Ann Fletcher on public radio

Submitted by seagal007 on Tue, 02/12/2013 - 03:14

Maby there is a small slackening of the stranglehold AA has on addiction information. Ann Fletcher was on the Dianne Rhem show on public radio. Though she was careful not to critize AA she atleast promoted alternatives. Did anybody else hear it? Any thoughts?

Comments

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Tue, 02/12/2013 - 04:29

Replay of Dianne Rhem show with Ann Fletcher :Inside Addiction Treatment. Monday February 11, 2013.
http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2013-02-11/inside-addiction-treatment

More than 20 million teenagers and adults are addicted to alcohol or drugs in this country. Some go to residential treatment programs, while others turn to outpatient programs in their communities. But the vast majority of people who need help don’t get any at all. In a new book, health and medical writer Anne Fletcher describes what goes on inside many different kinds of rehab programs. She joins us to talk about the challenge of finding effective addiction treatment. We’ll also hear from the head of a residential care facility and a director of an outpatient addiction treatment center. Please join us to discuss the challenges of getting help for drug and alcohol addiction.

Guests

Beth Kane-Davidson director of the Addiction Treatment Center at Suburban Hospital.

Anne Fletcher author of "Inside Rehab: The Surprising Truth About Addiction Treatment - And How to Get Help That Works."

Dr. Marvin Seppala chief medical officer at Hazelden Foundation.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Tue, 02/12/2013 - 16:42

Nice gig.

Thats US dollars.

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Tue, 02/12/2013 - 18:57

Live Free, even though neither of us have medical training, I submit that with a month or so of training (mostly on administrative proceedures that have nothing to do with substantive medicine), either of us could do his job equally as effective as him. No one would even know we aren't MDs. What do you think?

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Tue, 02/12/2013 - 19:00

And don't worry if we had to prescribe meds; we'd just Google it.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Tue, 02/12/2013 - 19:45

Medication, we don't need medication. Take 12 Steps and call me in 28 days. If it doesn't work, repeat until in remission and you start bringing me more prospects. You and the AA movement can't survive without prospects... go forth and multiply! Someone has to pay for my retirement. Use yours to support mine.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Tue, 02/12/2013 - 20:20

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

seagal007

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 02:27

that the level of 12 step indoctrination is the most imprortant, not the quality of a medical carreer when getting hired at Hazeldon.

Understanding and Empowerment=Freedom

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 14:30

From: http://www.beyondaddictions.com/AboutUs/drseppala.htm

“Dr. Seppala was one of the first adolescents to be treated for addiction at Hazelden in Minneapolis. Following treatment, he developed an interest in medicine and went on to earn a medical degree…”

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 14:33

http://www.hazelden.org/web/public/bioseppala.page

"Seppala is author of Clinician's Guide to the Twelve Step Principles, a McGraw-Hill/Hazelden book published in 2002."

And some people wonder why I think psychiatry is joke.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 14:41

So basically this guy had an agenda and was already convinced before he even started medical school.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 15:15

It sounds to me like AA at Hazelden spawned their own little Missionary to go forth and evangelize and capture new prospects.

Hazelden even teaches how to capture your prey...

intervention for Alcoholics: http://www.hazelden.org/web/public/hff80302.page
Intervention for Teens: http://www.hazelden.org/web/public/teenintervene.page
Intervention training http://www.hazelden.org/web/public/chicago_adult_early_intervention_educ...

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 11:21

rather interesting as well.

At least people are actually discussing the failings of the treatment industry finally, there are reviews of this and interviews popping up all over the place.

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 11:30

Wow LFOD, that's good work if you can get it. Thanks for sharing that, it really says quite a bit about the situation, doesn't it?

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

seagal007

Tue, 02/12/2013 - 12:57

I dont know how to put up the links.

Understanding and Empowerment=Freedom

Orange's picture

Orange

Tue, 02/12/2013 - 14:56

putting up links is super-easy: just type the link, like:

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-jokes.html

and the Drupal forum software will make it into a working link for you.

seagal007

Tue, 02/12/2013 - 16:04

I will give it a go when I find something interesting.

Understanding and Empowerment=Freedom

criticoolthinking

Wed, 02/13/2013 - 17:57

she says - bill wilson did not say aa was the only way, and he did not like dogma? oh no? bill wilson just said you are constitutionally dishonest if you can not GIVE yourself to aa [interesting phrasing] at the beginning to every aa meeting in the preamble, and he told you what feelings were appropriate on pg 90 12&12. when will the ""experts"" interview the 95% who leave aa - instead of 100 patients in aa rehabs? agent orange isn't that hard to find? or could the orange papers be translated to a best seller?

If I could moderate, I'd do it alot!

seagal007

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 03:05

Its still to dangerous to peoples careers to critisize AA directly, to point out obvious problems like the stranglehold AA has on the treatment industry, or AA's religious cult nature.

Understanding and Empowerment=Freedom

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 11:28

I think Fletcher was pretty fair with AA in her book, actually, well, in terms of discussing it in such a way as to not be damaging to her credibility as seeming too biased. Maybe she isn't too biased, I don't know. In terms of treatment centers, however, the damage of only offering one method is being researched more and more, and I'm just glad it's being discussed.

The simple fact is that the vast majority of treatment centers are 12 step based, and that her research shows that most employees are unaware of alternatives at all, not to mention that non 12 step centers DO refer patients to 12 step programs when they think it's right for that patient, but that there is no reciprocity in that regard. There IS a stranglehold, as you say, and no matter how much it is pointed out that AA in treatment centers isn't the AA of meetings, or that AA itself doesn't run these centers, when the owners (frequently) and staff are members and all "in recovery" through a 12 step program, then who exactly else can be implicated in this stranglehold? Unless AAWS decides to declare all two-hatters to be "heretics" and not in line with AA teachings, or bar them from charging money for the program in centers and such, it is a situation in which AA (and NA) members have an entire industry almost entirely in their hands.

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

criticoolthinking

Thu, 02/14/2013 - 20:20

aa 2 hatter's working at 12 step facilitated rehabs have a blatant unethical conflict of interest when recruiting prospects for aa - their bias is no different than a doctor being paid by a drug company to dispense specific drugs. yet aa has some how convinced society that its recruitment motive is pure altruism and beyond reproach. if aa bore the scent of Islam or Scientology instead of Christianity it would have been crushed by society's bias at its inception. instead doctors relinquish responsibility as if it were a last rite of the church ritual. addicts are modern day lepers, abandoned by real medicine and seemingly unworthy of protection by ethics law.

If I could moderate, I'd do it alot!

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 03:28

'addicts are modern day lepers, abandoned by real medicine and seemingly unworthy of protection by ethics law.'

When is this going to change? When is the Law going to protect our people. There are a lot of steppers preying on vulnerable frightened people for their own self serving reasons. When is this going to end?

I see these people for what they are, but the public image of steppism is almost beyond reproach. There are, however a lot of steppers with much to answer

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

criticoolthinking

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 20:39

sooner or later some rehab is gonna get hit with a law suit for providing treatment with negligible outcome and that will be the death nail for aa's disavowed hospital and stealth mercenary recruitment system.

If I could moderate, I'd do it alot!

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 21:50

I know of a few people toying with the idea of suing a few of these centers following deaths of loved ones. I think enough waivers are unfortunately signed during the intake process, in which patients are not exactly at their sharpest. But the loved ones who were lied to and frequently footed the bill might be able to effect some change.

I do hope some face lawsuits. Some have been forced to shut down, such as the Pathway Center in Indianapolis, which was an abusive Straight, Inc. spin-off (the detractors still have a website up detailing the center's "issues", which I found most revealing): http://www.pfctruth.com/straighttopathway.htm

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

criticoolthinking

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 23:45

i'm astonished insurance pays at all with such poor efficacy, they must be in collusion some,how? banksters must have the system directing money to their left hand while paying with their right siphoning off premiums from the public with a over priced defective scam product that costs nothing to provide ($30,000 worth of slogans). and the customer is blamed and told to they are defective for their failure to recover, so they don't complain and are invalidated if they say poor efficacy might be the problem. wow 2 million vulnerable customers who are too ashamed to say the product is defective and told not to complain by aa sponsors - yes indeed interested business men seem to like this model. to recap i guess the reason this system is so hard to sue and/or change is the insurance company are usually in control of what it pays for and what it expects to get and i can only imagine they are in collusion somehow? mortgage fraud ain't the only dirty game in town.

If I could moderate, I'd do it alot!

seagal007

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 05:25

Think about it. Humble powerless little people greatful for crap little jobs and cheap chinese junk.

Understanding and Empowerment=Freedom

seagal007

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 05:04

AA hides under the protective umbrella of christianity, thats how they get away with so much.

Understanding and Empowerment=Freedom

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 03:17

'Though she was careful not to critize AA'

Why is it so dangerous to criticise such a ludicrous cult with a suicide rate and other totally horrendous evil properties. Those who seek to constantly change the world for the best should unite and drive this evil from this world, not suffer censorship of this cult quietly.

I’m sure we have all met this censorship of any legitimate criticism of the stepper cult, in particular those of us who have tried to promote alternatives to this oxford group nonsense. I also know cult promoters have a hell of a lot to hide, but why are even alternatives reluctant to criticise, let alone expose the nastier side of this stepper thing

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

dandammit's picture

dandammit

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 05:53

Why is it so dangerous to criticise such a ludicrous cult with a suicide rate and other totally horrendous evil properties?-
My opinion is people who attend the cult are defensive and protective. Like as if a hornet nest was poked.

Yes, take it down carefully.

('Though she was careful not to critize AA')

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Sat, 02/16/2013 - 21:45

Yes, some of them fly off the handle. IRL I usually let that slide a bit, while still telling my side of things, but it really speaks to the amount of desperate clinging some in the program do. If they were so very peaceful and serene, they wouldn't need to go on the defensive, then switch so quickly to the offensive, nor to condescendingly throw in "dry drunk" types of insults.

I think it will change, and exponentially. The growth of the treatment industry has been of such a magnitude, but this also means that many more people are being driven through those centers, and people with varying degrees of skepticism towards the 12 step aspects and lack of actual scientific fact. Also, the sheer amount of people being driven through these places include people who are quite well educated already and/or willing to educate themselves more on the subject.

In short, the more people you bring through those doors, the more people who might be less inclined to just accept being treated in a dehumanizing manner and be treated with faith healing instead of any scientifically researched methods. I think this will be their downfall, this forced exposure in the form of shoving the steps down people's throats instead of them wandering through the doors of meetings.

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

seagal007

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 05:12

Thanks Persephone, I never thought of this. Even I going through my last detox was speaking out against AA ideaology and strengthing my determination to stop my addiction inspite of AA. I didnt know it at the time but it was the beginning of me speaking out against AA and not just hiding in the closet.

Understanding and Empowerment=Freedom

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 05:33

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 09:12

I blame the fact that psychiatry is considered to be a legitimate medical speciality where people assume psychiatrists have some special medical knowledge that is beyond the expertise of normal people. If psychiatry (and by extension substance abuse treatment) were not a medical specialty, these treatment centers would not be able to so effectively shield themselves by saying "most professionals in the field treat addiction using these same techniques." As it stands now, with psychiatry being considered legitimate, people (and courts) sort of throw their hands in the air and say "well, these people are professionals, and who are we to supplement the judgement of those professionals with that of laypeople who have no psychiatric training?"

In truth, of course, psychiatry is really nothing more than fluffed-up liberal artistry designed to look like science. Once you cut through the bullshit and see it for what it is, the statement above would read something ridiculous like "well, these people are professional philosophers, and who are we to supplement the judgement of those professional philosophy majors with that of laypeople who majored in something useful?"

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 07:39

And for those who would defend psychiatry, can you think of any other field of modern medicine (or STEM field for that matter) where the type of nonsensical, illogical reasoning used by substance abuse treatment physicians would be so widely accepted?

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 08:43

Well, Pennywise, my GP recommended that I go to AA. Honestly, I don't think most of them really knows what AA actually entails.

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 09:17

I'll give the GP a pass since he is a general practitioner and not a specialist. But shrinks are specialists, and they most certainly do know what AA entails. Specialists, after all, are held to the standards of other specialists in the field.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 09:42

What about the increasing number of psychiatrists and psychologists who are speaking out against AA and 12 step billshit? Of course, many of them have to be a bit careful in doing so. In the past researchers, like the Sobells, who made discoveries that went against the 12 step dogma had their reputations destroyed and careers nearly ruined by steppers.

I think the problems is more that steppers, like this Hazelden guy, who think they know all their is to know about alcoholism because AA tells them they do, go into the field because they just want to make a lot of money from their know-it-allism. Psychiatry in itself doesn't promote steppism, it's the individuals who do.

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 09:49

Psychiatry, in itself, does not promote anything. Nor does medicine, in itself, promote cancer research. As abstract concepts, how could they? However, psychiatry is the field where individuals can promote their unscientific nonsense with impunity. Now I respect those few professionals in the field who challenge 12 Step theology, but those people aren't really saying anything that can't be discerned using ordinary, common sense reasoning.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

DeConstructor's picture

DeConstructor

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 09:36

continue to show up ALL OVER THE INTERNET, the biases, unearned admiration, and undeserved credibility that is given to the AA faith will shrink. Someday the ignorance that AA survives on will be impossible to be continuously used as an excuse by the medical industry who continues to dump everyone into it who has seen a beer commercial.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 09:42

Yes, I hope so too. I wish some treatment center docs or psychiatrists would come here to debate.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

seagal007

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 05:01

The fear of critizing AA is just that, fear. I got so frusterated with this I started my own group just to help people deprogram from AA. I find is simply amazing that the crazy cult of AA has such power over people in this day and age. I do believe that things are starting to change and more people are starting to speak out against AA. What is now a stream will become a raging river as people break away from the cult and speak out. AA for many years has successfully made the AA disenchanted feel isolated and alone. With the internet AA is loosing that power.

Understanding and Empowerment=Freedom

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Sun, 02/17/2013 - 05:44

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

SimonTemplar

Mon, 02/18/2013 - 11:38

Like the cartoon I Said before,at one meeting,I brought 1-rubber gloves 2 ky jelly and 3[12pieces of paper- numbered 1-12] I explained.you get the newbie to drop his pants.then put on the rubber gloves and add some ky jelyy,put all 12 steps on the end of the rubber glove and shove all 12 steps right up the newbies backside.Might not be a good cartoon,but expresses the same diarrhea.
Was another in a joke book that maybe I can upload.guy with cranial rectinitus,head stuck up rectum
and saying,I am doing just fine.
Pink's latest death.Tough to survvie the suicide of a loved one.She witnessed his death???
Research ,criminolgy proves the efficacy of psychology and psychiatry-they do catch the really bad guys,with databases and with anticipating his next moves.My tiny,tiny little bit of criminology research: makes me want to learn more.Espescially about the precede signals.McCready had warned that she was over the edge but noone gave her professional help.the quacks and frauds do not prove that shrinks are all frauds.
Increasingly psychs are turning away from AA.Mine is a professor,diplomate board of thailand and has brought out some things that 36 years with USA psychs failed to touch.Good human being.Caring and serious about his patients,AA professional12 steppers/long term diseases have only cause me to have huge anger ,when at going to ameeting,I felt great.peaceful,happy,after ahte,hate,hate anger,but so many want others to be dragged down to where they are.Pissed off.hateGod-boo hoo hoo,god did this to me,i did n'thave no choice.it was inmy GENES,?even rapist gene,killer gene druggie gene,They are of the Predetermination sects of Christianity,it's all predestined to happen.All under God'scontrol.whatever you do,it was predestined to happen.OMniscient means all knowing --not all-controlling.For my faith in god.I have to choose to surrender-otherwise my mind is in control,Then God does has as much control as i am able to surrender.Sad.moeny,beauty,and she threw it all away.
How few accept life is a gift.Woke up yesterday and did not feel glad to be alive,just pissed off'after 7 months about the sadistic attacks upon anyone who is happy/disagres with cult dogma.or simply trying to enjoy thislife.These links show clearly-it's got to cover all of the bases.?why-the drrinking and drugs.Whee is the pain coming from that needs to be anenthetized.Jobs,relationships. "hey who the f--do yout think you are that you dont come to meetings daily.get rid of the bitch and move here and you OBEY ME and come to meetings every day,he lost his last wife-she wanted him to take care of her but boo hoohoo I need to go to meetings daily or boo hoo I'll drink again.that one cost him big timeShe cleaned his clock for allthe $$ that she could.
Any ideas for patience with waiting for woman,and waiting for slowly deeloping a relationship.Damn but it's been so long since last wife,I want it to happen overnight,but,it takes time and paience and my effort to show that i am serious and can actullay be trusted.Difficult after loving a bottle for over 24 years to return to loving a good woman.Still feel guilt,blame and sahme and wonder why she want to be withme.
still learning to like myself.only god carries me with this experience of love and is always there for me with her/his love.Good feeling that I can go inside and find peace/love my best friend.escape insanity.
Candles in the rain
Little sisters of the sun lit candles in the rain.lit the fire to the soul who never knew his friend.
lay it down lay it down again.Men can live as brothers.Candles in the rain. Melanie.

I SPY

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Mon, 02/18/2013 - 19:05

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/