Can the Unpaid Volunteers, Board Members and Organization of the non-profit Alcoholics Anonymous be sued in a court of law? At least one think tank believes so...

Liability Protection for Volunteers and Charitable Organizations: An Overview
Good Samaritan Laws. Volunteer Protection. Volunteer Immunity. Liability Limitation. Shield Laws. Charitable Immunity.

These terms, which have significant, as well as subtle distinctions, have been used to describe laws that protect people and organizations in the nonprofit sector from claims, lawsuits and allegations of wrongdoing. Although numerous researchers, legal authorities and other interested persons have written about these subjects during the past 20 years, a tremendous degree of confusion remains about whether volunteers and nonprofits can be sued and held liable for negligent acts. More specifically, managers and leaders of nonprofit organizations continue to wonder:

-Can we be sued?
-Can we be held liable?
-Are there laws that limit our liability because we are nonprofits or volunteers?

Each year the Nonprofit Risk Management Center receives countless calls from nonprofit managers describing actual or hypothetical situations in which the nonprofit is or could be embroiled. A typical caller inquires “Could we be sued?” or “If we were sued, would we be liable?” To respond, we explain that, with rare exception, a nonprofit can be sued by anyone...at anytime...for anything.

We continue by explaining that determining whether a nonprofit will be liable for harm resulting from its acts or omissions depends on the confluence of various factors, including whether:

-the nonprofit had a duty of care with respect to those who were harmed,
-the nonprofit breached its duty of care
-harm actually occurred
-the harm that occurred was foreseeable
- the breach of the duty of care was a proximate cause of the harm that occurred, and there were reasonable measures available to the nonprofit that would have prevented the harm from occurring.

We then advise that all of these considerations will be factored with the laws of a particular jurisdiction and the perspective and biases of the judge or jury who will consider the facts in a particular case. In so many instances, it is difficult, if not impossible, to predict whether liability will be imposed. Legal counsel representing the nonprofit, with full knowledge of all of the circumstances and facts at hand will try to make this prediction and advise the nonprofit accordingly.

Source: Nonprofit Risk Management Center – (202) 785-3891 – www.nonprofitrisk.org

Download the entire report at: http://sfcard.org/GoodSamaritanLaws.pdf

Comments

Pennywise's picture

Yes, volunteers can be sued, and an organization may be liable for the acts of its volunteers under certain circumstances. But being a sponsor in AA, as you maintain, is not going to make that person a volunteer for AAWS. If you think about it, it should be obvious why this would be the case. But to spell it out, AAWS has no control whatsoever over who can be a sponsor, not could it. See, I can't call a guy on the phone, ask him to be my sponsor, and by virtue of that conversation hold AAWS accountable. This is partly because AAWS could not prevent him from sponsoring me even if it wanted to.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

JR Harris's picture

What about the individual corporations in AA all using the same "instruction manual" from the top corporation Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc. (AAWS)?

AAWS tries to hide its liability for publishing the "Big Book" and the General Services Board of Alcoholics Anonymous (usually referred to as GSO) implements the "training" for the cult. Both companies have paid and unpaid employees as is evidenced on their tax forms. But it goes deeper than that the corporations try to hide in sub corporations, but each sub corporation opens itself up to liability by putting their names a tax form. It doesn't matter if they are paid or non-paid and it also depends upon what state they are in. Go after the low hanging fruit first, here is how you do it from lowest to highest.

Group Level - many AA groups file a Tax form
District Level - most AA districts file a Tax form
Intergroup Level - most AA groups file a Tax form
Area Level - most AA areas file a Tax form
Regional Level - most AA regions file a Tax form

The idea is with any incident, you identify the group, district, Intergroup, area and region. then you dig deep and find out who has responsibility in these entities. The governing "quality of care" document is the "Big Book" and the "12&12" because that is their "governing document," just ask any AA member and they will tell you so. Follow the chain of liability from the lowest possible entity on up.Then ask yourself,"Did they know or should have known that a dangerous situation was happening?"

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

massive's picture

Pennywise , your wrong. If a sponsor coerced a sponsee to go to the bank take out money $7,000 to get the sponsors husbands friend who beat up the sponsee and dove her to make sure she did it rather then tell her to stay away from him...Then he go tout of jail and obtw , the two men did time in a rehab or maybe even prison together, just speculating...Then two weeks later when said victim wants to trow man who beat her up out of apartment , he refuses and beats her to death. I think there is a case.

I dont care if you once were a lawyer...you dont know what you are talking about. The Boy Scouts were sued and lost. the Catholic Church was sued a lost AA in NY will lose this one and hundreds of other cases will follow once they feel empowered.

Massive

Pennywise's picture

You really don't know me. Who said I was "once a lawyer"? Not I. But look, I get the message. You think you will win this lawsuit for sure and there is no way you can possibly lose, whereas I'm throwing out some suggestions as a layperson (not as a professional) why it might not go your way. I enjoy talking about this stuff for its own sake, but you're right, I really have no clue what I'm talking about. You've done the research so you know, and that's all there is to it. So I'll stop talking out my ass now and let the real lawyers do their magic.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

causeandeffect's picture

Well, I for one think Pennywise has the right to say what he thinks and his input should be valued.

We all know that it’s total bullshit what happened to Karla Brada. And we all know what AA’s part in it was. We all know that AA trolls prisons and jails for prospects, and at the same time wants a sweaky clean image where everybody just does the steps and becomes OH SO SPIRITUAL and OH SO TRUSTWORTHY. And we all that just doesn’t happen! They want to have it both ways. We also all know that AA has been warned and asked to act to make AA safer. Repeatedly! Simply following your advice, Massive, and that of Paul Cleary, would do a lot to make AA safer, yet they CHOSE to bury their heads in the sand. We all KNOW that, and Pennywise is no exception! But unfortunately, often what we know is RIGHT to do, and what is someone’s right to do is two completely different things and it often spells BULLSHIT! We know AA’s negligence is endangering many people. There’s no doubt about that. But the law often deals with generalities even when considering specific cases. They have to consider the wider ramifications to society in general when they rule on a specific case, and that’s where it gets tricky, and often where justice is just plain unfair.

Pennywise is just trying to show you what the opposition will argue, and they are points that need to be considered. AA can afford the best attorneys money can buy. If the Brada family’s attorney hasn’t looked at all these angles, he or she would be negligent in his duties, in my opinion. And it doesn’t mean that Penny doesn’t want justice for Karla Brada, or anybody else for that matter. It just means it’s a complicated case. I just hope some good comes out of it, regardless of what happens in court. And I’m sure Pennywise does too.
AA has engaged in negligence on a criminal level, morally speaking, but it still may not technically be a crime. Feel free to tell me that I don’t know what I’m talking about, because I’ll be the first to tell you I don’t. But one thing I do know for sure is that “justice” isn’t always fair.

I just want to say, I truly appreciate the both of you for what each of you brings to this table.

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

JR Harris's picture

I am actually learning a lot from this exchange of ideas. You see it is one thing to say that the lawsuits against the Catholic Church and the Boy Scouts can be used, but it is another thing to be able to point out the actual reasons in depth. Does it mean it can be used in a court of laws? Maybe, maybe not, but I think it can be used to sway public opinion and help change the policies and procedures of Alcoholics Anonymous. It worked with the Catholic Church and the Boy Scouts and both of these battles have been raging for decades and they were both involved with a coverup from the main offices of each organization. It can't be done overnight and it won't until the process of change is started.

Boy Scouts of America forced to release 2000 Abuse cases they had files on June 14th, 2012 because of a lawsuit
http://orange-papers.org/forum/node/3167

AA needs a documentary like "Mea Maxima Culpa: Silence in the House of God" by Alex Gibney
http://orange-papers.org/forum/node/3165

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Pennywise's picture

Honestly, it's probably not going to matter what I say or what courts I quote. That's OK though. I do admire your tenacity! Anyway, J.R., do you want me to explain this anymore, or would you rather me just stay silent?

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

JR Harris's picture

What would happen if an incorporated "group" got sued and shut down because of the actions of its members? If the group, district, Intergroup, area and region are identified and it is publicized where the incident happened, how many people would start to refuse to take on these positions and liability? If a group go sued, chances are it would limit the people who would want to do "service work" as a liable and non-paid volunteer for that district and maybe even the Intergroup associated with it. Would "one" group make a difference? I believe it would because it would establish case law in that localized area. It can then spread to other areas.....

Remember it varies by state law the limits to liability. An AA incorporated entity in Alaska, may be very different from that in California, New York, Texas, Florida, Minnesota, Illinois, etc.... Also remember you are quoting case law, which is only a ruling and they can be fought. It is not a "law." An example of this is the case laws stating where AA can not be mandated because it is deemed "religious," It is still done in the states and circuit courts where this was determined. It is only a ruling, if it was a law you could call the police and have them arrested......

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

massive's picture

The Westside Dictrict of AA in Area 5 in Los Angeles could be sued. They have about $20,000 in the bank and liability insurance. I know who was in charge when we tried to get them to address safety.

That would be fun to see them face the BS they put us through.

Massive

to do and what was the result.

Pennywise's picture

No. Case law is law, J.R. The test for whether something is a law is not whether you can have a person arrested. Yes, case law can be overruled, but it's still law.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

JR Harris's picture

An arrest can be overruled also, but you can't call the police and have someone arrested for forcing you into a religious cult YET (in most case unless you can prove kidnapping).... You can call the police and have someone arrested for practicing medicine without a license, receiving donations under false pretenses (examples are the Katrina hurricane and 911 attack on the world trade center), destroying evidence of a crime, impeding police investigations of a crime, etc....

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Pennywise's picture

Like I said, the test for whether something is a law is not whether you can have someone arrested for violating it. Case law is law. It's not even arguable.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

JR Harris's picture

You mean it is kind of like "Spiritual, not Religious" and it depends upon who you ask? What states haven't deemed AA religious by case law? What states have deemed AA religious and they still mandate it? Why the inconsistencies?

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Pennywise's picture

Ultimately is does not matter what state laws say. Under federal constitutional law, mandating to AA is illegal. Analogously, sodomy is still illegal by statute in some states, but the SCOTUS has unequivocally held that those laws are unconstitutional. Constitutional law always trumps statutory law and judge-made common law.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

massive's picture

It was once legal for a white man to own a black man. The Law can be changed Pennywise and it has thank GOD.

Gays were once thrown into Paddywagons in NYC for being in Gay bars in NYC. Are you kidding? The world is not flat .....things change. The landmark cases that go alll the way to The Supreme COurt change things. Documentary's change things.

Super Size Me changed Mc Donald's

Food Inc, Changed how we bought chicken and eggs and what we bought in the grocery store forever.

Gasland made us all aware of Fracking.

One woman in Greenwich Village Stopped the Major Degan from being built down the middle of it and ruining it.

If we as a community can not believe in a cause in a dream to change things for the better then we are no better then the idiots siting in the cult meetings of AA.

And Pennywise...we are not that stupid nor are we brainwashed anymore.

SO why not give up the naysayer bullshit that you spew on and on like you are some specialist, elitist know it all about legal matters.

Massive

Pennywise's picture

As you wish.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Pennywise's picture

"If a group go sued, chances are it would limit the people who would want to do "service work" as a liable and non-paid volunteer for that district and maybe even the Intergroup associated with it."

You might not realize it, but this very statement, which is probably true, works against you. In fact, it would probably be the AA group you are suing that would raise this point (or some variation of it).

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

JR Harris's picture

Well depending upon which AA member you ask, it would be the District, Intergroup, Area or Region that would raise this point, but their 'bible" says everything is "autonomous" to the other entities. If any of these entities tried to raise this question along the chain of liability, they are no longer "autonomous" entities and going against Traditions and it would raise their level of liability that they "govern" the group below it because they are now a "stakeholder" in that corporation.......

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Pennywise's picture

From a Texas Supreme Court case you'll disagree with, but still:

Golden Spread Council, Inc. # 562 of the Boy Scouts of Am. v. Akins, 926 S.W.2d 287, 290 (Tex.1996)

Akins also contends, and the court of appeals agreed, that BSA can still be held vicariously liable for any negligence by GSC under a respondeat superior theory. 888 S.W.2d at 44. However, the evidence in this case shows that GSC is a separate corporate entity from BSA and that BSA has no right to control GSC's activities. To carry out its programs in certain geographical areas, BSA charters local councils, like GSC, to have jurisdiction over a set area. GSC is one of about 400 of these local councils. Each local council is a separate non-profit corporation with its own articles of incorporation, bylaws, and board of directors. Thus, as a practical matter, BSA has no direct control over GSC's day-to-day activities.

This evidence demonstrates that GSC is not BSA's servant because the right to control remains the "supreme test" for whether the master-servant relationship exists. Newspapers, Inc. v. Love, 380 S.W.2d 582, 590 (Tex.1964); see also Anderson v. Boy Scouts of Am., Inc., 226 Ill.App.3d 440, 168 Ill.Dec. 492, 494-95, 589 N.E.2d 892, 894-95 (1992) (concluding that no agency relationship existed between BSA and scoutmaster who ran over infant while making delivery for troop because no direct control over his activities was shown). Thus, the court of appeals erred in holding that BSA could be found liable for the acts of GSC. We therefore reverse the judgment of the court of appeals and render judgment for BSA.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

JR Harris's picture

Well the Texas Supreme Court has a ruling on the matter, BUT the Boy Scouts, like Alcoholics Anonymous is global are all states and countries going to follow this ruling? How about the different laws of Australia, Canada, England, Ireland, New Zealand and Scotland which all have chapters of the Boy Scouts and have all had their own lawsuits? You see, you have to think globally,not just US, state and court based entities.

Here is the readers digest version of the Boy Scout lawsuits "globally," and now we are getting into international law. The same thing can be done to Alcoholics Anonymous.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scouting_sex_abuse_cases

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Pennywise's picture

I won't comment on international law. I was commenting only on your argument about control and autonomy. Control is not established merely by virtue of some loose hierarchy where different entities share a similar stake in an outcome. That was my point.

Anyway, I'll try to help you out here instead of being a naysayer. Now forget AAWS. You ain't getting them. But let's look toward the low-hanging fruit, like you say. Are there any instances you can find where a central office specifically directs a caller to a sponsor who the central office has good reason to know is a predator? Vague knowledge that there are some criminal elements in the group won't do. Basically I'm looking for something like this:

1) a young woman calls the local AA hotline;

2) the person answering the phone knows that "Jerry" is a sex offender who preys on young women;

3) the person answering the phone then directs the caller to "Jerry";

4) "Jerry" victimizes the caller.

Can you find something like this? If anyone can, it's you.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

JR Harris's picture

Lawsuits are the only one way to find this info just like the Boy Scouts of America. The BSA lawsuit started in 1987 it wasn't finished until 2012 which resulted in a $20 million dollar award.... It went on for 25 years. see-

Timeline: How BSA Files Went from Confidential to Public
http://orange-papers.org/forum/node/3167#comment-71971

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

massive's picture

Yes forget AAWS... Its The General Service Board of Alcoholics Anonymous, INC. That's the non profit part of AA responsible and the one with the millions. Read your AA concepts in your trusty Service Manual!

Massive

JR Harris's picture

For full coverage and 2000 case files of the Boy Scouts lawsuit see -

Boy Scouts of America forced to release 2000 Abuse cases they had files on June 14th, 2012 because of a lawsuit
http://orange-papers.org/forum/node/3167

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Orange's picture

You bring up some very interesting questions.

The first extreme example that occurred to me was those people who went and joined the German Nazi Party in the 1930s. They were not paid employees of the Party -- in fact, they usually had to pay dues. (Toss a few Reichsmarks into the hat.) Were the members not responsible for what the Party did? (The Allies thought diferently after the war.) Was the Party not responsible for what the individual members did? Like Krystallnacht, and book burnings, and attacks on Jews. Now the Party certainly provided some general guidance and a guiding philosophy. And they had their "Big Book" by Adolf. But the Party could argue that it did not order specific acts of violence against Jews or others, so it wasn't responsible. (Of course that was often a lie, as the Allies exposed at the Nuremberg War Crimes Trials.)

Then, in more general terms, it would seem that anyone who joins a lynch mob could argue that he isn't responsible -- he was just an unpaid volunteer.

As a matter of fact, there is a great deal of similarity between an Alcoholics Anonymous group and a lynch mob. There is no definite membership -- a person is a member of the mob when he says he is a member. The mob leadership does not pay the members. There is no contract or official statement of duties, although there is a general idea of what is expected of the members. The leaders of the group are merely those who are the most eloquent speakers or the most convincing in shouting slogans and battle cries.

So, since it's all so informal and unorganized, is nobody responsible for what happens?

Pennywise's picture

Orange, I post this only because it is a rare treat when you chime in. Anyway, here is what the United States Supreme Court had to say in NAACP v. Claiborne Hardware Co., 458 U. S. 886, 918-20 (1982) [emphasis mine]:

The First Amendment similarly restricts the ability of the State to impose liability on an individual solely because of his 919*919 association with another. In Scales v. United States, 367 U. S. 203, 229, the Court noted that a "blanket prohibition of association with a group having both legal and illegal aims" would present "a real danger that legitimate political expression or association would be impaired." The Court suggested that to punish association with such a group, there must be "clear proof that a defendant `specifically intend[s] to accomplish [the aims of the organization] by resort to violence.'" Ibid. (quoting Noto v. United States, 367 U. S. 290, 299).[53] Moreover, in Noto v. United States the Court emphasized that this intent must be judged "according to the strictest law,"[54] for "otherwise there is a danger that one in sympathy with the legitimate aims of such an organization, but not specifically intending to accomplish them by resort to violence, might be punished for his adherence to lawful and constitutionally protected purposes, because of other and unprotected purposes which he does not necessarily share." Id., at 299-300.

In Healy v. James, 408 U. S. 169, the Court applied these principles in a noncriminal context. In that case the Court held that a student group could not be denied recognition at a state-supported college merely because of its affiliation with a national organization associated with disruptive and violent campus activity. It noted that "the Court has consistently disapproved governmental action imposing criminal sanctions or denying rights and privileges solely because of a citizen's association with an unpopular organization." Id., at 185-186. The Court stated that "it has been established that `guilt by association alone, without [establishing] that an individual's association poses the threat feared by the Goverument,' is an impermissible basis upon which to deny First Amendment rights." Id., at 186 (quoting United States v. Robel, 389 U. S. 258, 265). "The government has the burden 920*920 of establishing a knowing affiliation with an organization possessing unlawful aims and goals, and a specific intent to further those illegal aims." 408 U. S., at 186 (footnote omitted).[55]

The principles announced in Scales, Noto, and Healy are relevant to this case. Civil liability may not be imposed merely because an individual belonged to a group, some members of which committed acts of violence. For liability to be imposed by reason of association alone, it is necessary to establish that the group itself possessed unlawful goals and that the individual held a specific intent to further those illegal aims.[56] "In this sensitive field, the State may not employ `means that broadly stifle fundamental personal liberties when the end can be more narrowly achieved.' Shelton v. Tucker, 364 U. S. 479, 488 (1960)." Carroll v. Princess Anne, 393 U. S. 175, 183-184.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

JR Harris's picture

You do realize that that is US case law and not International Law? In the Nuremberg trials they used International Law, not US laws to bring people and ORGANIZATIONS to justice...

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Pennywise's picture

As has been established, I don't know what I'm talking about. And I certaintly don't know about international law. I was simply replying to Orange about something the Supreme Court said about American law.

As an aside, the Supreme Court has also said that corporations have First Amendment rights. See Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission, 558 U.S. 310 (2010) ("[t]he Court has recognized that First Amendment protection extends to corporations").

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

JR Harris's picture

I'm not trying to beat you up, but you gave some case law saying that the Boy Scouts of America could not be sued from 30 year old case law, however in 2012 they were fined $20 million. How do you account for that? Was your original case law from 30 years ago overturned, or did they come up with something different? Quoting 30 year old case law does not mean it is still the same today.

Top Craziest Laws Still on the Books
http://www.legalzoom.com/us-law/more-us-law/top-craziest-laws-still

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Pennywise's picture

I never said the BSA could not be sued, nor did the case I cited hold that. The case I cited said that under the facts of that case the BSA was not liable because they had no control in that instance. I cited that case merely to address control; not to show that the BSA could never be liable. Anyway, if I understand it right, and I might not, the BSA had a bunch of files about alleged sex criminals in the organization and then helped place those specific criminals in boy scout troops. I realize I'm probably totally wrong, but it could be argued that keeping files of sex criminals and then actively placing those same people in children's groups is different than printing general literature on AA sponsorship without including a warning about predators. I dunno. What do you think AAWS would argue?

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

JR Harris's picture

And the reasons those "abuse files" were discovered is because of legal action was it not? Did the BSA advertize that they had these files? Did the Catholic Church advertize the had these files? Does Alcoholics Anonymous at the Interchurch advertize they have these files? All three organizations are being accused of covering up the problems are they not?

As a side note, hasve you ever heard of the Wannsee Conference where no "records" were supposed to be kept but they were found later during the Nuremberg trials? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wannsee_conference

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Pennywise's picture

Sure thing, but I somehow doubt a court is going to allow you to go on a general fishing expedition through AAWS's files based on bald speculation that they might have something.

Also, what evidence is there to support the allegation that AAWS is covering something up? As I understand it, and again, I may be wrong, AAWS has declined to issue a warning about predators. But that's not the same as taking steps to actively cover up the controversy. They've simply decided not to print something. Is there any evidence that they have secret files under lock and key like the Scout's had (or something similar)? I'm not talking about absolute proof, mind you, just enough evidence beyond "well, they might."

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

JR Harris's picture

The Boy Scouts and Catholic Church lawsuits took 30 years to find out the existence of these "abuse files" and a "fishing expedition" (in your words revealed them). Are you denying this? Do all three organizations have a similar structure? What about the unpaid deacons in the Catholic Church? What about the unpaid "scout masters" in the Bot Scouts? Are they not the same as the unpaid members of Alcoholics Anonymous that you speak of?

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Pennywise's picture

I'm sure they are all the same. I withdraw my objections.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Pennywise's picture

But look, man. I've said too much already. I don't know what I'm talking about, and it's pointless for me to keep rambling on in ignorance. Sometimes I get carried away, which I shouldn't. I apologize, and I mean that unsarcastically.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

JR Harris's picture

Actually this is what is going to happen in a court of law isn't it? One side will make an argument and the other will counter the argument. I see no harm no foul, I am just bringing documented existence of other outcomes. When case law (or any law) is used in a court of law, is it not customary to refute it as not relevant to the question at hand? Isn't that the point of going to trial?

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Pennywise's picture

I agree. But this isn't court, and I get the impression that my input is not wanted. Even when I'm actually trying to help. But look, I've decided to become a Catholic priest tonight....wait for it....5..4...3...2...1....tada!....I have now declared myself to be a Catholic priest as of 22:37 on February 5th. From this date forward people can now sue the Church if I commit crimes against them. Someone better alert the Vatican, because they've never heard of me. Should I double-down and make myself Scoutmaster too?

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

JR Harris's picture

Actually I would say that unless you are registered with those entities you may not be, even if they "claim" no liability because of a disclaimer. It all comes down to de jure and de facto interpretations. At least that is what I was taught at business school. You see if a car manufacturer, medical device manufacturer or any other entity lists you as a reputable source (of course then denying that they are doing it) they can still be held liable. Look at all of the lawsuits for "medical" devices that have failed after being implemented.

Search for "lawsuits against medical device manufacturers" without the quotes and you will see what I mean....

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Pennywise's picture

"Actually I would say that unless you are registered with those entities you may not be, even if they "claim" no liability because of a disclaimer."

I guess that's one difference between Scoutmasters/priests and AA sponsors, i.e., the whole thing about needing specific approval from the organization. Also, if I desire to be a priest or Scoutmaster, can I unilaterally do that simply by registering with the organizations, or would it take something more? And again, if it wanted to, could AAWS prevent a person from sponsoring another in the way that the Scouts and the Church can exclude people from their ranks?

"see if a car manufacturer, medical device manufacturer or any other entity lists you as a reputable source (of course then denying that they are doing it) they can still be held liable.'

AAWS does not publish any lists of approved sponsors, nor does AAWS vouch for the reputation of any particular sponsor.

Search for "lawsuits against medical device manufacturers" without the quotes and you will see what I mean....

Why don't you do that? I've cited quite a bit in this discussion. If you think there is some case out there to advance your point, just cite it for us and explain why it is on point.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

JR Harris's picture

There are no aggregate one page answers to that question. It requires looking at the entire picture and who is liable. Here are a few cases the first one starting with the actual doctors who are liable for using unsafe procedures then it goes to the MANUFACTURES of devices that when first used were thought to be safe, that turned out not to be. AA is a MANUFACTURER of the "Big Book" that at first was though to be a breakthrough....

Class-action lawsuits medicine's newest legal headache
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC81425/

DePuy, Biomet, Wright Medical Technology & Others, Metal on Metal Hip Implant Class Action Lawsuit Investigation
http://www.topclassactions.com/lawsuit-settlements/investigations/2020-d...

Transvaginal Mesh Lawsuit
http://www.litigationandtrial.com/vaginal-mesh-implant-erosion-recall/

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Pennywise's picture

AA is a MANUFACTURER of the "Big Book"

You are never in a million years going to win on that theory unless someone gets one hell of a paper-cut.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Pennywise's picture

Bonus question: Do AA sponsors, as AA sponsors, have any special rights or privileges that are not possessed by the general public?

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

JR Harris's picture

Did the Catholic Church or the Boy Scouts leaders have any "special rights or privileges that are not possessed by the general public?" Do Senate sessions start with prayers to the Boy Scouts or the Catholic Church? Have they ever started with prayers to the KKK or the Aryan Nation?

When the Minnesota Senate started with a prayer to Alcoholics Anonymous on Monday February 4, 2013
http://orange-papers.org/forum/node/3170

As a side note, the first AA "groups" started in San Quentin Prison in 1942 and the first Aryan Nation "groups" started in San Quentin Prison in 1965...

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Pennywise's picture

Did the Catholic Church or the Boy Scouts leaders have any "special rights or privileges that are not possessed by the general public?

Yes. Not just any person off the street can walk in and preach in a Catholic Church or lead a Boy Scout troop. You admitted this earlier by acknowledging that my self-declaration last night of making myself a Catholic priest and scoutmaster was ineffective. So if I barge into a church and start preaching, the can have me arrested for trespassing. Conversely, what could AAWS do to stop me from sponsoring a guy?

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

JR Harris's picture

You do realize that you just made my point? It is not the Catholic Church or the main BSA headquarters that will have you arrested for trespassing. It will be the Church or Boy Scout troop that will do it, following direction from the main offices in their "literature." Do you really think that if you went into a church and started preaching that the Vatican will show up to stop you? Do you really think that the Boy Scouts main headquarters will show up to stop you? No, in both cases it will be the policies and procedures of the sub-groups dictated by the "home office" that will stop you. That is where the liability lies.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Pennywise's picture

Fine. What can my local AA group do to stop me from sponsoring a guy? I guess they could kick me out of the facility. Do they have any duty to do that, especially when I am not being disruptive while on their property? Remember, unlike priests and Boy Scout leaders, the group never made any sort of representations about my safety to begin with.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

JR Harris's picture

In the US it depends upon the State, in Texas if you cover something up (as in a crime) you can be considered for legal liability..

Remember that an accomplice, e. g., in Texas, under Section 7.02(a)(2) TPC, the person who with intent to promote or assist commission of an offense, solicits, encourages, directs, aids, or attempts to aid another person to commit the offense, is different from a conspirator, e.g., the person who conspires to commit an offense by agreeing with another persons that they or one of them will commit the offense. The exact definition of an accomplice may differ according to the jurisdiction. For example, the MPC defines an accomplice of another person in commission of an offense in Section 2.06 (3) as one who with the purpose of promoting or facilitating the commission of an offense (i) solicits such other person to commit it, (ii) aid or agrees to aid or attempts to aid such other person in planning or committing it; or (iii) having a legal duty to prevent the commission of the offense, fails to make proper effort to do so. UCL tells us an accomplice is often defined as the person who intentionally aids the primary party to commit the offense, pointing out that there are typically two factors at work, i.e., the intent to assist the primary actor and the intent that the primary actor commit the offense. Professors LaFave and Scott described accomplice liability thusly: "It may generally be said that one is liable as an accomplice to the crime of another if he (a) gave assistance or encouragement or failed to perform a legal duty to prevent it (b) with the intent thereby to promote or facilitate commission of the crime." LaFave & Scott, Criminal Law, West ( 2nd ed. 1986).
Source: http://www.crimesanddefenses.com/SilverBulletsIII.html#anchor_34

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Pennywise's picture

Yep. No doubt. Do steppers in meetings help people commit crimes? If so, I totally agree they can be found liable. But I think your definition of what it means to assist someone in committing a crime is different than the law's.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Pennywise's picture

But look, if you could show, for example, that Brada's AA group conspired together to murder her, you bet there is liability. I don't see how that helps you get AAWS, though. Or even the intergroup or anyone else not involved in the criminal endeavor.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

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