Does Alcoholics Anonymous Work?
For some heavy drinkers, the answer is a tentative yes
By Hal Arkowitz and Scott O. Lilienfeld
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=does-alcoholics-anonymo...
Alcoholics Anonymous, celebrating its 76th anniversary this year, counts two million members who participate in some 115,000 groups worldwide, about half of them in the U.S. How well does it work? Anthropologist William Madsen, then at the University of California, Santa Barbara, claimed in a 1974 book that it has a “nearly miraculous” success rate, whereas others are far more skeptical. After reviewing the literature, we found that AA may help some people overcome alcoholism, especially if they also get some professional assistance, but the evidence is far from overwhelming, in part because of the nature of the program.
Alcoholics Anonymous got its start at a meeting in 1935 in Akron, Ohio, between a businessman named Bill Wilson and a physician, Bob Smith. “Bill W” and “Dr. Bob,” as they are now known, were alcoholics. Wilson had attained sobriety largely through his affiliation with a Christian movement. Smith stopped drinking after he met Wilson, whose success inspired him. Determined to help other problem drinkers, the men soon published what has become known as “The Big Book,” which spelled out their philosophy, principles and methods, including the now famous 12-step method. Alcoholics Anonymous was the book’s official title and also became the name of the organization that grew from it.
In AA, members meet in groups to help one another achieve and maintain abstinence from alcohol. The meetings, which are free and open to anyone serious about stopping drinking, may include reading from the Big Book, sharing stories, celebrating members’ sobriety, as well as discussing the 12 steps and themes related to problem drinking. Participants are encouraged to “work” the 12-step program, fully integrating each step into their lives before proceeding to the next. AA targets more than problem drinking; members are supposed to correct all defects of character and adopt a new way of life. They are to accomplish these difficult goals without professional help. No therapists, psychologists or physicians can attend AA meetings unless they, too, have drinking problems.
A for Abstinence?
Most studies evaluating the efficacy of AA are not definitive; for the most part, they associate the duration of participation with success in quitting drinking but do not show that the program caused that outcome. Some of the problems stem from the nature of AA—for example, the fact that what occurs during AA meetings can vary considerably. Further, about 40 percent of AA members drop out during the first year (although some may return), raising the possibility that the people who remain may be the ones who are most motivated to improve.
Nevertheless, the results of one well-designed investigation called Project Match, published in 1997, suggest that AA can facilitate the transition to sobriety for many alcoholics. In this study, a group of prominent alcoholism researchers randomly assigned more than 900 problem drinkers to receive one of three treatments over 12 weeks. One was an AA-based treatment called 12-step facilitation therapy that includes contact with a professional who helps patients work the first few of the 12 steps and encourages them to attend AA meetings. The other treatments were cognitive-behavioral therapy, which teaches skills for coping better with situations that commonly trigger relapse, and motivational enhancement therapy, which is designed to boost motivation to cease problem drinking.
The AA-based approach seemed to work and compared favorably with the other therapies. In all three groups, participants were abstinent on roughly 20 percent of days, on average, before treatment began, and the fraction of alcohol-free days rose to about 80 percent a year after treatment ended. What is more, 19 percent of these subjects were teetotalers during the entire 12-month follow-up. Because the study lacked a group of people who received no treatment, however, it does not reveal whether any of the methods are superior to leaving people to try to stop drinking on their own.
Other research suggests that AA is quite a bit better than receiving no help. In 2006 psychologist Rudolf H. Moos of the Department of Veterans Affairs and Stanford University and Bernice S. Moos published results from a 16-year study of problem drinkers who had tried to quit on their own or who had sought help from AA, professional therapists or, in some cases, both. Of those who attended at least 27 weeks of AA meetings during the first year, 67 percent were abstinent at the 16-year follow-up, compared with 34 percent of those who did not participate in AA. Of the subjects who got therapy for the same time period, 56 percent were abstinent versus 39 percent of those who did not see a therapist—an indication that seeing a professional is also beneficial.
These findings might not apply to all problem drinkers or AA programs, however. Because this study was “naturalistic,” that is, an investigation of people who chose their path on their own (rather than as part of the study), the researchers could not control the precise makeup of the meetings or treatments. Furthermore, the abstinence rates reported might apply only to those with less severe alcohol problems, because the scientists chose people who sought help for the first time, excluding others who had done so in the past. Various studies have found that a combination of professional treatment and AA yields better outcomes than either approach alone.
Constructive Combination
Taken as a whole, the data suggest that AA may be helpful, especially in conjunction with professional treatment, for many people who are addicted to alcohol. We do not know, however, whether AA might occasionally be harmful. When a group is highly confrontational, for example, alcoholics may become resistant to change [see “The Advice Trap,” by Hal Arkowitz and Scott O. Lilienfeld; Scientific American Mind, September/October 2010]. Nevertheless, in light of the evidence supporting the program, the wide availability of meetings and the lack of expense, AA is worth considering for many problem drinkers.
This article was originally published with the title Does Alcoholics Anonymous Work?.
ABOUT THE AUTHOR(S)
HAL ARKOWITZ and SCOTT O. LILIENFELD serve on the board of advisers for Scientific American Mind. Arkowitz is a psychology professor at the University of Arizona, and Lilienfeld is a psychology professor at Emory University. The authors thank William R. Miller of the University of New Mexico and Rudolf Moos of Stanford University for their help with this column.
Comments
JR Harris
Thu, 01/10/2013 - 23:53
Permalink
Alcoholics Anonymous is about as viable as the MLM of Herbalife
Alcoholics Anonymous is about as viable as the MLM of Herbalife. Alcoholics Anonymous has the same business structure as the Multi-Level Marketing (MLM) scheme of the Herbalife corporation which is incorporated in the Cayman Islands with its main headquarters in Los Angeles, California. The main difference between Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) and Herbalife is that AA is registered as a non-profit.
In fact wall Street (where the con man Bill Wilson claims he was riding his Harley too for perspective clients) is claiming that Herbalife is like Alcoholics Anonymous. Herbalife has a bigger following than AA and more outlets. Herbalife claims 5000 independent distributors (much like AA Intergroups) which claim to have saved millions by selling and promoting products to save millions from being over weight and obese. There are more Herbalife users worldwide then AA, but it is not mandated by the US court systems or pushed by Hazelden trained therapists to get a lifetime revenue stream using court system and Rehab coercion. Herbalife does not promote, it attracts its clients, just like AA claims, but it does advertise, just like AA. Not being a non-profit and being guided by market forces, Herbalife is in trouble because of the obvious Multi-Level Marketing (MLM) stream it uses.
Alcoholics Anonymous is a MLM scheme just like Alcoholics Anonymous and Wall Street agrees.... of course AA only sells Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc (AAWS) literature and faith healing as its products.
Source: http://www.cnbc.com/id/100371333
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
YuppieMonkey
Fri, 01/11/2013 - 09:29
Permalink
"It works-It Really Does!"
"My Creator, I am now willing that you should have all fo me, good and bad. I pray that you now remove from me every single defect of character which stands in the way of my usefulness to you and my fellows."
We have now completed Step Seven...
P.S.- If it doesn't take the first time, go back to Step Six and pray for more willingness.
"You'll pay to know what you really think". - J.R. Bob Dobbs
JR Harris
Fri, 01/11/2013 - 09:44
Permalink
Actually the most prevalent MLM in AA is AVON distributors
Actually the most prevalent Multi-Level Marketing (MLM) schemes by Alcoholics Anonymous members is AVON distributors with AMWAY coming in second. Tupperware parties have fallen out of favor and not done much, but the newest self made business of candles has shown a resurgence and they tie it into Spirituality and meditation. All of the MLM scheme require personal and direct selling just like AA and the members of Alcoholics Anonymous have been forced to hit bottom using the Jellinek curve to make them hit bottom so they find it hard to get a job and these jobs require no background checks.
In any AA coven you will also find a large amount of telemarketers who lie to old ladies and the feeble minded to purchase something they normally feel bad about later. 12 Step members are masters at being con artists, I mean they talk people into praying a made up god saying it is Spiritual, not Religious and that atheists even do it. i wrote about that here:
Alcoholics Anonymous, telemarketers, high turnover, canned script, rebuttals and 12 Step Hotlines
Submitted by JR Harris on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 14:08
http://orange-papers.org/forum/node/1023
The other jobs that AA members gravitate to are disposing of the spoil of peoples lives that they force their victims to sell at rock bottom prices to pay for rehab.
Alcoholics Anonymous used car salesmen and garage mechanics
Submitted by JR Harris on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 03:42
http://orange-papers.org/forum/node/1027
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
JR Harris
Fri, 01/11/2013 - 10:06
Permalink
"For some heavy drinkers, the answer is a tentative yes"
The disclaimer at the beginning of the article "For some heavy drinkers, the answer is a tentative yes" speaks loads for the deceptive practices and mindset of the cult of Alcoholics Anonymous (AA). The word "some" is not quantified and it could be anywhere from .001% to 99.999%, meaning the article does not tell you. The term "heavy drinker" does not identify the person as being Alcohol Dependent (DSM-V-TR 303.90 Dependence) or Alcohol Abuse (DSM-V-TR 305.00 Abuse) which is also deceptive and a blanket disclaimer meaning no substance in the article identifies the target population correctly. The word "tentative" means that research still needs to be made, but given that the target population is not correctly identified, it is impossible. It usually means that the writer of the article is just looking for more money for research.
One of the problems with many surveys of people with Alcohol overuse problems is that they normally take subjects from a pool of people in jails and prisons or people that have used the AA get out of jail card so the sample population is skewed. Of course that is the largest percentage of people in the cult of Alcoholics Anonymous so anytime that sample population is used, it will always be skewed.
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
causeandeffect
Fri, 01/11/2013 - 12:24
Permalink
"Anthropologist William
"Anthropologist William Madsen, then at the University of California, Santa Barbara, claimed in a 1974 book that it has a “nearly miraculous” success rate." I don't know where this anthropologist got this crazy idea. Perhaps he just read the big book and believed wilson's lies about the success rate, or he was a stepper himself. Most likely the latter.
"members are supposed to correct all defects of character..." Billshit! Gawd is supposed to do that for them. There's no practical advice in dealing with "defects of character."
"Further, about 40 percent of AA members drop out during the first year " No, it's actually 95% that leave the first year. That's proven by both the triennial surveys as well as AA's almost negligible growth rate.
Project Match? Don't get me started. Faulty study. Moos? That guy's studies aren't even worth considering. More of the same billshit and almost certainly a stepper.
The World Health Organization did a report a few years back where they analyzed every possible cost effective method imaginable. These are people who really know their shit, and know a bogus study from a good one. What they found was:
"the mesa-grand study found evidence of ineffectiveness of 12-step facilitation from 6 studies and of
ineffectiveness of Alcoholics Anonymous from 7 studies (109). An additional
systematic review of 8 studies found no studies that unequivocally
demonstrated the effectiveness of Alcoholics Anonymous or 12-step facilitation
approaches for reducing alcohol dependence or alcohol-related problems (133)."
http://www.euro.who.int/__data/assets/pdf_file/0020/43319/E92823.pdf
Another meta analysis found AA and 12 step facilitation to be ranked 37 and 38 out of 48 modalities. In other words, at the bottom of the list. I can't find my link to that right now but if I find it later, I'll post it.
Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/
"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
dave
Fri, 01/11/2013 - 15:53
Permalink
Hey Cause,
I really thought the article admitted where it was statistically unsound, but I see your points. You posted some interesting things to look at. I'm getting a better sense of this forum.
causeandeffect
Fri, 01/11/2013 - 17:49
Permalink
Here's the other link, Dave
http://www.behaviortherapy.com/whatworks.htm
Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/
"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
dave
Fri, 01/11/2013 - 18:21
Permalink
To cause and anyone else; different subject
Does it mean anything that Greg Muth (former aa gso manager) is now the chair of the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence?
http://www.ncadd.org/index.php/about-ncadd/our-board/206-our-board
Pennywise
Fri, 01/11/2013 - 18:28
Permalink
Sure. It means he's figured
Sure. It means he's figured out a way to bullshit his way to a lot of money without having to do any real work. He's sort of living the dream.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
Gunthar2000
Fri, 01/11/2013 - 18:47
Permalink
It means that...
an entire branch of medicine has been hijacked by a religious cult.
AA is a religious cult dressed up to look like a treatment for alcoholism.
Gunthar2000
http://www.expaa.org/
Pennywise
Fri, 01/11/2013 - 19:13
Permalink
I'd hardly call it medicine
I'd hardly call it medicine when you don't need to have ever attended medical school to be the chairman of the board (at least he wasn't a liberal artist):
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/greg-muth/a/587/b19?_mSplash=1
Greg Muth's Education
University of Hawaii at Manoa
none, Asia/Pacific Business Management
1983 – 1984
• Business Administration
• Accounting & Management
• Certified Construction Inspector, CCI
• Certified Construction Project Manager, CCPM
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
dave
Fri, 01/11/2013 - 22:52
Permalink
Greg M. was also involves with a company that did
huge drywall jobs.
live_free_or_die
Wed, 01/23/2013 - 16:22
Permalink
Funding independent filmmakers?
Manager
Mind The Gap, LLC
Entertainment industry
June 2008 – Present (4 years 8 months) Las Vegas, NV
The Company uses its capital to create and maintain a “Gap Fund.” The Gap Fund is used to provide various forms of gap financing to producers of independent films that will be distributed by Shoreline Entertainment, LLC. Under a gap financing arrangement, the Company will provide financing under a “last money in, first money out” structure. In other words, the Company will recoup its investment before the filmmaker and the filmmaker’s other investors receive payment for sales.
Above taken from Mr. Muth's Linkedin account
Huh, do you suppose he has funded any AA work?
Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/
dave
Wed, 01/23/2013 - 16:40
Permalink
To live free. An individual can not fund aa work.
Maximum contribution is 2 or 3 thousand per year per individual. Contributions can not be earmarked for specific things either, all contributions go into a general fund.
live_free_or_die
Wed, 01/23/2013 - 16:49
Permalink
dave you missed my point
I am suggesting that Mr. Muth, as a financier of independent filmmakers, may have funded new AA films.
There has been at least one of these billshit movies/documentary in the last year. You know the type of billshit movie I am talking about, right? The ones where they completely ignore the REAL BILL?
Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/
dave
Wed, 01/23/2013 - 16:59
Permalink
to live free
I did miss your point. Maybe he does financially support aa movies. I saw the movie and I really did not see the point of it.
causeandeffect
Fri, 01/11/2013 - 19:24
Permalink
AA has a few front groups,
AA has a few front groups, Dave. ASAM is another one. What they do is try to make AA look scientific, like pushing the disease theory, when AA is actually nothing more than superstitious faith healing. Why does the disease theory matter? Because it causes relapses.
"Although the occurrence of adverse life events did not predict 6-month relapse, all other domains singly accounted for significant variance in drinking outcomes. Proximal antecedents (from the prior 2-month interval) significantly and substantially improved predictive power over that achieved from pretreatment characteristics alone. When analyzed jointly, these predictors accounted for a majority of variance in 6-month relapse status. A prospective test supported Marlatt's developmental model of relapse, pointing to two client factors as optimally predictive of resumed drinking: lack of coping skills and belief in the disease model of alcoholism."
In other words, the more the subjects of the study believed they had a disease, the more likely they were to relapse. And AA doesn't really teach any effective coping strategies, just hand it over to gawd.
Here's a really interesting article that talks a little bit about the disease model and how it came about. And it turns out that Jellinek actually didn't have the credentials he claimed to have. He lied, He wasn't actually a doctor of any kind.
http://www.addictioninfo.org/articles/447/1/Alcoholism-is-not-a-Disease/...
AA always has and always will promote misinformation, and it really doesn't help anybody. It only hinders progress in understanding the issue. And as for the removal of stigma? How promoting the idea that all alcoholics have a disease that necessarily makes them iiars, cheats and thieves helping to remove the stigma? It doesn't and it's not true. There is no such thing as an alcoholic personality, But in AA you have to conform to this idea and actually change your personal history to fit the fallacy. This whole article kicks ass in my opinion. We've been going about treating alcoholics all wrong for decades.
"There never has been a scientific basis for believing that people with substance use disorders, let alone their family members, possess a unique personality or character disorder. Quite to the contrary, research on virtually any measure reflects wide diversity of personal characteristics among people with addictions, who are about as diverse as the general population, or as snowflakes. Studies of defense mechanisms among people in alcohol treatment have found no characteristic defensive structure, and higher denial was specifically found in a clinical sample to be associated not with worse, but with better treatment retention and outcomes."
http://www.cafety.org/miscellaneous/755-confrontation-in-addiction-treat...
Just a little reading and some food for thought, Dave. : )
Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/
"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
causeandeffect
Fri, 01/11/2013 - 19:43
Permalink
And just a little background
And just a little background information, Tiebout was Wilson's psychiatrist. No wonder he had such a bad impression of alcoholics. But his approach in treating the alcoholic is pure poison. And the steps never made wilson a decent man. He remained a liar, cheat and thief til the day he died.
Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/
"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
dave
Fri, 01/11/2013 - 23:02
Permalink
Cause: I'll read some of that. I did'nt even know
what the ASAM was. I dont really know what the national council on alcoholism and drug addiction is all about either. For me, I could never call it a disease although it has always seemed like a decent analogy to me. Now that I'm thinking about it I dont think I have ever talked about my drinking as a disease or told someone else they had a disease, I always that would be a cop out. I have never really thought about it, but I have never seen anything scientific about aa either.
dave
Fri, 01/11/2013 - 23:19
Permalink
I find the relapse idea lame for the most part.
I think there are only excuses. It's a choice. I think the term relapse only fits a few situations, maybe.
massive
Sun, 01/13/2013 - 11:41
Permalink
HI Dave..I agree. Its a
HI Dave..I agree. Its a choice. If someone is drinking a fifth a day for a long time , they will and can go through withdrawal and may die from that, but so many these days are NOT this type. (Amy Weinhouse would still be here if she was given Bill & Bobs elixir when coming off of heavy alcohol use.) Bill W had a very low bottom.
I think AA should just be for those hopeless folks.
I think AA harms more then it helps. I think we will find hundreds of thousands who will come forward after the suit gets served and my film and the book comes out that will expose how much harm AA has done to people.
Many people I guess including Greg, used their AA thing to get a job. So many people I knew who had no training or education got jobs in the new Treatment Industry in 1980's when the law was passed that insurance would pay for treatment. Some helped others, but I saw a type of power tripping and loss of humility that I had never seen before. It was sad. But I saw it as a problem then, but even people I really respected did this even though they had no education in the filed of therapy.
Some had a gift with it , but overall, they took the easy greedy way. Im glad Im gone.
Massive
FrankM
Sat, 01/12/2013 - 00:38
Permalink
It's a choice of words
AA likes to push words like disease and relapse as they make the individual more dependent on this so-called baffling condition. I think it is far more productive to call it what is is, a behavior. When we drink to the point where we cause problems for ourselves and others we have learned a bad behavior. If a person wants, it is far easier to change a behavior than some mystical disease. We tend to have far greater control over our behaviors than we do some made up disease. For the most part we feel we are in control of our behaviors but a disease? My point is, words like disease and relapse makes the average person become more dependent which is what AA wants and needs to exist. This relapse from our disease sounds helpless, like the cards were stacked against us when in fact we returned to our old behavior. If I really want to change a behavior I can, I just do not participate in that behavior any longer, basically I don't ingest any alcohol. Pretty simple, the only thing is I must really deep down get sick of the behavior in order to want the change. No steps, sponsors, meetings or dip shits involved in changing my behavior, it's up to me.
NoAAUK
Sat, 01/12/2013 - 02:13
Permalink
@dave
I repeat what what Anti Stepper Cult people have continually stated ' In substance misuse recovery (?) the Lunatics most DEFINITLEY run the asylum'
......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11
DeConstructor
Fri, 01/11/2013 - 16:39
Permalink
Project MATCH
like project COMBINE, did not use a control group.
This alone should make it noncredible to anyone who has been through 7th grade science or watched Mythbusters.
These studies were biased propaganda looking to document concocted results.
massive
Sun, 01/13/2013 - 11:43
Permalink
Decon. do you remember that
Decon. do you remember that youtube video of someone shooting their BB? It was posted on Stinink Thinkin
Massive
DeConstructor
Sun, 01/13/2013 - 16:09
Permalink
I will see if I can find it
There was also a video from iggy where he was trying to find a lie in every single page of the BB.
Pennywise
Sun, 01/13/2013 - 16:15
Permalink
I believe that was AASUX here
I believe that was AASUX here.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
Pennywise
Sun, 01/13/2013 - 16:19
Permalink
Here:
Here:
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
dave
Fri, 01/11/2013 - 22:44
Permalink
to decon
I just read that about project match on wiki
live_free_or_die
Sat, 01/12/2013 - 01:43
Permalink
I'm sorry dave, I can't let you do that.
Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/
live_free_or_die
Sat, 01/12/2013 - 01:52
Permalink
AA doesn't work dave
http://www.positiveatheism.org/rw/ofcourse.htm
http://www.sossobriety.org/cults.htm
http://ronbosoldier.blogspot.com/2009/04/religious-cult-of-alcoholics-an...
http://www.atheistmissionary.com/2009/04/cult-of-alcoholics-anonymous.html
http://www.moonmac.com/Cult_Called_AA.html
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/addiction-in-society/201203/the-war-...
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/addiction-in-society/201209/the-delu...
http://www.baldwinresearch.com/alcoholism.cfm
http://stevil-speaks.blogspot.ca/2011/05/free-inquiry-aprilmay-2009-1-mo...
http://fromdeathdoipart.com/
http://www.ontrackandbeyond.com/
http://bereanresearch.com/references-2/
Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/
NoAAUK
Sat, 01/12/2013 - 03:38
Permalink
Does Alcoholics Anonymous
Does Alcoholics Anonymous Work?
In a word.......No
......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11
NoAAUK
Sat, 01/12/2013 - 04:03
Permalink
Orange hit the nail on the
Orange hit the nail on the head when he stated that some people sober up despite steppism not because of it.
Anybody who believes God works miracles on demand for people just because they attend cult indoctrination sessions and woffle on about a program copied from the oxford group cult by a chain smoking sexual predator of a conman, IS seriosly deluding themselves and more importantly......others.
If you want to think that god has miracled you stop drinking, whilst at the same time ignoring other innocent more worthy causes such as the dying third world starving, to name but ONE of these innocent others, by all means dream on. But you people are not content with living in wacko land, you prey on other bemused victims who do NOT belive the same insanity as you do. In fact step 12 demands that you constantly recruit fresh victims into the madness in order that YOU can survive.
That is what the Anti Stepper movement wants to expose, the predatory lying cult of steppism for what it is.........just a predatory cult....nothing more
......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11
Orange
Sat, 01/12/2013 - 15:52
Permalink
bad propaganda
Thanks for the link Dave.
I just had to post a comment:
causeandeffect
Sat, 01/12/2013 - 18:46
Permalink
"The CBT group (Cognitive
"The CBT group (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy) was polluted with 12-Step teachings. In fact, the "counselors" who "taught" the CBT program were actually believers in the 12-Step cult religion who couldn't resist the temptation to teach 12-Step theology in the CBT classes."
And I have a very strong suspicion that it was the same case with Project MATCH. I mean, where would they even get enough counselors to teach CBT or Motivational Enhancement Therapy in a field so saturated with steppers for a study of such a large scale? I believe there should have been at least some differences shown between the different modalities. It seems to me that all the participants were most likely fed the powerless billshit, and that's why they all fared almost exactly the same. Unfortunately I can't prove it. YET...
Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/
"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
Orange
Wed, 01/16/2013 - 18:31
Permalink
RE: And I have a very strong suspicion that it was the same case
Yes, and even worse than that:
No control group. There was no group that got "no treatment", so that doctors could see how much the treatment did or did not improve the patients.
Cherry-picking: the patients were hand-picked for each group, trying to establish the hypothesis that professional (read "paid, expensive") treatment was better for some patients, while free A.A. was okay treatment for other patients.
Payment -- the alcoholics were paid to come to the meetings, no matter whether they were sober.
The results were that all three groups got the same results. That is, free A.A., professionally-administered "A.A. treatment", and bastardized CBT all gave the same results.
More on that here:
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html#MATCH
dave
Wed, 01/16/2013 - 21:03
Permalink
I do not believe any studies that I have seen that prove or
disprove the efficacy of aa. I usually have a problem with the motivation of the people being studied and how they define the problem drinkers.
From a clinical point of view I would not be surprised if the studies that show aa as less effictive are more accurate. I agree with your comment.
dave
Sat, 01/12/2013 - 18:37
Permalink
I have never heard of spontaneous remission.
When I was new to aa I was still obsessed with drinking I would say. When I went to a meeting I usually did not want to drink afterwards and it was usually to late to start anyway. One day I was freaking out debating if I should drink or not. I went to a meeting, called the guy who became my sponsor, and read some literature. Nothing worked. Out of desperation I resorted to the serrenity prayer and said it. When I was done with the prayer the obsession left me that second never to return. Would you call that spontaneous remission?
causeandeffect
Sat, 01/12/2013 - 18:57
Permalink
Most likely, Dave. Cravings
Most likely, Dave. Cravings are time limited, with different lengths of time for different people. I had the same situation where I felt like I wanted to crawl out of my skin i wanted to drink so bad, but unlike you I did drink for a couple days. Once I quit after those couple days, I never had a desire to drink again. It took me a while to realize it though. It was like one day I had just realized how many times I had passed the store without even thinking about it. Seemed like a miracle at the time, but now I realize it just happens that way sometimes. Now, I may have the very rare occasional thought, but it's as easy to brush off as a gnat on my arm.
Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/
"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
causeandeffect
Sat, 01/12/2013 - 19:00
Permalink
Dave, when that happened to
Dave, when that happened to you, had you already worked the steps?
Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/
"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
dave
Sat, 01/12/2013 - 19:15
Permalink
To cause"
I had completed a thurough step one. I know I was not on step 3 yet. Before the obsession left me I would reread my step one and it usually made me see that alcohol had more control over me than I remembered and that usually would be enough to make me not want to drink.
Pennywise
Sat, 01/12/2013 - 19:18
Permalink
How do you know you completed
How do you know you completed a thorough Step One? Isn't it really just something you and your sponsor make up as you go along?
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
dave
Sat, 01/12/2013 - 19:52
Permalink
Step one was easy for me. There were some
obsession related things that I would call the powerless part. I also had a good amount of things in my life that needed major improvement that my constant drinking did not help and I called that the unmanageability part. I read it to my sonsor, he listened, then I went home. One I wrote it all out and I looked at it, I was very surprised how much "drinking" permeated my life in such a negative way.
Pennywise
Sat, 01/12/2013 - 20:04
Permalink
"Step one was easy for me"
"Step one was easy for me"
Pretty much everyone in AA says that.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
causeandeffect
Sat, 01/12/2013 - 20:15
Permalink
Well, all I can tell you is
Well, all I can tell you is that in the over 2 1/2 years I've been blogging about this, I've encountered many people who've internalized that message in such a way that it even made their drinking/drugging worse. And in fact, having already encountered that idea before I went to AA, I feel it fueled my drinking. There's a world of difference between feeling powerless, and being powerless. And AA, in fact, states that you are (or were, but if you relapse that is a useless distinction) powerless. If I were to take someone who wishes to quit drinking to an AA meeting, I'd walk them in the door and say, "See, all these people were as bad off as you, if not worse, and most of them are sober now" then I'd spin them around and shove them out the door before they get a chance to hear the words "powerless" or "constitutionally incapable."
Now if it said: "We admitted that we felt powerless over alcohol" then I wouldn't have a problem with step one. But that wouldn't frighten people into staying in AA quite enough. So there you have it.
Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/
"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
Pennywise
Sat, 01/12/2013 - 20:18
Permalink
Yep. Because it is all about
Yep. Because it is all about God. If you only felt powerless, you wouldn't need God, would you?
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
causeandeffect
Sat, 01/12/2013 - 20:25
Permalink
More specifically, you wouldn
More specifically, you wouldn't need the specific God™ that one can only find in AA, which is different the other God entirely.
I really love the opportunity to use that trademark symbol. lol!
Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/
"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
dave
Sun, 01/13/2013 - 15:26
Permalink
We admitted we WERE powerless. (past tense)
In a meeting I say I am recovered and that I am no longer powerless over alcohol as long as I dont drink. I have noticed these words disturb many people. From my point of view this expanding view of powerlessness has grown in the meetings I go to. I think it diverts people from the solution and getting on with their lives.
It sounds like our relationship with alcohol is and was very similiar. When I meet guys at meetings who tell me that the meetings make them think about drinking even more and they have tried a few meetings, I suggest that they stop going. I usually get the impression that I was the first one to tell them that and they often get a big smile on their face. It's like some people need to know it's ok not to go and be told that they are not crazy. These conversations have only lasted 10-15 minutes at the most.
Pennywise
Sun, 01/13/2013 - 15:29
Permalink
Your AA colleagues find those
Your AA colleagues find those words disturbing because they directly contradict what is written in the Big Book, which is the divinely inspired gospel you folks are supposed to live by.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
dave
Sun, 01/13/2013 - 15:40
Permalink
I find it interesting that more newcommers who
have read the book agree more with me most of the time. My theory is that they have not been tainted with some of the wacky meeting speak yet.
Pages