A special thanks... and goodbye

Submitted by disclosure on Sat, 08/25/2012 - 07:56

A special thanks... and goodbye

Comments

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 09:20

Going to AA can cause a relapse of powerlessness and you may even start spouting slogans and not realize what you have done. Just remember they are training prospect hunters on TheFix how to minimize and deflect these 12 truths about AA:

1. By admitting we were “powerless” and our lives “unmanageable,” we’re making ourselves prime bait to be brainwashed by a cult.
2. You have to believe you’re nuts and that only some “Higher Power” can bestow you with the blessing of sobriety and sanity.
3. Made “a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him” means I can’t be in AA unless I’m a Christian.
4. Making “a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves” sounds a bit patronizing. Why should I admit I’m wrong just because I like the sauce?
5. “Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs” doesn’t appeal to me. Why should I tell my dark and dirty secrets to someone else?
6. “Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character” suggests that I have defects of character!
7. “Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings” IS A TRICK TO LURE US INTO BEING CHRISTIANS!
8. Making “a list of all persons we had harmed” and becoming “willing to make amends to them all” will be incredibly complicated.
9. Making “direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others” sounds like a nightmare.
10. Continuing "to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it” sounds unrealistic. I have no interest in constantly examining and confessing to bad behavior.
11. No, thank you, I’d rather not seek “through prayer and meditation to improve” my “conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.”
12. I’m not interested in “having a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps” or in carrying “this message to alcoholics” or in practicing “these principles in all my affairs.”

Read the entire AA prospect hunting manual and minimization techniques at: http://www.thefix.com/content/12-steps-12-steps

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 09:28

The myths and misconceptions of Orange Papers Forum.

Morgan's picture

Morgan

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 11:30

This reminds me somewhat of defense attorney tactics. 1st of all, these aren't all myths. #9-12 are either opinions (#9) or expressions of lack of "interest" in doing that step (10-12). For #7, she presumes that the main objection involves Christianity, but that isn't my main objection (nor is it the crux of most objections I've heard)--that is a bit of a straw man. Rather, it's the role that "God" is said to play in our lives, including sobriety. I don't buy into the basic premise, so I can't bend Step 7 to be relevant to me.

She tries to downplay--ignore, actually--the importance of God. But if you remove God from the Steps, what exactly would restore you to sanity? You wouldn't admit anything to God in Step 5. Step 3 would be completely impossible (who or what else would you turn your life over to?) Same with 6 and 7.

Step 12 assumes a spiritual awakening. How is that defined? It begins with the assumption that it's occurred--it's a prerequisite for carrying the message. So can the message still be carried without the awakening, or is that possible? And what is the message (can we just ignore God, as the author tries to do?) An individual can resolve these conflicts in one's own mind (however they wish), but that doesn't make the program internally consistent.

I do think that if people want to go to AA and just follow a few steps (the ones without God references) or just change the original meaning to suit their own needs, they're entitled to do so. But is that still AA? A lot of AA's would say it isn't, and certainly many would object to the minimization (let alone the elimination of) God in the Steps. A lot of sponsors wouldn't accept such loose interpretations, either.

For the author to say that objections (some of which she misrepresents anyway) to the Steps are merely "myths" is disingenuous. She makes a case for personal inventories and for exploring one's "shortcomings" and "character flaws" but offers allegedly mythical (and I will say, weak) objections--and though they are weak, they are not wrong. They are one interpretation--one that is stricter than the one she offers. If her interpretation is valid, then why is the critic's invalid? If she is allowing herself such flexibility, she can't convincingly argue against a more literal interpretation.

#1 won't apply to everyone (not everyone will be brainwashed) but it definitely can be true under some circumstances. #4 - It's merely an opinion that it's "patronizing." You can't prove it to be true or false. #6 simply repeats the obvious--somehow, a near-verbatim restatement of the Step itself is a "myth"!

OK, this is becoming Orwellian, or maybe more like Alice in Wonderland. Words mean exactly what I say they mean--right? Even if they clearly don't.

Morgan's picture

Morgan

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 11:57

And somehow I don't think the author would appreciate my criticism. This is her serene response to a poster who argued with her about tobacco use in AA:

"it doesn't encourage or enable use of cigarettes. should AA be buying cigarettes and handing them out free at the door, or have it written in the 12 steps that one must smoke in order to get sober I'd agree with you, but honestly, you're being an ignorant contentious prick now - either that or you're plain stupid - and you're kind of pissing me off."

That was in response to a pretty mild comment, too. She should check out OPF!

SandyB's picture

SandyB

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 12:16

She sounds like a member

Morgan's picture

Morgan

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 12:22

But she wouldn't say that if she saw the cute dog.

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 12:40

Yes, Morgan, it is still AA although there are some that would tell you otherwise. I don't have to do it the same as Penny does it, nor do you have to do it the way that I do it.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Morgan's picture

Morgan

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 14:14

approach in AA. If I were involved, I would want the opposite. I'm just curious-for all the talk of the autonomy of individual groups--how far removed a group could get from the Steps, traditions and texts before it became a different entity. Not incredibly curious, since I don't go. (I won't say never, because they do have some less conventional Groups in the bay area of CA.)

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 14:51

True. In MB, there was an atheist group that was delisted because they were rewriting the materials. Go off, be your own group, but you aren't an AA group if you do that. I am sure there are some people that are being helped through it, too.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 15:05

Go off, be your own group, but you aren't an AA group if you do that.

Would it be OK if an AA group disregarded the Doctor's Opinion by saying it is cool to moderately consume small amounts of alcohol with food? Or what if a group rejected the whole notion in Step One that we are powerless over the choice to take the first drink? Could those groups still call themselves AA groups?

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 16:16

I don't think that is a group but perhaps a personal choice, although I do know many that didn't feel that just becasue they became sober, it meant they were relegated to fast food joints for the rest of their lives. I do know some that were professionally trained chefs that changed professions because merely tasting sauces whetted them. Are you consuming a glass of wine with your food or does your food have a splash of seasoned sherry? There will be some that will not use mouthwashes or toothpaste with alcohols in them while others will never be bothered by those concerns.

I don't have an opinion on the rest of it. LOL!

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

becket's picture

becket

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 12:57

"So can the message still be carried without the awakening, or is that possible?"

Yes. It is called "marketing".

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Morgan's picture

Morgan

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 13:59

and maybe focusing on that double-barreled language in Step 12 is just harping. Probably so. Clearly the focus is on service. Some of the other steps are strictly God-centered and less open to interpretation.

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 14:05

Could be. A friend of mine feels his aha moments are spiritual gifts/awakenings. If he has his aha moments and it contributes to his sobriety in a useful fashion, no harm in passing that message on. He is an atheist in AA. It works for him.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Morgan's picture

Morgan

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 14:24

but in a way that I don't often put into words. I'm agnostic. I think I've only considered atheism out of rebellion against religious intolerance or obnoxiousness (not people simply talking about their beliefs, but bashing others' beliefs, condemning them to hell and what not.) It's intolerance I reject, not religion (so much).

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 09:25

disclosure asks: "I’ll buy that, but what of the natural world outside the doors? What about diversity? As I sat there I wondered; is this the panacea of all mans ills?" The problem of belief. You do or you don't. The problem of doubt. Thinking you believe something when the something may not be what you think, or the something is something else.

disclosure

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 10:33

Please don’t be offended Alkieanon, but isn’t your statement quoted below a bit slippery and ambiguous?
“Thinking you believe something when the something may not be what you think, or the something is something else.”

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 21:31

"... is this the panacea of all mans ills?"

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 09:37

Ok, I'm pretty much ready to wrap it up here, but this is worth addressing:

1) So you decided to have a few drinks. I take it you didn't get arrested, sleep in the gutter, beat your wife/kids, get fired, or do anything else atrocious. You consider this to be a slip, so you went to a meeting. My question is why do you consider it a slip? Because AA says it is? Is sobriety your end goal, or is it merely a means to some other end? If the latter, is having a few beers on Friday night incompatible with achieving that end? Aside from any shame about drinking, how is your life different today than it would have been if you had not drank yesterday?

2) I don't see how the natural world can serve as an AA higher power that keeps you sober. For one, the natural world does not care whether you drink. This is because there is no single natural conscious mind to care about anything at all. Secondly, the natural world, by definition, is not capable of performing miracles. To bring about the miracles the Big Book talks about, you need to turn it over to the supernatural..

"The central fact of our lives today is the absolute certainty that our Creator has entered into our hearts and lives in a way which is indeed miraculous." ~ BB pg 25

"For faith in a Power greater than ourselves, and miraculous demonstrations of that power in human lives, are facts as old as man himself." ~ BB pg 55

"This Power has in each case accomplished the miraculous, the humanly impossible." ~ BB pg 50

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/miracle

mir·a·cle   [mir-uh-kuhl] Show IPA
noun
1.
an effect or extraordinary event in the physical world that surpasses all known human or natural powers and is ascribed to a supernatural cause.
2.
such an effect or event manifesting or considered as a work of God.
3.
a wonder; marvel.
4.
a wonderful or surpassing example of some quality: a miracle of modern acoustics.
5.
miracle play.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

disclosure

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 10:09

1. The slip was going to the meeting. I did not drink.
2. The natural world does not serve as a higher power; it serves as a force that I navigate.
a. The natural world does not care if I drink, this is Anthropomorphism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropomorphism
The natural world is regulated by physical law; if I drink irresponsibly I will suffer natural consequences.
Thank you so much for the exchange and opportunity to explain myself. I am here for you if you want to keep it going.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 10:53

1). That's cool, sorry for the confusion.

2). I think the natural world is a collection of different forces, sometimes in conflict with one another, which we have no choice but to navigate. Indeed, each one of us could rightly be considered a natural force.

3). As I said directly above, I think we ourselves are natural forces. No doubt that if we drink irresponsibly, we subject ourselves to the natural consequences of those actions. But AA, of course, says that we are powerless to avoid those consequences by voluntarly not drinking. Our strength must come from a higher power, which is what the whole program is about. If we don't find this higher power, we are doomed to drink and suffer the natural consequences of alcoholism. I don't really see how those consequences themselves could be the higher power that keeps us sober, since the whole premise of AA is that without God as we understood Him, we are powerless to avoid those very consequences. Does that make sense?

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 10:50

Analogy:

Your car is traveling 70 mph as it approaches a busy intersection. The natural consequence of not stopping is that there is a high likelihood of getting into a bad accident. It is absurd to think that fear of getting into an accident will itself prevent the accident by stopping the car. Rather, your defense against the accident must come from applying the brakes.

In AA, "we alcoholics" are like the car in the above example, except we don't have brakes. No matter how much we wish to not suffer the natural consequences of drinking, we are powerless to avoid them. God must function as the brakes by doing for us what we cannot do for ourselves.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

disclosure

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 10:53

Precisely PW, excellent analogy; even if natural law is my higher power I still must apply the brakes to stop the car. God (natural law) can not do for me what I desire to do for myself, I must do it. Natural law also dictates that if I drink excessively I will impair my decision making ability. It is up to me to remain sober or at a level where my thought process is not impaired; God (nature) has no power without my cooperation. I am only powerless over the action of alcohol while intoxicated or damaged. I am never powerless over alcohol unless my decision making ability is damaged by its misuse.

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 10:56

Very good. i am not powerless over alcohol unless I drink it because I have no boundaries with it. I have spent plenty of time trying to explain my concept over powerlessness. I am not powerless in general at all.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

disclosure

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 11:04

I can and will drink small amounts of alcohol because I enjoy it. As long as I am not impaired, I am sober. If I overstretch my boundaries I can correct the situation. I am not powerless over alcohol.
Cravings are like waves, everyone has them and they pass. Consciousness is the key to success, to earn consciousness you must abstain from irresponsible use. For some this means abstinence, it did for me for a long time. Now it means responsibility so that I may fully enjoy the things I chose to. Bondage is restriction. The term bondage of self can be self imprisonment or freedom depending on the context in which you use it.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 11:13

We've been over this too many times, Clara. AA says that you are powerless not just once you start drinking, but also over the choice to take the first drink. Indeed, if we have power over the first drink, there either would be no point of AA or AA would be about helping drunks drink in moderation.

From the Big Book:

"You may think this an extreme case. To us it is not far-fetched, for this kind of thinking has been characteristic of every single one of us. We have sometimes reflected more than Jim did upon the consequences. But there was always the curious mental phenomenon that parallel with our sound reasoning there inevitably ran some insanely trivial excuse for taking the first drink. Our sound reasoning failed to hold us in check. The insane idea won out. Next day we would ask ourselves, in all earnestness and sincerity, how it could have happened." pg 37

"Our behavior is as absurd and incomprehensible with respect to the first drink as that of an individual with a passion, say, for jay-walking." pg 37

Not only had I been off guard, I had made no fight whatever against the first drink. This time I had not thought of the consequences at all. I had commenced to drink as carelessly as though the cocktails were ginger ale. I now remembered what my alcoholic friends had told me, how they prophesied that if I had an alcoholic mind, the time and place would come - I would drink again." pg 41-42

"Once more: The alcoholic at certain times has no effective mental defense against the first drink. Except in a few rare cases, neither he nor any other human being can provide such a defense. His defense must come from a Higher Power." pg 43

"They had said that though I did raise a defense, it would one day give way before some trivial reason for having a drink. Well, just that did happen and more, for what I had learned of alcoholism did not occur to me at all. I knew from that moment that I had an alcoholic mind. I saw that will power and self-knowledge would not help in those strange mental blank spots." pg 41

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 11:11

And as I have always said, you do it your way, Penny, and I will happily do it mine.

And I do know people that have gone through horrible circumstances and have not drank over them, only to find a bottle left in a fridge by their real estate agent to celebrate a new home purchase and POP!

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 11:12

Yeah, but this is not about you or your way. It's about AA, and your way is different than AA's.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 11:35

My way is the way any number of people practice it, and we are sober. And happy.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 11:37

Wonderful, but that's not AA.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 12:37

Penny, I am not going to dispute that people have different takes. I also don't care. The last thing I read on RFR wase JR's "advice" to someone and those certainly were not my experiences in AA, either.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 13:09

Yeah, but I am not talking about people's experiences in AA. Obviously yours was fantastic. Rather, I am talking about the philosophy of AA as it is outlined in the scriptures. Maybe you don't understand the difference, or maybe you don't care. Either way, the overarching philosophy transcends your experiences in Myrtle Beach, and it is that flawed philosophy that I have tried to help debunk.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 13:44

No, I actually don't care, Penny, and the way I was taught will be what I pass on to others.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 14:13

Then why even bring it up in this thread?

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 14:47

Because I agree with Disc and like his style. Much of what I have heard in AA I had heard in other places before I even came to the fellowship.

I know many people that came to AA because they wanted a more spiritual program. Some came because they thought it was God oriented. Others were atheists and it still works for them. Who am I to say that AA can be worked only one way?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 14:54

At some point you can distort or alter a philosophy so much that it no longer resembles the original belief system. How much, do you suppose, can you strip away from AA and still meaningfully call it AA? Because you are starting right with Step One (the very foundation that Bill Wilson says we must practice perfectly) when you claim that you have power over whether you take the first drink.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 15:26

As you know, Penny, when I came into AA, I had already put down the drink for three weeks. What I needed was help keeping it down and learning to have a life without alcohol. This is just my thought, but I am powerless when I take the first drink, not if. Once it gets in there, there are no assurances for me that I will have one or six. There may come that time when I am presented with a drink opportunity and I give into it. I hear about it often, even the champagne one I just referenced. This woman went through the death of her husband and an adult child, but never drank over it. She found a bottle of champagne in her fridge left by the sales agent, and she popped that cork. She cannot tell you why she did it.

I feel that I now can say no to the drink and I do it often. I am not so sure that was true in the beginning. It may not be true in the future, but today I have the power to say no.

We've got some meetings that JR and Anti argued with me were bad groups because they didn't support Intergroup. We discovered that an AA group doesn't have to do that. I really don't know what would have to happen beyond rewriting the literature that could happen to cause AA to delist a group.

Let's just agree that we disagree.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 17:04

Clara wrote: "I really don't know what would have to happen beyond rewriting the literature that could happen to cause AA to delist a group."

So a group can do and advocate pretty much anything as long as it does not change the sacred literature. This is the ultimate declaration of form over substance. The superficiality truly knows no bounds.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

becket's picture

becket

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 15:42

"At some point you can distort or alter a philosophy so much that it no longer resembles the original belief system."

From what I read here, this is how AA is devolving all over the country - in meetings and certainly in treatment centers.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 16:55

Would seem so. We had a meeting in MB where most of the members were on marijuana maintenace. It created a problem for our club, and they were invited to take their meeting elsewhere.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 17:16

Yet your club members no doubt sing praises to a man who advocated "medicinal LSD." The hypocrisy is amazing.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 17:26

Why is it hypocrisy? The Alano Club is a different entity than AA and has its own standards.

I have no idea what the club members think of those studies done in the 50s.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 17:40

Hypocrisy is generally defined as saying one thing while believing another. Your club members say that marijuana users have no place at the club, while at the same time promoting the words (and no doubt proudly displaying pictures) of a man who advocated the use of probably the strongest mind-altering drug in existence. It should be noted that Bill advocated LSD not for its collateral physical benefits, but precisely because of its intoxicating, psychoactive properties.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 20:53

I am not so sure of that, Penny. Besides, I can surely think of others that tried lsd that had lots of followers, too. One was in the White House.

The CLUB is a different entity than AA altogther, and it has rules. If you don't want to adhere to them, you can have your meeting elsewhere.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 21:03

Is there a big picture of Bill Wilson in the club? Of course there is. Did Bill Wilson advocate using LSD to help maintain sobriety? Yes. Are mere pot smokers on the MJ maintenance program allowed in the same club that displays photos of Bill Wilson? No. Is this hypocritical? Yes. Does the Club being a different entity than AA as a whole have anything to do with this? No.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

AARŌN (not verified)

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 17:43

"A recent comprehensive review from the Journal of Psychopharmacology discovered that people with chemical dependencies, specifically alcoholism, are far better able to overcome their addictions when aided by the use of LSD. A single dose of LSD was found to significantly improve patients' abilities to give up alcohol. Repeat doses could, according to the study's authors, be tremendously beneficial in helping alcoholics overcome the addiction entirely."
*************************************
"The study's findings suggest that LSD may also be beneficial to addicts of other drugs besides alcohol. LSD significantly alters a person's perspective, emotion, and sense of self. When these changes are coupled with a desire to overcome a compulsive behavior or addiction, they could produce surprisingly effective -- and often permanent -- positive results."

http://news.yahoo.com/though-still-taboo-lsd-offer-medicinal-benefit-add...

Bucket123

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 17:55

Hello Danny/ Lisa Marie

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 22:01

AA as in the Big Book and as an organization are just words (philosophy). AA as in the Fellowship is action (experiences).

You are trying to equate the two concepts, when they are obviously quite different.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 22:04

No, not at all. In fact, I explicitly distinguished the two. So I most certainly was not equating them.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Mon, 08/27/2012 - 22:06

AA as in the philosophy (words) is not greater than (or less than) the Fellowship as in the experience (action).

You are trying to make AA (organization) into something it is not. And you are trying to discount the lessons learned by the membership (people).

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