So, here it is. Tell it like it is, peeps. I need to rest my hands now, but I'll be back with mine. I really want to hear people's stories. Maybe we can write a book together...
This is one of the top 3 reasons I left. Men did not care if I had a boyfriend or if I was married. They did not care if my husband was sitting right next to me. One man at my home group regularly harassed me sexually for three years, even though I did my best to stay away from him. Don't ask me why I didnt change meetings. It is not the responsibility of the woman being harassed to make it stop.
My sponsees got harassed, got knocked up, raped, coerced, and threatened. I knew of young women who were getting beat up by their AA Pacific Group boyfriends, and I knew of underage girls who were being harassed, stalked, and sexually manhandled by much older men. Men with significant sobriety time, sponsors, and commitments. Two of them have over 20 years "in the program."
I saw sexism run rampant. No one anywhere in AA that I can remember ever said anything about how sexist and backwards the BB was. No one wanted to change it. And, of course, due to this, men in the program adopted the ways of the BB. Women were regularly silenced or not listened to at business meetings. Women were treated like pieces of meat to be enjoyed by the men. I knew one man who ran his own AA sect, who has over 15 years of sobriety, who openly slept with other women while he was married. Then, when the wife finally got wise and divorced him, he immediately started banging a newcomer with less than 30 days of sobriety. He proposed marriage to her before she got 90 days. He has over 15 sponsees.
Have you ever considered reporting this to the police. It would take a lot of courage and could be fraught with danger. We've got a PG type group here in Plymouth. They are evil bastards and will blatantly and openly lie through their teeth to protect their own. So AA. I'm trying to contact anyone who has had bad experiences with them. I'm quite prepared to do all the front work, ie go to the police, arrange lawyers etc. I just want to get some truth in a court of law and see the whole house of lies come tumbling down.
My hope is to get just one criminal conviction and then we can open the floodgates for a class action civil case against individual AA members. Get damages awarded for people who have suffered abuse at the hands of AA. Any solicitor reading this who is interested in getting involved with a juicy publicity rich class action, get in touch.
Are you ready to talk to a reporter from a major News Network? Will these other women come out of the closet to finally speak up like the women in Boulder Colorado just did. Everyone needs to take off the anonymous Bullshit gloves and be seen and heard in our media.
PLease if you are ready then contact me at makeaasafer@gmail.com
"I left because I saw how Guyana and Waco ended. All cults go to hell in the end, and I don't want that ride."
Do you really think that being part of this cultish culture typified by hateful, spiteful rhetoric which is largely unsubstantiated by thoughtful process is a great improvement over A.A.?
I am definitely in action on this issue. If you want to know more about the movement to end these sorts of practices, check out stop13stepinaa.wordpress.com.
Someone may say that the sexual misconduct of which I speak "is not AA." I beg to differ. One instance of sexual misconduct in the rooms may be an anomaly. Two times may be a coincidence. But three times- that is a pattern. Four or more times? At that point, I firmly believe that it is a pattern firmly entrenched within the walls of the rooms at AA. And when the sexual misconduct is happening over and over again at different meetings in different areas, in different cities, with different types of people, it just becomes cult-like.
You seem to be having trouble differentiating between a program and a perp. Why did you return over and over? Do you live in Dry Gulch where there's only one A.A. meeting available per week? Honestly, I do not understand women who don't or won't fight back.
I would have told. We had men and women behaving inappropriately in some meetings, but I agree. You have to remember what is a program and what are people behaving badly. Something about personalities... But I also did that is bars, too. If your husband/boyfriend was behaving badly toward me, I would telll him off AND I would tell you... No one needs to buy into victimhood.
My comments on OPF represent my views only and do not represent those of AA.
"Someone may say that the sexual misconduct of which I speak "is not AA." I beg to differ. One instance of sexual misconduct in the rooms may be an anomaly. Two times may be a coincidence. But three times- that is a pattern. Four or more times? At that point, I firmly believe that it is a pattern firmly entrenched within the walls of the rooms at AA. And when the sexual misconduct is happening over and over again at different meetings in different areas, in different cities, with different types of people, it just becomes cult-like."
But who is the common denominator here? You are. Why did you even return after the first offense? What specific misconduct are you talking about here? A remark? Physical contact? What? Did you address the offense at the time? If not, why not? It would be good to know you're not a "hysterical female". I say this woman-to-woman. Don't stoop to making all women look ridiculous because someone said something offensive to you and you decided to scream "fire!", blaming an entire group of faultless people for it. Surely every single person at the meeting didn't lay a hand on you or call you a cunt like they do me here. Have you taken it upon yourself to represent every person who has been on the receiving end of sexual innuendo or unwelcome advances in an A.A. meeting? That's gonna take a shitpile of documentation, to weed out truth from fiction.
If someone has done something illegal to you, or something that you consider blatant enough to be considered overt sexual assault, get the law on it. But don't blame the school teacher in the corner of the meeting because some jerk came on to you. Get real. Assign blame where it belongs. And remember: no matter how hard you try to make people act the way you want them to, a dick is a dick, always and forever. They simply cannot be rehabbed.
marietta, are you seriously asking sciaa to find her part in the harassment. are you seriously suggesting that she makes all women look stupid. She has mearly called it as she found it. In addition I have never called you a profanity and I never will, cunts are usefull (something I doubt you are) as an a.a booster I would suggest you're more of an ankle (3 feet lower than a cunt)
p.s. my dick does not need to be rehabbed
I am not asking SCIAA to do anything except answer some questions. Harassment is a fact of daily life for many, many women in this country. If she hasn't the gumption to take on the jerks when the harassment happens then she is partially culpable for her own indelible impression of A.A., as if men acting like dicks is the full scope of what A.A. is about. Now, I have no doubt that istj04 and btnben and some of the other wild cards here will have great fun with this, and that makes them dicks that are just as offensive as any who may have populated any A.A. meetings.
Why must you lower yourself to the level of what this woman is complaining about in A.A.? You're no better than the rest. I have certainly been called a cunt on these forums, and for all your "clever" wordplay you are nothing more than the dicks in the sad tale from SCIAA.
Thanks for the supremely unsatisfying roll in the hay, knuckle dragger.
Doesn't that post just sum up what is fucked-up with steppism? Every instinct screams to protect people who are harassed, and what does our enlightened, open-minded, stepper do? Blame them. It really makes me feel physically sick that people like you exist Mariatte.
A waitress who spills water in your lap - even repeatedly - is not the restaurant. She is a clumsy individual. A medical assistant who walks away from a blood pressure machine in use is not the medical office - she is a forgetful or stressed individual. A teacher who loses his cool and cusses out his classroom of students is not the school - he is an overwrought instructor. Each of these can be viewed as agents of the larger groups they represent, and, yes, they do have the power to leave a negative impression, but they are not the sum total of the groups they personify. This is not A.A. bullshit. This is individual responsibility. At this time I don't view you as "the orange papers", or with the same disdain I do many of the other posters here, because I think you have actually given some thought to what you've written before you've posted it, and your thoughts are not exactly knee-jerk responses so far.
If sexual misconduct is permitted to occur repeatedly within one meeting, whose fault is it? The responsibility is on the shoulders of the members of the group/meeting to correct it. This does not call for an A.A. mandate, it calls for the offended persons to summon their common sense, step up and take action. Why allow it? It's like allowing a 3-year-old to smash things in his house - are you going to let him do it or are you going to put a stop to it? If this misconduct is a "pattern", then those who allowed it to develop into a pattern are responsible for their own distress over it.
If you were there, if you witnessed it and did nothing to stop it, how can you complain? And how can you blame A.A. for the unacceptable behaviors of some of its members? If you saw an A.A. member hitting on a woman in the grocery store parking lot, would you say, "A.A. is such bullshit! Look at him!"? If you immediately came to that evaluation of the situation, then I guess I'll have to rescind my comments about your being thoughtful and not expressing knee-jerk reactions.
We used to have a guy tell us that he would throw chairs and tables at meetings. I once told him that if you can't do it outside without repercussions, you shouldn't be able to do it in a room. I would call the police on someone that behaved in the way this woman describes. If I don't, I am a tactit part of the problem.
My comments on OPF represent my views only and do not represent those of AA.
This is only one of many reasons I left AA. I can't write them all at once, or I'd have a book on my hands lol. I guess that wouldn't be so bad, would it? I will talk later about these other reasons I left:
1. Lack of adequate leadership (my sponsors were crazy)
2. Cliques and sects within AA that are averse to any type of expressed individualism
3. Lack of acceptance of race, religion, manner of dress, disabilities, and medical conditions
4. AA's aversion to people expressing their intelligence, logical and reasoning abilities
5. The insistence by AAs with time that I spend more and more time within the organization
6. The bait-and-switch con game: all their literature insists that they are an idealized democratic "benign anarchy," but in reality they are a rigid self-enforced autocracy ruled by a set of 36 principles which cannot be broken lest a member risk being shunned or passive-aggressively ridiculed at group level by members of the group.
So you are looking for Utopia, then? Isn't the answer in your mind and soul and spine, and not in the behaviors of others? Why didn't you carry a weapon? If you didn't like the meetings why didn't you try to change them? How vulnerable did you allow yourself to be to what was unacceptable to you? And would suggesting that you go to another meeting really be out of line?
But I am glad that you said you "left." because there are others that seem to feel that you cannot leave AA. You just get up and go. I went to numerous groups in Myrtle Beach, and one sounds a bit as you describe. But it didn't bother me. Those are just people; the program is different and separate. I can work a program with my sponsor and not get caught up in minutia. We had everyone, gays, blak people, white, hispanic, upstanding, lowstanding... My experiences were totaly different and all I have to go on.
My comments on OPF represent my views only and do not represent those of AA.
Pepper spray is legal in many states in varying quantities. I wouldn't hesitate to use it in self defense. Of course, some women do not understand the difference between an asshole and a perpetrator - maybe the woman/women who left A.A. because of the inexcusable behavior of some of the men there (i.e., 13th stepping) are unable to make that distinction.
Marietta actually believes what she writes. FFS woman - if you're feeling threatened it makes no difference if it's by an asshole or a perpetrator. YOU NEED PSYCHIATRIC HELP.
If a woman feels threatened she needs psychiatric help?! Can you explain that? Or is this just another btnben sloppy post where you mix your pronouns to the point of incoherence?
Your powers of self-expression are infinitesimal. Do you actually think I care about the results? If I were concerned about what you think of me I'd have been gone long ago. The more you resist the more fun it is for me to catch you in your ignorance. Keep it up. Start a poll. Rage at the machine. Hang me in effigy. Like I give a shit.
You're not getting it are you Marietta? When you first came on here a lot of people got angry with you. Now we all just feel a bit sad for you. Calm down - there is more to life than hating people.
I speak only for myself. It's just that, reading the posts over the last few days, you seem to be getting more and more manic and regulars on here seem to be getting a bit worried about you. If you've got any little pills, now's a good time...lol
He had loads of disabilities going on,
was very ill in the first two years of his life..
times were tough
i had about 8 years of AA style "sobriety up",
no body rang ..not even once
nobody visited us at hospital
when i got to meetings to get my "support" i heard the usual dribble
"keep coming to meetings"
"pray about it"
"hand it over'
"at least your sober"
i simply realised that i was wasting my time with those people.
they didnt care for me as a human being in a tough situation
they just blurted slogans because they didnt know what else to say
it was easy to stop going..
Are you finding support within these forums for the life-altering situation you have been handed? Is your son's overall condition one that improves with time? A special needs child requires extraordinary parental measures, and the parent often lives with daily frustration, weariness, exhaustion. If you were looking to A.A. to fix that, I believe that was an unrealistic expectation. I understand how some meetings have cliques and the attendees can just pat one another on the back and utter slogans. But if one cares about the state of the meetings one attends, it then becomes a responsibility of that person to try to effect change and stir things up so that the message isn't lost behind self-congratulatory behaviors.
You clearly had your hands full and were not in a situation to be making changes in the meetings. I'm sorry no one responded to you on a level that was helpful. I don't believe it's the fault of A.A.; I think it's just a case of human/alcoholic deficiency.
OK, btnben and istj04, let the shredding begin, as if misogynists' opinions carry much weight on the topic.
My son died 9 years ago so i dont require support in that way anymore.
The point i make is that i found the programe to be totally exposed when the heat was on,
After being a hardout AAer for years,i was suddenly in need of help..and it just wasnt there.
Truth is doubts and dissapointments about my AA life had been building for quite some time
My sons birth was the straw that broke the AA camels back.
Your observations about parenting special needs children are correct,at least in my case.
the slogans were my least favourite part of being an AA member.They used to frustrate me and i never quite knew why..they seemed to make sense,kind of.
At times i would desire to talk about some issue with somebody and they would throw out something like "keep coming to meetings"..and i would feel angry,and didnt know why.
It wasn't untill i read the orange papers many years latter and came across the phrase, "thought stopping cliche'" ,that the penny dropped.
anyways..thank you for your kind thoughts re my son
For starters: "It really makes me feel physically sick that people like you exist Mariatte." Do I really need to copy/paste every insult you've tried to throw at me? You're like a punk who wrecked daddy's car and then told daddy somebody hit the car in a parking lot. Loser.
I'm still piecing this together, but regarding 13th-stepping, I can't help but figure that a large part of the phenomenon is that the room is not full of random humans, but rather is self-selected. That is, people are there because they have a greater tendency to act on impulsive behaviours and desires immediately and before consideration of consequences and social context. "I really want a drink", "I'd really like to xxx with that woman", "I'd really like to smoke a fag" ... in the room they learn that #1 is disapproved of, but whether #2 and #3 ought to be considered analagous remains vague. Anyway, it's just my theory, that these rooms are necessarily filled with a higher proportion of people who act spontaneously on cravings without thinking things through. Higher hedonic index, if you will. I'm not surprised that women have these complaints. What to do about it? I can control my own behavior, bide my time and get my card signed until I'm no longer coerced to be in the room. Could AA and NA be doing more to warn or act on this phenomenon? Probably.
It's all crap. Just find a healthy outlet for your addictive behavior and get out of the rooms. they're dead ends and derelicts who have found the perfect excuse not to work or move on: they have to go to meetings! damn right it's self selecting. It's also a vicious cycle of crap.
It's amazing that the venom I get when I talk about this subject is more from women than from men. I have always been amazed by that.
Ladies, if you go to AA, and you are raped, knocked up in your first year, sexually harassed, bullied into sex, groped, fondled, ogled, or stalked, PLEASE READ MARIETTA'S RESPONSES TO MY BLOG POST. Why? Because this is the reaction you will likely get if you speak up. YOU will be the one who is asked to leave ("why didn't you just leave..."), YOU will be the one who is held to take action, not the men.
IF YOU ARE A WOMAN NEW to AA, PLEASE READ MARIETTA'S RESPONSES here. They are more than typical. They are deeply ingrained in every AA member. If you are sexually injured in AA, not only will AA wash its hands of it and tell you to go to the police, but they will circle their covered wagons, hide behind the traditions and other 12-step speak, and claim that YOU need to do an inventory, not the man.
Did anyone hear one bit of compassion in MARIETTA'S responses? That's right, you will get none when this shit happens to you.
Marietta, I am not even going to justify your responses and questions for me with answers, because I don't have to. I don't need to justify my reasons for leaving AA to anyone. I dont have to justify or explain to you what actions I took in response to what happened. I know what I did in response, and I am happy with the results.
Many in AA think women are complainers, that we are victims, and whistleblowers. I have offered my experience on this forum because this is the proper place for me to do so, and to hopefully get support for my transitions out of the 12-step lifestyle. If you choose to respond to my blog post with the kind of language that you have offered, I feel sorry for you. You can't even admit even a little that AA has a problem in the area I have written about, even though one of the AA Trustees wrote and delivered a report on "AA predators" (yes predator was in the title). That shows your level of denial.
When young women brought their problems with AA predators to me when I was still in AA, I took action. I am still in action around this topic, and I can say for certain that I am STILL working behind the scenes to protect the children of AA. What are you doing? Trolling on an anti-AA site? How is that working for you? I'd love to see your recent 4-9 step, if you even have a sponsor and his name isn't Clancey I.
I will do a 4th step for you: you are afraid. You are afraid that if newcomers happen upon this site then they will leave AA, and in your world that can't happen. Well, in the words of AA, everyone has their own higher power. Newcomers will have to decide for themselves in the information age where they want to go for recovery. Trust me, hon, there are other ways! Even if newbies come upon this site and are frightened away from AA, they will find something that will work for them, or they won't. It has always worked that way, even before the Internet.
I am sure you are also angry that members here went on your forums and attacked AA. Well, what I have learned over the years of inventories I have done is that language says more about the voice than the subject. And, again, behind every resentment is usually fear, right?
You don't have to be afraid, Marietta. I don't know how many years you have, but over the last 10 years I have seen people recover from alcoholism in many ways other than AA. And, no, they are not "dry," by and large. Some are, but some are dry in the rooms of AA. It's going to be OK. AA will survive if it is meant to.
I really don't see how coming here and attacking people that are trying to decompress from AA is helping your sobriety. And if it's not helping, it's hurting, right?
I encourage you to spend your time on more worthwhile endeavors. I encourage the people on this site to stay off of AA sites and speak where they are wanted. This is getting really, really dumb. I am not going to re-examine my sobriety and go back to AA because of the vitriolic words of some random AAer on a forum.
At the same time, Marietta, no one is going to leave AA because of the words of some random person on a forum. My move from AA was gradual, and had nothing to do with this forum. First, I got rid of my sponsor. Then, I stopped working the steps in another program. I cut down to 1 meeting a week. Then I started attending Smart. Only then did I get on this forum, looking for others to help me transition out of a HUGE part of my life.
Please, go back to your own forum and help the next suffering alcoholic. You are needed elsewhere.
Blah, blah blah - the proper place and time for you to have complained about this was when it happened, where it happened. You're the kind of woman who takes "no" for an answer.
I don't deny there are predators - read my post carefully and you will find that there is no denial there. All I'm saying is you need to take the bull by the horns when this shit comes down and put a stop to it.
Don't care that you won't answer the questions. Don't care that you're happy with your result, though I find that hard to believe in the face of all your griping about it. I don't think you're a victim, I think you allowed others to manage your problem and you were left feeling small, and still feeling small.
I sobered up in A.A. I have no particular adulation for Bill Wilson or Dr. Bob. I understand how the program works and I've done what was suggested to me in order to achieve and maintain sobriety and to grow within the program. I have not one iota of fear that anyone will come here to this - place - and try to get sober or make some kind of life progress with what they find here. My personal introduction was one of vulgarity, sexism, and vociferous hatred, all because I have stepped over here from A.A. If newcomers take one look at istj04 or btnben or some of the other professional character assassins over here, they will also feel unwelcome.
I don't think I'm going to convince anyone to "come on over to A.A." I enjoy debate about philosophical, medical, emotional and, yes (G-d help me) spiritual matters. What happens here is not debate. It is hostile, libelous execration to the highest degree (always nice to be good at something, eh?) Yes, I sobered up in A.A. but I have a wider world view. You evidently can't see that from anything I've posted, even though I have taken woman's role in A.A. way past baking cookies for the summer picnic by acknowledging that there are gross misbehaviors in some A.A. groups that must be addressed. I agree, many of the older women won't take it on, but the younger ones who come through the doors have largely had a free pass to third wave Feminism and they believe they are entitled to be heard and that problems involving them should be addressed.
I don't know what action you took because you never revealed it. So how am I to know where you are in the process? Be fair. I asked questions and you are the one who exhibited fear by backing away and covering with that thin blanket of "I don't have to!" Sheesh. I'm not afraid of you or anyone else on this forum. But as much as these proclamations of happiness are waved about here, the less I believe them.
Big fucking deal....... unless you consider how many of those years were spent in AA. Then it may explain the reason your postings here reflect total insanity.
SexCrimeInAAMustStop
Fri, 09/02/2011 - 19:34
Permalink
13th stepping, sexual harassment, and sexism in the BB
This is one of the top 3 reasons I left. Men did not care if I had a boyfriend or if I was married. They did not care if my husband was sitting right next to me. One man at my home group regularly harassed me sexually for three years, even though I did my best to stay away from him. Don't ask me why I didnt change meetings. It is not the responsibility of the woman being harassed to make it stop.
My sponsees got harassed, got knocked up, raped, coerced, and threatened. I knew of young women who were getting beat up by their AA Pacific Group boyfriends, and I knew of underage girls who were being harassed, stalked, and sexually manhandled by much older men. Men with significant sobriety time, sponsors, and commitments. Two of them have over 20 years "in the program."
I saw sexism run rampant. No one anywhere in AA that I can remember ever said anything about how sexist and backwards the BB was. No one wanted to change it. And, of course, due to this, men in the program adopted the ways of the BB. Women were regularly silenced or not listened to at business meetings. Women were treated like pieces of meat to be enjoyed by the men. I knew one man who ran his own AA sect, who has over 15 years of sobriety, who openly slept with other women while he was married. Then, when the wife finally got wise and divorced him, he immediately started banging a newcomer with less than 30 days of sobriety. He proposed marriage to her before she got 90 days. He has over 15 sponsees.
This is just one of the reasons I left AA.
btnben
Fri, 09/02/2011 - 19:43
Permalink
Action
Have you ever considered reporting this to the police. It would take a lot of courage and could be fraught with danger. We've got a PG type group here in Plymouth. They are evil bastards and will blatantly and openly lie through their teeth to protect their own. So AA. I'm trying to contact anyone who has had bad experiences with them. I'm quite prepared to do all the front work, ie go to the police, arrange lawyers etc. I just want to get some truth in a court of law and see the whole house of lies come tumbling down.
My hope is to get just one criminal conviction and then we can open the floodgates for a class action civil case against individual AA members. Get damages awarded for people who have suffered abuse at the hands of AA. Any solicitor reading this who is interested in getting involved with a juicy publicity rich class action, get in touch.
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
massive
Sat, 02/18/2012 - 23:56
Permalink
Will you tell the truth to the media when they finally call back
Are you ready to talk to a reporter from a major News Network? Will these other women come out of the closet to finally speak up like the women in Boulder Colorado just did. Everyone needs to take off the anonymous Bullshit gloves and be seen and heard in our media.
PLease if you are ready then contact me at makeaasafer@gmail.com
Massive
aasux
Sat, 09/03/2011 - 08:16
Permalink
I left because I saw how
I left because I saw how Guyana and Waco ended. All cults go to hell in the end, and I don't want that ride.
marietta davis
Thu, 09/15/2011 - 19:26
Permalink
"I left because I saw how
"I left because I saw how Guyana and Waco ended. All cults go to hell in the end, and I don't want that ride."
Do you really think that being part of this cultish culture typified by hateful, spiteful rhetoric which is largely unsubstantiated by thoughtful process is a great improvement over A.A.?
Good luck.
marietta
SexCrimeInAAMustStop
Sat, 09/03/2011 - 10:49
Permalink
Action, Definitely
BTNBen:
I am definitely in action on this issue. If you want to know more about the movement to end these sorts of practices, check out stop13stepinaa.wordpress.com.
SexCrimeInAAMustStop
Sat, 09/03/2011 - 13:35
Permalink
Is AA a Deranged Sex Cult?
Someone may say that the sexual misconduct of which I speak "is not AA." I beg to differ. One instance of sexual misconduct in the rooms may be an anomaly. Two times may be a coincidence. But three times- that is a pattern. Four or more times? At that point, I firmly believe that it is a pattern firmly entrenched within the walls of the rooms at AA. And when the sexual misconduct is happening over and over again at different meetings in different areas, in different cities, with different types of people, it just becomes cult-like.
marietta davis
Thu, 09/15/2011 - 17:18
Permalink
You seem to be having trouble
You seem to be having trouble differentiating between a program and a perp. Why did you return over and over? Do you live in Dry Gulch where there's only one A.A. meeting available per week? Honestly, I do not understand women who don't or won't fight back.
btnben
Thu, 09/15/2011 - 18:32
Permalink
Strange?
Among the spiritual and serene, why do women have to fight at all?
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
marietta davis
Thu, 09/15/2011 - 19:24
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The Obvious
"Among the spiritual and serene, why do women have to fight at all?"
Mainly in self-defense. You should know this. If not, learn it.
marietta
Clara
Tue, 02/21/2012 - 17:33
Permalink
I would have told. We had
I would have told. We had men and women behaving inappropriately in some meetings, but I agree. You have to remember what is a program and what are people behaving badly. Something about personalities... But I also did that is bars, too. If your husband/boyfriend was behaving badly toward me, I would telll him off AND I would tell you... No one needs to buy into victimhood.
My comments on OPF represent my views only and do not represent those of AA.
marietta davis
Thu, 09/15/2011 - 19:53
Permalink
But who is the common
"Someone may say that the sexual misconduct of which I speak "is not AA." I beg to differ. One instance of sexual misconduct in the rooms may be an anomaly. Two times may be a coincidence. But three times- that is a pattern. Four or more times? At that point, I firmly believe that it is a pattern firmly entrenched within the walls of the rooms at AA. And when the sexual misconduct is happening over and over again at different meetings in different areas, in different cities, with different types of people, it just becomes cult-like."
But who is the common denominator here? You are. Why did you even return after the first offense? What specific misconduct are you talking about here? A remark? Physical contact? What? Did you address the offense at the time? If not, why not? It would be good to know you're not a "hysterical female". I say this woman-to-woman. Don't stoop to making all women look ridiculous because someone said something offensive to you and you decided to scream "fire!", blaming an entire group of faultless people for it. Surely every single person at the meeting didn't lay a hand on you or call you a cunt like they do me here. Have you taken it upon yourself to represent every person who has been on the receiving end of sexual innuendo or unwelcome advances in an A.A. meeting? That's gonna take a shitpile of documentation, to weed out truth from fiction.
If someone has done something illegal to you, or something that you consider blatant enough to be considered overt sexual assault, get the law on it. But don't blame the school teacher in the corner of the meeting because some jerk came on to you. Get real. Assign blame where it belongs. And remember: no matter how hard you try to make people act the way you want them to, a dick is a dick, always and forever. They simply cannot be rehabbed.
m
Brett
Thu, 09/15/2011 - 20:53
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who is common
marietta, are you seriously asking sciaa to find her part in the harassment. are you seriously suggesting that she makes all women look stupid. She has mearly called it as she found it. In addition I have never called you a profanity and I never will, cunts are usefull (something I doubt you are) as an a.a booster I would suggest you're more of an ankle (3 feet lower than a cunt)
p.s. my dick does not need to be rehabbed
Brett
marietta davis
Thu, 09/15/2011 - 21:04
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A new low among men
I am not asking SCIAA to do anything except answer some questions. Harassment is a fact of daily life for many, many women in this country. If she hasn't the gumption to take on the jerks when the harassment happens then she is partially culpable for her own indelible impression of A.A., as if men acting like dicks is the full scope of what A.A. is about. Now, I have no doubt that istj04 and btnben and some of the other wild cards here will have great fun with this, and that makes them dicks that are just as offensive as any who may have populated any A.A. meetings.
Why must you lower yourself to the level of what this woman is complaining about in A.A.? You're no better than the rest. I have certainly been called a cunt on these forums, and for all your "clever" wordplay you are nothing more than the dicks in the sad tale from SCIAA.
Thanks for the supremely unsatisfying roll in the hay, knuckle dragger.
marietta
marietta davis
Fri, 09/16/2011 - 15:13
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microscope
" my dick does not need to be rehabbed"
If you want anyone to see it, it does.
m
btnben
Fri, 09/16/2011 - 20:30
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Vomit inducing
Doesn't that post just sum up what is fucked-up with steppism? Every instinct screams to protect people who are harassed, and what does our enlightened, open-minded, stepper do? Blame them. It really makes me feel physically sick that people like you exist Mariatte.
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
marietta davis
Fri, 09/16/2011 - 21:25
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It works if I work it
I make you sick?! That's rich! Think I'll keep hanging around.
Clara
Tue, 02/21/2012 - 17:35
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No purpose to this kind of
No purpose to this kind of language. It is harassment in and of itself.
My comments on OPF represent my views only and do not represent those of AA.
marietta davis
Fri, 09/16/2011 - 13:51
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Individual responsibility
SCIAA:
A waitress who spills water in your lap - even repeatedly - is not the restaurant. She is a clumsy individual. A medical assistant who walks away from a blood pressure machine in use is not the medical office - she is a forgetful or stressed individual. A teacher who loses his cool and cusses out his classroom of students is not the school - he is an overwrought instructor. Each of these can be viewed as agents of the larger groups they represent, and, yes, they do have the power to leave a negative impression, but they are not the sum total of the groups they personify. This is not A.A. bullshit. This is individual responsibility. At this time I don't view you as "the orange papers", or with the same disdain I do many of the other posters here, because I think you have actually given some thought to what you've written before you've posted it, and your thoughts are not exactly knee-jerk responses so far.
If sexual misconduct is permitted to occur repeatedly within one meeting, whose fault is it? The responsibility is on the shoulders of the members of the group/meeting to correct it. This does not call for an A.A. mandate, it calls for the offended persons to summon their common sense, step up and take action. Why allow it? It's like allowing a 3-year-old to smash things in his house - are you going to let him do it or are you going to put a stop to it? If this misconduct is a "pattern", then those who allowed it to develop into a pattern are responsible for their own distress over it.
If you were there, if you witnessed it and did nothing to stop it, how can you complain? And how can you blame A.A. for the unacceptable behaviors of some of its members? If you saw an A.A. member hitting on a woman in the grocery store parking lot, would you say, "A.A. is such bullshit! Look at him!"? If you immediately came to that evaluation of the situation, then I guess I'll have to rescind my comments about your being thoughtful and not expressing knee-jerk reactions.
marietta
Clara
Tue, 02/21/2012 - 17:37
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We used to have a guy tell us
We used to have a guy tell us that he would throw chairs and tables at meetings. I once told him that if you can't do it outside without repercussions, you shouldn't be able to do it in a room. I would call the police on someone that behaved in the way this woman describes. If I don't, I am a tactit part of the problem.
My comments on OPF represent my views only and do not represent those of AA.
SexCrimeInAAMustStop
Sat, 09/03/2011 - 13:47
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I Have More Horror Stories
This is only one of many reasons I left AA. I can't write them all at once, or I'd have a book on my hands lol. I guess that wouldn't be so bad, would it? I will talk later about these other reasons I left:
1. Lack of adequate leadership (my sponsors were crazy)
2. Cliques and sects within AA that are averse to any type of expressed individualism
3. Lack of acceptance of race, religion, manner of dress, disabilities, and medical conditions
4. AA's aversion to people expressing their intelligence, logical and reasoning abilities
5. The insistence by AAs with time that I spend more and more time within the organization
6. The bait-and-switch con game: all their literature insists that they are an idealized democratic "benign anarchy," but in reality they are a rigid self-enforced autocracy ruled by a set of 36 principles which cannot be broken lest a member risk being shunned or passive-aggressively ridiculed at group level by members of the group.
marietta davis
Thu, 09/15/2011 - 17:15
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A.A. should be different than Life?
So you are looking for Utopia, then? Isn't the answer in your mind and soul and spine, and not in the behaviors of others? Why didn't you carry a weapon? If you didn't like the meetings why didn't you try to change them? How vulnerable did you allow yourself to be to what was unacceptable to you? And would suggesting that you go to another meeting really be out of line?
marietta
btnben
Thu, 09/15/2011 - 18:35
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Un - fucking - believeable
Got it here in black and white from a true believer - If you go to an AA meeting, go armed. Is this legal?
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
massive
Sat, 02/18/2012 - 23:57
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I am with you 100%!
I am with you 100%!
Massive
Clara
Tue, 02/21/2012 - 17:40
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But I am glad that you said
But I am glad that you said you "left." because there are others that seem to feel that you cannot leave AA. You just get up and go. I went to numerous groups in Myrtle Beach, and one sounds a bit as you describe. But it didn't bother me. Those are just people; the program is different and separate. I can work a program with my sponsor and not get caught up in minutia. We had everyone, gays, blak people, white, hispanic, upstanding, lowstanding... My experiences were totaly different and all I have to go on.
My comments on OPF represent my views only and do not represent those of AA.
marietta davis
Thu, 09/15/2011 - 19:21
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Pepper spray is legal in many
Pepper spray is legal in many states in varying quantities. I wouldn't hesitate to use it in self defense. Of course, some women do not understand the difference between an asshole and a perpetrator - maybe the woman/women who left A.A. because of the inexcusable behavior of some of the men there (i.e., 13th stepping) are unable to make that distinction.
m
btnben
Thu, 09/15/2011 - 21:37
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The frightening thing is........
Marietta actually believes what she writes. FFS woman - if you're feeling threatened it makes no difference if it's by an asshole or a perpetrator. YOU NEED PSYCHIATRIC HELP.
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
marietta davis
Fri, 09/16/2011 - 10:13
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If a woman feels threatened
If a woman feels threatened she needs psychiatric help?! Can you explain that? Or is this just another btnben sloppy post where you mix your pronouns to the point of incoherence?
m
btnben
Fri, 09/16/2011 - 20:34
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YOU NEED PSYCHIATRIC HELP.
Let's start a poll and see how many people don't know who that comment was directed at...lol. What do you reckon on the results Marietta?...lol
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
marietta davis
Fri, 09/16/2011 - 21:33
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Your powers of self
Your powers of self-expression are infinitessimal.
If it's worth saying ...
marietta davis
Fri, 09/16/2011 - 21:34
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Your powers of self
Your powers of self-expression are infinitessimal.
... it's worth repeating.
marietta davis
Fri, 09/16/2011 - 21:30
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Go on. Start a poll no one can vote on.
Your powers of self-expression are infinitesimal. Do you actually think I care about the results? If I were concerned about what you think of me I'd have been gone long ago. The more you resist the more fun it is for me to catch you in your ignorance. Keep it up. Start a poll. Rage at the machine. Hang me in effigy. Like I give a shit.
marietta
btnben
Fri, 09/16/2011 - 21:34
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OK
You're not getting it are you Marietta? When you first came on here a lot of people got angry with you. Now we all just feel a bit sad for you. Calm down - there is more to life than hating people.
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
marietta davis
Fri, 09/16/2011 - 21:40
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So you're the Grand Poobah who speaks for all?
Look in the mirror and repeat your post to yourself, and then send a memo to your "daddy", istj04.
m
btnben
Fri, 09/16/2011 - 21:45
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Just reading
I speak only for myself. It's just that, reading the posts over the last few days, you seem to be getting more and more manic and regulars on here seem to be getting a bit worried about you. If you've got any little pills, now's a good time...lol
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
marietta davis
Fri, 09/16/2011 - 23:11
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How can one man be so consistently WRONG?
Hardly manic, love. Just persistent.
m
Free-me
Fri, 09/16/2011 - 02:31
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i decided to leave AA when my son was born..
He had loads of disabilities going on,
was very ill in the first two years of his life..
times were tough
i had about 8 years of AA style "sobriety up",
no body rang ..not even once
nobody visited us at hospital
when i got to meetings to get my "support" i heard the usual dribble
"keep coming to meetings"
"pray about it"
"hand it over'
"at least your sober"
i simply realised that i was wasting my time with those people.
they didnt care for me as a human being in a tough situation
they just blurted slogans because they didnt know what else to say
it was easy to stop going..
The Truth will set you free..
marietta davis
Fri, 09/16/2011 - 10:29
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Welcome To Holland
Are you finding support within these forums for the life-altering situation you have been handed? Is your son's overall condition one that improves with time? A special needs child requires extraordinary parental measures, and the parent often lives with daily frustration, weariness, exhaustion. If you were looking to A.A. to fix that, I believe that was an unrealistic expectation. I understand how some meetings have cliques and the attendees can just pat one another on the back and utter slogans. But if one cares about the state of the meetings one attends, it then becomes a responsibility of that person to try to effect change and stir things up so that the message isn't lost behind self-congratulatory behaviors.
You clearly had your hands full and were not in a situation to be making changes in the meetings. I'm sorry no one responded to you on a level that was helpful. I don't believe it's the fault of A.A.; I think it's just a case of human/alcoholic deficiency.
OK, btnben and istj04, let the shredding begin, as if misogynists' opinions carry much weight on the topic.
Good luck, Free-me.
marietta
Free-me
Fri, 09/16/2011 - 11:09
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Slogans that stop thought..
My son died 9 years ago so i dont require support in that way anymore.
The point i make is that i found the programe to be totally exposed when the heat was on,
After being a hardout AAer for years,i was suddenly in need of help..and it just wasnt there.
Truth is doubts and dissapointments about my AA life had been building for quite some time
My sons birth was the straw that broke the AA camels back.
Your observations about parenting special needs children are correct,at least in my case.
the slogans were my least favourite part of being an AA member.They used to frustrate me and i never quite knew why..they seemed to make sense,kind of.
At times i would desire to talk about some issue with somebody and they would throw out something like "keep coming to meetings"..and i would feel angry,and didnt know why.
It wasn't untill i read the orange papers many years latter and came across the phrase, "thought stopping cliche'" ,that the penny dropped.
anyways..thank you for your kind thoughts re my son
The Truth will set you free..
btnben
Fri, 09/16/2011 - 20:38
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Fruitcake
Can someone please tell me where anyone could get the idea I'm a misogynist? This one is barking at the moon...lol
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
marietta davis
Fri, 09/16/2011 - 23:17
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How much time do you have?
For starters: "It really makes me feel physically sick that people like you exist Mariatte." Do I really need to copy/paste every insult you've tried to throw at me? You're like a punk who wrecked daddy's car and then told daddy somebody hit the car in a parking lot. Loser.
btnben
Fri, 09/16/2011 - 23:35
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Barking
Anything I have against you is not because you are a woman. It's because you are barking mad...lol
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
marietta davis
Fri, 09/16/2011 - 23:38
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I think you're an exceptionally poor liar.
Just responding to what I find here - little intelligence, less sanity.
Have a lovely evening in the land of boiled meat and drizzle.
murf
Fri, 09/16/2011 - 09:53
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self-selecting group of hedonists
I'm still piecing this together, but regarding 13th-stepping, I can't help but figure that a large part of the phenomenon is that the room is not full of random humans, but rather is self-selected. That is, people are there because they have a greater tendency to act on impulsive behaviours and desires immediately and before consideration of consequences and social context. "I really want a drink", "I'd really like to xxx with that woman", "I'd really like to smoke a fag" ... in the room they learn that #1 is disapproved of, but whether #2 and #3 ought to be considered analagous remains vague. Anyway, it's just my theory, that these rooms are necessarily filled with a higher proportion of people who act spontaneously on cravings without thinking things through. Higher hedonic index, if you will. I'm not surprised that women have these complaints. What to do about it? I can control my own behavior, bide my time and get my card signed until I'm no longer coerced to be in the room. Could AA and NA be doing more to warn or act on this phenomenon? Probably.
aasux
Fri, 09/16/2011 - 10:52
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It's all crap. Just find a
It's all crap. Just find a healthy outlet for your addictive behavior and get out of the rooms. they're dead ends and derelicts who have found the perfect excuse not to work or move on: they have to go to meetings! damn right it's self selecting. It's also a vicious cycle of crap.
marietta davis
Fri, 09/16/2011 - 11:00
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I think I heard that
I think I heard that somewhere ... that no one in A.A. has a job or a goal or ambition or even a brain.
Oh wait - I heard it here, on the Forum of Sanctimony.
That explains it.
m
SexCrimeInAAMustStop
Fri, 09/16/2011 - 13:22
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Marietta's Responses are SO Typical of AA.
Wow.
It's amazing that the venom I get when I talk about this subject is more from women than from men. I have always been amazed by that.
Ladies, if you go to AA, and you are raped, knocked up in your first year, sexually harassed, bullied into sex, groped, fondled, ogled, or stalked, PLEASE READ MARIETTA'S RESPONSES TO MY BLOG POST. Why? Because this is the reaction you will likely get if you speak up. YOU will be the one who is asked to leave ("why didn't you just leave..."), YOU will be the one who is held to take action, not the men.
IF YOU ARE A WOMAN NEW to AA, PLEASE READ MARIETTA'S RESPONSES here. They are more than typical. They are deeply ingrained in every AA member. If you are sexually injured in AA, not only will AA wash its hands of it and tell you to go to the police, but they will circle their covered wagons, hide behind the traditions and other 12-step speak, and claim that YOU need to do an inventory, not the man.
Did anyone hear one bit of compassion in MARIETTA'S responses? That's right, you will get none when this shit happens to you.
Marietta, I am not even going to justify your responses and questions for me with answers, because I don't have to. I don't need to justify my reasons for leaving AA to anyone. I dont have to justify or explain to you what actions I took in response to what happened. I know what I did in response, and I am happy with the results.
Many in AA think women are complainers, that we are victims, and whistleblowers. I have offered my experience on this forum because this is the proper place for me to do so, and to hopefully get support for my transitions out of the 12-step lifestyle. If you choose to respond to my blog post with the kind of language that you have offered, I feel sorry for you. You can't even admit even a little that AA has a problem in the area I have written about, even though one of the AA Trustees wrote and delivered a report on "AA predators" (yes predator was in the title). That shows your level of denial.
When young women brought their problems with AA predators to me when I was still in AA, I took action. I am still in action around this topic, and I can say for certain that I am STILL working behind the scenes to protect the children of AA. What are you doing? Trolling on an anti-AA site? How is that working for you? I'd love to see your recent 4-9 step, if you even have a sponsor and his name isn't Clancey I.
I will do a 4th step for you: you are afraid. You are afraid that if newcomers happen upon this site then they will leave AA, and in your world that can't happen. Well, in the words of AA, everyone has their own higher power. Newcomers will have to decide for themselves in the information age where they want to go for recovery. Trust me, hon, there are other ways! Even if newbies come upon this site and are frightened away from AA, they will find something that will work for them, or they won't. It has always worked that way, even before the Internet.
I am sure you are also angry that members here went on your forums and attacked AA. Well, what I have learned over the years of inventories I have done is that language says more about the voice than the subject. And, again, behind every resentment is usually fear, right?
You don't have to be afraid, Marietta. I don't know how many years you have, but over the last 10 years I have seen people recover from alcoholism in many ways other than AA. And, no, they are not "dry," by and large. Some are, but some are dry in the rooms of AA. It's going to be OK. AA will survive if it is meant to.
I really don't see how coming here and attacking people that are trying to decompress from AA is helping your sobriety. And if it's not helping, it's hurting, right?
I encourage you to spend your time on more worthwhile endeavors. I encourage the people on this site to stay off of AA sites and speak where they are wanted. This is getting really, really dumb. I am not going to re-examine my sobriety and go back to AA because of the vitriolic words of some random AAer on a forum.
At the same time, Marietta, no one is going to leave AA because of the words of some random person on a forum. My move from AA was gradual, and had nothing to do with this forum. First, I got rid of my sponsor. Then, I stopped working the steps in another program. I cut down to 1 meeting a week. Then I started attending Smart. Only then did I get on this forum, looking for others to help me transition out of a HUGE part of my life.
Please, go back to your own forum and help the next suffering alcoholic. You are needed elsewhere.
marietta davis
Fri, 09/16/2011 - 13:43
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Blah, blah blah - the proper
Blah, blah blah - the proper place and time for you to have complained about this was when it happened, where it happened. You're the kind of woman who takes "no" for an answer.
I don't deny there are predators - read my post carefully and you will find that there is no denial there. All I'm saying is you need to take the bull by the horns when this shit comes down and put a stop to it.
Don't care that you won't answer the questions. Don't care that you're happy with your result, though I find that hard to believe in the face of all your griping about it. I don't think you're a victim, I think you allowed others to manage your problem and you were left feeling small, and still feeling small.
Good luck. Don't forget that pepper spray.
marietta
marietta davis
Fri, 09/16/2011 - 14:09
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A.A.
I sobered up in A.A. I have no particular adulation for Bill Wilson or Dr. Bob. I understand how the program works and I've done what was suggested to me in order to achieve and maintain sobriety and to grow within the program. I have not one iota of fear that anyone will come here to this - place - and try to get sober or make some kind of life progress with what they find here. My personal introduction was one of vulgarity, sexism, and vociferous hatred, all because I have stepped over here from A.A. If newcomers take one look at istj04 or btnben or some of the other professional character assassins over here, they will also feel unwelcome.
I don't think I'm going to convince anyone to "come on over to A.A." I enjoy debate about philosophical, medical, emotional and, yes (G-d help me) spiritual matters. What happens here is not debate. It is hostile, libelous execration to the highest degree (always nice to be good at something, eh?) Yes, I sobered up in A.A. but I have a wider world view. You evidently can't see that from anything I've posted, even though I have taken woman's role in A.A. way past baking cookies for the summer picnic by acknowledging that there are gross misbehaviors in some A.A. groups that must be addressed. I agree, many of the older women won't take it on, but the younger ones who come through the doors have largely had a free pass to third wave Feminism and they believe they are entitled to be heard and that problems involving them should be addressed.
I don't know what action you took because you never revealed it. So how am I to know where you are in the process? Be fair. I asked questions and you are the one who exhibited fear by backing away and covering with that thin blanket of "I don't have to!" Sheesh. I'm not afraid of you or anyone else on this forum. But as much as these proclamations of happiness are waved about here, the less I believe them.
Anything else?
marietta
One more thing: 27 years.
Amour013
Sat, 09/17/2011 - 11:08
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One more thing: 27 years.
Big fucking deal....... unless you consider how many of those years were spent in AA. Then it may explain the reason your postings here reflect total insanity.
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