It never ceases to amaze me the number of ways that people can blame the victim of a violent assault, murder or even financial scam. Lets play a game and see just how many ways there are to blame the victim and the ridiculous methods that people use to do just that. Here is the scenario:
Woman called "Miss Victim" is brutally raped and murdered while going into an area that is filled with ex-cons with severe mental issues and drug and/or alcohol use. Miss Victim, has a drug and alcohol problem herself and seeks help, she is hesitant because she has heard that some of the people in the area she is told to go into are dangerous, but she is told:
1. By the doctor that she needs to go to AA because it is "therapy" and is good for her.
2. All of the documentation on Alcoholics Anonymous says it is a wonderful and safe fellowship.
3. The Intergroup for AA in her area advertizes that a group is held at a certain area.
4. The Victim calls the Intergroup hotline and they say it is a wonderful and safe group and she should go.
5. The Victim goes to the first meeting and finds a Sponsor and the group seems safe.
6. The Victim needing financial support and a place to stay, meets a friend of her Sponsor.
7. The Victim ends up moving in with this person because she needs help.
8. The Victims Sponsor sees nothing wrong with it and promotes it.
9. No one in the Intergroup or Group intercedes or does anything to stop it.
10. The Victim is attacked by the person she moves in with and he is put in jail.
11.The Sponsor of the Victim tells her that it was a one time thing and to bail out the man who beat her.
12. Shortly after the release the Victim is found dead, killed by the person lying next to her in bed.
This is a purely fictional accounting, that may resemble the Karla Brada case and the rules are you use only the above information and you identify the victim as "Miss Victim", just like in AA you are supposed to identify yourself as an Alcoholic. YOU USE ONLY THE ABOVE INFORMATION GIVEN, NOTHING ELSE! No news reports of a crime that resembles this one. Use just the above facts.
Go ahead, see how much blame you can put on Victim and see how many excuses you can make for the doctor, Alcoholics Anonymous, Intergroup, Intergroup hotline, Group, Sponsor and the murderer.
Hopefully after this exercise people will start to look at the blaming of the Victim that has been happening.......
Comments
YuppieMonkey
Sun, 12/30/2012 - 08:12
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marietta sez:
Number 6 is nothing but greed. Instead of looking to satisfy her material desires, she should have been praying to her higher power to have this defect removed. If she would have followed the path as written in the first 164 pages of the Big Book instead of practicing self-will run wild, God would have kept her safe.
"You'll pay to know what you really think". - J.R. Bob Dobbs
JR Harris
Sun, 12/30/2012 - 08:57
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The logical excuse for the doctor it that it is standard
The logical excuse for the doctor it that it is a standard procedure to prescribe AA as aftercare, so he is blameless. It's Miss Victims fault, she should have gone to a Doctor that doesn't prescribe AA. Miss Victim is to blame.
As a side note, aren't doctors supposed to discuss any possible side effects of a prescription they give you? Oh, I guess they forgot to do that with a prescription for Drug and Alcohol overuse. They do it with everything else.
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
FrybreadSam (not verified)
Sun, 12/30/2012 - 12:46
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There is also a big prob with
There is also a big prob with your scenario. Karla had the.house and the finances. So, where in the literature is it advertised that sponsors find you housing and money?
massive
Sun, 12/30/2012 - 15:32
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good post jr ....People need
good post jr ....People need to start suing Blue Cross and Aetna for sending them to a religious cult rehab that took them in a van to an AA meeting where they met a man who murdered them. Karla's parents will be calling her insurance company as well in the new year and putting them on notice.
Massive
Pennywise
Sun, 12/30/2012 - 08:25
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What you call blaming the
What you call blaming the victim I call preparing for what the other side is going to say. You are mistaken if you think you have any chance of winning this lawsuit without addressing these issues. Moreover, even though you may be 100% convinced that you are right about AA, you'd be wise to keep in mind that a judge might be very hesitant to create a broad rule that dispensing the advice given in AA counts as the illegal practice of medicine.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
JR Harris
Sun, 12/30/2012 - 08:39
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Follow the rules, Miss Victims family in the exercise is not
Follow the rules, Miss Victims family in the exercise is not bringing lawsuit.This is an exercise to see how many ways to blame Miss Victim and no talk of any lawsuit is being offered in the scenario.
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
FrybreadSam (not verified)
Sun, 12/30/2012 - 12:53
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Then I guess there are plenty
Then I guess there are plenty of ways to do it as AA is not a dating service. Her sponsor probably wouldn't tell her to move.in with someone she doesn't know. Her sponsor might have her stay with HER for a week if two, but AA isn't a social service agency that provides food, shelter and money.
JR Harris
Sun, 12/30/2012 - 08:59
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AA can't be to blame just because the Big Book and 12&12 don't
AA can't be to blame just because the Big Book and 12&12 don't have warnings on them stating that many people in AA are recruited from jails and prisons and as part of plea deals 3rd level sex offenders and murderers are being mandated to them. AA states you can take what you want and leave the rest. It is Miss Victims fault she took the wrong parts and should have left them. Miss Victim is to blame.
Of course the Doctor can't be to blame just because he prescribed Miss Victim to AA without giving any of the possible side effects. Look in your medicine cabinet, I'd be willing to bet that any medicine, over the counter or by prescription has a warning label on it. The Big Book was prescribed to Miss Victim. Where is the warning label that tells you to discontinue use if certain things happen?
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
massive
Sun, 12/30/2012 - 15:36
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The sponsor and her husband
The sponsor and her husband were friends with Eric Earle. ( He went to rehab with him and possibly was in jail with him at one time) They convinced her after he beat her up that she should take $7,000 she didnt have and put it on her credit card instead of telling her to STAY AWAY FROM THE MAN WHO JUST BEAT HER UP!!!!!!!!!Those fuckers need to face what they did as well. What their part in it was ....
He killed her two weeks later. Its a bad bad scenario. The public at large as well as current AA members need to be warned. What we dont need is more Hollywood propaganda aka
FLIGHT with Denzel Washington and SMASHED! you can find us on www.leavingaa.com www.stop13stepinaa.wordpress.com
Massive
JR Harris
Sun, 12/30/2012 - 09:10
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You can't blame the Intergroup for advertizing a "bad" group
You can't blame the Intergroup for advertizing a "bad" group that Miss Victim found. The Big Book says all AA groups are just wonderful. It's Miss Victims fault, she should have gone to a different Intergroup to find a group to join.
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
JR Harris
Sun, 12/30/2012 - 09:40
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The Intergroup Hotline can't be responsible for recommending the
The Intergroup Hotline can't be responsible for recommending the group to Miss Victim. Miss Victim should have known that the Intergroup recruits its members from jails, prisons and court systems, she should have known better and not listened to the Intergroup Hotline person that recommended the group to her. Miss Victim is to blame for that one also......
Never mind that the Hotline operator should have known if they go into jails and prisons looking for recruits and all of the court cards that get signed at meetings. The Hotline operator had no responsibility to tell Miss Victim the dangerous group she was going into, even if she did know. It's all Miss Victims fault.
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
FrybreadSam (not verified)
Sun, 12/30/2012 - 10:26
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JR, you just disagree with
JR, you just disagree with Penny's efforts to show what is wrong with Karla's case. But why wouldn't you look for these to anticipate the opposition's position.
JR Harris
Sun, 12/30/2012 - 10:34
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Again, this is not about Karla'a case. It is blaming Miss Victim
Again, this is not about Karla'a case. It is blaming Miss Victim. Pennywise is playing the devils advocate on the Karla Brada case, so i took her name out and used Miss Victim and gave the exact same information leaving out the lawsuit. Let's leave Karla out of this and the lawsuit and just discuss the facts on Miss Victim.
Is that so hard to ask? Why even bring up Karla, that is not the reason for this post. I want to list how everyone makes a victim out of anyone that is wronged in AA, because it does happen constantly.
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
FrybreadSam (not verified)
Sun, 12/30/2012 - 11:11
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I brought it up as it is
I brought it up as it is obvious it was born out of frustration due to Penny bringing up real reasons as to why her parents probably don't prevail. In your case, how many suggestions is Miss Victim going to ignore? For example, you have a home but you don't owe some else a warm bed, so dont move anyone in that you don't know. Try going to women's meetings for the first weeks. It's suggested that you don't date for the first year let alone get engaged and start planning s wedding a week after you start going to the fellowship.
FrybreadSam (not verified)
Sun, 12/30/2012 - 11:16
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I don't mean to be hard on
I don't mean to be hard on you, JR, but you and others think that you can read dome disclaimer at the start of a meeting and that will be some magic fix. People do what they want ultimately.
JR Harris
Sun, 12/30/2012 - 11:42
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No AA needs to be made safer, if it can't it should be eliminate
No AA needs to be made safer, if if can't it should be eliminated. Sorry, don't mean to be hard on you, but if people don't try to fix the dangers and they keep happening the entire process is a failure and should be ripped apart and rebuilt from the ground up.
If a car is manufactured that continually has problems and only works 5% of the time and no one is trying to fix the problems by saying stupid slogans like "keep it simple stupid" and it worked for my friend or just try another one and maybe it will be better, that would be complete lunacy. Only an idiot or a con man would keep trying to use a vehicle that only works 5% of the time and get people to buy one of them and recruit all of their friends, family and neighbors to get them to sell them also.....
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
FrybreadSam (not verified)
Sun, 12/30/2012 - 13:05
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But for the many reasons
But for the many reasons Penny mentioned, AA isn't going to go away. There are all sorts of things out there that are designed to make things safer, such as things called laws. While most probably comply, some don't and people pay for their.choices. I don't care what you read at a meeting, people will do as they want.
JR Harris
Sun, 12/30/2012 - 13:22
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Again, this IS NOT ABOUT AN AA LAWSUIT it is about how many
Again, this IS NOT ABOUT AN AA LAWSUIT it is about how many ways can Miss Victim be blamed for her murder. It is called blaming the victim which I will admit Alcoholics Anonymous members love to do at any chance they can get.
Please quit bringing up a lawsuit. If you want start another thread. This is called how many ways can you blame the victim. How many ways and times have you blamed the victim so far on this thread? A good AA member would do a rigorously honest inventory per Step 4 and then make Amends to the people who they have harmed by making them the victim. Of course it is almost impossible to find anything even close to a rigorously honest AA member because they live the lie of Spiritual, not Religious lie for a life style.
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
FrybreadSam (not verified)
Sun, 12/30/2012 - 13:37
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It doesnt matter if it is
It doesnt matter if it is about the suit or not. Even with Penny, you wanted to try to control what could be offered up as a proper case. Even with Miss Victim, you are adding in so many details that AA doesn't address but also trying to hold AA accountable. A sponsor is to help you through the steps, not to provide you with a date, a home, meals, money and cigs. A hotline is simply to tell you where a meeting is located.
JR Harris
Sun, 12/30/2012 - 14:10
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No your blaming Miss Victim because she was put in touch
No your blaming Miss Victim because she was put in touch with a group from the hotline of the Intergroup that actually goes to jails, prisons and court systems to join their group. I know, it probably doesn't happen in your group is the usual excuse. But go to most Intergroup websites and you will find "Correction Committees" (sometimes hidden under Hospitals and Institutions) and Public information (PI) or Cooperation with the Professional Community (CPC) that go to the courts, probation and parole systems looking for criminal to fill the rooms with. You are blaming Miss Victim because she moved in with her Sponsors friend in a short time. Your blaming Miss Victim for her murder, plain and simple.
Haven't you ever heard of con men that take what they want and leave the rest? It can be money, sex or free work and AA claims it doesn't ask for any of them, but we both know that is BS.
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
FrybreadSam (not verified)
Sun, 12/30/2012 - 15:38
Permalink
No, I have been been part of
No, I have been been part of a group that had a Karla in it. While one would be too many, perhaps this isn't as widespread AA you'd like people to think.
massive
Sun, 12/30/2012 - 15:41
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sorry JR I brought up the
sorry JR I brought up the lawsuit.. I didnt read all of your posts. Im just.. well ....Im talking to the parents and I have seen the 36 page Complaint FIled. Its very real to me and I have seen the killer in court.
I also understand that AA in NY is accountable by its own words written in The AA Service Manual and on the tax return. It took and insider geek like me to see them for the bullshit AA is. I will post this in the new year or you took can read the AA service manual....although I will warn you its very very boring.
Massive
JR Harris
Sun, 12/30/2012 - 16:21
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It's Ok, everyone else is trying to bring it up and claiming AA
It's OK, everyone else is trying to bring it up and claiming AA isn't responsible no matter what. I am taking the devils advocate and saying OK, prove to me where Miss Victim is to blame. I'm using Miss Victim so that it doesn't upset any of the families of victims that this has happened too. This thread is also giving a listing of all of the "blame the victim" tactics they are going to be faced with. It will hit some people very hard when they see the same things that happened to them put in this thread.
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
Pennywise
Sun, 12/30/2012 - 16:26
Permalink
Why would someone have to
Why would someone have to prove Miss Victim was to blame in order to show AA was not to blame?
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
FrybreadSam (not verified)
Sun, 12/30/2012 - 17:12
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I don't get that, either,
I don't get that, either, other than it just seems to be how it is played here.
JR Harris
Sun, 12/30/2012 - 17:26
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Well why are people trying to blame the victim and saying AA had
Well why are people trying to blame the victim and saying AA had no part in it? That is what I don't understand and want to understand. So far all as I have gotten is that AA can't be held responsible and Miss Victim was to blame because it was here choice, even though she was not informed of the problems. Now were even getting people trying the "what if they met in a bar" scenario.
NEWS FLASH: Depending on the circumstances, bars get sued all of the time for rapes, murders and financial scams that the proprietors knew about and did nothing or even encouraged it. Drunk drivers who get in accidents and hurt someone often ends in lawsuits on the bar, event though it was the drunk drivers CHOICE to drink and they didn't appear drunk while at the bar.....
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
Pennywise
Sun, 12/30/2012 - 17:47
Permalink
That's because some states
That's because some states have special liquor liablity laws. So far there is no special liablity for support groups.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
JR Harris
Sun, 12/30/2012 - 17:56
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Are the States being changed to provide liquor liability laws
Are the States being changed to provide liquor liability laws that don't have them. I will guarantee that these laws started in one state and has slowly been adopted by others. the only reason for that is because people are complaining. If the first state that made these laws didn't do it, then it never would have happened. If the states that tried to adopt it had a lot of people saying that none of the other states have them except one and they buried their heads in the sand because of it, then dangerous bars that continually over serve their customers would not be shut down.
Is that what you are saying, that because these laws don't exist yet, just continue to blame the victim and don't go after the dangerous bars that enabled them? Isn't that the same as saying that a group that enables a very dangerous atmosphere should noit be prevented from doing it and the community should not be protected?
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
Pennywise
Sun, 12/30/2012 - 18:18
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1). True, but the right to
1). True, but the right to sell alcohol is not protected by the Constitution, whereas free speech and free association are.
2). Yes, I totally blame the victim. That is exactly what I have been arguing. I don't even see why the shooter is in jail. They should let him out and not charge him because it is totally her fault. That's precisely my argument :(
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
JR Harris
Sun, 12/30/2012 - 18:28
Permalink
So what exactly do you blame the victim for and what can be
So what exactly do you blame the victim for and what can be done to prevent it in the future? You see now we are getting somewhere. Identify what to blame the victim for and then look for the commonalities between all that the victim is to be blamed for. Remember to use the root cause analysis on each of the items you blame the victim for. Make a list and see how it can be changed.
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
Pennywise
Sun, 12/30/2012 - 18:31
Permalink
I don't know. Maybe she didn
I don't know. Maybe she didn't know when to shut up. Maybe she couldn't make his eggs the way he likes them. Either way, he's getting a raw deal. Because if AA isn't responisble, that only leaves her.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
El Oso
Sun, 12/30/2012 - 17:54
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Crazy legal system
"Drunk drivers who get in accidents and hurt someone often ends in lawsuits on the bar, event though it was the drunk drivers CHOICE to drink and they didn't appear drunk while at the bar....."
Do you find this morally justifiable in any way ?
"And if somebody told you God is on your side. I was told the very same thing So you know somebody lied." [Big Wind - Sonny Terry and Brownie McGhee]
El Oso
JR Harris
Sun, 12/30/2012 - 18:08
Permalink
What if the bar had a drink special or drinking contest
What if the bar had a drink special or drinking contest constantly that definitely made everyone in it over the limit. In Scotland right now they are starting minimum pricing to to prevent these "happy hours" and the problems they cause with drunk drivers. What if the bar had a drinking contest to see how much beer could be drank in 5 or ten minutes and many people participated. What if it was tequila and the person ended up dying of alcohol poisoning, would the bar be liable for enabling them?
Look closely on Google, you will find examples of all three examples and you still see no enabling by the bar to do these activities and claim they are blameless? What if they did it every Friday and every Friday for a month horrendous accidents happened every Friday coming from the bar? You place all of the blame on the drunk driver and wouldn't close the bar down or make them stop these activities?
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
El Oso
Mon, 12/31/2012 - 05:53
Permalink
Existing laws already cover most of these scenarios
Licensing laws and criminal laws would deal with the extreme cases you mention but I can't imagine that there would be any grounds for suing the bar.
Would you think it justifiable for a DIY store to be held responsible if a hammer they sold is used to murder.
The minimum pricing in Scotland is aimed at off sales in supermarkets. Pubs and bars already sell alcohol at levels higher than 50p per unit and would still be able to make substantial discounts for "Happy Hours"
"And if somebody told you God is on your side. I was told the very same thing So you know somebody lied." [Big Wind - Sonny Terry and Brownie McGhee]
El Oso
FrybreadSam (not verified)
Sun, 12/30/2012 - 17:25
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Well, Penny suggests why the
Well, Penny suggests why the tax forms don't matter AA as well as no obligation in CA
JR Harris
Sun, 12/30/2012 - 17:29
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Who cares, why are people blaming Miss Victim?
Who cares, why are people blaming Miss Victim? People have already claimed that it was her "choice" to go to the very dangerous AA group that aided in her murder already. So lets go with that and quit trying to blame AA at this point.prove to me that Miss Victim should be made to handel all of the blame. You are doing pretty good so far. What else can you blame her for?
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
JR Harris
Sun, 12/30/2012 - 11:33
Permalink
First off, the "suggestion" that you don't date, etc... for a
First off, the "suggestion" that you don't date, etc... for a year is NOT AA AND NOT IN THE BIG BOOK OR 12&12 that is a "suggestion" of some groups. Second off, AA is very proud of the slogan,"you can take what you want and leave the rest" meaning the "suggestion" by some groups that you don't date or get in relationships for a year which is NOT AA can be ignored.
But you are right, Miss Victim as a member of AA didn't follow a rule that is NOT AA and she took it as a "suggestion" that she chose to leave just like the AA members love to tell you that you can do. So yes, you are right that Miss Victim is the only one to blame for her murder. She is to blame for the entire thing.
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
FrybreadSam (not verified)
Sun, 12/30/2012 - 11:54
Permalink
You are right. It isn't in
You are right. It isn't in AA literature. I think that is rehab and most of those suggesting it seem to be rehab graduates. As for your second remark, that is just stating the obvious in a program of choice, isn't it? But again, how do you make an adult do something? If you can tell me that, you could save the world
JR Harris
Sun, 12/30/2012 - 12:50
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So you are claiming the murder is Miss Victims fault?
So you are claiming the murder of Miss Victim is Miss Victims fault because of the the slogan,"you can take what you want and leave the rest" which is a made up slogan, not conference approved and not in the Big Book or the 12&12?
So lets just vilify Miss Victim because she was murdered by a demented Stepper because she should not have been going out with him , despite the Doctor prescribing AA, AA claiming to be safe, the Intergroup advertizing the group and the Hotline recommending it, the group and her Sponsor seemed safe and the Sponsor talked her into bailing her killer out of jail.......
The answer to your question of how do you make an adult do something is simple, mandate them in a court of law. if they are mandated to 10 years in prison, they go to prison, it really is quite simple.
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
FrybreadSam (not verified)
Sun, 12/30/2012 - 15:24
Permalink
You provided tbe slogan, not
You provided tbe slogan, not me. While I hear that used in, AA I can't find it in literature. What I find are musts. No one is vilifying anyone. It's a shame, both for people in and out of the rooms, that there is such a thing as domestic abuse. I agree, go to jail. But I understand the man that shot the first responders HAD gone to jail for murder for killed his grandmother. He was eventually released. Perhaps crazy is just crazy.
massive
Sun, 12/30/2012 - 15:42
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JRH- great argument! Its
JRH- great argument! Its actually her rehab that sent her. Took her in a van.
Massive
JR Harris
Sun, 12/30/2012 - 15:56
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True, that is the Karla Brada case, this is a fictional case
True, that is the Karla Brada case, this is a fictional case that is close to hers. I am trying to find out all of the possible ways that people blame Miss Victim in this case.
In the Karla Brada Case, it sounds like she was actually transported to a dangerous group as "treatment" under a doctor at the Rehab. So in that case we can blame Miss Victim for going to a 12 Step Rehab instead of looking for alternatives such as SMART or Rational Recovery that don't make the papers daily with these types of problems.
I probably should have made this test scenario with Miss Victim going to a faith healer and sent to a Scientology Narcanon based Rehab where the same thing happened. I think the comments on this thread would be different.
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
FrybreadSam (not verified)
Sun, 12/30/2012 - 16:30
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His do you know SMART was
His do you know SMART was never suggested? What if she did and met a lunatic there?
causeandeffect
Mon, 12/31/2012 - 16:39
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clara, where are you getting
clara, where are you getting this idea that they were engaged and planning a wedding? I've seen no evidence of this other than an article that says he get "quickly engaged" with his victims. But nowhere have I seen it specifically stated that Karla was engaged to Earle. Nowhere. You always do this shit of saying something that just isn't there. Then you repeat it over and over and over ad nauseam. It gets really old.
Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/
"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
FrybreadSam (not verified)
Mon, 12/31/2012 - 16:53
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From the stinking thinkin
From the stinking thinkin articles.
JR Harris
Mon, 12/31/2012 - 17:04
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Read them again, obviously you have AA blinders on
Read them again, obviously you have AA blinders on. You have made numerous claims such as Karla and the murderer was engaged which is not true. That Karla moved in with him, which is not true. That she was shot, which is not true, she was strangled and the murderer claims he woke up with her and she was dead (pretty sick sleeping withe the person you just strangled). You didn't know that he strangled her because she told him to leave her condo....
All of these details can be read at: http://stinkin-thinkin.com/tag/karla-brada/
You're just trying to blame the victim without knowing any of the details because AA is involved and you want to protect the Nazi inspired Frank Buchman Oxford Group cult known as Alcoholics Anonymous.
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
FrybreadSam (not verified)
Mon, 12/31/2012 - 17:31
Permalink
I never said she moved in
I never said she moved in with him. Penny called him shooter and you said Karla had a male sponsor.
JR Harris
Mon, 12/31/2012 - 17:36
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Why don't you switch to blaming the victims of Midtown?
Why don't you switch to blaming the victims of Midtown? You have kind of blown your arguments here.
How many people blame the victims of the Midtown Group of Washington DC in 2007?
http://orange-papers.org/forum/node/3065
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
causeandeffect
Mon, 12/31/2012 - 17:04
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clara, all it says, and I
clara, all it says, and I quote "Earle becomes quickly 'engaged' with his victims and proposes marriage although on information and belief he has never obtained a judgment of dissolution from his wife."
Nowhere does it say that Karla and Earle were engaged. You just love spreading misinformation, don't you? Do I need to post my liar video again?
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FrybreadSam (not verified)
Mon, 12/31/2012 - 17:27
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If you go to nadaytona, you
If you go to nadaytona, you will see it in the comments section. If you go to s/t, you will see it in Mark's article. It isn't my business what you think of the information JR links.
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