Practical experience shows that nothing will so much ensure immunity from drinking as intensive work with other alcoholics

NoAAUK's picture
Submitted by NoAAUK on Tue, 01/08/2013 - 01:58
Proof that God has made it impossible for drunks to stay sober unless they constantly attend and recruit for His cult
0% (0 votes)
Unsubstantiated lies preached by a predatory cult to ensure gulible members continue to recruit and indoctrinate new members
0% (0 votes)
Just more cult BS same as the rest of that book wrttten by a lying, thieving, acid popping, conman of a sexual predator
8% (1 vote)
Both of the last two choices
92% (11 votes)
Total votes: 12

Comments

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Tue, 01/08/2013 - 02:07

Not been able to post recently, have other matters to attend to, but Merry Christmas and a Happy prosperos New Year to all of the Anti Stepper Cult Movement.......God bless (whether you are atheist, agnostic or some form of beliver, I'm sure the Powers that be don't care:)

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Tue, 01/08/2013 - 07:37

Practical experience shows that nothing will so much ensure immunity from being brainwashed by the Religious cult of Alcoholics Anonymous as intensive work with others still suffering from the cults that Bill Wilson built.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Orange's picture

Orange

Tue, 01/08/2013 - 15:19

Don't you also love the twisty language: "ensure immunity from drinking"?

As if you have to be "immunized" against deciding to pick up a drink?

Or does getting immunized from drinking mean that alcohol no longer works on you when you drink it?

I also like the "practical experience" claim. Which clinical controlled studies were those, Bill?

dave

Tue, 01/08/2013 - 19:12

I also agree with orange.

dave

Tue, 01/08/2013 - 18:56

Not everyone is good at working with other alcoholics in my opinion and I have heard people admit this. Working with other alcoholics has been a gift for me and a privilage. Watching people fix their lives and overcome obstacles has been a very cool thing. I will admit that when I am working with another alcoholic, I am very far away from taking a drink or I may just feel really good because I am being helpful.

Orange's picture

Orange

Tue, 01/08/2013 - 19:49

Is that supposed to mean that the worker somehow talks the other one into not drinking any more?

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Thu, 01/10/2013 - 04:50

I dont think of drinking when I do LOTS of things. Repeating unconnected garbage at stepper cult meetings did make both myself and many others think of drinking.

I dont personally believe a 'so called ' alcoholic SHOULD be allowed to help or show another 'so called' alcoholic the way to 'so called' recovery, there is a 'loss of objectivity' for a start in this case. How can anybody seriously expect to advise (?) a PROBLEM Drinker to stop drinking and change his/her lifestyle for the better, when all this councellor has ever done is drink and or drug and then become obsessed with so called 'recovery?' What actual life skills DOES this individual possess? This person has not done anything except abuse substances and recover from this abuse....obsessivley.

I too agree with Orange and others, in substance misuse councelling the lunatics MOST definitley run the asylum......do initially to step 12

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

dave

Thu, 01/10/2013 - 11:23

I agree with most of that. When I sponsor men today I rarely if ever give advice. I do try to get a good phone relationship going with the guy so we can get to know each other so he can decide if he wants to work with me or not. We will go through the steps. If he tell me about a specific problem I often say I have no idea what you should do. When we talk longer he usually comes up with a solution on his own and I just support it. I try really hard to help guys be "true to themselves" and sometimes not listen to certain aa rhetoric that has no basis in fact. I have noticed over the last few years I spend more time "deprogramming" a guy of wacky aa advice than I have before. In short I think its like this: I will go through the steps with someone and some positive things happen, they are on their own to improve the rest of their life.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Thu, 01/10/2013 - 11:45

Dave, I'm just wondering. How do you go through the Steps with someone and not give advice? I don't understand how that can happen. You are hearing their deepest and darkest secrets and guiding them through coming to a conclusion on what to do because of these secrets. In a court of law it is called leading the witness to come up with the required confession. As we all know (except probably in your group) that AA members and their "stories" are usually embellished by the Steps during this process.

I was associated with an AA coven of about 300 people with the average meeting being between 90-150 Bill Wilson chanters. The thing that first warned me about the cult of Alcoholics Anonymous was when an out of town speaker was coming in to talk about a drunken episode where he ended up shooting and killing his daughter. He spent 10 years in jails and claimed that because of the god given program of Alcoholics Anonymous that was devised by a con man tripping on Belladona Atropa and seeing god and then claiming to be god reincarnated. It was quite the event and almost all of the coven showed up to listen to his story. We ran out of chairs and many people were standing.

I just find it strange that this event would cause such a commotion. Have you read "Little Known Facts About Bill W." http://www.alternatives-for-alcoholism.com/bill-wilson.html It is quite an eye opener on the true history (and verifiable) of the cult commonly known as Alcoholics Anonymous that is brainwashing people in AA parking lots.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

dave

Thu, 01/10/2013 - 12:20

I dont have to say anything when someone reads their 5th step. Sometimes I will ask for clarification if I sense the person is leaving something out. Sometimes the person is and sometimes the person is not. If the person is not, I usually just listen to the rest of it, say the prayer at the end, let the guy reflect on his own and talk to him the next day. We then move on. Through doing the steps with others I have learned that all of my sopnsees do some things better that me and are actually better than me morally in some areas also. When I shared my 5th step, my sponsor only asked me one question. Have you done the steps and are you an alcoholic? Can you ocaisionally drink without a problem and do you?

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Thu, 01/10/2013 - 12:40

Are you aware of Clancy I's 7 questions and the sexual inventory? I realize that it doesn't happen in your group, but the Pacific Group in the Alcoholics Anonymous Pacific Region where PRAASA is held does. Per the 12 Steps you can get involved in other groups if they cause trouble for AA as a whole under Tradition 4, "Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or AA as a whole." Do you think that the Pacific Group and its actions and teachings should be brought up at the next PRAASA convention? I don't believe they should be allowed to use the AA name and they should be sued for doing so... I also realize that being powerless to change AA is the usual excuse...

Clancy's Seven Questions
Submitted by JR Harris on Wed, 04/18/2012 - 08:58
http://orange-papers.org/forum/node/1231

Alcoholics Anonymous Step 4 Sexual Inventory Defined - "Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves."
Submitted by JR Harris on Sun, 05/20/2012 - 16:58
http://orange-papers.org/forum/node/1491

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

dave

Thu, 01/10/2013 - 13:55

I think there is almost always something I can do to enhance the outcome of events and my personal mental health. When I first read the aa text I thought bill had more sex issues that the average person. Obviously that was true. I don't like guides that interpret the steps. I think they confuse things and complicate matters. I'm not totally in love with the 12X12 either but there is some good stuff there in my opinion. I know a few people who are popular speakers who left the pacific group and dont like (I think they actually hate) certain things about it. My opinion is they felt there was an overwhelming pacific group control issue. These people got sober there and are grateful for that, but I think they were disappointed and angry when they saw the truth. These people who I am talking about are still very active in AA. I met clancy once, he seemed nice. I tend to avoid anything clancy because I get the sense too many people put him on a pedestal and that bugs me, I hope I'm not jealous, I just dont see how any ONE person can be all that awsome. One of my sponsees used to be a huge clancy supporter and thought his words were absolute and perfect. While talking to him the other night in a parking lot with a liquor store and a bar nearby I asked him if clancy was dead yet. He said no and went on to tell me a few things that he disliked about clancy and I was surprised. I have never attended a pacific group meeting although I have been invited. I may check it out one day.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Thu, 01/10/2013 - 14:43

Of course you're powerless, you know that the Pacific Group is a dangerous cult offshoot of Alcoholics Anonymous rife with sexual manipulation (after all it did spawn Midtown in Washington DC Area 13) and cult practices and you are powerless to stop them. Go to conference and expose them and get them de-listed off of the main AA website and have them sued by AAWS to stop using the AA name in any of their rituals. I know you're going to make the excuse that you're only one member and no one will listen to you, even if you do go to PRAASA and know more about it than me (I'm just a lowly coffee maker and haven't met Phyllis Halliday the GSO Chairman and non-alcoholic).

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

dave

Thu, 01/10/2013 - 14:49

Regional service assemblies like praasa, regional forums and special forums are places you can meet some current and past trustees, the general service office manager, some gso staff and area delegates if you wish. As a coffee maker you are welcomed and encouraged to attend any of these. I would say that regional forums are geared more for the aa member who is not involved in general service. Regional forums started as a result of a suggestion of a non alcoholic trustee I think. The non alcoholic trustee saw the huge disconnect between general service and the groups.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Thu, 01/10/2013 - 15:05

Well I guess that's as good an excuse to be powerless as any other excuse. Don't worry once you're deprogrammed from the cult of Alcoholics Anonymous you will learn to be rigorously honest with yourself.

Glad you came, keep coming back and don't leave until the miracle happens. Millions of people have been saved who were suffering from the brainwashing of the cult of Alcoholics Anonymous.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

dave

Tue, 01/08/2013 - 20:29

I really mean going through the steps with another alky. When I reread my post I think I made it sound like it takes a long time. My experience lately is that it does not take very long to go through the steps. I have never told anyone not to drink. I have suggested to people to call before they drank and I also told them they could drink after our conversation if they wanted. It's their choice. My feeling is that it's only about the drinking until the cravings go away, then its about getting the steps done.

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Sat, 01/12/2013 - 02:51

Your posts are just standard stepper cult regurgitation that we have heard repeated so often in the past, meaningless cult speak.

I'll ask you the same simple questions I have asked other brainwashed cult devotees in the past.

Why does the stepper god (not the real God) only remove the obsession to drink alcohol (a dead plant). This so called 'all powerfull god' does NOT appear to posses enough POWER to make people return to 'normal (?) drinking even if the pidgeon completes sexual predator, acid popping, chain smoking (amongst a number of equally undesirable human ailments) bill wilsons (copied from the oxford groups) steps and attends a number of weelky cult indoctrination sessions know as stepper meetings.

Does this god also REMOVE all your character defects and if so why do you have to continually work these steps? surley you would and the rest of the steppers who worked this faultless program given by this god, via the oxford group and also a dead monk, (LOL) should have achieved complete spiritual perfection......in fact you dont really need to continue living in this veil of sinfullness, now being spiritually perfect due to following the dictates of sexual predator and conman (amonst other equally offensive things) wilson. Unless, that is, god has told you to continue to work on us lesser developed spiritual entities who belive steppism is just a predatory cult, using misinformation and outright lies to con vulnerable new members into a lifetimes attendance at these fearmongering cult indoctrination sessions called meetings.

Regurgitate your nonsense if thats what floats your boat, but why do you people continualy at every opportunity, attempt to infect and convert others into your insanity.

Do you need us who realise you preach complete and dangerous nonsense, in order to be spiritual gurus? The sexual predators who infest your cult certainly need a continual supply of vulnerable bemused victims in order to remain successfull sexual predators

Its worth thinking about, even steppers remark that it is a 'selfish program'

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Tue, 01/08/2013 - 21:41

Well, Dave, I would expect you to use some AA lingo. After all, you are an AA member who has been steeped in that kind of thinking for, 18 years did you say? Personally that kind of thinking was toxic for me and I spent a looooong time teasing every last bit of it out of my brain. It was then that I found a freedom and happiness that I can't begin to describe. I participated in a blog called http://stinkin-thinkin.com/ where the veracity of 12 ideology was challenged all the time. It is not in it's former state, as it closed down for a while, but i really got a lot of good out of it. Perhaps your friend would like to join us here or at the site found in my signature. He might really require a different way of thinking.

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Tue, 01/08/2013 - 21:45

BTW, I think the success you have working with alcoholics has more to do with your personality than the steps themselves. In my opinion, you deserve the credit, not AA or the steps.

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

dave

Tue, 01/08/2013 - 22:11

but I doubt he will remember. I agree with you, he might really require a new way of thinking. I'll keep you informed. Thanks again for the help.

YuppieMonkey's picture

YuppieMonkey

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 06:45

I probably took about 50 people through the steps over a 20 year period. The last time was in 2009 and I was sponsoring a person that was completely ready to quit drinking. In 20 years I never met anyone like him. He soaked up everything we covered in the AA scriptures and looked at me with starry blue eyes and he would have jumped off a bridge if I had told him he needed to for his sobriety.
In my heart I knew without question that spontaneous remission had ocurred in this individual. He was hardly going to drink again no matter what, and as we were going through the steps and the Big Book, I knew it was all lip service. I could have told him anything, perhaps he needed to drink green tea daily at 5 pm, and it would have worked, he would have stayed sober.
His sobriety had nothing to do with the steps, and darn sure had nothing to do with me. Over the next 6 months I watched him get fully indoctrinated into the 12 step religion. Now he swears up and down the steps saved his life, and he has become the most devout Bill W disciple.

I know how the steps work, and it is sickening. It steals the credit for other peoples work, and also takes credit for spontaneous remission, which occurs extremely infrequent by working the steps. From the 50 people I took through the steps, 2 that I know of stayed sober, and neither because of the steps.

"You'll pay to know what you really think". - J.R. Bob Dobbs

dave

Thu, 01/10/2013 - 14:08

One thing that attracted me to aa was this: I thought if I completed the steps I would be able to face my life without guilt and I would be square with society. The steps helped me achieve this. If I drink again its my choice.

YuppieMonkey's picture

YuppieMonkey

Thu, 01/10/2013 - 15:10

Yep.
Those magic steps are why the guilt went away.
They remove obsessions!
They remove fear too!
And make you happy!
And much, much more!
Bill Wilson must be a prophet chosen by Almighty God Himself!

Dave, you are in the wrong place to be parrot-phrasing that crap.
Go to AA and find a newcomer desperate enough to want what you supposedly have.

By the way, I have no guilt, I am square with society and drinking is my choice.
This happened without any steps, meetings or anything else AA related.
Hmmm.
And I am still waiting for that death warrant Bill W 'suggested' would be coming my way...

"You'll pay to know what you really think". - J.R. Bob Dobbs

Gunthar2000's picture

Gunthar2000

Thu, 01/10/2013 - 15:31

Looking at the steps and the literature, I can see how AA piles the guilt onto newcomers. The thing I could never understand is when and where the guilt goes away. It seems to me that the entirety of AA is guilt and religion based. Exactly when and how is the miracle supposed to happen?

AA is a religious cult dressed up to look like a treatment for alcoholism.

Gunthar2000

http://www.expaa.org/

btnben's picture

btnben

Thu, 01/10/2013 - 15:42

Were you really that bad? AA makes you say you were - but is it true? I know from my own experience that the most harm I did was to myself, not others. A big part of the deprogramming is looking at your past honestly. To be honest, if you were a drunk, then probably more harm was done to you than you did to others. Don't sweat it.

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

dave

Thu, 01/10/2013 - 15:57

I agree with what you said.

dave

Thu, 01/10/2013 - 16:11

answer to that question. I have seen it work though. I have also seen meetings clearly keep some people down.

Gunthar2000's picture

Gunthar2000

Thu, 01/10/2013 - 16:46

There is a lot of talk about guilt in AA... a lot of dredging up the past... a lot of emphasis on supposed character defects... I'd just like to know where in AA literature does it teach you to make the guilt go away?

AA is a religious cult dressed up to look like a treatment for alcoholism.

Gunthar2000

http://www.expaa.org/

dave

Thu, 01/10/2013 - 19:34

It may be implied. Do you know?

Gunthar2000's picture

Gunthar2000

Thu, 01/10/2013 - 20:07

It's not there.

The whole thing is a guilt trip designed to cause people to drop to their knees and beg God for forgiveness.

AA is a religious cult dressed up to look like a treatment for alcoholism.

Gunthar2000

http://www.expaa.org/

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Thu, 01/10/2013 - 21:42

Hi Dave, we haven't met up yet, just wanted to introduce myself. I have seen much the same, actually. It seems it works best either with the true believer types or those who are OK taking the good and leaving the rest. I do have a few friends who are AA, and atheists even, but they didn't take it perhaps as literally as some others did.

At any rate, welcome.

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

dave

Thu, 01/10/2013 - 21:59

I quess we will see how it goes.

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Thu, 01/10/2013 - 21:23

Yeah, they pile it on pretty thick. Considering the theological background they were working from, it was an idea that was sanctioned (rather picked up on) by Bill W in the early days, and has not fallen away. They replaced "original sin" with "defects of character", and "life before salvation" with "active addiction", and the rest has played out with just as much similarity as that the good ole' old time religion. You're always a sinner, you're always supposed to feel guilt, you're always supposed to atone.

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

btnben's picture

btnben

Thu, 01/10/2013 - 15:37

Bill W says in the BB that you are powerless - you will hit these times when you only have your HP to stop you taking that first drink. How's your bedpan?

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

dave

Thu, 01/10/2013 - 15:54

I could never admit to powerlessness to the degree the book suggests. I do believe that I was powerless over my thoughts after I had a few beers and some other obsession and craving related things. Even today I believe I had the power not to take the first drink, it was just very difficult. Controlling my drinking would be a bitch also. Once the obsession left me taking a drink was a choice and being powerless over alcohol's effect on me was no longer an issue because I stopped drinking.

When I tried to rectify my past, I did not feel guilty anymore. You dont have to be in aa to make ammends. People do it all the time that are not alcoholics in aa.

Brett

Thu, 01/10/2013 - 17:55

Practical experiance has shown that nothing, absolutely nothing works as well as not swallowing alcohol, bugger rarely; never has this simple 1 step programme failed, even for dishonest, constitionaly incapable people.

Brett

btnben's picture

btnben

Fri, 01/11/2013 - 00:14

The thing that really pisses me of with AA is their refusal to accept that alcoholism is due to drinking. It's not a symptom, it's the one and only cause...lol. Keep your head in the sand long enough and a kick in the ass is guaranteed...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

FrankM

Fri, 01/11/2013 - 02:50

Rule # 1. Do not ingest any form of alcohol into your system....ever!
You can be too dumb but never too smart for this simple program.

The Promises: Your life will immediately get better, no hangovers, no chance of a DUI, no associating with the criminal element in church basements, no need for sponsorship, someone that

probably doesn't have a job and knows less about life than you do, and you will become employable.
You will be amazed that you can follow this simple program as long as you maintain the desire to
do so without having to seek advice from someone that really only wants to bum money from you.
It's up to you, it is totally your decision.