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Sun, 07/08/2012 - 00:41
Becket, do you think that if a person believes in life after death, he will therefore, by virtue of his belief, experience life after death? Or do you think there is some underlying truth about the existence (or lack thereof) of an afterlife that holds true regardless of what people believe?* Can anyone ever be objectively wrong about anything?
*When answering, try not to get too caught up in this particular example, as I could have just as easily used another example.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
Sat, 07/07/2012 - 09:23
FTF said: "The God you refer to is the religion God. Different altogether.
FTF, so there are 2 gods, the religion god, and then the AA god?
Just exactly how many gods are out there? LOL. Every AA member has their own god?
That's quite a few gods wouldn't you say FTF?
Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®http://www.expaa.org/http://bereanresearch.com/http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMShttp://alcoholabusesolutions.com/
First-Things-First (not verified)
Tue, 07/10/2012 - 23:45
Sat, 07/07/2012 - 09:37
First-Things-First the cult of Alcoholics Anonymous is a Spiritual, not Religious cult and they claim to not have a "God" so they can con atheists into joining the fellowship and converting them to Bill Wilson chanters and prospect hunters to grow the cult.
Don't you realize that talking about "one God" in the cult of Alcoholics Anonymous you are guilty of the blasphemy!?
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
Sun, 07/08/2012 - 00:15
What are you talking about, JR Harris? Mention of "God" can be found throughout the Big Book. You really want to try to jam the religious angle down throats, don't you? Your bolded sentence above is ludicrous.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
Sat, 07/07/2012 - 13:41
"How do you square the above statement with the idea that you can pick whatever HP you want and expect that it exists in the capacity to perform the supernatural miracles for you that are required in Steps 6 and 7?"
Persephone In Exile
Sat, 07/07/2012 - 09:15
Helplessness of sobriety? I just feel that there should be great power in sobriety. Well, if you don't feel empowered by what you're doing, shouldn't you best start looking for another method that does make you feel empowered?
I'm perfectly willing to just say that this program just doesn't work for me, but this "power greater than yourself" business is at the heart of that. If you need that, that's fine. I just preferred to not turn anything in my life over to a power greater than anything humans can accomplish on their own.
Tue, 07/10/2012 - 23:46
Sat, 07/07/2012 - 09:50
Well, FTF, the only idea that comes to mind right now is to look to yourself. Once you accomplish what you are longing to accomplish, you will look back and see that all the power and strength you needed was something you already possessed.
Sat, 07/07/2012 - 13:40
"I thought to work a successful 12 step program you need a sponsor?"
Maybe you thought wrong.
Sat, 07/07/2012 - 08:22
FTF said: “I've been in an out of the program for years without experiencing any of the horrors many of you balk about. Can't say I've been successfully sober long-term over these years;”
Thanks for admitting that, FTF.
So AA did not work for you. I am not surprised. AA has a proven success rate of 3-5%. Even with god’s help. LOL!
Sat, 07/07/2012 - 09:21
First Things, the trouble is sometimes that the alternative isn't named or studied, and therefore no stats exist. I completely understand what you're saying about the numbers, but there are also great numbers of people who have successfully quit without either xA or an alternative program, and it's remarkably difficult to keep stats on these people. Surely not everyone who struggled with alcohol/drug addictions just died of them or ended up incarcerated--or got better with AA, NA or another established program.
Sat, 07/07/2012 - 10:57
Scientology "works if you work it", all it takes is "90 meetings in 90 days","don't leave until the miracle happens", "you just don't get it", "you must be in denial" or maybe you're just a "dry drunk" with a "Spiritual Malady?"
Why do you think that alcohol abuse requires the intervention of a cult? So why not try alternative cults like Scientology? Why not try something that isn't faith based on some weird god rituals and praying.
Sun, 07/08/2012 - 09:54
Besides, no one is concerned about the rate of people that just quit on their own. If everyone could do it, there would be no such need for things as rehabs or AA. i am interested in the success rates of those programs offered as alternatives to AA since they are so much 'better." What says that they really are?
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Sat, 07/07/2012 - 10:34
You are very smart about this, and I am glad that AA has such a reasonable attitude toward recovery. There are other options out there for you, but many won't pony up any stats to prove their effectiveness. People just want magic assurances on this board when nothing has that. What we often hear out there are just sales pitches. "You don't ever have to drink again!" is on the tv right now. That's right; you don't, and AA, SMART, RR will all tell you that. You DON'T ever have to drink again. How simple is that? But his program is no better than anything else out there, and it stilll depends on the individual to work it. How many times do people have surgeries that have some pretty interesting statistics? Why do they do risk it? Because they want to live and they could just be one of the lucky ones.
Sat, 07/07/2012 - 08:30
It's not about hate, it's about truth. Most of us have left (thanks for you obvious advice) and what Orange and many of us want to do is see that the lies don't continue. Leaving it all alone, as you are suggesting, is only your way of saying that we should go away and let AA and guru members continue to spread the lies.
"It works" = lie! "It's not a religion" = lie!
"We are powerless" = lie! "A Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity" = lie!
I could on all day.....
Alcoholics Anonymous is a religious organization and publication company. They want to covert and make money. That's it, a front to which they call a self help group and recovery fellowship for alcoholism. People go there because they want to stop drinking, not be proselytized and pressured into believing they have a spiritual malady that only a religious experience can conquer.
Ironic said it well, we have left so now that is what you should do.
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/
Tue, 07/10/2012 - 23:47
Sat, 07/07/2012 - 09:11
So funny, your "lmao" is a sure sign of your nervousness at reading all of the wisdom on this board. I love people, hate the organization. But it doesn't have to consume me, like the program gobbles up the lives of some brainwashed members. They keep them sick for life, always coming back and each day to seek the daily miracle. Sobriety is a non-action. To have it, we don't need to "do" anything. I'm free from the "disease", endless meetings, fake love, endlessly looking at my defects. I hope you find peace, wherever you look...
Sat, 07/07/2012 - 10:11
They gave, but unfortunately for us, you haven't yet contributed anything to this forum.
We have Clara and Becket, two of the most skilled trolls in America, running defense for AA. We already know all the bullshit slogans and excuses the program makes. Why do you feel the need to come here to repeat them?
You haven't asked about any alternatives, you just keep wanting to tell people they are wrong and defend AA. This is an anti/expose Steppism website. So again, why are you here?
Tue, 07/10/2012 - 23:48
Sat, 07/07/2012 - 10:45
You could use NARCONON and their weird Scientology rituals. Of course you could also use the cult of Alcoholics Anonymous with their pagan rituals that are directly against the Ten Commandments. The best way is to just stop drinking, no need to join a cult to do that.
See - "The Pagan 12 Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous breaking the Ten Commandments" http://orange-papers.org/forum/node/853
Sat, 07/07/2012 - 10:39
I am not skilled, Ironic. I just don't have hate in my heart for an organization that can help people. It didn't help you, but then you also still use, just not heroin. So what has helped you stay clean? BWHAHAHAHAHA. I just reread one of your posts from when I first got here where you were excitedly telling people that you were getting to try something new later that night. "I get to try..." I wouldn't expect anything would work for you since abstaining from recreational drugs isn't your goal. I am excluding physchotropics and the like from this.
Sat, 07/07/2012 - 20:02
That's p-s-y-c-h-o-t-r-o-p-i-c, Clara. Good thing I don't take medical/drug/any kind of advice from you.
Sat, 07/07/2012 - 20:16
Most medical people can't spell, so what of it? You didn't even know you could get hep with shared water, and I knew that. Of course, I have no practical use for the information, but I would think someone in the field would have known it.
Sat, 07/07/2012 - 10:35
Interesting. Why is LMAO a sign of nervousness? Heard it all day yesterday from people on this board, Avo.
Sat, 07/07/2012 - 14:12
The answer concerns when and how it is used. When something is actually sooo humorous, that you are busting a gut. Kind of like the below picture. It reminds me of a few of your comments yesterday, lmao:
"You also know why I operate closely with the protection of the law and why I am not only unafraid of knives, but that I have also used them" ~Clarahttp://www.orange-papers.org/forum/comment/45949#comment-45949
Sat, 07/07/2012 - 14:14
Always beware knife wielding AA ninjas, Avo.
Sat, 07/07/2012 - 19:54
You know, I have come to see that some people enjoy putting people in harm's way. I need to stop being so gullible about people. I actually believed that you did it unintentionally.
Sat, 07/07/2012 - 19:55
Avo, some people get 16 years in prison for doing things to people. I wish mine had been that lucky. After the IPs from the people on this forum are evaluated to demonstrate that his brother isn't behind it, I'll tell you the story. It's a wonderful mix of horror, poor judgment, reasons not to be a pillhead and having a mother that made Scott Peterson's mom look like a picture of acceptance.
Meanwhile, enjoy your laughs.
Sun, 07/08/2012 - 04:51
Orange, I insist that something is done about this crazy user. She has been threatening people with investigation by "field agents", multiple veiled threats of physical violence with knives and is now threatening investigation of individual members without their knowledge. Are you complicit with this lunatic Orange? If so, I think it would be only fair to say so and allow people to remove their accounts.
Tea Party madness has to be opposed!!!
Danny is currently "Rachel" - watch out folks, he's learned how to use a spell checker...lol
Sun, 07/08/2012 - 09:26
I didn't put it in motion, Conan. These were the choices and behaviors of a poor, lonely person that I have had very little contact with at all. In fact, I cannot recall once ever even responding to a post of yours. I could care less if it turns out to be some lonely guy in middle America. There is only one person I care that it ISN'T, and I discussed it with Orange. Remember too that there are posters here that post people's IP addresses that were not given to them, and that isn't appropriate here.
What would people prefer? Knowlege of investigation? Is that what was given to me? Why was the person so stupid that the threats exceeded what could have been limited to a state level? In case you didn't know, people are regularly investigated without their knowlege. My remarks were directed to one person that has done his best to harm my life due to an unfortunate incident that probably would have never happened without drugs. We were innocent people. If this person isn't you and you have done nothing wrong, you have nothing to worry about, do you? I have discovered that perhaps the purpose Orange plays in my life is for me to have disclosure and to be free of yet one more thing. And banning me wouldn't change anything, anyway. They don't need me to be a member here to do their jobs.
Honing in on a person because she found a lot of good in a fellowship is wrong, but there is no reason to allow it to become criminal. That was the choice of an adult person.
Sun, 07/08/2012 - 10:01
Can't you find a local 10 year old to help you with your English?
Sun, 07/08/2012 - 10:10
I am sure you can understand it perfectly, Conan, or you wouldn't be able to complain about it. You can always just not read my posts since they bother you so. But I could have been more economic with my words. How about that you are the one that stuck your foot into knee deep shit, so deal with it? It isn't Orange's problem nor is his cooperation needed. I am not going to interact with or bait you. I am going to do what an AA should do as well as a US citizen. You aren't a victim of anything but poor judgment and hate.
Sun, 07/08/2012 - 10:27
You're the one making veiled threats of violence, reports to "field agents" and having people investigated by authorities. Every bit of information printed on here was due to you telling everyone about yourself and where you live and what you drive and on and on. Every bit of information about you published on here is in the public domain or a matter of public record. May I suggest that, if you don't want people finding out about you, that you shut the fuck up!
Sun, 07/08/2012 - 10:42
Conan, you made your choices. Deal with it. You libeled a person, disclosed tags to cars I don't own and never did, said that there are warrants out for me when there are not , gave me names that are not mine... the threatening emails. You made these choices and it had nothing to do with anything I've posted. Now you are clutching at straws because of what you don't know about me. It's a risk you took. You are no different than Creed at Blabbermouth and your motives were just as evil. And all because a woman found a peace in AA that eluded you. You hate AA and anyone that was ever in it.
Now, post all you want. I notice that the people with more sanity and sense are not coming to your defense. You have an unwillingness to just let it drop right here and let it play out. That speaks more for your needs and personality than it does to mine.
Sun, 07/08/2012 - 12:35
No whacko there wasn't a disclosing. If it wasn't your criminal past you would not have known wtf any of it meant. Badumpump. Your obsessive responses outed yourself. Badump - lol. "A woman found a peace in AA" are you saying that's you? That's some peace you have. Ms Moorman.
Sun, 07/08/2012 - 13:05
Imagine being at an airport and the page requests that Mr. Vince Morman address the lost & found. All the men rush to lost & found and accuse the page of attempting to disclose there past. Oh no! Nobody but a knife wielding - paranoid AA that was guilty of losing there mind would arrive. Only in your world Madame Bisque lol.
Sun, 07/08/2012 - 14:04
Very true, Conan. When you kick the hornet's nest, you're bound to get stung.
Sun, 07/08/2012 - 11:46
Conan, you have a pretty low threshold for tolerance of others. Orange provides a forum for individual expression, that's all. If you're the same "Conan" as btnben's accomplice, you're just recently back here after a long absence; maybe you should allow for your eyes to adjust. You have one account to be concerned with, and that is your own. If you wish to discontinue your participation on the Orange Papers Forum, who's stopping you?
Sun, 07/08/2012 - 12:30
Is Clueless a member of the Deadly Viper Assassination Squad from Kill Bill W II : The Crazy 12 and 12?
Does she have a Hattori-Hanzo knife?
Sun, 07/08/2012 - 12:47
Why don't you just get a life?
AA is a religious cult dressed up to look like a treatment for alcoholism.
Sat, 07/07/2012 - 13:50
It's not about truth, it's about experience and drawn conclusions and development of personal reality, which may widely differ from the reality of the next person, which is just as legitimate.
This forum is about disgruntled and angry people who have banded together to reinforce one another's shared rejection of the 12 steps. Your realities are similar, therefore you find great comfort in calling this the "truth". It is, however, a collection of like personal truths, safety in numbers, all supported by some degree of indignation and rage. What is found on the Orange Papers Forum cannot be called a Universal Truth, because there is no such thing.
Sun, 07/08/2012 - 11:54
Thanks, Becket. It is just a meeting without coffee and cookies.
What is funny is that you can't even bring something really non-controversial onto this site without someone trying to turn it into one. Do recovered people really lives their lives like this? I mean, one post was about a shirt I was thrilled to find and someone tried to equate the line with child abuses.
Sun, 07/08/2012 - 12:00
"Truth" as in "truth as I see it"? I can buy that. I do not buy a One Universal Truth which exists outside of our perception.
Sat, 07/07/2012 - 08:41
FTF said: “It's key feature is that, "the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking.”
No, AA/12 steps “key feature” is find a “door knob” to remove your many “character defects” In other words, AA/12 steps REQUIRES the AA member to find god.
Simple. How can you not see that FTF? Do you have blinders on?