Orange-Papers 2012, a telling synopsis for the newbs.

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Sun, 08/05/2012 - 08:19

The record holder for comments on a blog here in 2012 is a blog on March 3; it had 558 comments. The topic was about all the trolls on this site, specifically naming two people. People that merely shared different views from what this site preaches. As such, they were targeted and gleefully hated on.

Second biggest in 2012? May 15, it was a very negative anti-A.A. blog. Again, hate mongers gathered in glee. Anybody opposing that view . . . targeted and hated on. Totaled 555 comments.

3rd was a blog I posted, July 7. Basically pointing out the fallacious anti filled arguments people had against A.A. I had just heard about this site a couple of days prior. Again, people gathered with gleeful hate. 446 comments. Since then the largest commented blog (209 comments) is about how I deleted my comments; much name calling, hate spewing, etc. towards me. I quickly realized that there is no logic here, merely A.A. hate.

I came here because I was hoping to receive positive alternative view(s). I understand A.A. is not perfect nor, is it for everybody. I say to each their own, whatever can keep you happy and sober. However, the major view here is not so open. It is merely negative anti-A.A. Anything which supports any anti-A.A. view keeps the cogs on this site greased and going. Anything in contradiction is viewed as cancer with blinded and unquestioned prejudice, regardless of the logic; and then there's the childish name calling: steppers, Wilsonites, the cult, etc.

Most have vowed to ignore me now. Which has made my visits here much more pleasant. I was seriously considering not even visiting; but it does contain an occasional good alternative view and much entertainment from the senseless logic, more than anything.

Just a little informative. Have a nice day : )

Comments

First-Things-First (not verified)

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 03:48

flannigan

Sun, 08/05/2012 - 11:59

What "blind conclusions"? You said in your post above that you came to this site "looking for positive alternative views". Alternative to what? In order to stop drinking/drugging one must stop drinking/drugging. If you have stopped drinking/drugging since Oct 14, 2010 you are no longer addicted. Congrats on your sobriety. Why would you need or want an "alternative" to stopping after almost 2 years of stopping? What exactly are you looking for?

Gunthar2000's picture

Gunthar2000

Sun, 08/05/2012 - 12:16

He's looking for that ever elusive state of serenity as described at AA meetings.

Unfortunately... Life doesn't work that way. We all have ups and downs.

AA is a religious cult dressed up to look like a treatment for alcoholism.

Gunthar2000

http://www.expaa.org/

Clara's picture

Clara

Sun, 08/05/2012 - 12:36

Of course we do. No matter how you get sober, the storms of life still have the potential to carry you away. It is how I weather them now that is different, and a great deal of serenity is gleaned from it.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

First-Things-First (not verified)

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 03:49

flannigan

Sun, 08/05/2012 - 12:25

Congrats on your sobriety and staying stopped.

Clara's picture

Clara

Sun, 08/05/2012 - 12:37

Thank you, Flan. It is a good thing.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Vicky345uk

Sun, 08/05/2012 - 12:43

If you are pro AA why would you be on an anti AA website site??? Personally I would not go on an pro AA web forum because it's against what I believe in. I love RFR forum it has not pro AA and its fantastic for me. All these pro AA people do make me laugh,because they say how wonderful AA is and try and convince people who already have been there how amazing it is.

Thank you Orange for taking the vail from my eyes and making me see what acult AA is.....

Clara's picture

Clara

Sun, 08/05/2012 - 12:52

I am actually pro anything that works for you to keep you sober. I have had a positive experience in AA but I agree that it isn't for everyone and no one should be discouraged from looking at what else is out there. I have never once tried to convince people of anything. If they tried it and didn't like, it doesn't matter to me at all.

Vicky, since you are a member of the RFR.com site, perhaps you should ask them why they want to go in numbers to AA sites and what they expect to personally get out of it? Another question then becomes why they feel no one should be on anti-AA sites and how a feeling of entitlement is rather silly.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Gunthar2000's picture

Gunthar2000

Sun, 08/05/2012 - 12:56

Your second question, as you have typed it, doesn't make any sense.

AA is a religious cult dressed up to look like a treatment for alcoholism.

Gunthar2000

http://www.expaa.org/

Clara's picture

Clara

Sun, 08/05/2012 - 13:15

I am sure you get it, Gunthar. This is just your way of acknowleging that you read the post but choose not to answer.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Gunthar2000's picture

Gunthar2000

Sun, 08/05/2012 - 13:16

It doesn't make any sense.

AA is a religious cult dressed up to look like a treatment for alcoholism.

Gunthar2000

http://www.expaa.org/

First-Things-First (not verified)

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 03:49

Vicky345uk

Sun, 08/05/2012 - 12:58

Hi Clara,

Look if I was a Jew I would not go to a mosque. If I was a Christian I wouln't go to a Buddhist centre. I am just confused. Clara why not go on a pro website so you are with right minded people and you can share your miracle with them. Please answer my question Clara why are you on a anti AA website???

Love and light

Vicky

Clara's picture

Clara

Sun, 08/05/2012 - 13:16

Okay, you wouldn't. I've actually gone to each of those things to learn. Nothing to be confused over, Vicky.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

First-Things-First (not verified)

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 03:49

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Sun, 08/05/2012 - 14:52

Be truthful Clara, you come here to argue and annoy people. It's your new drug and how you get your daily fix. If you were coming here to learn you would politely ask questions and respect the pov of others.

What's quite disturbing to me is that people periodically show up to the forum after reading the OP's and would like to discuss their participation. Some are very down, even suicidal (I have met a few) and feel quite put off by your constant ridicule.

You have been agreeable that people have different experiences but entirely disrespectful towards those that dislike AA. You have your live AA meetings and your AA sites yet you choose to spend your time fucking with people that had a problem with it. You stick around knowing that your harassment here keeps former members from talking through their involvment and perhaps healing. I was one of the people that found the OP and other sites helpful in my deprogramming and feeling better.

I really oppose your presence here Clara. I'll tell ya, when I talk to people who are trying to leave AA and are suffering serious depression and anxiety, I get more angry with you and others that come here only to be disruptive.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

Clara's picture

Clara

Sun, 08/05/2012 - 15:16

I listened to people's pov, and I was asked a great number of questions about mine, Avo. I get asked a huge number of questions that have nothing to do with AA, and I answer them. Good for you in your deprogramming.

I have asked others the very questions I get asked here as to why they go. They feel justified in going anywhere they want, even going to live meetings to "bomb" them. A party was on RFR.com and said she didn't feel welcome that, so she launched into her "I hate AA" tirade. Do you think when she leaves that she really has done more that create some eyerolls? Others want to call into shows, show up on sites, etc., yet they find a similar behavior to be upsetting and disturbing. People that found AA helpful or even enjoyable find that posters here try to talk them out of that. I've had people tell me that I am not even an alcoholic, and others discount how helpful I found AA to be in creating a new life.

Why?

Kehscience is the smartest person over there.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Sun, 08/05/2012 - 15:34

So your saying that you stick around here and interferre because some people go to AA sites and do the same. That doesn't make it right, it's just an excuse. I'd guess that most people that have gone to AA rooms to tell them off feel that they were harmed by the program. They are venting, which is reasonable after so many years of being lied to. You do it for a sick thrill.
Mass shooting in WI recently, is it OK because of the massacre in CO?

Btw, Kehscience is no longer posting there.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

Clara's picture

Clara

Sun, 08/05/2012 - 16:00

No, I just wonder why anyone that does that could find any fault with posters here. If they DO do that, then I would think they give up any right to an opinion on it.

Mass shoots are awful and never jusfied, Avo. As for anyone doing what the poster does, routinely seeking out AA meetings so she can give her schpeil, no, I have never seen it. It wouldn't be worth my while. You know that when she walks out, people shrug their shoulders and don't give it a second thought. After all, they are where they want to be. If she doesn't want to be there, fine.

Good for Kehscience. He was too reasonable and levelheaded for RFR.com.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

becket's picture

becket

Sun, 08/05/2012 - 19:28

Why would you not go to any of those places? Wouldn't you be curious about how they do things? Oh, I suppose you have left this cult. Sorry to have bothered you, "Vicky".

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

flannigan

Sun, 08/05/2012 - 13:00

You ask a very pertinent question- Why do AAers come to an "anti-AA" website? I have never understood the reason/motive for this interesting happening. Maybe some AAers who come here will enlighten me.

Clara's picture

Clara

Sun, 08/05/2012 - 13:18

I've addressed this for myself, Flan. I guess I would find it just as perinent to ask an Anti why they want to go in groups to AA sites for "a little mischief" even if Gunthar can't seem to understand the question. :~

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Vicky345uk

Sun, 08/05/2012 - 13:20

The question. Clara why???? I am in no way starting an argument at all but people very much dislike you on here. By coming on here how can that be good for your " recovery" and how is it feeding your soul????

Clara's picture

Clara

Sun, 08/05/2012 - 13:28

Vicky, I have answered your question, and I am not going to go further with you.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

becket's picture

becket

Sun, 08/05/2012 - 19:29

'Bye, "Vicky".

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Vicky345uk

Sun, 08/05/2012 - 13:22

I would never ever go on a pro AA website not even for mischief, I don't want to be around false people anymore....

becket's picture

becket

Sun, 08/05/2012 - 19:29

Good choice. Move on. See ya.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Conan's picture

Conan

Sun, 08/05/2012 - 13:27

comes into play

" Another question then becomes why they feel no one should be on anti-AA sites and how a feeling of entitlement is rather silly."

WTF is that meant to mean. If you can't speak English, just shut the fuck up woman.

Danny is currently "Rachel" - watch out folks, he's learned how to use a spell checker...lol

Clara's picture

Clara

Sun, 08/05/2012 - 13:29

I am sure you can understand, Conan, but don't waste any time to leap in there!

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Gunthar2000's picture

Gunthar2000

Sun, 08/05/2012 - 13:31

The question to you is simple... Why do you so frequently visit websites that are critical to what you believe in?

AA is a religious cult dressed up to look like a treatment for alcoholism.

Gunthar2000

http://www.expaa.org/

Clara's picture

Clara

Sun, 08/05/2012 - 13:36

Possibly for the same reason that you do, Gunthar. You haven't responded to questions, and I have already addressed this here many times.

Now, why don't we try to not make the board about Clara?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Gunthar2000's picture

Gunthar2000

Sun, 08/05/2012 - 13:49

to challenge the concepts that once had control over how I felt about myself.
AA made me feel miserable, so will continue to indict AA, and hopefully I can help someone to escape the cult in the process.

The difference between you and I is that you have certain principles, which you claim to live by, that are not a part of how you actually operate.

For example...

It is a spiritual axiom that every time we are disturbed, no matter what the cause, there is something wrong with us. If somebody hurts us and we are sore, we are in the wrong also. But are there no exceptions to this rule? What about “justifiable” anger? If somebody cheats us, aren’t we entitled to be mad? Can’t we be properly angry with self-righteous folk? For us of A.A. these are dangerous exceptions. We have found that justified anger ought to be left to those better qualified to handle it.

also...

AA is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization or institution; does not wish to engage in any controversy, neither endorses nor opposes any causes.

Your anger at folks who oppose AA is obvious. It's time to practice what you guys preach.

AA is a religious cult dressed up to look like a treatment for alcoholism.

Gunthar2000

http://www.expaa.org/

Clara's picture

Clara

Sun, 08/05/2012 - 14:54

To use some of the points given to me, why not let those sites appeal to those that want them? Could you just be angry that it works for them but not for you? The craigslist site isn't even an AA site, although there are many supporters, and they treat you as you treat AAs here. Yet you don't go. Why would you then invite people to leave this site even though the owner says any and all opinions are welcome?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Gunthar2000's picture

Gunthar2000

Sun, 08/05/2012 - 15:04

To use some of the points given to me, why not let those sites appeal to those that want them? Could you just be angry that it works for them but not for you?

No. I'm angry that a religion has hijacked an entire branch of medicine. People are dying because AA doesn't work at all.

Yet you don't go. Why would you then invite people to leave this site even though the owner says any and all opinions are welcome?

I would invite you to leave this site because you are peddling the same bullshit quack medicine that kept me in chains for years.

AA is a religious cult dressed up to look like a treatment for alcoholism.

Gunthar2000

http://www.expaa.org/

LisaMarie's picture

LisaMarie

Sun, 08/05/2012 - 16:15

Gunthar, AA has never been your problem, for christ sake. Grow up and stop with all this nonsense. I can understand you don't like AA, you feel AA doesn't deliver the goods you feel it promises. But to say AA, is killing people. This is reckless and quite frankly, showboating, if you are to ask me.

Gunthar2000's picture

Gunthar2000

Sun, 08/05/2012 - 16:20

that they are powerless to control their own behavior. That's one of the first things they teach you when you walk in the door. The powerless concept becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy driving alcoholics to drink themselves to death.

AA is a religious cult dressed up to look like a treatment for alcoholism.

Gunthar2000

http://www.expaa.org/

LisaMarie's picture

LisaMarie

Sun, 08/05/2012 - 16:37

My only argument with this statement Gunthar, is the BB is not teaching this, the misinformed in the fellowship are.
How can it be that I never got this understanding but you did.

Gunthar2000's picture

Gunthar2000

Sun, 08/05/2012 - 16:40

Are you saying that the powerless concept is not the foundation of AA's 12 step program as laid out in the big book?

AA is a religious cult dressed up to look like a treatment for alcoholism.

Gunthar2000

http://www.expaa.org/

LisaMarie's picture

LisaMarie

Sun, 08/05/2012 - 17:18

Exactly, I am saying that your concept of powerless is not the foundation of the AA's 12 steps program as laid out in the BB.

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Sun, 08/05/2012 - 17:22

Yes it is danny. First step, danny, read the first step.

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

Gunthar2000's picture

Gunthar2000

Sun, 08/05/2012 - 17:28

You don't believe this?

At a certain point in the drinking of every alcoholic, he passes into a state where the most powerful desire to stop drinking is of absolutely no avail. This tragic situation has already arrived in practically every case long before it is suspected.

The fact is that most alcoholics, for reasons yet obscure, have lost the power of choice in drink. Our so-called will power becomes practically nonexistent. We are unable, at certain times, to bring into our consciousness with sufficient force the memory of the suffering and humiliation of even a week or a month ago. We are without defense against the first drink.

AA is a religious cult dressed up to look like a treatment for alcoholism.

Gunthar2000

http://www.expaa.org/

LisaMarie's picture

LisaMarie

Sun, 08/05/2012 - 20:08

Now I hope you can understand this. This example is referring to someone who has already been drinking alcoholically.

becket's picture

becket

Sun, 08/05/2012 - 19:31

"No. I'm angry that a religion has hijacked an entire branch of medicine. People are dying because AA doesn't work at all."

I would like to see verifiable evidence of this, please.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Clara's picture

Clara

Sun, 08/05/2012 - 19:37

What I don't understand is that anyone would be angry that they were a part of AA. If a person decides it isn't for them, why not just find what works for you? It seems that people are pissed that they spent time in the rooms and think that AA should pay for that choice somehow.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Sun, 08/05/2012 - 19:45

Sigh. I know, I know. We have to keep going over this againandagainandagain. Not to worry, eventually you'll get it. AA has been shown to be ineffective repeatedly in studies, The World Health Organization reported that

"the mesa-grand study found evidence of ineffectiveness of 12-step facilitation from 6 studies and of ineffectiveness of Alcoholics Anonymous from 7 studies (109). An additional
systematic review of 8 studies found no studies that unequivocally demonstrated the effectiveness of Alcoholics Anonymous or 12-step facilitation approaches for reducing alcohol dependence or alcohol-related problems (133)."

http://www.euro.who.int/__data/assets/pdf_file/0020/43319/E92823.pdf

Tomorrow we can go over how alcoholism causes death. We can take these lessons as slowly as you need them to be.

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

Clara's picture

Clara

Sun, 08/05/2012 - 19:57

Dunno, C&E, but I have found support groups to be wonderful. It doesn't matter if it was AA or when I had to use ZyClara for skin cancer and was sick for months. Talking with others experiencing the same side effects helped alot. WHO can come to its conclusions, but I am free to come to my own, too.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Vicky345uk

Mon, 08/06/2012 - 05:46

Clara I just had to come back I missed you...... Anyway you have just said in your post about talking with others going through the same thing!!! Then why are you on an anti AA website who ain't talking the same thing you are?????

Would like an answer!!!!

LisaMarie's picture

LisaMarie

Sun, 08/05/2012 - 20:22

No C&E, the World Health Organization did not do a study that was any more significant than the rest that have been done. These studies are no more valid then you or I calling 5000 participants every week on a Tuesday for 10 years. Asking the same people, "are you still sober or not or are you witnessing a spontaneous recovery". Thank you, here is your weekly stipend of $80.00.

Another good point: http://www.green-papers.org/

Discussing Alcoholics Anonymous

Research on AA is always a challenge. Does AA have a high success rate, or do people just show up when they are ready to stop drinking? Does AA have a low success rate, or is that only because the more severe cases are attracted to AA? It is very hard to compare AA to non-AA people because AA is so accessible that most problem drinkers are likely to have attended at least one AA meeting. For these reasons, most responsible researchers will clearly state that research on AA is based on indirect evidence. So when Agent Orange quotes someone that "...there is a paucity of scientific studies supporting the superior effectiveness of AA," what he forgets to mention is that there is also not much research showing AA does not work. AA is simply a tough topic to research.

AA is a loose organization of many small, independent groups. The AA main office provides a suggested program of recovery, but there is no central authority. AA does not keep membership lists or collect dues beyond "passing the basket" at meetings (and no one is turned away for not contributing). AA is based on alcoholics helping each other: according to the program, in order to stay sober, experienced members need to help other alcoholics.

LisaMarie's picture

LisaMarie

Sun, 08/05/2012 - 20:29

Cause, everyone of your studies are about as valid as a bunch of 12th graders conducting the same studies from their cell phones. So give it a rest with your 7-8 studies. One of the studies you are referencing they had to pay the recipients $80.00 to take the call or visit.

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