Here are some lengthy snippets from Koepke v. Loo (1993) 18 Cal.App.4th 1444 (holding that a non-professional person does not have a duty to warn a domestic violence victim of a potential assault, even when the person has given the victim warnings in the past). I urge you to read the parts I highlighted. Also, even if you disagree with the opinion, I think it is wise to consider the public policy arguments the court is making:
http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?about=13120475404066678901&q=alco...
Facts [emphasis mine]:
Loo was the owner of a typesetting business. Norman Logan (Logan) was employed as a typesetter in the business. Commencing sometime in 1979 and continuing for approximately two years Loo and Logan lived together and were involved in a personal and sexual relationship. During this period Loo became aware of the fact that Logan had a drinking problem. Logan continued to work for Loo after the termination of their personal relationship.
Koepke became romantically involved with Logan in 1987. They did not live together, but maintained an affinity in that their boats were docked together in the same anchorage. Their relationship, though serious, was somewhat on and off, finally terminating in February 1989 after a vacation they shared in Lake Tahoe.
Shortly following this breakup Logan called Loo and told her that he was going to kill Koepke. Loo knew that Logan possessed a small handgun, which she had seen in his car sometime between 1981 and 1984. Loo called Peter Logan, the brother of Logan, and told him that Logan was going to attack Koepke. Peter Logan called Koepke and relayed this message.
Koepke attempted to leave her apartment to avoid any confrontation with Logan, but was unsuccessful. Logan confronted her as she was exiting and held a gun to her head. Koepke's screams and attempts to escape roused the neighbors. Logan, then fearing the police had been called, departed. This all occurred on February 23, 1989.
Loo learned of the assault and on the day thereafter, February 24, discussed the matter at length with Logan. Logan did not remember the incident, claiming he had "blacked out" in a drunken state. Loo convinced Logan to join Alcoholics Anonymous and to commence psychiatric treatment. Logan volunteered to give up his gun, and Loo accepted it with its ammunition, putting the items in her locked desk drawer. Loo was the only person with access to the drawer.
After the February assault Koepke obtained a temporary restraining order requiring Logan to stay 500 feet away from her. On the day before she was scheduled to appear for a hearing on the preliminary injunction, Loo called her and suggested that she not go through with the hearing, because Logan wanted nothing more to do with her. She further stated: "You don't have to worry. I have the gun." Koepke was relieved to hear this, and believed she was no longer in danger from Logan. She nevertheless went forward with the injunction hearing.
1448*1448 On March 26, 1989, at Logan's request, Loo returned the gun and ammunition to Logan. At that time Logan appeared to Loo to be stable, and was not making any threats against Koepke. Loo did not tell Koepke that she had returned the gun and ammunition.
On March 28, 1989, Koepke was at work as manager of a Howard Johnson Hotel. Logan confronted her and fired four or five shots, some of them striking Koepke in the legs. Logan left; Koepke crawled under her desk and called the police; the police pursued Logan in a chase down the freeway; Logan shot and killed himself.
Koepke testified that the weapon Logan used to kill himself was the same weapon he had used to threaten her in February and to assault her in March. This was a .38-caliber handgun. Officers investigating the shooting at the hotel found a 9-mm shell casing.
Koepke suffered severe and permanent injury from the assault. She underwent surgery and will require additional surgery. She was unable to walk for several months, and only gradually achieved mobility with a wheelchair, crutches, a walker and a brace.
Law [emphasis mine]:
The ground upon which the trial court's order is sustainable is the first prong of the definition of negligence: the determination of duty. If Loo had no duty to contact and warn Koepke, after returning to Logan his gun and ammunition, then she cannot be found liable even though it be determined that the failure to give the warning was a contributing actual cause of the injury. Unlike other questions to be determined in a negligence case (i.e., the exercise of due care, actual and proximate cause), the existence of duty is a question of law for court determination. (Ballard v. Uribe (1986) 41 Cal.3d 564, 572, fn. 6 [224 Cal. Rptr. 664, 715 P.2d 624].) It was therefore incumbent upon the trial court to determine, in the setting of these undisputed facts, whether Loo had a duty to warn Koepke. Our review of the trial 1451*1451 court's determination, as the review of a question of law, is a "de novo" or independent review. (Eisenberg et al., Cal. Practice Guide: Civil Appeals & Writs 1 (The Rutter Group 1992) ¶¶ 8.1-8.3; 6 Witkin, supra, § 748, pp. 83-86.)
The determination of the existence of a duty involves more than simply the establishment of the likelihood of harm to a third person if the actor fails to measure up to a standard of reasonable conduct. As we said in Marois v. Royal Investigation & Patrol, Inc. (1984) 162 Cal. App.3d 193, 198 [208 Cal. Rptr. 384], considerations of policy "on occasion lead courts to refuse to impose liability even when the plaintiff's injury was caused by the defendant's failure to act reasonably." (Italics omitted.) (5) An excellent explanation of "duty" in the negligence context is contained in the famous footnote 6 in Ballard v. Uribe, supra, which deserves quotation at length: "`[D]uty' is not an immutable fact of nature `"but only an expression of the sum total of those considerations of policy which lead the law to say that the particular plaintiff is entitled to protection."' (Dillon v. Legg (1968) 68 Cal.2d 728, 734 [69 Cal. Rptr. 72, 441 P.2d 912, 29 A.L.R.3d 1316] [quoting Prosser, Law of Torts (3d ed. 1964) pp. 332, 333].) In California, the general rule is that all persons have a duty `"to use ordinary care to prevent others being injured as the result of their conduct...."' (Rowland v. Christian (1968) 69 Cal.2d 108, 112 [70 Cal. Rptr. 97, 443 P.2d 561, 32 A.L.R.3d 496]; Civ. Code, § 1714.) Rowland enumerates a number of considerations, however, that have been taken into account by courts in various contexts to determine whether a departure from the general rule is appropriate: `the major [considerations] are the foreseeability of harm to the plaintiff, the degree of certainty that the plaintiff suffered injury, the closeness of the connection between the defendant's conduct and the injury suffered, the moral blame attached to the defendant's conduct, the policy of preventing future harm, the extent of the burden to the defendant and consequences to the community of imposing a duty to exercise care with resulting liability for breach, and the availability, cost, and prevalence of insurance for the risk involved.'" (Ballard v. Uribe, supra, 41 Cal.3d. at pp. 572, 573, fn. 6, italics added by Ballard.)
While, as noted, one must always use "ordinary care" so as to avoid "injury ... to another" (Civ. Code, § 1714), the common law establishes a different rule in terms of the control of others. (6) As a general rule, "... one person [owes] no duty to control the conduct of another [citations], nor to warn those endangered by such conduct...." (Tarasoff v. Regents of University of California (1976) 17 Cal.3d 425, 435 [131 Cal. Rptr. 14, 551 P.2d 334, 83 A.L.R.3d 1166], fn. omitted.) The creation of a duty, therefore, must rest upon some special circumstance warranting the imposition of a duty. Prosser and Keeton, supra, at section 56, page 373 et seq. 1452*1452 enumerate a number of special circumstances or "special relations" which give rise to a duty — such as the obligations of common carriers toward their passengers, those of innkeepers to their guests, shopkeepers to their business invitees. Where an actor's negligence puts a third party in danger a duty may arise to assist, or to warn. While there may be no duty to assist an unrelated person in peril, once such assistance has been undertaken it must be carried out with reasonable care. Thus, the priest and the Levite may walk by the injured traveler with impunity, but the good Samaritan who stops to aid must do so carefully. (See Williams v. State of California (1983) 34 Cal.3d 18, 23 [192 Cal. Rptr. 233, 664 P.2d 137]; Denton v. City of Fullerton (1991) 233 Cal. App.3d 1636, 1640 [285 Cal. Rptr. 297].)
(4b) In measuring Loo's potential duties we could look for a "special relationship" in terms of either the Loo-Logan or the Loo-Koepke relationship.[2] We reject with little discussion the concept that the Loo-Logan relationship gave rise to a duty to warn Koepke. Since Logan's actions were in no way related to his employment by Loo, the employer-employee relationship which existed between them cannot give rise to a duty. The fact that Loo was a past lover of Logan surely can be no basis for a continuing duty. While casual sexual relationships may not be regarded as keystones of current societal value, they nevertheless have their obvious advantages. One of them is the potential of termination of the relationship without regard to consequences. We would not want to write an opinion imposing on excohabitants a continuing obligation of control of the conduct of discarded lovers. Loo's undertaking to assist Logan in his rehabilitation, by paying for his psychiatrist and urging his attendance at Alcoholics Anonymous, may evidence some sort of continuing concern for Logan but, as we discuss below, would not have imposed an obligation upon Loo in terms of duty to Koepke or Logan.
We turn, then, to an examination of the special relationship between Loo and Koepke. They had, in fact, no relationship (other than the status of serial paramour and ultimate rejector of the alcoholic and aberrant Logan). That Loo attempted to counsel Logan and persuade him to attend Alcoholics Anonymous and undergo a course of psychiatric treatment cannot be the basis of an obligation to Koepke. It can be argued that Loo, having taken possession of Logan's gun, had a duty not to return the gun to Logan. This 1453*1453 contention was made in the pleadings but not seriously pursued in the summary judgment proceedings, and is not argued on appeal.[3]
The aspect of Loo's activities which can best be argued as creative of a special relationship was her indirect warning to Koepke in February, advising that Logan was coming to assault her, followed by the later advice that Logan had given up his gun and was no longer a danger. Koepke contends that having undertaken this course of counseling it was incumbent upon Loo to advise Koepke when the status of Logan's gun possession changed — to advise that he again might be dangerous.
An attempt to apply the several public policy considerations set forth in Rowland v. Christian (quoted above in Ballard v. Uribe) does not provide a ready answer to the question of the existence of a duty in this case. While there may be practical foreseeability of harm if one fails to alert another of a threat to attack, there usually exists no substantial degree of certainty that the attack will be carried out or that the threatened party will suffer injury (i.e., the predictability of Logan's behavior in this case is at best questionable). Insurance coverage for this sort of risk is certainly unusual; this is not the sort of risk ordinarily contemplated by either the insured or the insurer. Since Loo had no typically definable relationship to Koepke, it is difficult to label her failure to warn as morally blameworthy; and the consequences to the community of imposing this sort of duty on people seem of doubtful benefit. On the other hand, the policy of preventing future harm favors imposition of a duty, and the burden on the defendant Loo to have made a brief telephone call to Koepke seems very minor.
We look to precedent for assistance in making this policy decision, and find none directly in point. There are, however, several lines of cases which shed light on an appropriate approach to the problem. Most easily understood are those cases which impose a duty to warn persons in peril when the actor has done something to cause the imperiled person to rely on the future care of the actor, and in which the actor is in a position of peculiar authority or knowledge such as to make the performance of this duty to warn reasonable.
Illustrative of this situation is Johnson v. State of California (1968) 69 Cal.2d 782 [73 Cal. Rptr. 240, 447 P.2d 352]. The plaintiff in this case was a foster parent who took in a juvenile upon reference from the Youth Authority. After the plaintiff was attacked and injured by the juvenile, the state was 1454*1454 found negligent in placing the child in her care without warning of the child's "homicidal tendencies, and a background of violence and cruelty towards both animals and humans." (Id. at p. 784.) There is a duty, the Supreme Court stated, "upon those who create a foreseeable peril, not readily discoverable by endangered persons, to warn them of such potential peril." (Id. at p. 786.)
A similar ruling imposing a duty upon governmental authority which undertakes a relationship putting a citizen in danger is found in Carpenter v. City of Los Angeles (1991) 230 Cal. App.3d 923 [281 Cal. Rptr. 500]. The plaintiff in this case was a prosecution witness who had been personally threatened by the criminal defendant. He was advised by the prosecutor's investigator that the criminal was a small-time crook who posed no threat. The investigator later learned that the criminal defendant was attempting to arrange a "hit" on the plaintiff, but took no steps to warn the plaintiff. This failure to warn was held negligence when the plaintiff was subsequently injured by an unknown assailant, who presumably was the "hit" man retained by the criminal defendant. The court held that "... appellant, as a witness in a criminal prosecution who had been assured that the defendant posed no real danger to him, enjoyed a special relationship with the City, through its police department, such that the City owed appellant a duty of care, which required it to warn appellant about [the criminal accused's] subsequent threat to appellant's life." (Id. at p. 931.)
A similar conclusion was reached in Wallace v. City of Los Angeles (1993) 12 Cal. App.4th 1385 [16 Cal. Rptr.2d 113], where the police failed to warn a person they had enlisted as a witness to a crime that she was in danger because of known threats from the criminal.
To be distinguished from this line of cases is a parallel series of cases involving failure by police to protect citizens, in which the police were found not to have a duty because no action was taken which would have caused the citizen to place any special reliance upon police protection. In Davidson v. City of Westminster (1982) 32 Cal.3d 197 [185 Cal. Rptr. 252, 649 P.2d 894], the fact that police officers were watching a laundromat for the purpose of apprehending the perpetrator of assaults did not impose a duty to warn the plaintiff user of the laundromat. In Denton v. City of Fullerton (1991) 233 Cal. App.3d 1636 [285 Cal. Rptr. 297], a police crime investigation revealed that an assailant in an apartment complex laundry room had entered a certain apartment, but the police found the apartment locked and obtained no response to the doorbell. The police were held not to have a duty to locate and warn the occupant of the apartment, who was assaulted by the criminal in her apartment upon her return home. The key factor in Denton, as 1455*1455 in other similar cases, appears to be that the police had done nothing to cause special reliance by the plaintiff upon any police warning.
Yet another similar case is Thompson v. County of Alameda (1980) 27 Cal.3d 741 [167 Cal. Rptr. 70, 614 P.2d 728, 12 A.L.R.4th 701]. There the county was found to have no duty to warn unidentified neighbors of the release of a dangerous juvenile to the custody of his mother. The court was concerned about the detriment to parole and probation programs which might result from the imposition of such a generalized duty, and noted that the danger was evidenced only by "nonspecific threats of harm directed at nonspecific victims." (Id. at p. 754, italics in original.)
These cases involving the potential obligation of governmental entities to warn citizens seem not to control the resolution of the duty issue in this case. On the one hand, there is reluctance to impose broad and undefined duties upon police or other governmental authorities, the concern being that to do so would unduly burden those who perform in areas of acknowledged difficulty of decisionmaking and inability to gain complete control of circumstances. On the other hand, such authority by its nature is more competent to determine when a warning is necessary than is the ordinary citizen, and when the victim has cause to rely upon the authority's protection such reliance is found protectible. Neither factor is present in our case. Loo lacked training and skill in identifying danger or giving warnings. Further, although, as we discuss below, Koepke may have had an arguable basis of reliance, Loo was in no position to assure Koepke of any concrete protection from Logan's potential attacks.
The key in the police cases seems to be the identification of a particular victim who has cause to rely specially upon the police. There are cases, however, which impose a duty without this factor. The most important of these is Tarasoff v. Regents of University of California, supra, 17 Cal.3d 425. The acting defendant in this case was a psychologist employed by the hospital of the University of California. The psychologist's patient revealed an intent to murder the victim. When the patient was released from custody the psychologist, knowing of this threat and believing the patient to be dangerous, advised the local police but failed to warn the victim or her parents. Following the victim's murder, the psychologist was held to have breached a duty of care to the parents. "When a therapist determines, or pursuant to the standards of his profession should determine, that his patient presents a serious danger of violence to another, he incurs an obligation to use reasonable care to protect the intended victim against such danger. The discharge of this duty may require the therapist ... to warn the intended victim or others likely to apprise the victim of the danger, to notify the 1456*1456 police, or to take whatever other steps are reasonably necessary under the circumstances." (Id. at p. 431.)
It is to be noted that in Tarasoff the identity of the imperiled victim was known to the actor, but neither the victim nor her parents were in any posture of reliance upon the psychologist to act in their behalf. The factor of reliance, seemingly important in the police cases, is missing. A similar yet even extended concept of liability is set forth in Myers v. Quesenberry (1983) 144 Cal. App.3d 888 [193 Cal. Rptr. 733]. There a doctor was found to have breached a duty to advise a disabled patient not to drive her car. When the patient, while driving with the doctor's blessing, caused an accident and damage to third parties the doctor was found liable to the third parties. Apparently recognizing the difficulty of imposing a duty upon the actor for the benefit of unknown and unidentifiable persons, the court stated that "[t]he question of negligence liability is more accurately analyzed when the word `duty' is eliminated, with the focus solely on the issue of whether liability should be imposed." (Id. at p. 891.) The court then focused on the question of foreseeability, which of course in some contexts is a question of fact for the jury. (Id. at p. 892.) Obviously a reasonable jury could find that a doctor who permits a patient to drive a car when physically unable to do so should foresee injury to third parties. The court thus deftly dodged the issue of duty, identifying the problem as a matter of proximate cause, which of course could not be decided on summary judgment.
The aspect of Tarasoff and Myers we find interesting is that both defendants were health care practitioners. Quoting from Fleming and Maximov, The Patient or His Victim: The Therapist's Dilemma (1974) 62 Cal.L.Rev. 1025, 1030-1031, the Tarasoff court stated, "`... there now seems to be sufficient authority to support the conclusion that by entering into a doctor-patient relationship the therapist becomes sufficiently involved to assume some responsibility for the safety, not only of the patient himself, but also of any third person whom the doctor knows to be threatened by the patient.'" (Tarasoff, supra, 17 Cal.3d at p. 437.) Thus, it appears that professionals who undertake the care and treatment of patients who may pose a danger to third parties have an obligation to take steps to control the danger, even though the identity of the third parties may not be known.
Juxtaposed against this authority is Nally v. Grace Community Church (1988) 47 Cal.3d 278 [253 Cal. Rptr. 97, 763 P.2d 948], in which a church counselor was found not to have a duty to the parents of a counselee who committed suicide. Emphasizing the public policy considerations favoring restraint in the imposition of duties to nonprofessionals, the court stated: "Furthermore, extending liability to voluntary, noncommercial and noncustodial relationships is contrary to the trend in the Legislature to encourage private assistance efforts." (Id. at p. 298.)
1457*1457 We believe that these three cases (Tarasoff, Myers, and Nally) suggest that while professionals may have a duty to warn or take precautions to prevent injury to known, or even unknown, victims of their dangerous patients, this duty is based upon special professional expertise and is not extended to nonprofessionals attempting to assist friends or subjects with problems. Hence, even though Loo undertook significant efforts to assist Logan in his rehabilitation, by paying for his psychiatrist and convincing him to attend Alcoholics Anonymous, as a nonprofessional volunteer she should not be held to have assumed a duty of continued assistance, with respect either to Logan or to Koepke.
Having considered these somewhat peripheral authorities, we ask what conclusion can be reached concerning Loo's duty to Koepke in this case. The question might be posed in the abstract as follows: When an unrelated actor, knowing of risk to a third party because of the dangerous propensities of a tortfeasor, warns the third party of the danger and takes some steps to reduce the same, and the circumstance of risk is in fact reduced, is the actor thereafter under a duty to warn the third party when the circumstances change resulting in a resurrection of the dangerous condition? Put another way, does the voluntary assistance of a person in danger by an unrelated person impose on the assisting person any continuing obligation of continued assistance?
We are convinced that the answer to the refinely stated issue above is, in general, no. We are persuaded by such cases as Nally v. Grace Community Church, supra, 47 Cal.3d 278 and Bill v. Superior Court (1982) 137 Cal. App.3d 1002 [187 Cal. Rptr. 625] that strong public policy favors the encouragement of voluntary acts of assistance, by precluding the imposition of undefined and indefinite tag-on obligations as a consequence of the voluntarism. We have here no aspect of professional or governmental control such as to suggest a duty greater than might be imposed on the ordinary person (as in Tarasoff, where the status of psychologist elevates potential duty, or in Johnson, where the Youth Authority has special knowledge and access to information). Loo and Koepke were persons unrelated in any practical or traditional manner. Had Loo refused any communication with Koepke, from the start of the affair, she clearly could not be held responsible for the ultimate injury. When Loo volunteered information, originally in the form of a warning and later with the advice that the danger had subsided, did she thereby undertake to provide future warnings if and when circumstances changed? To impose such burden on unrelated persons with no familial, commercial, agency or other relationship would be, in our opinion, contrary to public policy.
1458*1458 There is one important factor in this case which appears in none of the authorities reviewed above. While Koepke and Logan were not married, their dispute was essentially a domestic dispute. Not only in law enforcement circles, but indeed to all people today, it is well known that domestic disputes are common, they are often vexatious and distressful not only to those parties to the dispute, but also to their friends and associates, and it is not uncommon that they lead to violence. The friends and associates of those involved in a domestic dispute, particularly one of this kind which results in a breakup of the relationship, commonly attempt to be of some assistance to one or both of the distressed parties. Whether such assistance is well-advised or even in the main useful is beside the point: Society, we believe, favors the attempt at such help. We should not dissuade people from trying to help those in domestic distress by fastening upon them, like Brer Rabbit to the tar baby, the obligation of continued tries just because they made one effort to assist.
For a person in Loo's situation there theoretically may be any number of reasons for withdrawing from contact with the participants in the Logan-Koepke confrontation. Warnings, advice and other communications from nonprofessionals in such situations are fraught with the danger of miscommunication, misunderstanding, and the very real possibility of diverting domestic venom from the parties in dispute to the volunteer. It is an ordinary human reaction when presented with a violent dispute between two friends to not want to "get involved." We should not prevent one from disinvolving herself because of a temporary and voluntary involvement. It can be argued, of course, that by reason of Loo's advice that she possessed Logan's gun, Koepke reasonably became reliant upon her for any new information to the contrary. We believe, however, that the circumstance does not support this as a reasonable conclusion. Loo's only action supporting any continuing obligation to act was a fleeting communication designed to assist in domestic relations. Even though this communication related to what might be thought a very important matter, it would be unreasonable for the beneficiary of that service to expect that the person volunteering such information had undertaken any continuing obligation to warn.
Accordingly, we find that the facts of this case imposed no duty upon Loo to take any further action to communicate with Koepke, even though Loo became aware of a change in circumstances which might cause peril to Koepke. Therefore, having no duty, Loo's failure to warn Koepke was not negligence, even though Loo might reasonably be found to have anticipated possible peril to Koepke when Logan retook possession of his gun.
Comments
JR Harris
Fri, 12/28/2012 - 15:07
Permalink
Please note. the entities are not counselors AA members are
Please note. the entities you are referring too in the above post are not counselors, AA members are different and are acting as a non-licensed "substance abuse counselors" by their IRS Tax Form 990 at the corporate level at the Interchurch Center in New York, State Intergroups and the groups below them. This paper trail can be easily followed providing liability and any "members" of these groups can be held responsible, including the governing "non-profit corporation" that houses, promotes and enables them to act this way. AA members have absolutely no legal standing... they are acting as concelors and should be held to the same standards as well as the corporate liability they present at many levels.
Source:https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK64424/
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
Pennywise
Fri, 12/28/2012 - 15:49
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Not according to the 7th
Not according to the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals:
From United States v. Schwensow, 151 F.3d 650, 656-57 (7th Cir.1998)
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
Pennywise
Fri, 12/28/2012 - 16:26
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Also, here is AAWS's Form 990
Also, here is AAWS's Form 990: http://990s.foundationcenter.org/990_pdf_archive/131/131679617/131679617...
Here is the GSB's: http://990s.foundationcenter.org/990_pdf_archive/237/237282071/237282071...
I did a quick search, and nowhere does the word "counselors" appear in the documents (not that an IRS classification for tax purposes would be dispositive of liablity for tort purposes).
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
JR Harris
Fri, 12/28/2012 - 16:50
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What does SUBSTANCE ABUSE DEPENDENCY, PREVENTION & TREATMENT
What does an IRS Registered SUBSTANCE ABUSE DEPENDENCY, PREVENTION & TREATMENT organization use for its " SUBSTANCE ABUSE DEPENDENCY, PREVENTION & TREATMENT"workers? Does Hazelden use the word "counselors" on its Tax Forms? The Hazelden Foundation and Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc are defined by the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) of the United States Government as the same exact type of organizations......... It doesn't matter what terminology AAWS uses on its 990, it depends how the US Governement classifies them, which they both are classified as "SUBSTANCE ABUSE DEPENDENCY, PREVENTION & TREATMENT."
ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS WORLD SERVICES INC
475 RIVERSIDE DRIVE
NEW YORK, NY 10115-0002
EIN: 131679617
Ruling Date: 08/1963
NTEE: F200 - SUBSTANCE ABUSE DEPENDENCY, PREVENTION & TREATMENT
ERI NTEE: F20 - SUBSTANCE ABUSE DEPENDENCY, PREVENTION & TREATMENT
Source: http://www.eri-nonprofit-salaries.com/index.cfm?FuseAction=NPO.Summary&E...
HAZELDEN FOUNDATION
PO BOX 11
CENTER CITY, MN 55012-0011
EIN: 410682405
Ruling Date: 07/1950
NTEE: F200 - SUBSTANCE ABUSE DEPENDENCY, PREVENTION & TREATMENT
ERI NTEE: F20 - SUBSTANCE ABUSE DEPENDENCY, PREVENTION & TREATMENT
Source: http://www.eri-nonprofit-salaries.com/index.cfm?FuseAction=NPO.Summary&E...
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
Pennywise
Fri, 12/28/2012 - 17:07
Permalink
It means that the purpose of
It means that the purpose of the organization is to aid in substance abuse dependency, prevention, and treatment. That is not the same as saying that AA itself offers medical treatment. See, the question is not going to be how AA is classified by the IRS for tax purposes; the question would be what AA actually does for purposes of tort liability. Analogously, Doctor "A" might publish an article on cancer research that Doctor "B" uses when formulating treatment for Patient "Y". If working for a foundation or something, Doctor "A"'s article might qualify for tax purposes as "cancer treatment" (or something similar). This would in no way create a doctor-patient relationship between Doctor "A" and Patient "Y", nor could it be said that Doctor "A" treated Patient "Y".
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
JR Harris
Fri, 12/28/2012 - 17:19
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Does Hazelden "prescribe" Alcohoilics Anonymous(12 Step) therapy
Does Hazelden "prescribe" Alcohoilics Anonymous(12 Step) therapy to treat the Spiritual malady of Alcoholism? Does Alcoholics Anonymous practice 12 Step therapy on all who pass through their doors? Is 12 Step Therapy being used to for "SUBSTANCE ABUSE DEPENDENCY, PREVENTION & TREATMENT?" Just because the relationship hasn't been made in court YET, doesn't mean that it won't.
If Adam Lanza of the Sandy Hook School Shooting was the person in the article you note, would the consensus be the same? I think not, I think that the people that allowed it would be in jail (probably for their own protection at first). But just like the Trayvon Martin shooting in Florida by the "VOLUNTEER" George Zimmerman who shoot and killed a kid because he thought he had the right to do it, things change. The stand your ground law in Florida has been used many times, but it is being re-thought right now and Zimmerman is in big trouble (If you remember the scum was let go for a few days until public opinion stepped in to right that wrong). It only takes a few cases and publicity to change unjust laws and these incidents are gaining critical mass at this time.
AA and the scum it produces who think they can get away with the garbage they are getting away with will be brought to justice in the future. It just tales enough people to speak up and not give the old excuse that that is the way it has always been. Rosa Parks was not the first black person to try and sit at the front of the bus, but she made a statement and that is why black people can sit anywhere they want on a bus today.
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
Pennywise
Fri, 12/28/2012 - 17:17
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NTEE Codes
http://www.nccsdataweb.urban.org/PubApps/nteeSearch.php?returnElement=&p...
F20 - Substance Abuse Dependency, Prevention & Treatment
Organizations that provide preventive, diagnostic and inpatient, outpatient and residential treatment services as well as transitional support for people who have a physical and/or psychological dependency on alcohol and/or drugs. Use this code for organizations that provide both substance abuse prevention and treatment services.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
JR Harris
Fri, 12/28/2012 - 17:26
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"both substance abuse prevention and treatment services" does
"both substance abuse prevention and treatment services" does not say "OR" it says "BOTH" which means treatment is being applied. Again, who applies "treatment" to someone diagnosed as an Alcohol or Drug Dependent person? I'll even give you a list to pick from:
Counselor
Therapist
Psychiatrist
Unlicensed and poorly trained AA member who thinks they know more than the above.
AAWS, GSO, Intergroups and Groups that are classified all the same are liable as well as the "volunteers" they support, it just takes a few people like Rosa Parks saying they aren't going to the back of the bus anymore......
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
Pennywise
Fri, 12/28/2012 - 17:36
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Do you really think a court
Do you really think a court will rule that way?
See, here is your argument:
Once an alcoholic crawls into an AA meeting, he thereby assumes special legal duties typically assigned only to trained, practicing professionals. Hence, before going to AA, the alcoholic would be wise to first become abreast in the law and the duties it will impose upon him by virtue of his AA membership. This would drastically discourage alcoholics from going to AA in the first place, which almost any court would hold contrary to public policy. I can't imagine that any court would uphold that reasoning.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
JR Harris
Fri, 12/28/2012 - 18:00
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Simply, yes. I understand what you are saying but it is self
Simply, yes. I understand what you are saying but it is self defeating to change for the good. The KKK is a secret organization that holds weird rituals just like AA. I think that AA members should be held to the same standards as AA members or even Mafia members who all have the same "anonymity" of their groups to hide behind.
You do realize that Little Rock Central High School in 1957 was segregated by state courts of law and black people were not allowed to attend there. That was changed by The U.S. Supreme Court issued its historic Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka, Kansas, 347 U.S. 483, on May 17, 1954. saying segregation was not legal. Many people wrote articles saying that it was ridiculous to even think of segregating the school and they quotes case law from that state, just like you are doing with the issues being brought up about the murders, rapes, etc.... in AA. President Eisenhower ended up calling in the National Guard to protect the 9 black children who were enrolled in the school in 1957.
Right now India is having major problems with gang rape of women that many of the people of that country consider second class citizens. Riots are hitting the streets in protest and targeting the people that believe and promote the second class status of women in that country. This will bring change and I don't think anyone would dare to write anything about women being subservient at this point. It is causing change.
As a side note, this case you are writing about also has a Religious twist to it because it started in a Religious group. AA claims it is not Religious (true I claim it is, but if they don't want that protection, so be it). Find a case law that doesn't have any religious overtones if you want to compare it to AA.
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
Pennywise
Fri, 12/28/2012 - 18:18
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How are the case I cited in
How are the cases I cited in this thread related to religion?
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
JR Harris
Fri, 12/28/2012 - 18:28
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Nally v. Grace Community Church was used as case law in the case
Nally v. Grace Community Church was used as case law in the case. You even highlighted it. Apples and Oranges, if AA isn't Religious which it claims it is not, anything to do with Religion has to be excluded. Of course I think that AA is a cult not a Religion, but one mans cult is another mans Religion. It just takes one lawyer to question something like this and open up the Pandora box again and have AA deemed Religious (I know it already has,but like the 1954 segregation of Little Rock Arkansas it was not enforced until 1957). AA claims it isn't Religious, so be it and use it against them on cases where they try and use Religious groups as case law. Put their noses to the fire until it starts to blister.
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
Pennywise
Fri, 12/28/2012 - 18:43
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Well, Nelly is a case cited
Well, Nelly is a case cited within a case I cited. The case I cited supporting the idea that there is no duty to warn is not religious, nor was the case holding that AA volunteers are not counselors or therapists. I'm afraid you are asking too much by asking for cases that do not contain any internal citations to cases involving religion.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
JR Harris
Fri, 12/28/2012 - 18:51
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The Nelly case shouldn't have been allowed in the preceding if
The Nelly case shouldn't have been allowed in the preceding since Religion has a separate legal protection. That is all that I am saying. The Karla Brada case has noting to do with Religion (besides the fact she fell into a Religious and dangerous cult) because AA says it isn't Religious. Due to that fact, case law containing rulings of Religious organizations should not be used.
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
Pennywise
Fri, 12/28/2012 - 19:01
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Why? Religion was not even
Why? Religion was not even central to the ruling.
http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=4089993711810669382&q=alcoho...
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
FrybreadSam (not verified)
Fri, 12/28/2012 - 15:58
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I could not understand this,
I think Loo should have told K that she gave Logan back his gun, and not expressed an opinion regarding his continued interest or none. But I am not sure she has any legal obligation to do it. Once a person pulls a piece on you, I think it would be over for me and I'd get the Tro.
El Oso
Fri, 12/28/2012 - 17:12
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Doesn't make sense J R
If all AA members are counsellors who are they counselling ?? And who - in your view - is an AA member?
"And if somebody told you God is on your side. I was told the very same thing So you know somebody lied." [Big Wind - Sonny Terry and Brownie McGhee]
El Oso
JR Harris
Fri, 12/28/2012 - 18:18
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I have asked that before on this forum, no one could answer
I have asked that before on this forum, no one could answer who is an AA member except to say you are an AA member if you say you are one. If you can find an answer how to identify an AA member, please give one.
As for who is acting as a counselor or not that is an easy one. Hazelden teaches the 12 Steps as a treatment for Alcoholism and Addiction. If someone takes those same 12 Steps and tries to interpret them to another person they are acting as a counselor (I know, you going to use the they don't have to follow the suggestions and they can take what they want and leave the rest loophole of the cult). if Hazelden "prescribes" AA as after treatment (which most Rehabs do) they they are sending their clients to untrained therapists, plain and simple. I also realize that the cult of AA also says if you have a bad experience go to another group or find another Sponsor. First off, if a medical doctor is prescribing AA as an after treatment it is up to them to make sure there prescription is of quality. Just like if they prescribe penicillin, there is the expectation that if you go to a pharmacy with that prescription it is going to be the correct amount and not given to you by an untrained and unlicensed pharmacist. If you don't get the right prescription you sue the pharmacy and if the physician sent you there knowing they give bad prescriptions, they are liable also.
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
Pennywise
Fri, 12/28/2012 - 18:25
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So where does that leave free
So where does that leave free speech? Where would you draw the line about what a person can say without incurring liability? What about Freedom of Association? No offense, J.R., I love you. But it seems you basically want to make it so that there is really no way an AA group can exist without subjecting itself to so much liability that most groups would be forced to shut up and/or disband. That's not the American way.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
Pennywise
Sat, 12/29/2012 - 08:46
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From the United States
From the United States Supreme Court in National Association for the Advancement of Colored People v. Claiborne Hardware Co., 458 U. S. 886, 920 (1982):
This quote is relevant because you basically want to use the law to make it so that everyone in an AA group is liable as a "counselor," thereby stifling the freedom of AA members to freely associate with each other.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
JR Harris
Fri, 12/28/2012 - 19:11
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No, actually I am not. I consider the 12 Steps a medical
No, actually I am not. I consider the 12 Steps a medical prescription that is being dispensed by untrained, unqualified personnel by the use of the "Big Book", "12 &12" and Hazelden literature. AA is prescribed as aftercare from Rehabs and Doctors as a "quick and easy fix" that they charge a lot of money for.
A good analogy would be that it is just like a doctor charging someone big bucks with a stomach ache to take some antacid and go to a secret anonymous fellowship performing weird rituals in church basement who use the Physicians Desk Reference (PDR) instead of the "Big Book" to study from. Who knows what the "study groups" of a PDR cult would come up with? If the person dies in aftercare, they can just say that it was the disease that killed them instead of one of the "gurus" (acting as a medical professional because the doctor has prescribed them as aftercare). Same difference, in both cases AA and the PDR cult the doctor is sending the patient to something that is supposed to help them, but both groups are untrained and very dangerous.
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
Pennywise
Fri, 12/28/2012 - 22:29
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Not the same at all. In your
Not the same at all. In your analogy, it the doctor who is practicing medicine and is potentially liable; not the fellowship. In America, people have a constitutional right to form little circles, perform quasi-religious rituals, and talk about God and staying sober without risking being held to a heightened standard of liablity.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
JR Harris
Sat, 12/29/2012 - 07:57
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Actually that is an incorrect assumption and not on target of
Actually that is an incorrect assumption and not on target of the problem. People do have the right to gather and talk about issues, in the US that is a fundamental right which can be proved by the existence of the White Aryan or Skinhead movements which are still active today. Many of the high level members of the past have been brought to justice because they enabled the "members" (who enjoy the same "protections" as AA members) to do atrocities and hide in the movement they started.
You have to remember that AA says that it is Spiritual and not Religious and they don't pray to a "god" they call it a "higher power" that can be "THE GROUP" and it is that fallacy that I believe will eventually be their downfall. If you use "THE GROUP" as a higher power which is pushed upon members and "THE GROUP" consensus causes a death, they are liable. People can deny the responsibility of "THE GROUP" all they want. The Mafia, which is another secret group denies it all of the time, but they are still under the watchful eyes of many people and brought to justice for their "suggestions" to "THE GROUP" that end in death, rape and financial scams.
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
FrybreadSam (not verified)
Sat, 12/29/2012 - 08:12
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If seems to me that you are
If seems to me that you are going to extreme points for what will probably be decided to have been a personal choice.
JR Harris
Sat, 12/29/2012 - 09:19
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True, but they are extreme points that AA makes the papers every
True, but they are extreme points that AA makes the papers everyday with an increasing
frequency. I am not saying all AA members are bad, but I am saying that the around 10% of the
ones that make the news everyday need to be curtailed. Many people don't come forward because
they know they will be attacked and demeaned by the slogans of AA and the victims will be made
the problem, not the perpetrators.
Even the worst of the cults were at one time thought to be good by many people. The worst mass
suicide in history, the peoples Temple of Jim Jones was one of them. The California Mayor
George Moscone and Jim Jones even met Walter Mondale at SFO and Willie Brown attributed
Moscone's electoral victory to Jones. Jones delivered votes for Jerry Brown's campaign for
governor. As governor, Brown ordered the Temple's records removed from San Francisco to
Sacramento just weeks after the Jonestown mass murder.
Do you blame the 909 Temple members of the Jones Town Massacre because they made a personal
choice? What about the ones shot with an M16 and forced to drink the koolaid?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonestown_massacre
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
Pennywise
Sat, 12/29/2012 - 09:51
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The answer would seem to be
The answer would seem to be to punish the people who commit the crimes. In the Karla Brada case, for example, we see lots of advocacy for suing AA groups and AAWS. Yet I have not read any advocacy asking the district attorney to pursue the death penalty for Eric Earle.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
FrybreadSam (not verified)
Sat, 12/29/2012 - 11:27
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Because Karla is just the
Because Karla is just the vehicle, Penny.
FrybreadSam (not verified)
Sat, 12/29/2012 - 11:13
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The key to me us what did she
The keys to me are what did she know, when did she know and what were her choices after that. I don't consider Jonestown and most of your other examples to be like at all. Face it, I can talk until i am blue, but people will do what they want.
FrybreadSam (not verified)
Sat, 12/29/2012 - 11:15
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The key to me us what did she
.
JR Harris
Sun, 12/30/2012 - 07:25
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So you want to blame the victim of all rapes and murders?
So you want to blame the victim of all rapes and murders because they stayed with the attacker? All domestic violence happens with someone they live or have lived with and you're saying it is their fault because they should have known better? In the Karla Brada case Eric Earle was arrested for domestic violence but the "fellowship" of the cult of Alcoholics Anonymous stepped in and talked Karla into getting him out.
It can be argued that AA is not involved because they are autonomous groups and specific members of the "group" enabled the actions under the battered wife syndrome plain ans simple. You can blame the victim all you want, but the fact is that AA is "TRAINING" unlicensed and untrained people to become "therapists" (or whatever other word you want to call them) and not taking any responsibility for it. That needs to change and they need to stop it due to the daily incidents that they have been causing. Go ahead and keep blaming the victim and tell them to look for their part in it and don't look for the root cause of the problem. In my opinion it is pretty sick to blame the victim, they even have a medical code for it.
Source:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battered_wife_syndrome
Alcoholics Anonymous need to quit playing doctor, plain and simple.
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
Pennywise
Sat, 12/29/2012 - 09:59
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Like it or not, people have a
Like it or not, people have a right to share life advice with each other, regardless of religion. I know you think they are practicing medicine, but I doubt any court is going to hold that. Otherwise, pretty much anyone could be hauled into court over any statement advising someone else what they should do. Under your theory, if we were neighbors talking in the backyard over the fence, you could sue me if I told you how you should handle your wife in an argument or whether you should allow your mother-in-law to move in. What you propose would be a very scary America indeed.
Also, as you have seen, courts are not that concerned with whether AA classifies itself as religion. Courts have looked beyond that to see the substance of what goes on at meetings and what is in the literature.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
Pennywise
Sat, 12/29/2012 - 08:32
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Duplicate
Duplicate
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
FrybreadSam (not verified)
Fri, 12/28/2012 - 19:13
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Isn't that what most of you
Isn't that what most of you want? For AA to disband? I think what you are saying is that people should stop sending money to the Karla fund.
Pennywise
Fri, 12/28/2012 - 19:42
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I don't want AA to be
I don't want AA to be forcibly disbanded. Like churches, I'd prefer people to just leave on their own. As to the Karla fund, if it is slam dunk case, why would she need funds at all? If AAWS is going to cut a check for millions of dollars, wouldn't the lawyer just take it on a 33% contingency fee instead? I'm sure you've seen the ads "If you don't win, you pay nothing!" The reason lawyers structure personal injury fees that way is because the lawyer typically makes way more by taking a percentage of the award than he would by charging an hourly or flat fee. This is esspecially so in million dollar wrongful death actions.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
Pennywise
Fri, 12/28/2012 - 19:55
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Of course, I really don't
Of course, I really don't know all the details of that case, so I shouldn't be presumptuous. For all I know the members of the group all helped the guy plan it out, in which case there would be liablity. And I could be completely wrong. For all I know maybe the plaintiffs will prevail. I doubt it, but it could happen.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
JR Harris
Fri, 12/28/2012 - 20:24
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I know one thing, if you don't try, it won't happen.
I know one thing, if you don't try, it won't happen. As for being a slam dunk case, that depends on a lot of different factors.I know Baldwin Research sued AA for $20 million and it was settled out of court. It also appears to have a non-disclosure clause on the final settlement. The only way to find out the particulars would be Jullian Assange and wikileaks, but he is having other problems at the time and he is exposing corruption he feels more important.
This case may fail, but it will just build on the next one because people are learning from it. The next one will be stronger and the next one even stronger. It only takes time and any journey always starts with the first step. If you don't take it, there will be no journey and no changes.
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
Pennywise
Fri, 12/28/2012 - 20:43
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That's true, J.R. Regardless
That's true, J.R. Regardless of whether anyone agrees with what I have posted here, I do think people can benefit from it. These are issues that need to be addressed head-on because you can be sure the other side will bring them up.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
FrybreadSam (not verified)
Fri, 12/28/2012 - 20:22
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I think her parents are being
I think her parents are being abused. If what you say is true, then where is the duty indeed. Additionally, she had enough on him in very short order to know he was dangerous, even if no one had said anything.
Pennywise
Fri, 12/28/2012 - 20:38
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Well, from what I have read,
Well, from what I have read, which may not be true, she did move in with the guy and even bailed him out of jail once. If true, that in itself likely overshadows any liablity on the part of AA members. Mainly, if she already knew about his violent ways, AA's failure to warn would be mute. But again, I don't have the facts.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
JR Harris
Fri, 12/28/2012 - 20:51
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Well I don't know the exact facts, but I understand the Sponsor
Well I don't know the exact facts, but I understand the Sponsor of Karla Brada (acting as an intermediary giving advice from the teachings of AA as a type of counselor, talked her into bailing him out) and that her murderer and her Sponsor knew each other from being in jail together. (I wrote about it and gave links to it on another post somewhere on the OP, I'll give you a link later) As as far as I am concerned AA (the group at the lowest level, then Intergroups and AAWS , GSO) enabled this to happen and allowed a dangerous situation to ferment.
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
FrybreadSam (not verified)
Fri, 12/28/2012 - 21:16
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Are you saying that Karla and
Are you saying that Karla and earle had the same sponsor? I see a lot in different places. They met and he moved into her home immediately. They were engaged. He beat her, charges were filed that she dropped, and then he kills her. All in 60 days.
Pennywise
Sat, 12/29/2012 - 10:18
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If so, then she knew he was
If so, then she knew he was violent, had a chance to leave, and chose not to. Since she was already on notice, this could mute any claim that steppers were negligent for failing to warn her. Her choice to remain with him is arguably a superseding event that breaks the chain of causation between the steppers' failure to warn and her injuries. After all, the whole basis for finding liablity in a failure to warn situation is that the injured person might have taken a different course of action had she been warned. Here, we see that she stuck with the creep even though she knew he was violent, thus showing that even if the steppers would have warned her about his violent past, it is unlikely that she would have altered her decision to remain with him.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
JR Harris
Sat, 12/29/2012 - 07:31
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Actually that would be blaming the victim and a false analogy
Actually that would be blaming the victim and a false analogy. Using the analogy you have suggested, if an organized secret society of people comprised of criminals recruited from jails and prisons all working independently and running there own con man scenarios protected each other through coercion it would still be illegal. Lets drop murder by rage for this example and say it was a financial scam. If the intended victim of the scam became aware of a possibility of a scam and "other" members of that secret society hiding in anonymity convinced the "victim" that just wasn't the case and the victim ended up being scammed because of it, they would all be liable in civil and tort law. It is commonly called "gang stalking" where the members of the secret society watch each others backs.
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
FrybreadSam (not verified)
Sat, 12/29/2012 - 08:14
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Doesn't seem to be any
.
FrybreadSam (not verified)
Sat, 12/29/2012 - 07:54
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Doesn't seem to be any
Doesn't seem to be any conspiracy to this. Just a woman with the wrong man, just as it happens in countless other domestic situations that don't have the AA connection. I also agree that it doesn't matter once you'be decided to stay. It's sad and tragic, but I think AA is going to prevail.
Pennywise
Sat, 12/29/2012 - 10:07
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Exactly. There is no evidence
Exactly. There is no evidence at all, at least that I know of, that the AA group conspired with this guy to commit a crime. Indeed, I do not think there is any evidence that he told them he was going to kill her. The only allegation is that the group knew he had a record in the past and did not tell her about it. There is no way they could have predicted the future, and when it comes to even licensed professionals, I think they are generally required to report only specific threats of future dangerousness--not loose speculation based on past offenses.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
FrybreadSam (not verified)
Fri, 12/28/2012 - 21:07
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I've tried to say that, but
I've tried to say that, but less effectively.
JR Harris
Fri, 12/28/2012 - 19:21
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I don't think AA should be allowed to operate. It isn't
I don't think AA should be allowed to operate. It isn't Religious, it isn't Spiritual, it is a ego driven demonic cult that should be disband. Yes, I am bringing everything together to make it impossible to operate. Unfortunately that can't happen overnight and it would be dangerous to try because the "brainwashed ones" would freak out with out being deprogrammed and may hurt themselves or someone else. AA needs to be disassembled piece by piece. It may morph into something good that may still be called AA, but it will be safer. I don't think you realize that the stories I write about are only a small percentage of the ones that show up on my spider map and many aren't in the US, just this site in mainly US and UK read. Also in the UK, AA is not mandated by a court of law (although if you read some on my posts you will see that that is changing slowly).
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
Pennywise
Fri, 12/28/2012 - 19:30
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And what of the Constitution?
And what of the Constitution? Do you not see that rights can be infringed by judicial rulings that piece together to make it practically impossible for people to associate with each other and share ideas?
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
JR Harris
Fri, 12/28/2012 - 20:01
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You mean the same constitution that provides for the separation
You mean the same constitution that provides for the separation of Church and State. The same judicial system that is made to uphold it that at times says AA is Religious and then mandates people to it? The same Constitution saying that we are all equal but segregation in the deep south was not banned until 1954 and it took the National Guard to enforce it years later? The same Constitution that didn't have a provision where women could vote until 1920 with the Nineteenth Amendment, which prohibited state or federal sex-based restrictions on voting?
In both segregation and women voting many articles were written quoting state law cases where they said it should not be changed. There was no freedom of speech infringement, but if people hadn't have complained and kept complaining black people would still be at the back of the bus and women would not be able to vote. The KKK is still active, but it has been retarded in the problems it causes, they have free speech, marches and even play in politics. many of the polices of the KKK were sanctioned by the court systems. The KKK is a fellowship of people who are still active and go to weird rituals just like AA, but if there members do any of the atrocities they used to be able to get away with now, not only are they arrested, but the organizers that enabled them. AA should be held to the same accountability.
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
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