Can God miracle you to drink normally?

AA Big Book page 58 Fourth Edition

AA claim that Alcohol is cunning baffling and powerful and that without help it is too much for us.

AA then claim that God has ALL power. Then the 12 steps are suggested as a program of Recovery.

But there is not actually ANYTHING in the 12 steps about STOPPING drinking.

A question I have asked AA old timers before and have bought up on the OP letters page before, but nobody seems to be able to answer:-

If God can miracle you into being able to STOP drinking (provided you do the 12 steps and go to stepper meetings for life), why can't One who has all power just as easily miracle you into being able to drink normally?

My argument is that a Being with ALL power should, in theory, be able to miracle a person into being able to drink moderately, just as easily as he can miracle people into stopping drinking.

Why is there not a Return to Moderate Drinking Anonymous (RMDA) ?

Doesn't God like drinking? Jesus not only drank, but he changed all that water into wine at the Wedding Feast, so Jesus at least wasn't against drinking.

Come on Steppers can God only STOP you drinking, but can't make you drink normally?

And if God can't miracle you into drinking normally, has he really got ALL power or just limited power?

I think this question needs serious debate if you are going to make grandiose claims that the 12 steps can STOP (and only stop) you drinking

Comments

NoAAUK's picture

I know what the implications are only too well, Ive seen the people die, two of them were good freinds of mine and didn't deserve what steppism did to them

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

becket's picture

You're saying the two people died from chanting from the book of Matthew? Because that is what I was referring to. If you disagree you're going to have to be more explicit than this ^^ post.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

NoAAUK's picture

They died from the fearmongering lies and misinformation dished out to them by your satanic cult

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

becket's picture

1. It is not MY satanic cult.

2. They died because they killed themselves.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

live_free_or_die's picture

often times already depressed substance abuser.

And depression is the #1 cause of suicide, in humans.

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

becket's picture

How does AA "cause" depression? By suggesting that someone has character defects to address? Those who suffer lasting depression from this revelation need only to work through the character defects - with a sponsor, with a therapist, with a parent, with a trusted friend. It certainly does not lead to suicide. Suicide can happen when the depressed person fails to assume the challenge of the work ahead of him or her, and said person wallows in the non-life-threatening observation that something could be made better. It need not be done in AA at all.

Crybabies!

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

What do character defects have to do with depression? Not the blues, sadness, melancholy, or a bad mood-but depression. Clinical depression comes from character defects and can be remedied by talking with a friend or working the steps? Really?

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

becket's picture

You tell me. I've read on this forum that once the poor AA slob begins to get into the 4th step and character defects are revealed to him or her, it just piles up the fear and worry and anger and shame and guilt to the point where these sorry people are simply driven to hang themselves. Those with pre-existing depression are particularly vulnerable to the opinions of AAers who have been there either ten years or ten days longer than they.

Does that sound like bullshit to you?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

NoAAUK's picture

"Those with pre-existing depression are particularly vulnerable to the opinions of AAers who have been there either ten years or ten days longer than they."

When most of the general public view AA as beyond reproach and the experts on so called Alcoholism (instead of just a bunch of barmpot cult groupies), and courts are mandating people to it and nearly everbody is recomending it, newcomers to AA, probablly at the most vulnerable time in their lives are bound to be easy prey for the sicko AA truebelievers, whether the perdation is just standard cult indoctrintion or far more sinister predation.

You can't really expect me to believe you don't see this

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

character defects have nothing to do with depression. but the character defects Wilson describes "immoral, selfish", the alcoholic is a little god, wanting their own way. the character defects Wilson describe are the characteristics & symptoms of the mental illnesses of sociopath's & Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Wilson was describing himself. Gigi, I know how the hell does an AA member evaluate depression as a character defect? These people are truly dangerous.

patti

becket's picture

patti, no one is claiming that depression is a character defect. What has been alluded to is the fact that many posters here feel that upon entering AA, particularly when approaching steps 4 and 5, great anxiety and dejection appears because character defects (as described in the Big Book) are the focus of attention. It is surmised that many people become depressed over the illumination of their character defects and some even commit suicide over it. Please read the previous few posts again to get the actual thrust of the conversation.

Everyone who has ever been selfish or dishonest or self-centered is not a narcissist or mentally ill or a sociopath. It's clear you just throw these terms around without a clue as to how they should be applied.

Again: if an AA member evaluates "depression as a character defect", s/he is misinformed.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

AA claims that any negative feeling an alcohol addict feels is their fault because they are "sick", this includes depression. The stepper is to then pick themselves apart & realize it is their fault to feel any negative emotions, depression, resentment, annoyance, etc., etc, & it is their fault to feel these normal human emotions because they are "sick" & there is something always seriously wrong with them & they must blame themselves for this because they are "sick". Also they must tolerate any & all negative emotions from others because others are "sick" too & every & any one is sick, sick, sick & can't act human or normal or not be in a constant state of picking self & others apart. This is a depressing state of mind & action, people believe what they are told over & over, aka brain washing, being told over & over that one has character defects & is "sick" & must surround themselves with other "sick" people is a belittling, abusive, demeaning & inhumane & stupid way to think, feel & live. Abuse & belittlement cause depression, the AA member then depressed shares this @ meetings & is told it is their fault, they are sick & are not stepping properly & on & on a vicious cycle of insanity & abuse, the depressed gets verbally & mentally more & more battered. Already struggling with the extremely low self esteem of being an addict, then battered over & over by the unqualified & inhumane AA members & philosophy, this state of affairs would certainly push a depressed & vulnerable person over the edge & could easily cause suicide. You can AA tactic all you want & need to do, get off on arguing, get off on thinking any body any where gives a shit about you or what you write, deflect or lie about. Wilson was a definite narcissist, why wouldn't that word get mentioned constantly when discussing Wilson & AA, he is what he is, I'm not responsible that Wilson was a reprehensible piece of shit, immoral con man, manipulator & exploiter, it's on Wilson, he choose to be a piece of shit his whole life. Steppers are depressing, AA is depressing, it batters the human spirit, heart & soul, of course it causes suicide. All extremely unhealthy environments cause suicide, prisons, communist & oppressive nations & governments & a oppressive, repressive & seriously ill & unqualified religious cult such as AA. You can name call all you want, deflect, all those silly brain wash tactics, no one, absolutely no one gives a shit about what you think, feel or write.

patti

causeandeffect's picture

Patti, did I ever tell you I love your rants!?!

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

becket's picture

"AA claims that any negative feeling an alcohol addict feels is their fault because they are "sick", this includes depression."

Please show the class where "AA claims" such a ridiculous thing. You are so fuckin full of shit.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

causeandeffect's picture

No becket, it's very accurate.

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

Trisha K.'s picture

Well, Causy, thanks for your idea of evidence based studies ....or comments...lol.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

becket's picture

If someone has attempted to make anyone in the program feel like that, they are not practicing the steps as they were intended. That is a corrupt and polluted interpretation of AA. Instructions to behave this way toward another human being will not be found anywhere in the Big Book. This is horseshit.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Pennywise's picture

"It is a spiritual axiom that every time we are disturbed, no matter what the cause, there is something wrong with us." ~ 12&12 pg 90.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Pennywise's picture

"If somebody hurts us and we are sore, we are in the wrong also." ~ 12&12 pg 90.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Trisha K.'s picture

The point Bill is trying to make is if you hang on to anger, hurt feelings and a negative attitude then you are probably going to implode and fall back on your crutch.
I think another point needs to be made also, this book along with the Big Book were primarily written with the intent that the person reading was naive, new to sobriety. So there for Bill was trying to help someone he perceived was lost as he was. Some were and some were not as lost.
I am comfortable saying that most of the members here that have positive feeling about AA are not still holed up in a room at night reading the BB or 12n12. We got the gist of what Bill and others were trying to say.

*I took it upon myself to fill in around Penny's excerpts. I wanted everyone to see exactly what was written. You will find the excerpts Penny was referring to (down below pg 90 3rd paragraph)
----
( pg 88 bottom paragraph, last sentence carried over to pg 89)
This doesn't mean we need to wander morbidly around in the past. It requires an admission and correction of errors now. Our inventory enables us to settle with the past. When this is done, we are really able to leave it behind us. When our inventory is carefully taken, and we have made peace with ourselves the conviction follows that tomorrow's challenges can be met as they come.
----
(pg89 3rd paragraph carried over to pg 90)
Aren't these practices joy-killers as well as time-consumers?
Must A.A.'s spend most of their waking hours
drearily rehashing their sins of omission or commission?
Well, hardly. The emphasis on inventory is heavy only because
a great many of us have never really acquired the
habit of accurate self-appraisal. Once this healthy practice
has become grooved, it will be so interesting and profitable
that the time it takes won't be missed. For these minutes
and sometimes hours spent in self-examination are bound
to make all the other hours of our day better and happier.
And at length our inventories become a regular part of everyday
living, rather than something unusual or set apart.
----
(pg 90 2nd paragraph)
Before we ask what a spot-check inventory is, let's look
at the kind of setting in which such an inventory can do its
work.
----
(pg 90 3rd paragraph)
It is a spiritual axiom that every time we are disturbed,
no matter what the cause, there is something wrong with
us. If somebody hurts us and we are sore, we are in the
wrong also. But are there no exceptions to this rule? What
about “justifiable” anger? If somebody cheats us, aren't we
entitled to be mad? Can't we be properly angry with selfrighteous
folk? For us of A.A. these are dangerous exceptions.
We have found that justified anger ought to be left to
those better qualified to handle it.
----
(pg 90 4th paragraph)
Few people have been more victimized by resentments
than have we alcoholics. It mattered little whether our resentments
were justified or not. A burst of temper could
spoil a day, and a well-nursed grudge could make us miserably
ineffective. Nor were we ever skillful in separating
justified from unjustified anger. As we saw it, our wrath
was always justified. Anger, that occasional luxury of more
balanced people, could keep us on an emotional jag indefinitely.
These emotional “dry benders” often led straight to
the bottle. Other kinds of disturbances— jealousy, envy,
self-pity, or hurt pride— did the same thing.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

Trisha K.'s picture

Duplicate...

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

Trisha K.'s picture

"It is a spiritual axiom that every time we are disturbed, no matter what the cause, there is something wrong with us."

Since you are an atheist this would not appeal to you anyway, right.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

Pennywise's picture

Who cares? Whether it would appeal to me is irrelevant to the question of whether Patti is correct when she said AA teaches we are wrong whenever we are hurt.

And for the record, an atheist can be spiritual. Spirituality does not necessarily entail believing in supernatural beings.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

causeandeffect's picture

Exactly Pennywise. How odd, they don't even appear know the first thing about their own literature. Or is it they are just hoping that if they just deny it, it will be enough?

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

Clara's picture

In cases where I am hurt, I look to ask myself why I feel that way. I did that long before I ever got into AA. I wish I had realized long before that much of what a person does has nothing to do with me, so why am I hurt?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Pennywise's picture

That might be good advice if someone says something to you at work that bothers you. Would you give that advice to a rape victim? Does a rape victim even need to ask why she is hurt?

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Trisha K.'s picture

Where did a rape victim become involved. AA is not designed to deal with this sort of trauma nor is AA trying to make an attempt to have an answer for all the ails this world has.
Bill wrote literature that was directed at and for alcoholics, period.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

Pennywise's picture

A lot of alcoholic women have been raped. Some might continue to drink because of it. Those women might be looking for a way other than drinking to deal with this traumatic experience. Bill Wilson tells them that there is something wrong with them for being hurt, and then rubs it in a little more by telling them that they are not qualified to handle an exception to his rule that whenever we are hurt we are in the wrong. Patti's point stands.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

becket's picture

Yeah, yeah, Bill Wilson was a tool. No argument there. So why don't women today use their common sense? Are you suggesting that alcoholic women don't have any common sense?

Do you honestly believe that the aforementioned passage referring to something being "wrong" with someone who is feeling disturbed about something literally means that this person is defective? God, Pennywise. I'm surprised and dismayed at the narrowness of your view.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Pennywise's picture

No, I am not suggesting that. However, I'be seen this exact issue play out in meetings with abuse victims. I've also seen one woman leave the meeting in tears.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

becket's picture

It's gonna continue to play out this way because there is little uniform understanding of the issue. And also, people have different experiences and different opinions. I just don't get the primitive, rote version of the steps, which people gleefully twist to emphasize an opinion, nor do I understand contemporary AA with all its dog and pony shows going on day and night. It's like nothing I remember and nothing I would ever want to be a part of today. I'm sorry you have to go, and I hope it's over soon.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Pennywise's picture

Again, Wilson did not simply say that there is something wrong with us when we are hurt. I agree such a statement by itself could be interpreted a variety of ways. However, Wilson cleared up any ambiguity when he clarified that "[i]f somebody hurts us and we are sore, we are in the wrong also."

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Trisha K.'s picture

Penny wrote:
"However, Wilson cleared up any ambiguity when he clarified that "[i]f somebody hurts us and we are sore, we are in the wrong also."

Penny, he is referring to lingering resentments. You also refuse to acknowledge the Chapter being discussed is step 10. Step ten distinctly deals with resentments and how they can hurt an alcoholic.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

Trisha K.'s picture

....

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

Clara's picture

Justified anger is addressed in the BB, too. I don't think it is fair to look at one sentence in the BB and try to stretch it to cover your point. Anyone would be upset about that, but the point is to handle our emotions in a constructive way. It just as the screaming about how you always have something to do with... whatever. My sponsor told me to look for your part IF there is one. Often, there isn't.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

becket's picture

Would you say that feeling disturbed is something right, something to be striven for, something that need not be addressed and should instead be allowed to fester? This is a matter of language and interpretation. I believe your suggestion that Bill Wilson was saying we are "defective" because we are disturbed is so far off the mark it isn't even worth putting the microscope on.

I'm sorry for you.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Pennywise's picture

I thought about that myself. It's a good argument, and standing alone it might be persuasive. However, the clincher is when Wilson elaborates "[i]f somebody hurts us and we are sore, we are in the wrong also." That seems like an unequivocal statement that not only is there something wrong with us, but also that we are wrong.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

becket's picture

"However, the clincher is when Wilson elaborates "[i]f somebody hurts us and we are sore, we are in the wrong also.". That seems like an unequivocal statement that not only is there something wrong with us, but also that we are wrong."

This is the flower from the seed of self-inventory - he is inviting us to examine our own behavior to see if we played any part in it. The guy was a dick in the 30s, 40s, 50s - up until his death in, what, '71?, I don't think he had any insight into how broadly - and how absolutely narrowly - his statements would continue to be interpreted. You and I both know that there are circumstances where we were asking for it and other circumstances where we had nothing to do with the set up, that we got sucked into something without our knowledge or consent.

There are many, many things about AA that should change. The more vociferously people attack AA, the more they are going to tighten the ranks and refuse to change anything at all. That's the joke about this forum for me. Any good intentions are polluted by rage, disinformation, lies, conjecture, etc. Stalemate. Mexican Standoff. Nobody wins.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Pennywise's picture

No, he is not inviting us to reflect on whether we played a part in it. He's already made up his mind. Wilson didn't write "if we are hurt, maybe we were wrong." Rather, he made the unqualified statement that if we are hurt, "we are in the wrong also."

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Trisha K.'s picture

Bill is making a point, that by hanging on to resentments (we are sore) because someone hurt us (if someone hurts us), so if we hang onto this (we are wrong also).
Because in his mind this resentment was enough to set the alcoholic off again.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

Pennywise's picture

No, Bill did not say that we are wrong only if we hang on to our hurt. We are wrong by virtue of the fact that we were hurt in the first place. That is the plain meaning of the statement "[i]f somebody hurts us and we are sore, we are in the wrong also."

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Trisha K.'s picture

You have the information, use it as you wish.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

Clara's picture

Take back your power! If someone hurts me and I don't deal with it but hang on to it, then I AM in the wrong. I didn't need AA to tell me that. Sometimes the only role I have is what I do with the emotion dealt to me.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

causeandeffect's picture

Another quote to back that up the fact that wilson made on exceptions to our "wrongness" is

Sometimes they hurt us, seemingly without provocation, but we invariably find that at some time in the past we have made decisions based on self which later placed us in a position to be hurt.

So you see there is no exception to the rule in wilson's world. You're wrong no matter what.

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

Pennywise's picture

Thanks, C&E!

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

causeandeffect's picture

You're welcome Pennywise. There just isn't any wiggle room there for any kind of extenuating circumstances.

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

Clara's picture

Sounds like a professional victim to me. That, I am not. There are people out there, and even here, that look for any reason to be offended, angry or upset.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

alkieanon's picture

"... decisions based on self ...." So what about decisions based on [fill in the blank spot]? Not quite so black and white now. Exceptions to the rule. Plenty of wiggle room for interpretation.

Beckett,
you can lie all you want to your self, in written words on this forum, in person to any one that is willing to let you speak to them, but the truth is the truth, AA & it's insane philosophies, practices & steps, the unqualified, insane & stupid, stupid & inaccurate analyzing they force members to do, the endless unqualified diagnoses, all of it is majorly fucked up & dangerous. Look @ you, you are the epitome of the insanity of AA. go away.

patti

Trisha K.'s picture

Maybe, you should hold on till she comes back?

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

Pages