Louis Ephraim Wilson III dies in Prison while serving life sentence for murder of woman he met in Alcoholics Anonymous in 2007 - Dec. 19, 2012

JR Harris's picture
Submitted by JR Harris on Sat, 01/05/2013 - 11:33


In 2007, Louis Ephraim Wilson III (31) tied up, raped and violently killed Tracy Lynn Baldwin (38) who he met at an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting in the Chatham/Durham County, North Carolina Alcoholics Anonymous General Service Area 51 District 32 (http://www.aanc32.org/). Tracy Lynn Baldwin was found partially nude and tied up with fishing line and badly bruised after being beat with a baseball bat. No reports of AA members blaming the victim have been reported YET. Louis Ephraim Wilson III died in jail on December 19, 2012 at the Maury Correctional Institution (http://www.doc.state.nc.us/dop/prisons/Maury.htm).

Chatham Woman's Killer Dies Two Years Into Life Sentence

Posted: Friday, 28 December 2012 5:46PM
WCHL News Reporting

WCHL News Reporting
Louis Ephraim Wilson III, who was serving a life sentence for the 2007 murder of a Chatham County woman, has died in prison at age 34.

Wilson pleaded guilty in 2010 to the murder of Tracy Lynn Baldwin, who was raped and beaten to death in her home off of Mann’s Chapel Road.

Prosecutors said the two met at Alcoholics Anonymous meetings and that Wilson stole her credit card to buy crack cocaine before the attack.

In his obituary, family members remember Wilson for his sense of humor and love of the outdoors.

Wilson was incarcerated at the Maury Correctional Institution at the time of his death. According to his obituary, he died in his sleep on December 19.

Source: http://chapelboro.com/Chatham-Woman-s-Killer-Dies-Two-Years-Into-Life-Se/1...

Durham man gets life sentence for 2007 murder
PITTSBORO -- Louis Ephraim Wilson III will spend the rest of his life in prison after pleading guilty today to killing a Chatham woman whose bruised and beaten body was found in her home in 2007.

Wilson, 31, pleaded guilty to the first-degree murder of Tracy Lynn Baldwin, 38, who police found dead and mostly naked, tied up with fishing line in her bedroom.

A sheriffÂ’s deputy found the body after BaldwinÂ’s mother called 911 and said she hadnÂ’t spoken to her daughter for about a week.

Prosecutors contend that Wilson and Baldwin knew each other from Alcoholics Anonymous meetings. Wilson somehow gained access to BaldwinÂ’s ATM card, stole her money to buy crack cocaine and eventually raped and then beat Baldwin to death with a baseball bat, prosecutors said.

WilsonÂ’s defense team said the defendant was mentally ill and addicted to crack cocaine. In court, Wilson disputed the prosecutor's contention that there was a violent struggle before the murder.

BaldwinÂ’s mother, Lynn Hill, said she has been waiting nearly three years for justice.

“I have waited so long for this,” Hill said, “This feeling that he can never harm another person as long as he lives.”

Source:http://www.newsobserver.com/2010/03/12/385159/durham-man-sentenced-to-life...

Comments

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Sat, 01/05/2013 - 14:12

AA members appear to use baseball bats quite often as a way to kill their victims they meet in Alcoholics Anonymous. In 2011 Leslie Haun used a baseball bat to kill his Sponsor Shaun Shain Pierce in Covington, Kentucky, Kenton County in Alcoholics Anonymous General Service Area 26 District 5 (http://www.aakyd5.org/Links.html). Leslie Hauns son, Robert Haun watched the murder while eating a bologna sandwich....

AA Member Beats Sponsor to Death
http://stinkin-thinkin.com/2011/09/27/aa-member-beats-sponsor-to-death/

Kentucky man charged in beating death of AA sponsor
http://www.ksdk.com/news/article/278946/3/Alcoholics-Anonymous-sponsor-k...

Leslie Haun pleads guilty to killing AA Sponsor with baseball bat May 30, 2012, sentencing on July 10, 2012 http://www.orange-papers.org/forum/node/1585

Leslie Haun, Kentucky Man, Accused Of Killing Alcoholics Anonymous Sponsor
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/29/alcoholics-anonymous-sponsor-ki...

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

dave

Sat, 01/05/2013 - 15:24

The victim's sister, Tammy Callen, told The Enquirer that her brother wasn't an alcoholic, but took part in the Alcoholics Anonymous program so he could assist people in need.
“He took in I don’t know how many people,” she said. “He was well loved and well respected.”

Maybe he was a memember of aa or just a helpful guy. I feel stories like the one you posted need to be told. I wonder if churches warn their members when they help others by inviting people into their homes. My limited experience is that nothing is codified and people who render assistance are left to figure it out on their own. I still invite AA members into my home, but not as much as I used to.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Sat, 01/05/2013 - 17:06

Tammy Callens brother, Shain Pierce was killed by an AA member Leslie Haun with a baseball bat in Norrthern, Kentucky. Shain Pierce was acting as an AA Sponsor and they met in Alcoholics Anonymous. Does it really matter if the Sponsor or the killer were "real" alcoholics? You see the "you're not a real Alcoholic" excuse is used in the cult of Alcoholics Anonymous for many reasons, normally to explain why people leave the cult and live normal everyday lives.

Victim's sister: 'I hope you die in there'

Beating death lands father, son in jail

2:27 AM, Jul 11, 2012

COVINGTON — The sister of a homicide victim told a judge she will respect America’s justice system but she believes in the legal principle that a punishment should be identical to the offense.

“I should be able to beat him in the way that he beat my brother to death,” Tammy Callen said at Leslie Haun’s sentencing on Tuesday in Kenton Circuit Court.

Haun, 47, of Covington received a 20-year sentence after previously pleading guilty to murder. He used an aluminum bat and table leg to beat to death his Alcoholic Anonymous sponsor, Shain Pierce.

“I hope you die in there,” Callen yelled at Haun.

In reference to her prior work with Haun in a court-sanctioned mental health program, Kenton Circuit Judge Patricia Summe said she was disappointed with the defendant.

“I would have never have expected, from your prior actions, that you could have acted in such a … murderous way,” she said. After the killing, Haun had implied to authorities that Jesus had assisted him in the crime. In an impassioned speech to Summe, Callen described how Pierce, a convicted felon, would attend AA meetings to help out others. After passing Summe a framed collage of pictures of her brother, Summe passed a box of tissue to a teary-eyed Callen. Pierce was returning to his Covington apartment after having a toe amputated in September when he found Haun drunk with his adult son. Pierce had offered the elder Haun a place to live.

“They are not fit for human skin,” Callen said of Hauns.

Haun’s son, 21-year-old Robert Haun, was sentenced to five years. He had previously pleaded guilty to tampering with evidence after admitting to getting rid of his father’s clothes and bat. Investigators said Robert Haun sat in the kitchen of the apartment eating a bologna sandwich during the fatal attack.

“How does anybody explain being able to do this: eating a sandwich while someone in the other room was being beaten to death?” Callen said.

Robert Haun shook his head in apparent agreement as Callen spoke. Robert Haun’s attorney, Mike Hummel, said his client had just been united with his biological father and had only lived in Covington eight days at the time of the killing. Summe said that was no excuse for the actions of the younger Haun.

“I have seen people report pet owners for kicking their dogs,” she said, before also acknowledging it was hard for her to comprehend how Robert Haun did not at least call police.

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20120710/NEWS0103/307090096/Victim-s-...

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

dave

Sat, 01/05/2013 - 18:29

" Does it really matter if the Sponsor or the killer were "real" alcoholics? " I don't think it matters. I do believe many AA members are willing to risk personal harm to help another alcoholic. I have also met an athiest who has let homeless people live in his house and tries to help them get on their feet. He has had problems in the past with some of the people he has helped, but he but continues to help. It's his choice.

I get the sense that you think I am trying to lessen the severity of the article you posted and I am not. Like I said before, the story needs to be told in my opinion. The story is tragic.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Sat, 01/05/2013 - 19:11

The clergy risk personal harm also, but like AA members they also go bad and are sued along with the diocese they belong too. A diocese is the same type of entity as an Alcoholics Anonymous General Service Area. A diocese has various organizations below them called churches or parishes that are set up just like Alcoholics Anonymous Intergroups. The churches or parishes have individual groups underneath them, just like an AA Intergroup. Hundreds of diocese have been sued and the diocese along with the church or parish and the groups have been sued in many cases. It is only a matter of time and through the building of databases where, when and by whom these incidents happen and people will not be able to say "it doesn't happen in my group" anymore. It is only a click away to find the truth.

This is a very immense database of the lawsuits, payments, accusations and tracking of priests in the US that gives the names, dates, places and diocese involved-
http://bishop-accountability.org/priestdb/PriestDBbydiocese.html

It is only a matter of time before a database close to this will be available for Alcoholics Anonymous and all as you have to do is click on the state to find the truth.

As for your atheist friend who has had trouble but not attacked, scammed, tied up and raped and beat to death with a baseball bat. I am glad that he has not been hurt. Does he know of the dangers of the AA groups in his area? A quick look at the police and court logs in the area will let him know.Does he also know that the famous "Spiritual, not Religious" slogan and myth of Alcoholics Anonymous was written by Bill Wilson who saw god during a belladonna trip. Is he aware that the famous Mothers Day meeting at Henrietta Seiberlings house in Akron was after Wilson saw god. Is he aware that Henrietta Seiberling was concerned about Bill Wilson because he was claiming to be Jesus Christ reincarnated? Is he aware that Chapter 4 "We Agnostics" in the Big Book was written by Bill Wilson and he wasn't a "real" agnostic? Most agnostics don't claim to see god and be his reincarnation.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

dave

Sat, 01/05/2013 - 19:57

someday, but I doubt it. You don't understand the structure of AA. I wonder if you have ever been in general service? I am guessing you have not. It took me a few years to figure it all out. The GSO and AAWS have no power over districts, areas, h&i committees or intergroups.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sat, 01/05/2013 - 20:06

That is my understanding, Dave. Although they certainly have a whole lot of influence. But the point remains that the Intergroup could start selling lap dances at meetings and there would be nothing the GSO or AAWS could do beyond refusing to do business with it. It's not like McDonald's or something where there is a franchise agreement they could rescind.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

dave

Sat, 01/05/2013 - 21:09

I would argue that with most intergroups and areas the influence of the GSO and GSB is huge. Some do fight though.

FrybreadSam (not verified)

Sun, 01/06/2013 - 08:26

I disagree. I understand that Intergroup can do fundraising at its own events but it couldn't go onto a meeting and sell anything.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Sun, 01/06/2013 - 08:47

That is out right incorrect and easily proved false. It leads me to believe that you are not a member and know little if anything about AA. Look at the financials(on some websites) or IRS form 990 of any Intergroup and you will see a line for revenue for sales and a line for cost of goods sold proving they sell things.

Example El Paso Texas AA General Service Area 66 For the Eleven Months Ending November 30, 2012 -

Literature Sales - 12,680.62
Cost of Goods Sold - 7,042.66

Founders Day Income Misc - 1,866.50
Founders Day Ticket Sales - 1,975.00
Founders Day Expenses - 2,250.11

Jamboree Income Misc - 4,875.22
Jamboree Ticket Sales - 22,056.00
Jamboree Expenses - 17,960.53

Source: http://www.aaelpaso.org/aa_el_paso_financial_page.html

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

FrybreadSam (not verified)

Sun, 01/06/2013 - 09:41

I think you are wrong, JR. I believe a group would have the right to say no to lapdances.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sun, 01/06/2013 - 09:57

The intergroup would have the right to show up at a meeting with strippers and offer to sell lap dances. However, the group would also have the right to kick them out. AAWS or the GSB could write letters and threaten to delist, but beyond that, there is little they could do because they have no legal power over the intergroups and local groups. That is my understanding, anyway.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

dave

Sun, 01/06/2013 - 09:12

Many intergroups engage in fundraising. Some bleeding deacons say its wrong however its done. The only problem in my opinion is when money is taken from non aa's and if intergroups get too much money. These issues seem to get solved quickly because most aa's do want to conform to the traditions. I don't see a problem with having events like founders day, it is an event put on by aa members for aa members, and the profits (if any) go to maintaing local intergroup services.

FrybreadSam (not verified)

Sun, 01/06/2013 - 10:01

As I said, Intergroups can and do fundraising, but groups can't. I have been in meetings where the groups didn't sell tickets or publicize events such as founder's day picnics. Some IG rep wouldGroups don't have to even have to belong to Intergroup. But I have seen it refused as those were considered outside issues.

dave

Sun, 01/06/2013 - 09:57

I have seen groups choose not to be listed in the local directory. I have seen groups choose not to be listed in the local directory and still donate to the intergroup and have a GSR. I think anything is possible. In the spirit of what you mentioned, I think a group can do what it wants as long as it does not affect other groups and the group tries to approximately conform to the traditions.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Sun, 01/06/2013 - 11:22

I realize that you have a lot of "time" in AA and have learned all of the slogans, sly suggestions and circular logic it teaches. By say "approximately conform to the traditions" is the same thing as saying "you can take what you want and leave the rest" and "AA does not govern" while at the same time saying that AA Traditions govern all of AA. As you have continually said that AA NY (AAWS, AAGSO/AAGSB) do not govern you are again using circular logic. I believe the first time you attempted the "your not an AA member" or "you don't have time in the program" tactic of passive aggressive slogans was when we were talking about the PRASSA conventions and you claimed that the DSMs vote, but it doesn't mean anything and you couldn't identify the purpose of the convention. If PRASSA can't change AA, who does?

Come on, I realize that you have a lot of time in the AA program and have talked many newcomers into the AA slogan lie of "it's spiritual, not religious" and many others. It's not your fault, you have been brainwashed by the cult of Alcoholics Anonymous. You know the flowery one that uses the slogan that "God saved me a parking spot in front of the meeting" and others. It doesn't matter how much "time" you have in the program or how many circular logic slogan you know.

A good example to prove this is Donald Blood III (who has 18 years in AA) from Marlboro, Vermont Alcoholics Anonymous General Service Area 70 District 8 (www.aavt.org/aamtg8.htm) who on December 24, 2012 was going to a meeting at the Wilson House (Birthplace of the delusional Bill Wilson who was a well know adulterer and claimed he was god and talked to dead monks and sea captains). God left Blood a parking spot on the front lawn, God must have also wanted him to get arrested for DUI....

Driver facing DUI charge at AA founder's home claims wife at wheel
December 28, 2012
http://bostonherald.com/news_opinion/local_coverage/2012/12/driver_facin...

"Time," "slogans" and "passive aggressive attacks" mean nothing here. They don't work and people will be called upon them every time. I realize thet you are brainwashed by being in AA so long and sorry for the tough love approach, but it is the only way you will get better. Don't you want to get better and be honest with people?

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

dave

Sun, 01/06/2013 - 11:48

... conformity to A.A.'s Twelve Traditions, the group, ... 12&12 p.174, Tradition Nine

Unless there is approximate conformity to A.A.'s Twelve Traditions, the group, too, can deteriorate and die.

The traditions are not black and white and are up for interpretation.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Sun, 01/06/2013 - 12:14

So the "you can take what you want and leave the rest" is a big lie? Also I noticed that you quoted the "12&12" which is a bad idea, You see the "Big Book" was written (stolen actually by Bill Wilson from about 200 people) but the 12&12 was written during the time that Bill Wilson was doing LSD, cheating on his wife, talking to dead monks and sea captains and claiming he was Jesus reincarnated. Henrieta Seiberling was very upset about it and Tom Powers even left and refused to help with the "12&12" because of Bill Wilson and his adulterous affairs (P.S. Since he was with him writing the book constantly during this time it only seems logical that Wilson was asking him to lie for him).

This information can all be found and referenced at:
http://orange-papers.org/orange-otherwomen.html
http://orange-papers.org/orange-Henrietta_Seiberling.html

Again, sorry for the tough love but you have been lied to and brainwashed with slogans and circular logic. The fact is that AA was devised by a con man who conned the Widow Helen Griffith out of Stepping Stones for a 1/4 of it's price with the help of a real estate agent and fellow AA member named Joan C. He only had to pay a $40 mortgage per month and he was being given $320 (5 times the average salary at the time) a month from the Alcoholics Foundation, driving a Cadillac, taking vacation all over the country and cheating heavily on his wife claiming to be doing 12 Step calls.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

dave

Sun, 01/06/2013 - 11:50

... conformity to A.A.'s Twelve Traditions, the group, ... 12&12 p.174, Tradition Nine

Unless there is approximate conformity to A.A.'s Twelve Traditions, the group, too, can deteriorate and die.

The traditions are not black and white and are up for interpretation.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sun, 01/06/2013 - 10:39

Fry, why can't a group do fundraising? Surely they can. I think I've seen it in the form of spaghetti dinners and such. Indeed, if a group decided to do fundraising for an outside cause such as cancer research, there is nothing the intergroup could do besides delist from the intergroup website, no?

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

FrybreadSam (not verified)

Sun, 01/06/2013 - 11:43

The way I understand it is that the groups arent supposed to be profitable, which us why any surplus at the end of tbe year is sent onward. Maybe it is open for interpretation.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sun, 01/06/2013 - 11:57

Let's say a group decides it wants to be profitable anyway. Who is going to stop them and how?

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

FrybreadSam (not verified)

Sun, 01/06/2013 - 12:06

I don't know, Penny.

dandammit's picture

dandammit

Sun, 01/06/2013 - 12:21

http://www.aa.org/pdf/products/f-96_theAAGroupTreasurer.pdf
I don't know either but think the publishing company of AA would interfere or some Rehab would cause trouble.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sun, 01/06/2013 - 12:17

To hold AAWS or the GSB responsible for malfeasance within the groups, wouldn't AAWS or the GSB need to first have some real power to control the behavior of those groups?

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Sun, 01/06/2013 - 12:52

Baby Steps, go for the low hanging fruit first - Intergroup is the most likely. You see other organizations which claim that they have no governing body have been exposed by going after the low hanging fruit first. Take the Mafia, they claim that it doesn't even exist. To prove it did they had to take legal action at the lowest levels and work their way up. The same thing will eventually happen with AA.

AA NY is insulated by lawyers and disclaimers, but the members are well known and documented. The Integroups are registered non-profit agencies that have paid and non paid members. The paid members are the ones that you go after for allowing their names to be put on legal documents. Of course you have to find them doing something wrong first, but it will happen eventually. Say one of these paid members give medical advice to someone to go off their prescribed medication and they end up dying or they help with an AA event that has Al-Anon and Alateen attendance (Santa Clarita Valley Central Office of AA comes to mind) and something happens to a minor and they didn't put enough security in or allowed a pedophile that they knew about to be at the event. These poor unfortunates can and will eventually be found a sued and/or jailed. You think they will not talk and try to shift the blame to the higher ups in AA if they get a $100,000 judgement or a 10-20 year prison sentence?

If I can find out who these people are, many people can. it is public record on IRS Tax forms and State Corporate Databases. There are also meeting notes on many Intergroup websites which are very damaging in some cases. Emails saved on servers and personal computers can be retrieved.

That is the only way to pierce this cult called AA and have the house of cards come falling down. You can try going after the main headquarters at the Interchurch, but like the Mafia, you have to get the soldiers first and have them turn on the leader that claim they are not leaders.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

FrybreadSam (not verified)

Sun, 01/06/2013 - 13:43

What if the group isn't involved with IG?

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sun, 01/06/2013 - 10:40

*

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sun, 01/06/2013 - 10:32

*

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

dave

Sun, 01/06/2013 - 09:47

tickets to events after the meeting where I live. The person selling the tickets makes an announcement at the end of the meeting and then people buy tickets if they wish after the meeting. In my opinion there is nothing wrong with this.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Sat, 01/05/2013 - 20:16

I have been deep in the bowels of AA General Service. I do have to wonder how deep you have gone. Many of the statements you make are looking through rose colored blinders filled with the passive aggressive defenses of "you're not an alcoholic", "you're not an AA member", "it doesn't happen in my group" , the switch to "its; Spiritual, not Religious" among others. Can you try not to use them? You have to understand that the majority of the people on this site are not newcomers (pigeons as Dr. Bob called them) and see through them real quick.

As for the GSO and AAWS have no power over districts, areas, h&i committees or intergroups that is false, big time. They all use AAWS published material. have you seen the following that is set up, distributed and promoted by Alcoholics Anonymous in New York as training material (which also means they are giving instructions to the minions)?-

How to set up Alcoholics Anonymous Prospect Hunting Trips to Jails and Prisons, direct from the Interchurch Center the CORRECTIONS KIT http://orange-papers.org/forum/node/1598

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sat, 01/05/2013 - 20:26

J.R., I'll defer to you. You know way more about this than I. I have not even read the service manual. Anyway, let's say a rouge Intergroup decided to buck the tend by promoting moderatation instead of abstinence. Let's this really pissed off the GSB and AAWS. Aside from perhaps refusing to sell materials and services to the Intergroup, what else could the GSB or AAWS do? Could they sue the intergroup for breach of contract or something? Could they revoke any licsenses? Could they forcibly remove and replace the Intergroup leaders? Could they file a motion to enjoin the Intergroup from preaching moderation?

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sat, 01/05/2013 - 20:42

Put another way, if a McDonald's restaurant started selling outside products in violation of the franchise agreement, corporate McDonald's would be entitled to take certain legal actions to remedy the violations. What similar remedies, aside from protecting its copyrights, would AAWS and the GSB have available to use against intergoups? Like I said, I have not read the Service Manual, nor am I familiar with the working relationships between local groups and AANY.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

dave

Sat, 01/05/2013 - 20:44

I have seen intergroups for example sell all sorts of non aa literature, have fundraisors open to anyone, and other things and the general service will not do anything. Usually the Local area gets involved and possibly causes more problems in the short run. The GSO could refuse to list the intergroup in the directory, but I have not seen that happen where there were complaints. AA literature is available to anyone and AAWS can not discriminate, AA must sell to everyone.

I don't think any of you guys are lacking in aa experience. I thought I would encounter people with more or as much as me here. I agree with some of the things discussed on this forum, especially the stuff dealing with predators in aa. I am not going to allude to my position in general service any more than I have and it's really not that big of a deal. I do have conversations with everyone I have said and others. I dont ask for documentation regarding who has last sued aa because I just believe it. I know details of some cases, but now you have me wondering where does one find it on paper.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sat, 01/05/2013 - 20:54

So let's say the GSO goes crazy and has a real hard-on to fuck with a given intergroup that is selling unauthorized material. Aside from refusing to list the intergroup on the GSO's own directory, what ELSE could the GSO do? If a McDonald's started selling Whoppers from Burger King, corporate McDonald's would be entitled to kick some ass beyond just delisting the offending restaurant from the directory. What similar powers does the GSO have?

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

dave

Sat, 01/05/2013 - 21:17

curious too. I know letters would be exchanged with the local delegate to possibly help with the problem. I have also seen special forums come to places that were having problems. Special forums are not like service assemblies or regional forums, special forums address a specific need and allow for communication. Intergroups are as autonomous as an aa meeting.

btnben's picture

btnben

Sun, 01/06/2013 - 04:46

In Mexico, AAWS committed perjury to have an AA member imprisoned for distributing non-AA approved literature. They then paid off Thomas Jasper, the attorney who had sanctioned the action, to keep quiet.

In Germany, AAWS used the funds from two thirds of the groups that they hijacked to pay for a guaranteed loser civil suit, knowing that it would bankrupt the individual AA member being sued.

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

dave

Sun, 01/06/2013 - 09:32

copyright infringement. AA would argue it wants a proper translation of the material it owns. Some literature in the US is no longer copyrighted but it still is in other countries. Intellectualy property rights vary from country to country.

When a country's general service structure "comes of age" so to speak, the profits from the big book stay in that country. I think the copyright is turned over to them. AA would say that profits from literature sales need to stay in that country to keep aa going. This is a case where it is about money. I don't know where the literature for England is printed for example, is it here or there.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Sun, 01/06/2013 - 09:56

Again that is circular logic. AAWS and AA GSO (actually legally it is GSB) do not govern the autonomous groups below them. You have said time and time again that AA in New York at the Interchurch Center does not govern any AA group. Yet, when the Mexico and German groups are brought up where AA New York (AAWS AND AA GSB with the same top leader who at this time is Phylis A. Halliday) sues and financially destroys AA members in Mexico and Germany for GIVING AWAY the "Big Book" that is OK?

You can't have it both ways. It is called Alcoholics Anonymous World Services for a reason. Those lawsuits were not initiated in the US because they couldn't be. Greed got in the way of the AA New York staff and they went after AA members. So now you are claiming that AA is not the same worldwide? AA New York only controls the groups through lawsuits outside of the US?

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

dave

Sun, 01/06/2013 - 10:19

Legally AA is actually owned by the trustees of the General Service Board. In reality they could do whatever they wanted and aa members could do nothing about it. In this instance aa members only have the poewer to stop sending money. I forget exactly, but the GSB only meets about every other month and cant handle daily operations of aa. The GSO and the GSO manager are charged with carring out certain responsibilities. I dont know about Phyllis, but I know Greg M would often consult with the chairman of AAWS and the chairman GSB before making big decisions. To a degree aa members have to "trust the trusted servants". I would say the GSO manager has the authority to make decisions on behalf of aa. I would argue that all of aa's trustees and services workers are suppose to run aa and protect it the best they can and to keep it in tact for the future and serve the aa groups. Their job is not to govern, it is to do what they have been entrusted to do. This does not always go perfect. Have you ever asked for clarification or direction on something from the GSO. They generally will provide you with the experience of other groups in dealing with situations. Unfortunately in my opinion they have been tight liped in other areas.

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Pennywise

Sun, 01/06/2013 - 10:51

Ok, so let's say for whatever reason the GSB/AAWS pass a rule that coffee can no longer be served at meetings. Let's then say that a local group in Chicago decides that the GSB and AAWS can go fuck themselves and that the group is going to keep serving coffee. The GSB and AAWS find out and are pissed. Besides perhaps delisting, what can the GSB or AAWS do to keep this local group in line? Anything?

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

dave

Sun, 01/06/2013 - 11:22

their only action would be to remove them from the regional directory if the meeting was even listed in the first place. AA's don't like bieng told what to do for the most part. When I was DCM people would want to talk at my meeting. I was told for example that I had to let the delegate speak at my district meeting. I said no I dont, the delegate serves our district and I make the decision on the agenda. I was fully within my power to do this and was not violating any traditions. The twelve concepts of would service address's these types of issues and there are not always black and white answers. For an aa group any 2 or 3 members gathered together can call themselves an aa meeting.

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Pennywise

Sun, 01/06/2013 - 11:42

So basically it is correct to say that the GSO and AAWS have no "real" power over local AA groups and that local groups are indeed autonomous in the true sense of the word, right? Indeed, a local group could blatantly disregard the 12 Tradtions and there is nothing the GSB or AAWS could do about it besides sending them a harsh letter or delisting them from a directory, correct?

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

dave

Sun, 01/06/2013 - 13:36

how aa sees it in my opinion. To correct a traditions problem discussion would be tried first. If a group, all on its own decided to act too contrary to the traditions it is said that the group will probably die on its own, but I have not seen this much and my experience is not that strong on this. I have seen meetings shrink in size due to non rotation of its leaders, but they seem to hang on and on. I think some meetings need to die in my opinion.

FrybreadSam (not verified)

Sun, 01/06/2013 - 13:46

Isn't that what is says in the concepts

dave

Sun, 01/06/2013 - 14:48

It say it all over the place in my opinion.

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JR Harris

Sun, 01/06/2013 - 11:39

Make up your mind Dave, either AA NY governs or not. You keep claiming that they do not, but then start quoting the "GLOBAL" service manual which is not in the "Big Book" or the "12&12" it is not the "real AA" is made up from the cohorts at AA NY. Show me in the AA Service Manual where it sayt that it is OK to attack individual AA groups and AA members in Mexico and Germany for giving away the "Big Book" but that people in the US are exempt from it?

Who voted on this and where? (I'll give you a hint, they didn't) Who authorized Thomas Jasper to be given nearly a half million dollars of AA money when he left as a consultant to the lawsuits? What groups voted on this?

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

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Pennywise

Sat, 01/05/2013 - 19:32

Not to get into this again, but remember priests are employees of the church. These AA lawsuits are more akin to a person suing a church for a tort committed against her by a non-employee congregation member.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

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JR Harris

Sat, 01/05/2013 - 19:50

Church - Non Profit Organization
AA - Non Profit Organization

Church - Uses some paid employees
AA - Uses some paid employees (Tradition 8 "Alcoholics Anonymous should remain forever non-professional, but our service centers may employ special workers."

Church - Decentralized command with numerous autonomous satellites
AA - Decentralized command with numerous autonomous satellites

Church - has been sued numerous times, settled out of court on some, many suits won
AA - Has only been sued once before by Baldwin Research for $20 million which was settled out of court for an undisclosed sum and is cloaked using a non-disclosure agreement.

The only difference I see is that AA hasn't been sued many times..... can you find others?

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

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Pennywise

Sat, 01/05/2013 - 20:00

I find them to be quite similar, actually. But I basically consider AA meetings to be identical to church services. And of course my commentary on these suits would be quite different if, for example, there were a case where a victim was injured by an AA employee.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

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