Alcoholics Anonymous (AA): Alcoholics Anonymous Is A False Religion? (authors of Twelve Steps To Destruction, Dr. Martin and Deidre Bobgan, Called Wicked).

An article from A True Church I. History [Most of the following history was taken from the book, 'Pass It On,' The story of Bill Wilson and how the A.A. message reached the world, copyright 1984, Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc.] The history of A.A. begins with its founders, William G. Wilson (known as Bill, or Bill W.), and Dr. Robert Holbrook Smith (known as Dr. Bob). The setting is New York City and Akron, Ohio, 1934 & 1935. Both Bill and Dr. Bob were captive to the sin of dissipation, being drunks, who (according to their own testimonies) no longer wanted to be drunks. Bill Wilson found victory over his compelling drive to drink alcoholic beverages through the influence of a Dr. Silkworth and an old time former drinking buddy named Ebby T.. Dr. Silkworth worked at a hospital in New York City working with drunkards. Silkworth convinced Bill that he had an allergy, and his propensity to drink and get drunk was an illness. In the A.A. book entitled, Pass It On, The story of Bill Wilson and how the A.A. message reached the world, it says, Bill listened, entranced, as Silkworth explained his theory. For the first time in his life, Bill was hearing about alcoholism not as a lack of willpower, not as a moral defect, but as a legitimate illness. It was Dr. Silkworth's theory - unique at the time - that alcoholism was the combination of this mysterious physical "allergy" and the compulsion to drink; that alcoholism could no more be "defeated" by willpower than could tuberculosis. Bill's relief was immense. (p. 102, copyright 1984) A little later on page 104 they write, Because he now understood what it was about, because he now knew that he was an alcoholic and could not safely take one drink, Bill believed that he had found his salvation. This knowledge was not quite enough though. Bill stayed sober for several weeks (exact time unknown), but soon went back to the bottle sometime in March of 1934. By November of 1934 Bill had been in and out of the hospital at least twice because of his excessive drinking, and matters looked very bleak. Then came along Bill's old drinking buddy, whom he had not seen for five years, Ebby T.. Ebby shared with him that he got religion, and it had kept him sober for several months. Bill was intrigued by his friend's newfound sober life via religion, and eventually Bill went back to the hospital (drunk, of course) saying that he had "found something" and apparently to sober up. Actually, in the hospital is when he "found something," which, as the story goes, was the turning point of his life. On page 120 of Pass It On, it records, In his helplessness and desperation, Bill cried out, "I'll do anything, anything at all!" He had reached a point of total, utter deflation - a state of complete, absolute surrender. With neither faith nor hope, he cried, "If there be a God, let Him show Himself!" What happened next was electric. "Suddenly, my room blazed with an indescribably white light. I was seized with an ecstasy beyond description. Every joy I had known was pale by comparison. The light, the ecstasy - I was conscious of nothing else for a time. "Then, seen in the mind's eye, there was a mountain. I stood upon its summit, where a great wind blew. A wind, not of air, but of spirit. In great, clean strength, it blew right through me. Then came the blazing thought 'You are a free man.' I know not at all how long I remained in this state, but finally the light and the ecstasy subsided. I again saw the wall of my room. As I became more quiet, a great peace stole over me, and this was accompanied by a sensation difficult to describe. I became acutely conscious of a Presence which seemed like a veritable sea of living spirit. I lay on the shores of a new world. 'This,' I thought, 'must be the great reality. The God of the preachers.' (bold added) One paragraph later it continues, Bill Wilson had just had his 39th birthday, and he still had half his life ahead of him. He always said that after that experience, he never again doubted the existence of God. He never took another drink. Even though it says, "he never again doubted the existence of God," it also records his immediate doubt. Bill Wilson believed he found God, but he needed the confirmation of Dr. Silkworth's assurance to be convinced. Now, doubt made its inevitable appearance. The experience had been too beautiful. Bill began to fear whether he had been hallucinating. He called for Dr. Silkworth. Silkworth sat patiently by the bed as Bill told him what had happened. "It was all so incredible that I still feared to give him the full impact of it," Bill remembered. "But the essential facts, toned down somewhat, emotionally, I did relate to him." Bill finally asked the question that was nagging at his own mind: "Doctor, is this real? Am I still perfectly sane?" Bill was always grateful for Silkworth's answer: "Yes, my boy, you are sane, perfectly sane in my judgment. You have been the subject of some great psychic occurrence, something that I don't understand. I've read of these things in books, but I've never seen one myself before. You have had some kind of conversion experience." Whatever the experience, he said, "You are already a different individual. So, my boy, whatever you've got now, you'd better hold on to. It's so much better than what had you only a couple of hours ago." Coming from Silkworth, now a central figure in Bill's life, this evaluation meant everything. It put the seal on Bill's experience, making it acceptable to the part of his mind that had argued long and hard against the idea of God. (p. 123-124, bold added) So, as the story goes, immediately before this experience Mr. Wilson did not have faith ("With neither faith nor hope") and even after this experience he had doubt (fear of hallucination). Mr. Wilson thought he found God, but finding God requires faith, as it is written, He who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. (Hebrews 11:6) Faith must be present. According to this A.A. account, faith was not. Moreover, Jesus said, Those who worship God must worship in spirit and in truth. (John 4:24) As will be demonstrated further, Mr. Wilson was in neither godly faith nor truth. After Bill's "spiritual experience" he began to pursue drunks. He desired to pass on what he had found and to help sots out of their miserable state. After several months of pursuing inebriates, he finally found a convert by the name of Robert Smith (otherwise known as Dr. Bob). Bill was in Akron, Ohio on a business adventure, and was seriously tempted to drink. So, instead of giving in to the temptation, he pursued finding a drunkard that he might help, and he was lead to Dr. Bob. Dr. Bob had a long history of drunkenness, and, according to his story, had desired for years to rid himself of his obsession with alcohol; but he was unsuccessful. When Bill came along, Dr. Bob was already pursuing a spiritual answer to his problem, but he was still unable to stay sober. But, with Bill, Dr. Bob found someone to whom he could really relate. And, being encouraged by Bill's message, Dr. Bob finally sobered up and stayed sober. Dr. Bob's last drink of alcohol was June 10, 1935, and this is the date given for the beginning date of Alcoholics Anonymous. These two men, Bill Wilson and Dr. Robert Smith, went on to eventually have convert after convert to their new found way to live a sober life. Their converts made other converts, and thus we have now Alcoholics Anonymous all over the globe. As of 2006, It is estimated that there are more than 100,000 groups and over 2,000,000 members in 150 countries. (www.alcoholics-anonymous.org/en_information_aa.cfm?PageID=10) The influence of the A.A. society has been massive and widespread. A.A. cooperates with a large variety of groups which includes the U. S. court system. Judges often order people to be involved in A.A. as a part of a rehabilitation effort. A.A. is also hand in hand with psychologists and psychiatrists. William James, who is known as a founding father of American psychology, was accredited by Bill Wilson to be a founder of A.A. (see Pass It On p. 124). Bill also acknowledged the influence of psychiatrist Carl Jung when he wrote in a letter to Mr. Jung not long before Jung's death, "Very many thoughtful A.A.'s are students of your writings. Because of your conviction that man is something more than intellect, emotion, and two dollars' worth of chemicals, you have especially endeared yourself to us. . . . "Please be certain that your place in the affection, and in the history, of our Fellowship is like no other's. Gratefully yours," (Pass It On, p. 383) II. Religion In what is called the "Big Book," in the forward to the second edition, also found in the third edition on page xx, this claim is made: Alcoholics Anonymous is not a religious organization. (Alcoholics Anonymous, copyright 1976) This is a lie. Alcoholics Anonymous is very much a religious organization. In Alcoholics Anonymous chapter two entitled, "THERE IS A SOLUTION," the very beginning of the chapter starts with: We, of Alcoholics Anonymous . . . " So, it is the society of A.A. speaking, and they say in this chapter on page 25, We have found much of heaven and we have been rocketed into a fourth dimension of existence of which we had not even dreamed. The great fact is just this, and nothing less: That we have had deep and effective spiritual experiences which have revolutionized our whole attitude toward life, toward our fellows and toward God's universe. The central fact of our lives today is the absolute certainty that our Creator has entered into our hearts and lives in a way which is indeed miraculous. In chapter five entitled, "HOW IT WORKS," the A.A. society writes, We trust infinite God rather than our finite selves. We are in the world to play the role He assigns. Just to the extent that we do as we think He would have us, and humbly rely on Him, does He enable us to match calamity with serenity. We never apologize to anyone for depending upon our Creator. We can laugh at those who think spirituality the way of weakness. Paradoxically, it is the way of strength. The verdict of the ages is that faith means courage. All men of faith have courage. They trust their God. We never apologize for God. Instead we let Him demonstrate, through us, what He can do. We ask Him to remove our fear and direct our attention to what He would have us be. (p. 68) On page 69 of the same chapter they write, In meditation, we ask God what we should do about each specific matter. The right answer will come, if we want it. In chapter six ("INTO ACTION") they write, We begin to feel the nearness of our Creator. We may have had certain spiritual beliefs, but now we begin to have a spiritual experience. The feeling that the drink problem has disappeared will often come strongly. We feel we are on the Broad Highway, walking hand in hand with the Spirit of the Universe. (p. 75) The spiritual life is not a theory. We have to live it. (p. 83, italics in original) We vigorously commenced this way of living as we cleaned up the past. We have entered the world of the Spirit. (p. 84) Much has already been said about receiving strength, inspiration, and direction from Him who has all knowledge and power. If we have carefully followed directions, we have begun to sense the flow of His Spirit into us. To some extent we have become God-conscious. We have begun to develop this vital sixth sense. But we must go further and that means more action. Step Eleven suggests prayer and meditation. (p. 85) Here we ask God for inspiration, an intuitive thought or a decision. We relax and take it easy. We don't struggle. We are often surprised how the right answers come after we have tried this for a while. What used to be the hunch or the occasional inspiration gradually becomes a working part of the mind. Being still inexperienced and having just made conscious contact with God, it is not probable that we are going to be inspired at all times. (p. 86-87) We alcoholics are undisciplined. So we let God discipline us in the simple way we have just outlined. But this is not all. There is action and more action. "Faith without works is dead." (p. 88) In chapter seven, "WORKING WITH OTHERS," which is "entirely devoted to Step Twelve" (p. 88) of the twelve steps of A.A., they write, Remind the prospect that his recovery is not dependent upon people. It is dependent upon his relationship with God. (p. 99-100) In chapter eight they write, Since this book was first published, A.A. has released thousands of alcoholics from asylums and hospitals of every kind. The majority have never returned. The power of God goes deep! (p. 114) "The Twelve Traditions" of A.A. are given in this same "Big Book." Note traditions one, two, five and six: 1. - Each member of Alcoholics Anonymous is but a small part of a great whole. A.A. must continue to live or most of us will surely die. Hence our common welfare comes first. But individual welfare follows close afterward. 2. - For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority - a loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience. 5. - Each Alcoholics Anonymous group ought to be a spiritual entity having but one primary purpose - that of carrying its message to the alcoholic who still suffers. 6. - Problems of money, property, and authority may easily divert us from our primary spiritual aim. (p. 565, italics in original) For a non-religious organization to have a "primary spiritual aim" is oxymoronic. Tradition number seven speaks of their "spiritual heritage" and number twelve reads, 12. - And finally, we of Alcoholics Anonymous believe that the principle of anonymity has an immense spiritual significance. Indeed it does. The "immense spiritual significance" of "anonymity" is that they are walking in darkness, as it is written, The fool walks in darkness. (Ecclesiastes 2:14) They keep it anonymous, because they are evil and they do not want themselves and their evil deeds to be exposed, as it is written, Everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. (John 3:20) So, the second word in the name of the organization is "Anonymous," and this concept has an "immense spiritual significance;" yet they are not a religious organization? You can believe that when pig meat is no longer pork. On page 182 of the "Big Book," Alcoholics Anonymous, they write this of the third member of A.A. Pioneer member of Akron's Group No. 1, the first A.A. group in the world. He kept the faith; therefore, he and countless others found a new life. (italics in original) At the end of this third member's testimonial, he says, I'm so grateful for both the program and the people in it that I still want to go, and then probably the most wonderful thing that I learned from the program - I've seen this in the 'A.A. Grapevine' a lot of times, and I've had people say it to me personally, and I've heard people get up in meetings and make the same statement: The statement is, "I came into A.A. solely for the purpose of sobriety, but it has been through A.A. that I have found God." In the forward to the A.A. book Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions in the third paragraph it reads, A.A.'s Twelve Steps are a group of principles, spiritual in their nature, which, if practiced as a way of life, can expel the obsession to drink and enable the sufferer to become happily and usefully whole. In the A.A. book, Alcoholics Anonymous Comes Of Age, they write, The society of Alcoholics Anonymous is spiritually as well as morally centered. Nearly every A.A. member comes to believe in and depend upon a higher Power which most of us call God. In A.A. practically no full recovery from alcoholism has been possible without this all-important faith. God, as we understand Him, is the foundation upon which our fellowship rests. (p. 253, copyright 1985, italics in original) So, here we have an organization that is not supposed to be religious, but it "is spiritually" centered and "the foundation upon which" they rest is "God, as we understand Him." That's as religious as it gets. Most every religion rests on "God" as they (that religion) understands Him. Also, on page xx they write, By personal religious affiliation, we include Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Hindus, and a sprinkling of Muslims and Buddhists. A.A. is a religious organization, and like some other religions, it affiliates with others of various religious persuasions. III. Idolatry As mentioned above, A.A. propagates a "God, as we understand Him." This is emphasized in both step three and eleven of their 12 step recovery program. 3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him. 11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out. (Alcoholics Anonymous, p. 59, italics in original) With this "God, as we understand Him," the true God continues to be rejected (Romans 1:18-32), and the acceptance of false gods (idolatry) abounds. For example, they write, When, therefore, we speak to you of God, we mean your own conception of God. (ibid., p. 47) If the man be agnostic or atheist, make it emphatic that he does not have to agree with your conception of God. He can choose any conception he likes, provided it makes sense to him. The main thing is that he be willing to believe in a Power greater than himself and that he live by spiritual principles. (ibid., p. 93, italics in original) This is exactly what Romans 1 talks about. It says they, changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man - and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. (Romans 1:23) In other words, they come up with a god of their own idea, a god as they understand Him. Romans also says they, exchanged the truth of God for the lie. (Romans 1:25) All men know about the true God (Romans 1:18-20), but they reject Him and follow after false gods (idolatry), gods of their own making, yet the true God they hate. As it is written, And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind. (Romans 1:28) This distaste for the real God is illustrated in A.A. literature. For example, on page 45 of the "Big Book" they write, Many times we talk to a new man and watch his hope rise as we discuss his alcoholic problems and explain our fellowship. But his face falls when we speak of spiritual matters, especially when we mention God, for we have re-opened a subject which our man thought he had neatly evaded or entirely ignored. Indeed, men suppress the truth in unrighteousness (Romans 1:18). Even though God has shown Himself to them (Romans 1:19-20), they hate Him (Romans 1:30). Another illustration of this is found on page 239. An A.A. member writes, He said something about God or a Higher Power, but I brushed that off - that was for the birds, not for me. But then this rebel comes around, because of the phrase "as we understand Him." Around this time our A.A. book was being written and it all became much simpler; we had a definite formula which some sixty of us agreed was the middle course for all alcoholics who wanted sobriety, and that formula has not been changed one iota down through the years. I don't think the boys were completely convinced of my personality change, for they fought shy of including my story in the book, so my only contribution to their literary efforts was my firm conviction, being still a theological rebel, that the word God should be qualified with the phrase "as we understand him" - for that was the only way I could accept spirituality. (p. 248) One "unofficial" A.A. booklet, Conscious Contact, Partnership With a Higher Power, more graphically portrays this hatred of God. In Twelve Step programs, we see the word "God" all over the place, hear the phrase "Higher Power" until many of us feel like we're going to throw up, and are sure "those people" are trying to force something down our throats. Even if we have a sinking feeling that we do need to take a drastic measure like believing in a Power greater than ourselves, we continue to resist the idea. (p. 4) But, when you qualify this "God" with "as we understand Him" or "as you understand Him" then they often find they can stomach the idea. Why? Because in this they can still hate and reject the true God, and replace Him with a demon. IV. Demons A false god, not as He really is, but "as we understand Him," is false religion and it is idolatry. It is the worship of a false god, and when there is idolatry there are demons. The Israelites of old sacrificed to false gods, and they are recorded as sacrificing to demons (Leviticus 17:1-7; Deuteronomy 32:16-17; 2 Chronicles 11:15; Psalm 106:34-38). Paul proclaimed, What am I saying then? That an idol is anything, or what is offered to idols is anything? Rather, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God, and I do not want you to have fellowship with demons. (1 Corinthians 10:19-20; see also Revelation 9:20) An idol is simply a false god, for there is only one true God (Isaiah 45:5-6, 21-22), and where there are idols, there are demons. Because of the A.A. policy of a "God, as we understand Him," A.A. is a den of demonic activity. In the booklet, Conscious Contact, they write, . . . there are probably as many different ideas about a Higher Power, or God, as there are people in Twelve Step programs. (p. 8) Idolatry and demons abound, not only in the many gods they make up in their own minds, but demons are the very foundation upon which A.A. was founded. One of Bill's persistent fascinations and involvements was with the psychic phenomena. His belief in clairvoyance and other extrasensory manifestations arose out of his conviction that our lifetimes on earth constitute what he liked to call "a mere day in school"; that we are all pupils in a "spiritual kindergarten"; and that life after life is a matter of fact as well as faith. This belief led to his attempts to get in touch with other lives in other lifetimes. Because Bill was such a sensitive person in this world, it should come as no surprise that he believed himself able to pick up energy from another. He thought of himself as having some psychic ability; to him, spiritistic matters were no mere parlor game. It's not clear when he first became interested in extrasensory phenomena; the field was something that Dr. Bob and Anne Smith were also deeply involved with. Whether or not Bill initially became interested through them, there are references to seances and other psychic events in the letters Bill wrote to Lois during that first Akron summer with the Smiths, in 1935. (Pass It On, p. 275) This book continues on and chronicles some of the contacts with "discarnate" spirits (dead people). A little later it records, As early as 1941, Bill and Lois were holding regular Saturday "spook sessions" at Bedford Hills. One of the downstairs bedrooms was dubbed by them the "spook room"; here, they conducted many of their psychic experiments. Of one session with a ouija board, Bill wrote this description: "The ouija board got moving in earnest. What followed was the fairly usual experience - it was a strange melange of Aristotle, St. Francis, diverse archangels with odd names, deceased friends - some in purgatory and others doing nicely, thank you! There were malign and mischievous ones of all descriptions, telling of vices quite beyond my ken, even as former alcoholics. Then, the seemingly virtuous entities would elbow them out with messages of comfort, information, advice - and sometimes just sheer nonsense." Bill would lie on the couch in the living room, semi-with-drawn, but not in a trance, and "receive" messages, sometimes a word at a time, sometimes a letter at a time. Anne B., neighbor and "spook" circle regular, would write the material on a pad. (p. 278) One of the "regular members of the 'spooking' circle" testified, Now these people, Bill and Dr. Bob, believed vigorously and aggressively. They were working away at the spiritualism; it was not just a hobby. (p. 280) The Lord says of those who are spiritists, as Bill and Dr. Bob were, and those who call up the dead, as these men did, that they are an abomination to Him (Deuteronomy 18:11-12). The Lord also asks the rhetorical question in Isaiah 8:19, Should they seek the dead on behalf of the living? The answer should be an obvious, "No!" The Lord continues and says, To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. (Isaiah 8:20) There was no light in the founders of A.A., Bill and Dr. Bob. They were an abomination to God, and they got people to abandon themselves to demons. We were now at Step Three. Many of us said to our Maker, as we understood Him: "God, I offer myself to Thee - to build with me and to do with me as Thou wilt. Relieve me of the bondage of self, that I may better do Thy will. Take away my difficulties, that victory over them may bear witness to those I would help of Thy Power, Thy Love, and Thy Way of life. May I do Thy will always!" We thought well before taking this step making sure we were ready; that we could at last abandon ourselves utterly to Him. (Alcoholics Anonymous, p. 63) Abandon yourself to God as you understand God. (ibid., p. 164) "Complete abandon"; "Half measures availed us nothing"; "Thoroughly follow our path"; "Completely give oneself to this simple program" - rang in my swelled head. (ibid., p. 349) Since this is utter abandonment to a god "as we understood Him," it is utter abandonment to a demon, because the "we understood Him" in A.A. equals the god of their own fancy, which equals idolatry (false religion), which equals demonology. A long time symbol of A.A. has been a circle with a triangle inside of it. In Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age they write, The priests and seers of antiquity regarded the circle enclosing the triangle as a means of warding off spirits of evil, and the A.A.'s circle and triangle of Recovery, Unity, and Service has certainly meant all of that to us and much more. (p. 139) The symbol hasn't worked. There are plenty of evil spirits in A.A.. V. Illness A.A. claims a lack of self-control in the consumption of alcohol is a sickness. In the forward to the first edition of Alcoholics Anonymous which is reprinted in the third edition they write, Many do not comprehend that the alcoholic is a very sick person. (p. xiii) On page 30 they write, We are convinced to a man that alcoholics of our type are in the grip of a progressive illness. Speaking of "alcoholism" they write on page 18, An illness of this sort - and we have come to believe it an illness - involves those about us in a way no other human sickness can. If a person has cancer all are sorry for him and no one is angry or hurt. But not so with the alcoholic illness, for with it there goes annihilation of all the things worth while in life. It engulfs all whose lives touch the sufferer's. It brings misunderstanding, fierce resentment, financial insecurity, disgusted friends and employers, warped lives of blameless children, sad wives and parents - anyone can increase the list. There's a reason there is such a stark contrast between cancer and "alcoholism." One is a physical illness, the other is moral. But A.A. wants desperately to get away from this moral reality. For example, in one testimony in the "Big Book" it is written, That was the point at which my doctor gave me the book "Alcoholics Anonymous" to read. The first chapters were a revelation to me. I wasn't the only person in the world who felt and behaved like this! I wasn't mad or vicious - I was a sick person. I was suffering from an actual disease that had a name and symptoms like diabetes or cancer or TB - and a disease was respectable, not a moral stigma! (p. 227) Another testimony reads like this: I realized that there were other people in this world who behaved and acted as I did, and that I was a sick person, that I was suffering from an actual disease. It had a name and symptoms, just like diabetes or T.B. I wasn't entirely immoral; I wasn't bad; I wasn't vicious. It was such a feeling of relief . . . . (p. 392) Smooth words and deceits comfort the wicked human heart (Isaiah 30:10; Jeremiah 17:9). Alcoholics Anonymous records their Lasker Award given to them in 1951, and they cite it in part on page 573. "The American Public Health Association presents a Lasker Group Award for 1951 to Alcoholics Anonymous in recognition of its unique and highly successful approach to that age-old public health and social problem, alcoholism . . . In emphasizing alcoholism as an illness, the social stigma associated with this condition is being blotted out . . ." (ellipsis in original) Yes indeed, the truth about the sin of drunkenness is being blotted out in the minds of many by A.A.. Nevertheless, the truth of God still stands. God sends drunkards to hell (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21). It is moral and spiritual rebellion against God (Proverbs 17:11), and the Lord will destroy these rebels in the lake of fire (Revelation 21:8/Deuteronomy 25:16). The only sense in which drunkenness is an illness is that it is a result of the disease everyone is born with, sin (Psalm 51:5; 58:3; Romans 5:12-19); and this is only cured by His stripes (Isaiah 53:5; 1 Peter 2:24). VI. Different A.A. attempts to convince people that sots (alcoholics) are a different "class" of people (ibid., p. 146). On page 30 of the "Big Book" they say, Most of us have been unwilling to admit we were real alcoholics. No person likes to think he is bodily and mentally different from his fellows. Therefore, it is not surprising that our drinking careers have been characterized by countless vain attempts to prove we could drink like other people. The idea that somehow, someday he will control and enjoy his drinking is the great obsession of every abnormal drinker. The persistence of this illusion is astonishing Many pursue it into the gates of insanity or death. We learned that we had to fully concede to our innermost selves that we were alcoholics. This is the first step in recovery. The delusion that we are like other people, or presently may be, has to be smashed. If drunkards are a different class of people, then so are sodomites, homosexuals, pedophiliacs, liars, murderers, fornicators, adulterers, transvestites, revilers, extortioners, blasphemers, traitors, impostors, cowards, kidnappers, sorcerers, idolaters, thieves, gluttons, prostitutes, hypocrites, backbiters, boasters, gossipers, slanderers, deceivers, etc.. They all have this same exact thing in common, a serious lack of self-control. VII. No Cure A.A. admits they have no cure, but that's because they are under the delusion that there isn't one. They write, We alcoholics are men and women who have lost the ability to control our drinking. We know that no real alcoholic ever recovers control. (ibid., p. 30) One man put it like this: Once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic. (ibid., p. 344) Another tells this story: One of the fellows, I think it was Doc, said, "Well, you want to quit?" I said, "Yes, Doc, I would like to quit, at least for five, six, or eight months, until I get things straightened up, and begin to get the respect of my wife and some other people back, and get my finances fixed up and so on." And they both laughed very heartily, and said, "That's better than you've been doing, isn't it?" Which of course was true. They said, "We've got some bad news for you. It was bad news for us, and it will probably be bad news for you. Whether you quit six days, months, or years, if you go out and take a drink or two you'll end up in this hospital tied down, just like you have been in these past six months. You are an alcoholic." As far as I know that was the first time I had ever paid any attention to that word. I figured I was just a drunk. And they said, "No, you have a disease, and it doesn't make any difference how long you do without it, after a drink or two you'll end up just like you are now." That certainly was real disheartening news, at the time. (ibid., p. 187-188) Indeed, it is disheartening news. A.A.'s 12 steps cure no one, and they even admit it. But, there is good news apart from A.A. VIII. The Cure Jesus' one step offers the one and only complete and absolute cure. If you abide in My word, you are my disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. (John 8:31-32) How can a young man cleanse his way? By taking heed according to Your word (Psalm 119:9) Taking heed to the word of God delivers from the bondage of "alcoholism." There is nothing else that can (Acts 4:12). And, once a person is delivered, they could even drink alcohol in moderation, because they would have the Holy Spirit (John 7:37-39), who brings with Him self-control (Galatians 5:22-23). a true church, P. O. Box 797, Moodys, OK 74444 1-800-HOW-TRUE; www.atruechurch.info http://www.atruechurch.info/aa.html

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live_free_or_die's picture

Are the Bobgans wicked? We contend that they are.
"Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy." Hypocritical leaven is to be found in the bread of the teaching of Mr. and Mrs. Martin Bobgan.
http://www.atruechurch.info/bobgan.html
LFOD's Blog http://www.orange-papers.org/forum/blog/10857 ©2014 AA:MyNotGodHasItCovered® http://www.expaa.org/ http://noforcedaa.weebly.com/ http://12stepprograms.weebly.com/ NOT AA: Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
jimbattle's picture

LFOD, Last time I looked, Darwin Fish was the pastor of "A True Church". It seems like he does not like anyone. He thinks that anyone who does not agree with him ABOUT EVERYTHING is wicked. If you don't do EVERYTHING he thinks you should do, he thinks you are wicked. The problem is that he can't back it up with the Bible by using the rules of Bible interpretation. So he's really just giving his OPINION although he twist Bible verses and take them out of context to make it seem like he's telling the truth. So "A True Church" is NOT a true Church. AA can call itself "A True Church" but that doesn't make it one. The Bible warns us about men like Darwin Fish. It says... "For there are many unruly and vain talkers and DECEIVERS, specially they of the circumcision: Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, TEACHING THINGS WHICH THEY OUGHT NOT TO, for filthy lucre's sake. (Tit 1:10-11 KJV) So there NO Bible teachings which show that the Bobgan's are wicked. But if you don't know how to interpret the Bible, an angry, crazy man like Darwin Fish can trick you into believing that there are.

The Anti-AA Preacher

jimbattle's picture

LFOD, You posted a quote from this so-called "True Church" as though they are good proof that the authors of "12 Steps to Destruction" are wicked. Here are the quotes you posted: "Are the Bobgans wicked? We contend that they are." So what if this ONE church says that the Bobgans are wicked. Does what ONE church believes make it true? Of course not. So you are showing that you are either gullible or deceitful by posting this as evidence against someone. Then you posted a Bible verse and an OPINION of this ONE church as though this proves the Bobgans are wicked. You posted: ""Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy." Hypocritical leaven is to be found in the bread of the teaching of Mr. and Mrs. Martin Bobgan." But what you did NOT do is show us what this hypocritical leaven is. So show us what it is? If you do not, you just using unproven accusations because you don't like what the Bobgans are saying in their book. And, like I said before, this proves that you are either gullible or you are using a deceitful trick to slander the Bobgans. So show us the "Hypocritical leaven" that is "in the teaching of Mr. and Mrs. Martin Bobgan." If you, you have NOT proven that the Bobgans are wicked OR that there is something wrong with their teachings. I'll be waiting. By the way, why would you take the word of ONE church when there are many churches who do NOT think the Bobgans are wicked or that their teachings are false? This proves that you are desperate to find anything you can to make their teachings sound false and dangerous OR that you are very gullible. Judging by things you've said about me in the past, I think it's the first thing I said. "But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived." (2Ti 3:13 KJV)

The Anti-AA Preacher

jimbattle's picture

LFOD, Dave Hunt and Tom McMahon are highly respected by thousands of Christian churches in America and around the world and these two men are very close friends of the Bobgans. They also promote 12 Steps to Destruction on their website bookstore http://www.thebereancall.org/store/Bobgan,%20Martin%20and%20Deidre. Here is another link the ministry of the Dave Hunt and Tom McMahon. You will see that they think very highly of the Bobgans books. I do agree with everything Dave Hunt, Tom McMahon, the Bobgans, or anyone else about EVERYTHING. But most evangelical Christians and fundamentalist Christians do NOT think that these people are "wicked". And thousands of them can see that the teachings of 12 Steps to Destruction are in PERFECT agreement with The Bible. http://www.raptureready.com/resource/hunt/dh2.html So giving us the OPINION of one crazy man and his church is worthless as evidence against the Bobgan's and their book.

The Anti-AA Preacher

live_free_or_die's picture

Mr. Fish, minister of the TRUE Church Ministries, says of of Martin & Deidre Bobgan: http://www.atruechurch.info/bobgan.html Are the Bobgans wicked? We contend that they are. Jim Battle ministries is using the Bobgan book as one of his bibles, therefore Jim Battle is wicked. It is my opinion, however, that all of them a BattleShitCrazy
LFOD's Blog http://www.orange-papers.org/forum/blog/10857 ©2014 AA:MyNotGodHasItCovered® http://www.expaa.org/ http://noforcedaa.weebly.com/ http://12stepprograms.weebly.com/ NOT AA: Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
live_free_or_die's picture

"Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy." Hypocritical leaven is to be found in the bread of the teaching of Mr. and Mrs. Martin Bobgan.
http://www.atruechurch.info/bobgan.html It follows, then, hypocritical leaven is to be found in the bread of the teaching of Mr. Battle. It is my opinion, however, that all of them a BattleShitCrazy
LFOD's Blog http://www.orange-papers.org/forum/blog/10857 ©2014 AA:MyNotGodHasItCovered® http://www.expaa.org/ http://noforcedaa.weebly.com/ http://12stepprograms.weebly.com/ NOT AA: Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
jimbattle's picture

LFOD, You said "A TRUE Church says Jim Battle in not a TRUE Christian". Can you show us where to find this statement? If you can't, then you are lying. But even if they did say it (which I doubt), my other comments on your post exposes the game you are playing here. "But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, DECEIVING, and being deceived." (2Ti 3:13 KJV)

The Anti-AA Preacher

causeandeffect's picture

Show us exactly where there is proof that "Dave Hunt and Tom McMahon are highly respected by thousands of Christian churches in America and around the world and these two men are very close friends of the Bobgans." If you do not show each church that respect these two men, you are either deceitful (which we already know) or you are gullible (which we already know). We'll be waiting until you can show the thousands of Christian churches that respect these two men. LOL

"I need a placebo like I need a hole in the head." Clark PA [J Law Med Ethics. 2002]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11905269

live_free_or_die's picture

Battle Claim - Thousands of Christian churches around the world AA Claim - Millions saved around the world Battle Claim of faith-healing - Jesus will get you sober AA Claim of faith-healing - GOYOU will get you sober (GOYOU = god of you own understanding) Battle is deceptive AA is deceptive btw, A TRUE Church says the Bobgans are wicked. Is being labeled wicked bad? http://www.atruechurch.info/bobgan.html
LFOD's Blog http://www.orange-papers.org/forum/blog/10857 ©2014 AA:MyNotGodHasItCovered® http://www.expaa.org/ http://noforcedaa.weebly.com/ http://12stepprograms.weebly.com/ NOT AA: Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
jimbattle's picture

C&E, Here is proof that Dave Hunt and Tom McMahon are highly respected by thousands of Christian churches in America and around the world. Dave Hunt has sold four million books which means that many hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of people have read them. Common sense tells you this. Now do you really believe that out of those hundreds of thousands of people there are not at least a few thousand people who agree with Dave Hunt and his co-author Tom McMahon? If you think that hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of people have read them. Common sense tells you this. Now do you really believe that out of those hundreds of thousands (or millions) of people there are not at least a few thousand people who highly respect these authors? Common sense tells you this as well. Here's a link that tells you that Dave Hunt sold 4 million books. I'm sure there are more but you will have to look them up by searching "dave hunt four million books". http://www.alibris.com/search/books/author/Dave-Hunt And if, for some odd reason, you can't see what I just pointed out to you, do a name search and see how many big ministries link to these authors. Do you really think that these churches and ministries are recommending the books of men they don't respect. These men (especially Dave Hunt) are very popular in Christian circles and if anyone takes the time to check into it won't take long to see that this is true. You also asked me to prove that Dave Hunt and Tom McMahon and "are very close friends of the Bobgans." I know this because I have been a friend of the Bobgan's for years and they told me that they are friends. Now it's your job to prove that we are not friends and that Martin Bobgan did not tell me that they were close friends. If you can't, then you have no proof that I'm lying about this. It's just your unsupported OPINION if you think that I am. I am not guilty of anything based on the OPINIONS of you and your suspicious friends who don't like what I say and do on this forum. And it's plain to see that Dave Hunt and Tom McMahon like the Bobgans and recommend 12 Steps to Destruction. Here is a radio interview that proves it: http://www.pamweb.org/audiofiles/TBC_12-step_2.mp3 And I don't have to show "show each church that respect these two men". What I've shown you and common sense is enough proof that thousands of Christians respect them because of their books. And you don't "KNOW" that I'm "deceitful", that's just your opinion based on bad logic and what you think is good evidence. And any honest, thinking person who has been reading the comments between you and I and your friends can see that this is true as well. So how many Christians respect Darwin Fish, the pastor of so-called "A True Church"? Can you prove that Darwin Fish is a reliable source for finding out if the Bobgans are wicked or not? Your turn to give some proof since you are relying solely on one pastor and his church as proof that the Bobgans are wicked and that their is something wrong with the teachings in their book. If you can't, then you are deceitful (which I already know). "But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, DECEIVING, and being deceived." (2Ti 3:13 KJV)

The Anti-AA Preacher

jimbattle's picture

C&E, You are so suspicious that I thought I'd add a link to the web page that has the link to the radio interview with the Bobgans. But I wouldn't be surprised if you thought that I ran out and set up a so-called Bobgan website and then faked a Bobgan interview with a few of my friends. That's the kind of insane suspicion you and your friends have demonstrated in your Jim Battle witch hunt. So you are welcomed to think whatever you wish after looking at the evidence I've provided for you. I'm sure that readers that are NOT on a Jim Battle witch hunt will see the truth. "But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, DECEIVING, and being deceived." (2Ti 3:13 KJV)

The Anti-AA Preacher

Apparently christian fellowships around the world a dewindling, we can thank the enthusiasims of mixed up mental minlsters such as jim for this exodus.

Brett

JR Harris's picture

Shouldn't you be performing exorcisms, circumcisions or other "isms" in your van on Christmas Jim?

~You can not moderate the truth. Just don't lie, steal or make stuff up out of thin air and expect to get away with it without it being pointed out to you. It's really very simple.~

causeandeffect's picture

You've proven book sales, not respect. The burden of proof is on you to prove that people are reading those books out of respect. You haven't proven respect, only readership. Now you can quote common sense and I would normally agree with that. But in your world, the common sense of others are not viable proof to you so I'm simply holding you to your own (low and dishonest) standards of debate.

"I need a placebo like I need a hole in the head." Clark PA [J Law Med Ethics. 2002]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11905269

jimbattle's picture

C&E, If you want to believe that I only gave evidence for readership, that's fine with me. I even told you what to Google to see how many churches link to him, recommend his books, praise his work, and quote him, and you simple ignored this good proof of respect. So close your mind to reason and believe whatever you wish. I'm sure there are enough sensible readers to see that the evidence I presented is sufficient back up what I said. "But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, DECEIVING, and being deceived." (2Ti 3:13 KJV)

The Anti-AA Preacher

causeandeffect's picture

Jim, you're so fundamentally dishonest that you're trying to pretend you didn't understand my point. I'm sure any honest, fair minded and rational reader can easily see this. In fact, I'm sure all the silent readers see this.

"I need a placebo like I need a hole in the head." Clark PA [J Law Med Ethics. 2002]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11905269

what constitionally incapable of being honest was, then along came Jim, he's on the troll big time, last couple of days, bloody grub, the quality & quantity of his posts goes up down sideways with his mood. I reckon jim's got his ambitions all mixed up with his capabilitys & can't see the reality of anything. Mentally ill dickhead, & he's got history for it. Only a matter of time till we find it.

Brett

causeandeffect's picture

True, Brett. I thought I had met some CIOBH people before. You know, the kind of person who would do something right in front of you then lie about it. But jim's the most dishonest person I've ever encountered because he's dishonest in so many different ways.

"I need a placebo like I need a hole in the head." Clark PA [J Law Med Ethics. 2002]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11905269

jimbattle's picture

Okay C&E.

The Anti-AA Preacher

jimbattle's picture

Okay C&E.

The Anti-AA Preacher

okay jim
fuck it.."were all stardust" tyson,dawkins,hawkings,sagan..various other people ive read
fedup's picture

This article was really good!! I gotta say I really like your take on religion and idolatry!! During my drug using and alcohol abusing days I have to say that I had more morals and standards than I did when I got into AA!! I was introduced to some pretty immoral practices that I had not until that point explored before in my life!! And until I engaged in rather questionable behaviour I doubt I had a real understanding of what guilt shame and remorse actually was!! I experienced that in AA as well......the longer you stay in there the more desensitised you become and the more normal bad behaviour looks!! Soo glad to be out of there!! I think I have more stuff I want to keep secret about from my time in AA than before I went in there!!