people really do get to expose who they are because of how you moderate it. I have been real angry about it at times but I think I get it. I get the good stuff that comes out of it. Now is that what we want? LOL

Today it is. Thank you Orange.

You can say fuck to a cop, if you say fuck you he can arrest you. Simple as that. I personally think it is foolish here to jump all over someone's case if they are not AntiAA enough and at the same time to patronize some fool that comes on here and tries to argue the benefits of AA. Why waist your time on the fool when maybe you could help someone find their way out of the mess that AA has made of their life.

SimonTemplar's picture

Over time on OPF/personal opinion is that most all substace abusers
haave serious mental issues/disorders and will neer
respond to rational reasoning.their own "ISSUES" prevent them from
'thinking with Rrational emotional behavior
RIBBIT/REBT they've lost some personal space and will respond
to any CRITICISM as if life was threatened
such fragile egoes and three stooges mentalites
dominate and there's little else for responses.
I've given up idea that OPF will function but rather
malfunction with assaults and attakcs for as long as it exists.
As said before "We are seeking sanity inside of an INSANE ASYLUM!"


I am fully aware that such a thing exist, but that is not the norm. If you want to foist that on me then you are barking up the wrong tree. Just because everyone is doing it does not make it sane. One needs to look no further than Nazis Germany to figure that one out. It was only a test bed for the future if you look at where we are now. So please, do not point out reality for me, I am having plenty of fun doing that on my own.

Being mentally ill does not give you a pass. If you concider that your condition, so be it. That is what pisses me off about this world, so many want to be given a break for fucking up. It is just the way it goes, weather you did it or someone or something else did it to you. That is where something like AA jumps in and takes you for a ride. You have been had, that is all there is to it. People bitch and moan about it, but that is all it comes down to. If drinking and drugging is causing you a problem, then do something about it. If you think something outside of you is going to take care of it for you, good luck.

SimonTemplar's picture

Think you see REALITY quite clearly.
Nazi Germany=hmm/yes majority were so wrong
When USArmy entered Camps/they forced locals
to look at what they BELIEVED IN/and had supported
MOST FELT NOTHING/but in one town
the local mayor and his wife hung themselves after
seeing inside these camps that were inside their city
bringing huge money to their town.
Hitchkock did documentary which only recntly was released
Amzed tosee after lifetime of being told about these CAMPS
to see films taekn by the USArmy during the war and see the atcrocities
supported by MAJORITY OPINION.and by Religion/ religious warfare
vs Judaism and because most agreed, did not make it right
Soldiers work was to bury the dead-one CAMP stats.
Grave#1 -4,000+ Grave #2 -3,000+Graves#3.4.5
one CAMP OVER 25,000 dead left behind by retreating German Army.
Fine example of how everybody can be wrong.Majority doesn't
make it right/just shows how deep illusions reach.
Enjoy seeing reality .Simply my attitude
this world we live in is AN INSANE ASYLUM !!!
OPF is reflection of the world of substance abuse.
Lighthouse in mtns/polluted grey skies in mtns ehre
.Can't see mtns 1 kilometer from my house.Praying for rain.
breathing oxygen from stainless steel tanks.


Rolf Ankermann's picture

Just in defense of the majority of the German population at the time. Most of them had no idea of the atrocities that were taking place. Most of them were scared shitless of the war and by what was going on and were too busy dodging bombs falling from the sky to have any knowledge of the depths of Hitler's depravity. My parent's lived though it so I have some knowledge of what was known and what wasn't.

The shit was going down long before the US Army got there. You are lost in your military bullshit. Do you think you were the only one that went off to war? How many went off, came home and put it behind them? It is so much bullshit, those that have been in combat went on with their lives and did the best they could. If you took the time to get to know them, you would kknow what I speak of.

SimonTemplar's picture

Agreed/most who complain ,piss,bitch.moan really do nothing
to create change.Simply complain.Some difficult to accept
decades of being had and fooled/played for fools
Doing somehing oftenn includes asking for ehlp
and finding someone with Knowledge that's valuable
that can ehlp
personal responsibily is reason many question AA
as it's a ticket to avoid any responsibility for actions
My children avoid me/we don't interact right now
and I've accepted that while drinking ,thye got hurt
Thing is/I can remmeber going to VA for ehlp
getting months inside wards learning but until
marriage ended /unable to stop
situation needed to be changed and I could not let go.
Simply deciding to stop is not enough.
Foods you eat are grown by others/so you have help to eat
Society does give pass too often to criminals needing jail
and often keeps harmless locked up.
Enjoy time on OPF/it will change slightly but stay place for
those who were played for fools.difficult to admit.
But there is some effort to find new ideas and ways to help others.
for My Girl Yo, "Money is God"/shall see what changes happen.
Lighthouse in mtns/how to stop pollution???


SimonTemplar's picture

so you were never there just quoting
from what others ahve said
You have never been in COMBAT AHVE YOU???
But such an EXPERT to tell me how I'm so full of it
to say Germans were filth/slime/pond-scum/white trash/insane sickos
How do you jump from WW-2 to my War??
Stats were 1938-1945 camps eliminated over 16 millions.
Going on long before US got there is why 25,000 dead bodies
Took long time to backlog all those dead for burial.
Being that I am RETIRED U.S.ARMY I never took time to
get to know them-Mr EXPERT/did I??/ Armchair General.
.wow pushed big button about Nazis killing Jews did I not??
Bettre to light one candle than to curse darkness.4/20


But so what, it does not give you a pass that you were. It is a disshoner to the people that I know that have served in combat that you would speak in such a way. You make such a big deal about it and they did not. They would not wish such a thing from anyone, let alone make it a requirement for having knowledge of life. They would tell you to get off your pitty pot, I know this for a fact.

NoAAUK's picture

Talk about Combat as little or as much as you like..........you've earned that right Mate

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

There is nothing else to offer. You have fond a safe harbor here, but nothing will do it for you. It is the smae for everyone. There is plenty of mental illness in this world. If you don't have it, there is a good chance that you have to live with it through the people in your life or the world around you. I do not wish to talk about myself here on an open forum, but I will tell you that you are not alone.

NoAAUK's picture

'If you tell the person in the last examle, "fuck you" (Read: piss off, get lost, go away, ..), is that a personal attack?'

I would call the above a personal attack, but its not something I would worry about on a computer.

if a person in my immediate vicinity said some of the above words angrily to me, then I would consider them a threat

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

criticoolthinking's picture

it depends on the overall tone and spirit of the words and other extenuating circumstances, imo.

the only thing we have to fear; is man himself. CGJung

criticoolthinking's picture

its the most important communicating sometimes, bottled up it can be unhealthy, and more importantly can cause a lack of flowing burning passion and thereby lower the quality/intensity of good makeup sex

the only thing we have to fear; is man himself. CGJung

live_free_or_die's picture
live_free_or_die's picture

I would say that the ONLY opinion of what constitutes personal attacks is Orange's.

Is calling a dead man (Bill W.) a liar a personal attack? Is calling a dead man a fraud libel?

JR Harris's picture

I believe that would be a "It Depends" argument. Using psychosocial analysis "it depends"upon the perception of the reader and the moderator. As I am sure we all know opinions change over time and what may not seem objectionable at one point, may become objectionable at a latter point. That is human nature and is constantly changing upon many factors. What is considered OK today, may not be considered OK tomorrow.

To try and "capture" what is OK today and make rules frozen in time is prone to being flawed and a recipe for disaster in the future. Opinions and perceptions change constantly.

~You can not moderate the truth. Just don't lie, steal or make stuff up out of thin air and expect to get away with it without it being pointed out to you. It's really very simple.~

SimonTemplar's picture

sUBHUTI/somewhere communication got losst
I seriously question WTF youare talking about
Yes,I know I am not alone
I've already talked about this on OPF so little late
to keep all o my life secret.
Fail to see any"disrespect" to other VETs
suicides after Vietnam=2 x combat casualties.
twice as many killed themselves after coming "home"
as died in combat 4/20 out
95% of triple war vets/WW2/korea/Vietnam
were all huge heavy drinkers/buried some each month
in Philipines 82-85.Few have lived through that kind of HELL
w.o becoming somewhat unbalanced.
.We'on same page but not communicating with clarity.
Lighthouse in mtns.


thank you for sharing with me Simon your journey. You are the example in my life of someone who went to combat and didn't fare well. I respect you and I appreciate knowing your feelings about it.

I hate that substance misusers are quoted as being mentally ill. I disagree. I think we live in an insane asylum and we know it? LOL

This is a hard reality to live in and to be helpless to stop. It becomes painful and we need to deaden that awareness. That's my 2 cents. That isn't mental illness, it's mental pain.

When people are coping with chronic pain they will resort to any # of ways of coping all day long. Think of physical pain. I get fed up after 3 days even if it's minor! Chronic mental pain is a given for anyone aware and smart enough to see human beings as we really are. Cause we're kind of fucked right now and the trouble didn't just begin yesterday.

I think it is cruel to decide people should just learn to cope with this kind of pain. It can be a real agony. You don't ask someone to cope when they just had surgery. Anyhow I hated having that label added to my already life long condition of alcoholic.

I have mental pain that makes my life unmanagable at times. I can admit that much and only that much. I cope in any # of ways which come out looking like different symptoms of different things and there is no root cause that can be corrected. I need to manage my pain. Since I started looking at it like that I feel much more sane and able to live with it. Sometimes I think I may even get well enough to take on a job again. It is truly exciting to me.

So yeah, the 'disease' concept of all these disorders bothers me.

I don't think the depression I have had is a disease that is correctible with a drug. It never got better with a drug for me. I have had to cope all my life. Even in grade school I was suffering terribly and it was because school itself just sucked. I had an awareness even then that life meant something different to me. I was not able to flex any kind of muscle toward researching that. I became crazy trying to cope with the pain of a disregarded life, and that seems the norm. Some people cope better than others with this doldrum society we have chosen, this strange way to live out our existence. LOL

Hope I don't sound too out there! Been laid up for 8 days after my left knee scope, sitting in the loft out in the forest. It's been raining lots and so comforting on the tin roof. Still white outside but it's the thaw! It's been a long winter. So glad I had my knees both scoped!

And the surgery center was so nice all I could do was give it an excellent rating in the survey afterwards. I don't see how it could be improved without no longer doing surgery! LOL And normies love their pain meds. It was a joke when I said the last ones weren't very strong. My doctors like, "Oh she wants something stronger!" and they all laughed, and he wrote out a generous prescription that says take 1 or 2 or 3! every 3 hours as needed! LOL

I've never seen that. I have always gone in whining about being an addict in recovery and fearful. I stole my exboyfriend's pain meds when he had a knee scope, (LOL) and took control of them cause I was so afraid he'd abuse them cause he wanted to control them himself! LOL

Omg! What a sick relationship with this sweet man in recovery. We were so very crazy in AA. Good news is we are both out. Bad news is he hasn't looked into deprogramming. I think it's important to get that disease model as far from your thinking as you can. :(

conversation, so do you think voting won't work like if was a everyone but 2, ratio or something, and we all agreed?

We could call someone into question and leave the vote open for a time so the person could see they are disrupting the forum?

SimonTemplar's picture

As I've written/I've spent some time in psych hospitals/wards
there was one Vet whose attitude towards others was
Screw all o you/I'll listen to Drs and psychs/you're all losers
Screw all o you's
So out he went /back into the"world" and next time that
I saw him /he'd lost one foot
he'd started hallucinating/flashbacks and was found
hiding in his car and had frostbite/it was deep winter.
so attempts again to help him and reaarangge his meds
and back out again with his screw all o you attitude
I don't need to talk with any o yous losers/whiners/pissants
and this time while driving/needs only one foot to drive
again started his flashbacks/had an acident and while
imagining he was back in the War/in Vietnam stepped
out o his car and --DEAD.
hOW OFTEN in AA hae we haerd get ofn dtuhh pity pot??
yet life continues to throw it's lessons and love at us w/o being seen
Often I am grateful to hae place to go and get away from my MIND
Place where mind can not enter
Prem has so many times said that mental pain can maek being boiled
in oil seem like nothing to us.
Mental pain is really difficult to deal with
I feel glad I choose to accept this KNOWLEDGE
and these 41 years/it ahs made difference between night and day
as when really wanting to ahve peace/feel love in my life
I know that it's just breaths away from this moment and is inside
so that's my take on value of knowing place inside where
there is no judge/no jury/from self/society/family friends
just an exquisite freedom to feel life
has been given to me/So when hae time take look at
premRawat on youtube/worthwhile /he gies funny strange spin on life
Looking forward to seeing myself working on films .books/teaching
Lighthouse in mtns/grey polluted mtns.


are saying esp. "Often I am grateful to hae place to go and get away from my MIND
Place where mind can not enter".

I can relate to the constant bombardment of painful experience. It is not enough that my upbringing sucked horribly, life itself has dealt constant curve balls, and I'm sure it does to everyone and that's why I only feel empathy with people who have been through even worse than I.

It seems like we are finding a way to cope now and that really has been what it's been about from the beginning for me. Meditation is a good practice. Feeling loved is learned as an infant? We need to feel loved? To have a god who loved me was a wonderful feeling but I could not keep it real. It is just too far fetched for me. But to have that place of peace and love inside myself is still a necessity, one I do continue to nurture.

Thanks again for sharing what it's like to have gone through all that. I can't comprehend it. I think you are doing awesome.

SimonTemplar's picture

Where ever I go always someone who doesn't like this or that
Was REMF=rear echelon mthr fckr who did not like
when I talked about combat/whined/compalined
he so wwanted to bbe seen for what he'd never done
He stayed safe in motor pool while others did the fighting
yet tried hard to be seen as rough tough cream puff
Was the jackass who pushed me so far it was leave or kill him
so glad to be on OPF.
So many lessons learned in War
mortality seen clearly for first time by all of us
who watched our friends get disabled or killed.
When I see my psych many ask and I simply explain
that I'm lucky to be alive/that I lived through 24 firefight
they most all understand clearly
many thais were in Vietnam,and fighting in Laos and Cambodia.
I've met many Thai vets from fighting in Vietnam
once when stopped at Police Checkpoint
when I told Policeman that my pills were from damage in vietnam
he choose to help me {almost lifted} me back into the songtayao
so many had family who fought or fought and died in vietnam.
Saw my psych twice today/will see again tomorrow.Good old man.
Always makes sure I have more meds than I need.w/radical therapy.
Buddhist-Freudian who studied for 6 years at U of Chicago.USA
Lighthouse in mtns/C-mai /today smoke grey city


Glad you have such a good doc.