defaulting to smart to replace aa is not so smart

especially when 75% of all people with substance abuse issues learn to moderate. and smart not only does not allow anger toward aa as official smart policy - but anger toward anything is seen as a flawed emotion. tom horvath is a twit. hams is more open minded yet its still amateur hour. when i recommend help o recommend comprehensive therapy or nothing.

Comments

I'm glad you're bringing this up because I've just started to read and learn about SMART within the past few weeks. Admittedly, I haven't read all that much about it, but I do like what I've seen so far. At least they're promoting evidence based techniques that encourage self-empowerment. (Really though, I realize that the bar AA has set is EXTREMELY low and that just about anything looks amazing in comparison.) I know that they primarily promote abstinence, but are they down on approaches that don't? If they are, then I would definitely consider that a major flaw.

I don't know much of anything about Rational Recovery, but from looking through their website (at rational.org), I see that they tell people right off the bat that harm reduction is pointless. They use the example of Moderation Management founder Audrey Kishline being the perpetrator of a fatal drunk driving accident as "proof" that moderation never works. I strongly disagree with this stance, and I think Kenneth Anderson's blog post on this subject says things better than I can.

As for harm reduction being amateur hour? Well, I see where you're coming from with that too. Although I do fully support abstinence based programs for those who need them, I truly believe that increased awareness and usage of harm reduction techniques should be of utmost importance. Harm reduction was the first addiction treatment technique I began reading about back when I found out that AA wasn't actually the only game in town. For me personally, learning about harm reduction was pretty much lifesaving. I was in my early 20s, and although my drinking problem was bad - REAL bad - I wasn't able or willing to commit myself to lifelong abstinence from something that is everywhere. Kenneth Anderson's book on harm reduction for alcohol abuse gave me so much hope because I realized, for the first time, that I didn't necessarily need to commit to lifelong abstinence at age 23 in order to heal and stop abusing alcohol. It was the only thing I'd been exposed to that motivated me to do SOMETHING (as opposed to doing nothing because I didn't think I was ready to be perfect). Implementing harm reduction strategies in my life made a huge difference for me overnight, and they set me up on the path to eventually make bigger changes.

That being said though, the official HAMS Network website needs some serious, serious work. I wish I knew more about web design because I'd do it for free if I could. Refurbishing their site should be priority number one IMO. Even if that gets done though, I realize that actually getting the word out to the point where the addicts who need this information the most are going to hear it is a very tall order. I don't know what to say about that. I just wish so much that 12 step programs would stop telling people that they literally have NO other option.

Side note: Okay, I thought I was finally done with this comment, but no. I just saw that on Rational Recovery's main index page, they advocate a (quote) Zero-Tolerance Ultimatum for Your Addicted Spouse or Significant Other (ASS). Yes, they call the addicted person an ass. I don't really have time to sift through the rest of their site at the moment, but suffice it to say, I'm not super impressed. Sounds like the same old guilt mongering AA bullshit to me. Didn't SMART originally develop out of Rational Recovery? I'm not sure about that, so if anyone knows more please let me know.

fedup's picture

AA considers that any other way is the easier softer way! I managed to abstain while in AA for over 2 years and not do the steps! Not only was I treated like a dry drunk, but was repeatedly told I was looking for the easier softer way! The real AA way is doing the steps! I looked into Smart and they have nothing against AA. In fact they have members of their recovery group who do both! Personally, I dont see this as a major problem as they at least aren't making arrogant statements like AA does by claiming to be the only recovery group in existance which can be effective! I like that smart has real topics each week which most substance addicted people struggle with such as dealing with emotions, feelings, handling relationships etc.
Rolf Ankermann's picture

I'm all for moderating and I totally think that people who, for whatever reason, were sold that they had a "problem" when they were in their 20's, more times than not absolutely can learn to moderate. Again, the length of time that one was dependent and the reasons are major factors IMHO. I fucking hate surveys. One survey says 75% of people return successfully to moderate use. I don't buy it. SMART definitely needs serious tweaking and HAMS if fine but it doesn't really say anything other than you have 3 choices---Drink/drug responsibly, moderate or abstain. WTF is so revolutionary about stating the obvious?
NoAAUK's picture

I believe that Christianity and any other religion have much much more in common than Smart and the stepper cult. ' In fact they have members of their recovery group who do both! ' How can anybody actually 'do' both? Are you powerless against a dead plant (that has passed the fermenting stage) or not? Is a drink problem a disease or not? Do you have to 'work the steps or not? Do you graduate from the program or not? etc etc. Jesus himself said you cannot serve two masters? And yes I agree with others Horgarth is a total embarrassment to the Anti Stepper Cult movement and we do need much better than Smart if we are to resign this dangerous cult to the histry books
......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11
NoAAUK's picture

HAMS is the only network in my experience that recognises that some form of stepper cult deprograming is necessary for some people as well as genuine alternative substance misuse solving strategies. I would further say that MOST people who have attended any form of treatment whatsoever need some form of stepper cult deprogramming. In fact Joe Public needs some form of stepper cult deprogramming if we are to end this oxford group dominance of the Substance Misuse treatment sector once and for all. I have criticised Smart and some members of MM (I believe Horvarth is on both boards) in the past but it is not just Horvarth and his yes men and women at Smart and MM who practice some degree of censorship of the stepper cult. The whole rotten Treatment Sector practices some form of censorship of the truth about the true nature and doctrine of the stepper cult. In fact the whole of the developed west practices some form of censorship of the oxford group/stepper cult. We are just starting to see exposure of the truth of this cult on websites like the orange papers, but it may well take some time to reverse accepted dogma and the stepper cult has been practicing its lying, fear mongering, cult recruitment under the veil of censorship for a long time. For centuries mankind actually believed the earth was flat. We know that's nonsense now, as people will one day realise that the stepper cult doctrine is not only nonsense, but is actually harmful for many, if not most people who are subject to is absolutely nonsensical cult dogma. It doesn't help when somebody like Horvarth, who has PhD after his name and therefore should know better, actually demands censorship of any criticism of this dangerous cult at Smart meetings, but I think Genuine alternatives, like HAMS will have to develop if we are to end this ludicrous oxford group/stepper cult dominance of substance misuse and at last start to solve the problem. If you leave it to people like Smart this problem will just continue the same as it has since 1935.. Smart to me is just as I have said, an REBT night for steppers when they want a night off from 'drunkalogues' 'slogans' and general indoctrination. MM?.....well I don't actually know what to say about these people, they have a good idea, same as Smart but I think they have the wrong attitude at the moment. http://www.hamsnetwork.org/
......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11
criticoolthinking's picture

i notice a select few have editing powers?

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i embrace a multi-pathic view of disease and behavior science. neither is the only way for everyone, people are unique, some get diseases, some don't. some needs are beyond will power. some are not. group think kills individuals! critty cat.

criticoolthinking's picture

re: what is comprehensive therapy? ------------------------------------ i responded but it was deleted some how?

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i embrace a multi-pathic view of disease and behavior science. neither is the only way for everyone, people are unique, some get diseases, some don't. some needs are beyond will power. some are not. group think kills individuals! critty cat.

"especially when 75% of people with substance abuse issues learn to moderate". Where did you get this information?

The response is on the blog "The Anonymous People"--- "comprehensive therapy" is almost as hard to define as to find aa nearly drug society back into the "middle emotional health ages" when it swamped the therapy industry circa 70-80s. nowadays i feel a new world view posit in the collective conscience - - such that people are starting to know its truly essential to process the upset feelings.; wo blaming themselves for the sin of anger at any of god's will ...the WV experience i grew up in.. has changed and people are setting rules in therapy. therapy is best when it is best for the individual. that's my best definition. so anybody else setting the rules is supplanting their/wrong agenda. we need to participate/decide in our treatments. being told you are powerless is psychological abuse. individual natural remission from substance disorders is the silent majority experience.
Gunthar2000's picture

I'm going to test it and see if I can edit.
____________________________________________________________________ AA is a religious cult dressed up to look like a treatment for alcoholism. Link to original Orange-Papers website... http://orange-papers.org/
Gunthar2000's picture

I can't edit.
____________________________________________________________________ AA is a religious cult dressed up to look like a treatment for alcoholism. Link to original Orange-Papers website... http://orange-papers.org/
criticoolthinking's picture

yes thorough discussion of the alternatives is sorely needed. i look and see some lingo patterns with emotional repression in smart and rational recovery - and i am angry as hell at those who supplant thoughts into the client which are not their own origin but someone else's agenda - horvath / smart (which is his personal franchise) say anger is not productive -and - it's that same aa lingo whereby - resentments make you drink - and - if you get upset for a long time then you are sick - that's emotionally repressive abuse lingo - just exactly like aa. nobody should tell anyone else what or how long or hard they should feel . EVER! that's the first rule of therapeutic ethics. take a good deep look at smart - its rationalized aa under the hood. ( the god of rationality programs you) facilitators literally tell you what to feel about who and how long etc. frick that!

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i embrace a multi-pathic view of disease and behavior science. neither is the only way for everyone, people are unique, some get diseases, some don't. some needs are beyond will power. some are not. group think kills individuals! critty cat.

criticoolthinking's picture

thanks

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i embrace a multi-pathic view of disease and behavior science. neither is the only way for everyone, people are unique, some get diseases, some don't. some needs are beyond will power. some are not. group think kills individuals! critty cat.

criticoolthinking's picture

in the current mart of group think erroneously called self help whenever everybody has to do the same thing or they aren't doing it right. they are damnable de-individualizing program-isms. group-think-ism makes em sicker imo yes call it group-help not self-help. that's why - individual common talk therapy - is what i recommend for the individual who has issues - that inhibit their will power. which is a large chunk of folks by any measure.

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i embrace a multi-pathic view of disease and behavior science. neither is the only way for everyone, people are unique, some get diseases, some don't. some needs are beyond will power. some are not. group think kills individuals! critty cat.

criticoolthinking's picture

or i heard it in the collective unconscious of the universe? can't recollect now.

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i embrace a multi-pathic view of disease and behavior science. neither is the only way for everyone, people are unique, some get diseases, some don't. some needs are beyond will power. some are not. group think kills individuals! critty cat.

No need to get testy and sarcastic. I merely asked you where you got the statistic that 75% of all people who have substance abuse issues learn to moderate, a question you didn't answer. I sincerely was interested in the answer. (BTW- there are no wawa stores at the center of space and time-only 7-11 franchises and the collective unconscious of the universe is just another figment of Carl Jung's imagination).

"I like that smart has real topics each week which most substance addicted people struggle with such as dealing with emotions, feelings, handling relationships etc." Well, that's promising at least. I once suggested the topic of coping with triggers at an AA meeting, thinking that SURELY a group of adults who were all there because they're helping each other to recover from alcohol addiction would have a few practical, everyday tips and strategies that can be used in different situations. Instead, pretty much everyone just said something along the lines of "They only thing that helps you not drink is having a sponsor and working the steps. If you're feeling triggered to drink, you probably just aren't working the steps hard enough because that means you're not spiritually fit." THANKS AA.
Gunthar2000's picture

of NESARC data.
____________________________________________________________________ AA is a religious cult dressed up to look like a treatment for alcoholism. Link to original Orange-Papers website... http://orange-papers.org/
criticoolthinking's picture

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i embrace a multi-pathic view of disease and behavior science. neither is the only way for everyone, people are unique, some get diseases, some don't. some needs are beyond will power. some are not. group think kills individuals! critty cat.

The link you provided from the Orange Papers says nothing about alcohol abusers moderating their drinking habits. It states that 80% of alcohol abusers solve their problem on their own without any treatment.
criticoolthinking's picture

i don't buy your- i'm just ignorant - alibi, do you? lol

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i embrace a multi-pathic view of disease and behavior science. neither is the only way for everyone, people are unique, some get diseases, some don't. some needs are beyond will power. some are not. group think kills individuals! critty cat.

criticoolthinking's picture

google the stats if you want to form your own independent opinion i don't buy your- i'm just ignorant - alibi, do you? lol

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i embrace a multi-pathic view of disease and behavior science. neither is the only way for everyone, people are unique, some get diseases, some don't. some needs are beyond will power. some are not. group think kills individuals! critty cat.

criticoolthinking's picture

they are moderating even when they say they are abstinent

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i embrace a multi-pathic view of disease and behavior science. neither is the only way for everyone, people are unique, some get diseases, some don't. some needs are beyond will power. some are not. group think kills individuals! critty cat.

No need to get personal. It is not MY opinion; it is the Harvard Medical School's study which is the link you provided to me. Why are you so angry?
criticoolthinking's picture

to make and moderate trace amounts of natural drugs in our systems we are moderating even when we don't know it in our so called conscious mind - a mere sliver is conscious - yet all the rest is there - even from the beginning. awesome to imagine if i must say so myself.

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i embrace a multi-pathic view of disease and behavior science. neither is the only way for everyone, people are unique, some get diseases, some don't. some needs are beyond will power. some are not. group think kills individuals! critty cat.

Rolf Ankermann's picture

Are the NESARC "Survey" results not to be questioned or analyzed? Too many variables not addressed in my opinion. Plus it's a just a survey so I sure as Hell wouldn't make unquestionable conclusions based on that.
criticoolthinking's picture

only because you typed the letters angry

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i embrace a multi-pathic view of disease and behavior science. neither is the only way for everyone, people are unique, some get diseases, some don't. some needs are beyond will power. some are not. group think kills individuals! critty cat.

criticoolthinking's picture

anyhow its not the core of thy position which is individuality

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i embrace a multi-pathic view of disease and behavior science. neither is the only way for everyone, people are unique, some get diseases, some don't. some needs are beyond will power. some are not. group think kills individuals! critty cat.

criticoolthinking's picture

and perhaps thats ok/right for you now but proficient emotional health psychology is necessaey for me to approve something now watch what you .learn to accept

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i embrace a multi-pathic view of disease and behavior science. neither is the only way for everyone, people are unique, some get diseases, some don't. some needs are beyond will power. some are not. group think kills individuals! critty cat.

causeandeffect's picture

wasn't just a survey, They compiled an overwhelming amount of data on all kinds of factors. And what they found also matches other studies. Lot's of alcohol dependent people do learn to moderate at low risk levels, but not 75%. The 75% was the percentage who got better on their own, whether they abstained or moderated, which was approximately half and half.
criticoolthinking's picture

it has 17 nonlinear tactics /strategies/ ideas that all tolerate if not complement each other or not and that's a noble feat and non too easy to implement. but the security issue and the individual's focus is not managed and regulated by professionally licensed providers liable to legal ethics .... leaving group chaos recovery at best. which is maybe ok sometimes but does not solve many of aa's unaccountable abuse/havoc problems insurance could better spread the 30000 per mnth out over a year of daily individual therapy much better spent than blown all at once in aa rehab. i.e. Switzerland and Portugal full society drug law make over.

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i embrace a multi-pathic view of disease and behavior science. neither is the only way for everyone, people are unique, some get diseases, some don't. some needs are beyond will power. some are not. group think kills individuals! critty cat.

Rolf Ankermann's picture

It didn't take into consideration how LONG people were dependent for and that is a HUGE deal, I think, in determining how likely one is in terms of being able to moderate. People who had "issues" related to drinking for as little as 6 months or a year I believe it was, qualify for having been dependent. If you had problems for a year and worked them out, I would think the # would be more like 100% that they could then moderate. Again, ANYONE can moderate, it's whether or not the process is worth the effort. For me, not so much.
Rolf Ankermann's picture

BRILLIANT. Please elaborate on some of these earth shattering complimentary tactics. If there is really anything relevant or new here, please share. I'm not against HAMS but again, pointing out the 3 obvious choices available 1-Drinking without causing "harm" 2-not drinking or 3-drinking moderately is not that enlightening and hardly complimentary tactics. Suggesting to Pick drinking days or limiting yourself to 3 or 4 drinks is hardly a breakthrough in ideas. Again, it's all quite logical and very nice but it's mostly just stating the obvious. What do you do at a meeting, argue the merits of the 3?
criticoolthinking's picture

imagine they figure it out in as many different ways as their are - individuals. and respect each others processes choices and ideals.

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i embrace a multi-pathic view of disease and behavior science. neither is the only way for everyone, people are unique, some get diseases, some don't. some needs are beyond will power. some are not. group think kills individuals! critty cat.

Oh, I'm not suggesting that it's enough in and of itself. I really don't know enough about SMART yet to have much of an informed opinion about it. If it's true that both SMART and RR censor and prohibit any criticism of the 12 step cult though, then that's disturbing - especially considering that 12 step groups have NO problem not only criticizing other methods, but decisively declaring that they're not even worth looking into. The power the 12 step cult has over this entire industry is downright scary.

to see this thread. I tried to have a conversation about what we had in place, if were we covered, if AA got shut down. I see that we are not. So let's develop a fellowship we would want to be part of. What would it be? I like having topics, one could even be staying addiction free while deprogramming from AA/NA. I don't think it's healthy or valuable to be unable to discuss the truth. Some people don't need abstinence but could sure use help moderating through rough patches. Whatever, a fellowship to help the suffering, like what I would have wanted when unfortunately AA got the hold on me.

No, I am not angry at all. Why would you say that? I merely asked a question. That is all. I really do not understand where you are coming from.
NoAAUK's picture

'If it's true that both SMART and RR censor and prohibit any criticism of the 12 step cult though, then that's disturbing ' Smart not only prohibit any criticism of the lying , fear mongering, coercive, predatory stepper cult but some steppers and stepper friendly individuals actually run Smart meetings in the UK . I've mentioned this more than once in the past, when I tried to start a Smart meeting at Turning Point Westminster London, I was locked out of the building by a professional counsellor and stepper who then proceeded to run the meeting of which I was Smarts official facilitator. Smart UK were informed of the situation but still allowed this meeting to take place and later when I asked why this meeting was still on Smart UK's website, I was told that this stepper had completed a Smart facilitators course. talk about 'bums on seats' Smart is a joke in my opinion and no real use to anybody that has been indoctrinated by the stepper cult. Censorship of any criticism of the 1930's stepper/oxford group cult is still censorship, whether practiced by the steppers themselves, the treatment industry, the Media or Smart Recovery. Does anybody really want to attend another meeting where these cult members attend, let alone run it? Why don't they just hold hands and chant and regurgitate the same old cult indoctrination at their own meetings and leave others who don't want to hear their cult speak or associate with them again alone at genuine alternatives?. Perhaps its because they are under the misguided impression (Ch 7 of that cult instruction manual the BB) that recruiting frightened, vulnerable, fresh victims into this cult, whether they want to be recruited or not, somehow keeps them sober. 'The power the 12 step cult has over this entire industry is downright scary.' Yes, the power this lying, fear mongering, predatory cult has over the Treatment Sector, in fact most of the so called advanced western civilisation, is down right frightening, that's why many believe this is satans cult. The extensive use of fear and lies and indoctrination is also a dead give away as to who the real HP is behind this insanity. I've been told by others that I play into the steppers hands, probably by my outright condemnation of this cult, but I believe any censorship of criticism of this cult actually plays into their hands, no matter who advocates or practices it. And why does any censorship of criticism of these dangerous brainwashed cut groupies need to be applied? Have these people got a hell of a lot to hide, like actually NOT working as a cure for substance misuse as well as more sinister activities? or are these people so holy and spiritual (not religious) that they alone are above criticism in this world? The whole Treatment Sector is a mess, no wonder the West has a serious substance misuse problem when a lying, fear mongering, predatory 1930's cult is allowed to dominate the whole sector and censorship of any criticism of this cult (which is so necessary for deprogramming purposes, before a healthier scientific or proper religious option, or both, can be considered) is advocated by most in this so called Treatment Sector. No wonder so many go it alone......I wish I had now
......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11
NoAAUK's picture

I don't think Horvarth is responsible for this censorship of any criticism of the stepper cult, this censorship runs throughout the whole western civilisation, not just in Smart. I think the main instigators of this censorship have been the stepper cult promoters themselves, Horvarth and others connected to alternatives just play into the steppers hands for whatever reason best known to them. I do believe many people in Smart hate the stepper cult and fully realise the real harm this cult does to substance misuses, but I think they are afraid of upsetting the steppers who so dominate the Treatment Sector , which they themselves want to enter and would rather someone else exposed the truth about the cult of steppism, someone like the Anti Stepper cult Movement of which I believe the Orange papers is the premier website. When public opinion does eventually turn against the stepper cult, which it will eventually, there are too many injured people exposing it now and this number will continue to grow and grow, anyway when public opinion finally acknowledges the real harm this cult has subjected millions of fellow substance abuses too over the years with the blessing of this public, then I believe Smart and the others will throw out this censorship policy. When Saville was finally exposed for the fiend he was over here, many people said they thought there was something wrong with him. That will happen when the stepper cult is finally exposed on a big scale, people will say 'I knew this was a cult all along.' Till that day arrives its up to the Anti Stepper movement to expose steppism
......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11
NoAAUK's picture

Other people who are not addicted to any substance also struggle with dealing with emotions, feelings, handling relationships etc .......its called living "They only thing that helps you not drink is having a sponsor and working the steps. If you're feeling triggered to drink, you probably just aren't working the steps hard enough because that means you're not spiritually fit." The steppers have to say that, its just a cult.........how else are they going to keep members to prey on for what ever self gratifying reason the individual stepper is concerned with feeding, they need fear and untruthful indoctrination to keep members in check and reliant on the cult
......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11
NoAAUK's picture

In my experience which involves Smart, MM and HAMS, I believe HAMS is the best we have got and does need developing further
......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11
NoAAUK's picture

I'd like to edit steppism, wipe those 12 steps out for a start. In fact i'd like to delete steppism....permanently
......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11
NoAAUK's picture

I seriously think that HAMS or similar, a sort of combination of the doctrines of Smart and MM, without any censorship of the stepper cult and cult deprograming necessary for many is the answer
......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11
criticoolthinking's picture

i think rebt (rationalizing feelings away) is abuse just like diagnosing masturbation as a mental illness was abuse just 40 years ago they are so lost people need to experience extremes of emotion and they rebt tationally squelch the volume labeling it as undesirable unproductive because it makes their job easier a real counselor healer with deep compassion is too expensive, wtf? if it takes years than isn't it worth it to end the cycle of lack of compassion that is poisoning the whole world if the same money was spent as jailing and atf dea arsenals they could afford this help but switzzerland and portugal show it saves money and lowers crime no brainer / problem reduced / society's humanity partially restored

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i embrace a multi-pathic view of disease and behavior science. neither is the only way for everyone, people are unique, some get diseases, some don't. some needs are beyond will power. some are not. group think kills individuals! critty cat.

criticoolthinking's picture

12 step groups have NO problem not only criticizing other methods, but decisively declaring that they're not even worth looking into. The power the 12 step cult has over this entire industry is downright scary. ----------------------------- and in the next breath they say they don't repress other ideas - except if its an outside idea - which they simple avoid talking about because of being drawn into controversy - well ffs other ideas are always outside the aa black hole of enlightenment. aa avoids controversy by closing minds. it's superior cult-craft. aa has closed the public scrutiny off too the same way, no public dialog on aa's problems. they remain unaccountable in their datk lair. aa also goes under the public's radar by making people go cross-eyed and bored with mundane yet inhumane mountains of billshit slogans and halfwit axioms, at least lsd bill claims they are axioms. its a fog tothe public. like rebt is., people are more comfortable in their lack of authenticity. they are so lost. that why the war were allowed - nobody asks anymore. cause they are accused of being SO angry. when they get close to knowing how wrong the world is. i get tiredofbeing madnut its an integra; part of being conscious truly its required. they don't want us to be that.conciouis. many levels in the repressing system. blah........................lol.

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i embrace a multi-pathic view of disease and behavior science. neither is the only way for everyone, people are unique, some get diseases, some don't. some needs are beyond will power. some are not. group think kills individuals! critty cat.

criticoolthinking's picture

just because you said/inferred/typed [ i'm SO angry ] does not mean i am. get it? or maybe you can turn lead to gold, with your keyboard mind mouth wand lol etc? anyhow there's nothing wrong with being angry - is there? if so maybe you need aa aa meeting? especially for wasting time explaining someone eases opinion on the exact stats % that should be close enough for setting up a larger opinion. which you mucked up arguing stats which i think should be agreed to be too large a number by any measure or opinion. and that were not the major point of the post. .done now - until something worthwhile is asked..

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i embrace a multi-pathic view of disease and behavior science. neither is the only way for everyone, people are unique, some get diseases, some don't. some needs are beyond will power. some are not. group think kills individuals! critty cat.

criticoolthinking's picture

do diabetics have to do that perhaps because of how ashamed misunderstood they feel. switzerlamd and portugal have the healthier social change model which is what it will take to dismantle aa's puzzling lock rgar separates us in this [taboo/untouchables] society; that is now subscribe to.

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i embrace a multi-pathic view of disease and behavior science. neither is the only way for everyone, people are unique, some get diseases, some don't. some needs are beyond will power. some are not. group think kills individuals! critty cat.

Can you spell this out for me? I am not familiar with HAMS statement of philosophy or any of the rest actually. I am only familiar with SOS. It seems fine for those who want to be abstinent. I do not think the 'disease theory' is healthy in any way for anyone who's ever been addicted though. I think it causes serious consequence when someone who wants abstinence slips up. I can't support that in any way.

Are there links you know of to their concepts of treatment?
criticoolthinking's picture

but you can google it and get ;ots of pros cons etc my level of talking is advanced pinioning from along career w good in the ball park memory. linking becomes infuriating and an excosize in not imagining disrespect fromsome but not you yet...lol cranky bastard ain't i but maybe i feel for starting it as a separate focus topici hows that?

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i embrace a multi-pathic view of disease and behavior science. neither is the only way for everyone, people are unique, some get diseases, some don't. some needs are beyond will power. some are not. group think kills individuals! critty cat.

I totally relate. I have so much tolerance for computer time and when it's done it's done!
NoAAUK's picture

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

I feel like a total computer dumb ass but that is really how it is for me so I guess those feelings are honest! LOL

Mission Statement The HAMS Harm Reduction Network provides information and support for people who wish to reduce the harm in their lives cause by the use of alcohol or drugs. HAMS neither encourages nor condemns alcohol use or alcohol intoxication. HAMS recognizes recreational intoxication as a reality and seeks to reduce harms associated with it. HAMS believes in the autonomy of the individual and supports each individual's choice of a goal vis a vis alcohol - whether the goal is safer drinking, reduced drinking, or quitting. HAMS supports every positive change. The focus of HAMS is alcohol harm reduction, but users of any substance are welcome. HAMS offers support via live and online groups and offers information via the web and printed page. HAMS support groups are lay-led and free-of charge.