Dr. Stanton Peele Author and Non12 step Expert on Blog Talk Radio SAFE RECOVERY Tuesday 4pmPST January 15, 2015

JR Harris's picture
Submitted by JR Harris on Tue, 01/15/2013 - 15:00

Dr. Stanton Peele Author and Non12 step Expert will be live on Blog Talk Radio SAFE RECOVERY Tuesday 4pmPST January 15, 2015. If you miss the show replays are usually available shortly after. If you wish to call in, the number is 818-475-9211

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/saferecovery/2013/01/16/dr-stanton-peele

Stanton began working on "Love and Addiction" (which was published in 1975) in 1970. In these forty years he has predicted a remarkable number of addiction trends. By now it is clear that the way in which Stanton has reframed addiction for the past four decades – sometimes facing extreme opposition – has been prescient. Addiction is not a consequence of taking drugs and drinking. Rather, it arises from the way in which these and other compelling activities fit into people’s lives and meanings.

Comments

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Tue, 01/15/2013 - 18:15

Great show. I caught the tail end. Massive is a very good radio host indeed.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

dave

Tue, 01/15/2013 - 18:42

A Call for Unity

NOTE: Those with different approaches to recovery are so busy jousting with each other, they sometimes forget they are actually fighting side-by-side to slay the same dragon. In the spirit of unity, we were asked to publish the following statement from a group of professionals associated with alcoholism and addiction treatment and study.

Statement on Audrey Kishline
As scholars and long-time observers or participants in the alcohol problems field, we express our sincere sorrow at the loss of life in the tragic automobile crash in which Audrey Kishline was involved.

Ms. Kishline was the founder of a mutual-help group, Moderation Management, which differed from other groups in supporting participants in choosing and pursuing either of two goals, moderate drinking or abstinence. In January 2000, months before the tragic crash, Ms. Kishline announced that she was changing her personal goal to abstinence, leaving Moderation Management, and planning to attend other mutual-help groups, explicitly mentioning, among others, Alcoholics Anonymous.

That Ms. Kishline was intoxicated at the time of the crash has been claimed to indicate the failure of the approach of one or another of the mutual-help groups Ms. Kishline has attended.

Such claims are not in accord with everyday experience in the field, in which relapse is common, whichever approach the drinker adopts. Recovery from serious alcohol problems is a difficult goal, and there are different paths to it.

We believe that the approach represented by Alcoholics Anonymous and that represented by Moderation Management are both needed.

Signed by

Jim Balmer
Charles Bishop
Jan Blomqvist, Ph.D.
Archie Brodsky
Bruce Carruth, Ph.D.
Don Curto
Alexander F. DeLuca, M.D., FASAM
Patt Denning, Ph.D.
Rich Dubiel, Ph.D.
J. Michael Faragher, Psy.D., CACIII
John Gessner, M.A., L.P.
A. Thomas Horvath, Ph.D., FAClinP
Keith Humphreys, Ph.D.
Lee Ann Kaskutas, DrPH
Marc. F. Kern, Ph.D.
Ana Kosok, M.S., M.Ed.
Ernest Kurtz, Ph.D.
Linda Farris Kurtz, D.P.A., A.C.S.W.
Klaus Mäkelä, Ph.D.
G. Alan Marlatt, Ph.D.
Don McIntire
Oliver Morgan, Ph,.D., NCC
Nancy Olson
George A. Parks, Ph.D.
Stanton Peele, Ph.D., Esq.
Elizaberh Robinson, Ph.D.
Robin Room, Ph.D.
Fred Rotgers, Psy.D.
Edith Springer, A.C.S.W.
Andrew Tatarsky, Ph.D.
Al Turner B.A , CADC
J. E. Tutton, M.D., F.A.C.E.P.
Joseph R. Volpicelli, M.D., Ph.D.
Bill White, M.A.

dave

Tue, 01/15/2013 - 18:43

http://alcoholism.about.com/library/weekly/aa000708a.htm

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Tue, 01/15/2013 - 18:59

How do you explain that the Audrey Kishline tragedy is often used by the true believer minions of Alcoholics Anonymous to promote AA as being the only way? It was only a few days ago that this tragedy was being used on this very forum in that way. The actual facts were not looked into in a "contempt prior to investigation" stance that moderation management was to blame for these deaths. I have heard this stance from many minions who repeat this story and they usually even make the mistake of blaming Rational Recovery. How do you propose that false accusations like this be stopped in the rooms of Alcoholics Anonymous? They are not even following their own rules....

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

dave

Tue, 01/15/2013 - 19:23

refering to to the more vocifours members that I have heard at some meetings. The book says something like, if you can do the right about face and control your drinking, then our hats are off to you. The spirit of that statement is aa's true party line in my opinion. The fellowship needs to be reminded of this more often that not. I never really had an opinion on Kishline. I'm sure some people moderate just fine. What hurt Moderation Management in my eyes was that Kishline was the figurehead and she fell badly, therfore hurting the program. I thought the program was still around today. I would not be surprised if it worked fine for many people and not Kishilne.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Tue, 01/15/2013 - 19:31

You do realize that AA sends a letter out to all of the major media outlets asking for AA members not to be identified so when they relapse and do the same type of things, the good name of Alcoholics Anonymous that only helps with about 2.5% of the people is not held responsible. I find that very deceptive and the sign of a true cult. I also do not find any other modality doing that. How do you explain that Alcoholics Anonymous finds it necessary to do that?

Anonymity Letter to Media

General Service Office of Alcoholics Anonymous

April 2012

ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS
A NOTE OF THANKS - A REQUEST FOR CONTINUED COOPERATION

From time to time we write our public media friends to thank them for helping us observe our long-standing tradition of anonymity for members of Alcoholics Anonymous.

First, let us express our deep gratitude to you. From the beginning of A.A. in 1935, its members have recognized that word-of-mouth is not sufficient by itself to carry the program's message of hope and recovery to the many people still suffering from alcoholism. The public media has been a vital part of this effort, and today we estimate that there are more than 2 million successfully recovering members of Alcoholics Anonymous in more than 180 countries.

Second, we respectfully request that you continue to cooperate with us in maintaining the anonymity of A.A. members. The principle of anonymity is a basic tenet of our fellowship. Those who are reluctant to seek our help may overcome their fear if they are confident that their anonymity will be respected. In addition, and perhaps less understood, our tradition of anonymity acts as a restraint on A.A. members, reminding us that we are a program of principles, not personalities, and that no individual A.A. member may presume to act as a spokesman or leader of our fellowship. If an A.A member is identified in the media, we ask that you please use first names only (e.g., Bob S. or Alice F.) and that you not use photographs or electronic images in which members’ faces may be recognized.

Again, we thank you for your continued cooperation. Those who wish to know more about our fellowship are welcome to visit the “For the Media” section of AA.org. Our fellowship does not comment on matters of public controversy, but we are happy to provide information about A.A. to anyone who seeks it.

If you are a professional and wish to e-mail us your postal address so that we may mail you additional information on A.A., please Click Here.

Sincerely,

Public Information Committee
of Alcoholics Anonymous
For Media, contact: Publicinfo@aa.org

Source: http://www.aa.org/subpage.cfm?page=39

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Tue, 01/15/2013 - 21:27

I think anonymity is in general a good idea. Most people wouldn't want to be involved in a program if they thought their identity as an alcoholic would be known. However, the problem with it in AA is that it's elevated to a "spiritual principle" so people won't report crimes--even murder or child molestation. In AA the anonymity is in place to protect the program from embarrassment, and not to protect the individuals. It's just another example of why basing a program of recovery on pseudo-spirituality is a really, really bad idea.

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

dave

Tue, 01/15/2013 - 23:20

line.

massive's picture

massive

Tue, 01/15/2013 - 22:17

This letter is against the 1 st amendment. This has to be stopped.

Massive

dave

Tue, 01/15/2013 - 19:44

of it's circulation. Kishline is a perfect example of why aa in anonymous. If she was'nt in the spotlight so much prior to her accident, Moderation Management might be more popular today. I really know very little of Moderation Management. I believe the spirit on anonymity serves to protect aa. Is that cultish? I don't know.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Tue, 01/15/2013 - 19:51

Hadn't she gone back to AA at the time of the crash?

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Tue, 01/15/2013 - 19:55

So you believe that incidents like this shouldn't be told to protect the program of Alcoholics Anonymous? You do realize that you only came up with ONE incident, while sites like the Orange-Papers.org, leavingaa.com, nadaytona.org, stop13stepinaa.wordpress.com have hundreds of them highlighting the problems with the AA?

ONE incident against one modality verses the HUNDREDS identified in AA does not make a very good argument.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

dave

Tue, 01/15/2013 - 20:16

With Kishline I thought her program was relatively new and that she was the primary person. It could have been a timing thing.

massive's picture

massive

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 20:08

dave, the spirit of anonymity ...really ...are you kidding me....Lying about what you see, who get sexually harassed, raped and ripped off is not a spiritual occurrence. So I guess if a crime occurs. Call the LAW, and if you get harassed, ripped off , sue the bugga in civil court.

Then maybe some of these bad asses will get out of AA and jump in a lake. They can go to the Sons of Anarchy and play pretend how tough they are. BFD.

Massive

dave

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 20:44

refering to one's sobriety and involvement in aa. I think legally anything brought up during a meeting is fair game to report to authorities. I think the authorities should be used more often. I also think when a member does illegal things it ok and appropiate to tell others in the program. It might be different if I were the person's sponsor, luckily I have never had to deal with that.

dave

Tue, 01/15/2013 - 19:59

there were some links on this forum. I looked into it some and I think that she still drinks. The article I read said she worked at a dry cleaner and walks to work.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Tue, 01/15/2013 - 20:18

So you blame Moderation Management for it? How about the murder of Danita Brown in AA General Service Area 11in Lewiston, Maine? These are like incidents. Neither event happened at an AA meeting or Moderation Management meeting. Audrey Kishline was not coming from a Moderation Management meeting when these deaths happened. Donita Brown was killed by Bob Ryder who was leaving from the Twelve Hour Alano club with his sponsor Floyd Nadeau to look for chicks and score some cocaine. They picked up Donita and Bob Ryder eventually ended up killing her and burying her in his basement and even putting baking soda over the body to cover up the smell of the rotting flesh. His Sponsor knew of this for two and a half weeks before he went to the police to protect the perceived "Anonymity Clause" of Alcoholics Anonymous. I have heard all of the excuses and denial possible about this case from AA members...

Using your analogy, the Audrey Kishline and the Bob Ryder incident are the same and it should be blamed on the both Alcoholics Anonymous and Moderation Management. Both happened around the same time. Of course AA had more of a part in this death....

I covered it heavily on the following blogs-

AA Sponsor Protects Sponsee Who Confessed To Murder
http://stinkin-thinkin.com/2011/07/15/aa-sponsor-protects-sponsee-who-co...

AA Member Bob Ryder expected to plead guilty to manslaughter June 5, 2012
http://orange-papers.org/forum/node/1536

Lewiston Sun Journal Explores AA Anonymity
http://stinkin-thinkin.com/2011/07/23/lewiston-sun-journal-explores-aa-a...

Bob Ryder confesses murder to AA Sponsor Floyd Nadeau
http://orange-papers.org/forum/node/202

Bob Ryder pleads guilty to murder, A presentence investigation will be conducted with more information when sentenced later
http://orange-papers.org/forum/node/1623

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

dave

Tue, 01/15/2013 - 20:27

I think Kishline had a drinking problem that she had not solved yet in my opinion. She may still like drinking, I dont know. She may not see drinking as a problem for herself, again I dont know. Legally she is at fault. She needs to learn how to not drink and drive.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Tue, 01/15/2013 - 20:37

Simple question. Why was Kishline brought up a few days ago as a reason why AA works and other modalities don't? It is OK, it is called circular logic that AA promotes. When the circular logic and back peddling of AA is exposed for the first time to people who are brainwashed this often happens. In AA speak it is called doing a rigorous inventory and often causes anger because of the EGO deflation that it causes when slogans and falsehoods of AA are exposed. In AA it often causes suicide and relapse because all logical discussions turn into a game of word play, slogans and illogical reasoning.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Tue, 01/15/2013 - 21:15

Dave, what we're very used to seeing is steppers blaming MM, and conveniently leaving out the fact that Kishline was in AA at the time of the accident, that's all. It's been done over and over and over and it's misinformation. You're correct, she does still drink, apparently, and it's a shame. She made a decision to drink and drive and the accident was her fault. However, I think she's done drinking and driving. At least I really hope so, but that's the impression I get.

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

dave

Tue, 01/15/2013 - 21:31

I really have not seen any pro aa people here except possibly for that frybread person. I could see what your saying happening here. My friend went to his second smart meeting today and a member pissed him off, when the class ended the facilitor said see you at the next meeting. This seemed to calm my friend down.

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Tue, 01/15/2013 - 22:09

I'm sorry to hear your friend had a bad experience. Hopefully they will be better in the future. As for not seeing any pro AA people here, it's because they went to any lengths to defend AA and really stepped over the lines way too much, way too many times. However, we have been at this pursuit of exposing AA long before this forum even existed and have had many of these same discussions before, or have read the type of misinformation typical on stepper sites.

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

dave

Tue, 01/15/2013 - 21:00

I brought up SMART revovery and wanted to hear a little about it before I refered my friend to it. He thought SMART revovery was bad because he thought it's founder killed someone while drunk driving, so I stated his concerns here even though I thought he may be incorrect. People on this forum were very helpful in pointing out that the founder of SMART was not a drunk driver and pointed out that it was Kishline of Moderation Management. To me the whole coversation was about getting some alternative to aa for my friend and some clarification. I also read more of the SMART website and learned some things.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Tue, 01/15/2013 - 21:26

Another simple question Dave. Why did you post that about Kishline with no explanation of why? You see Dave, that is part of the sly suggestion mentality that AA teaches the people that they brainwash. It is called assigning some kind of guilt by a statement and omitting why it is relevant, leaving the reader scratching their head trying to decide what they are talking about. It causes confusion that AA thrives on when they are indoctrinating prospects. Posting without a comment leads to many different possible ideas as too why and leaves the AA aficionado trained in circular logic to change its meaning to anything they want it to be. It is called plausible deniability. I wrote about it here-

AA Deception and Plausible Deniability
By JR Harris on July 18, 2011
http://stinkin-thinkin.com/2011/07/18/aa-deception-and-plausible-deniabi...

I'm just being rigorously honest and I have been at this for a long time.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Tue, 01/15/2013 - 22:02

I doubt that was Dave's intention to make any sly suggestions, JR. He was just repeating what someone else told him. As you know, in AA they go by word of mouth and misinformation is rampant. I understood what he was talking about and gave him the information he was seeking. I don't think Dave is your average stepper. He seems to be a thinking man.

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

massive's picture

massive

Tue, 01/15/2013 - 22:23

Dave- I think you mean well here. There are many other options for your friend. If he doesn't like Smart ...I have brought friends there as well and they didnt like it ...some want moderation. There are so many books and resources. Some people would rather blog, read and chat . LifeRIng has chatting.

I know you are a smart guy and that by now you know this is not a Pro AA site. I flipped. SO can you. The truth will set you free :)

Massive

dave

Tue, 01/15/2013 - 23:16

Thanks for the words of wisdom. I have brought up the on line chatting, but he said he needs to avoid the computer. He said he was going to another aa meeting and I asked him why? He then told me he has never had a counselor or therapist recomend aa to him over the last 10 years. I usually try to empower him and tell him that he can make his own desisions.

dave

Tue, 01/15/2013 - 21:33

A Call for Unity

NOTE: Those with different approaches to recovery are so busy jousting with each other, they sometimes forget they are actually fighting side-by-side to slay the same dragon. In the spirit of unity, we were asked to publish the following statement from a group of professionals associated with alcoholism and addiction treatment and study.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Tue, 01/15/2013 - 21:48

Why did you pick the untimely deaths caused by a member and founder of a different modality? What was the purpose and what were you thinking of when you posted it? Why that incident after discussing it just a few days before? You have to be rigorously honest if you want to get better.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

dave

Tue, 01/15/2013 - 22:53

I looked up Stanton Peele on wikipedia. That article was there as a reference. Dr. Stanton Peele signed the article I posted. I thought it was interesting. I just read a few articles by Stanton Peele on Huffington post. He makes some good points. I don't think Moderation is a bad thing nor do I think aa is bad for everyone. Both organizations have some black marks from their founders and both organizations have their merits. This may be a bad comparison since aa is such a large machine and is religious in nature, but I think it interesting to think about. Her is a bickering is pointless you tube video. I am posting it for humor reasons only. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImzD8Th4vOU

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 04:45

Well Dave, I don't judge the United States Marine Corps based on the men in the brig, and I don't judge AA by the people who fail to succeed in the program. Rather, I judge AA by looking at the fractured logic espoused by its purported successes.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 07:27

AA is more like the 1967 film "The Dirty Dozen" they both get their recruits from felons in jails and prisons...... and train them.....

Major Reisman is assigned an unusual and top-secret pre-invasion mission: take a small unit of soldiers convicted of felonies and turn them into a commando squad to be sent on a special mission, an airborne infiltration and assault on a chateau near Rennes in Brittany. The chateau will be hosting a meeting of dozens of high-ranking German officers, the elimination of which will presumably hamper the German military's ability to respond to D-Day. Those felons who survive the mission will have their sentences commuted. It quickly becomes clear that both Reisman and his superiors regard the operation as a near-suicide mission and expect that few, if any of the felons will return.

Reisman is assigned twelve convicts, all either serving lengthy sentences or destined to be executed. Notable members include slow-witted Vernon Pinkley (Donald Sutherland); Robert Jefferson (Jim Brown), an African American soldier convicted of killing a man in a racial brawl; Samson Posey (Clint Walker), a gentle giant who becomes enraged when pushed; Joseph Wladislaw (Charles Bronson) a taciturn coal miner recruited for his ability to speak German, convicted of shooting his squad's medic; A.J. Maggott (Telly Savalas), a misogynist and religious fanatic; and Victor Franko (John Cassavetes), a former member of the Chicago organized-crime Syndicate who has extreme problems with authority. Under the supervision of Reisman and military police Sergeant Bowren (Richard Jaeckel), the group begin training. After being forced to construct their own living quarters, the twelve individuals are trained in combat by Reisman and gradually learn how to operate as a group. For parachute training they are sent to the base operated by Colonel Breed. Under strict orders to keep their mission secret, Reisman's men run afoul of Breed and his troops, especially after Pinkley poses as a general and inspects Breed's troops. Angered at the usurpation of his authority, Breed attempts to discover Reisman's mission and then attempts to get the program shut down. Major Armbruster suggests a test of whether Reisman's men are ready: during practice maneuvers which Breed will be taking part in, the "Dirty Dozen" will attempt to capture the Colonel's headquarters. During the maneuvers, the men use various unorthodox tactics, including theft, impersonation, and rule-breaking, to infiltrate Breed's headquarters and hold him and his men at gunpoint. This proves to the General that Reisman's men are ready.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dirty_Dozen#Plot

Sorry, I just couldn't help making the correlation.....

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

El Oso's picture

El Oso

Tue, 01/15/2013 - 21:59

The extract posted seems to be at lengths to avoid aportioning blame.

"That Ms. Kishline was intoxicated at the time of the crash has been claimed to indicate the failure of the approach of one or another of the mutual-help groups Ms. Kishline has attended.
Such claims are not in accord with everyday experience in the field, in which relapse is common, whichever approach the drinker adopts. Recovery from serious alcohol problems is a difficult goal, and there are different paths to it.
We believe that the approach represented by Alcoholics Anonymous and that represented by Moderation Management are both needed."

And I suggest you look up "circular logic" You are misusing the term.

"And if somebody told you God is on your side. I was told the very same thing So you know somebody lied." [Big Wind - Sonny Terry and Brownie McGhee]

El Oso

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Wed, 01/16/2013 - 06:39

First off, I am not claiming the letter signed by Stanton Peele that you just quoted contains circular logic. That was not circular logic and far from what I am claiming. The circular logic I am talking about is.

1. Claiming these stories should be made public (making a stance on the subject).
2. Then claiming they shouldn't be made public noting AA tries to prevent it (changing your stance on the subject, often called back peddling "do as I say, not as I do" or just plain old "having your cake and eating it too").

The assignment of blame it implied that if Moderation Management tried to cover up the actions of its members like AA, this wouldn't happen.

Readers digest version of circular logic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_logic

Joel Feinberg and Russ Shafer-Landau note that "using the scientific method to judge the scientific method is circular reasoning". Scientists attempt to discover the laws of nature and to predict what will happen in the future, based on those laws. However, per David Hume's problem of induction, science cannot be proven inductively by empirical evidence, and thus science cannot be proven scientifically. An appeal to a principle of the uniformity of nature would be required to deductively necessitate the continued accuracy of predictions based on laws that have only succeeded in generalizing past observations. But as Bertrand Russell observed, "The method of 'postulating' what we want has many advantages; they are the same as the advantages of theft over honest toil".[6]

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.