Isn't This an exposing Anti AA site?

I've got to give you 'cred, Massive. Those fucks (I hope I may call them "fucks" on here. LOL) have bothered me too. In the past, I would just make a post, then ignore their shit, because I knew that anything I posted would be used as fodder by them. They would make attacks, and I'd ignore. I don't think I ever really acknowledged them much, if at all. I figured that was the best way to handle "trolls." However, from what I have observed, and have been reading lately (as regards clarietta, becket, et al), the disruptors' behaviors indicate that they are here to do NOTHING BUT DISRUPT AND MAKE FUGLY COMMENTS AND ATTACKS TOWARDS ANYONE AND EVERYONE WHO DOESN'T GIVE THE AA RELIGION A GODDAMNED BLOW-JOB. A-hem (clears throat). I dig Orange, and it's certainly his site to run as he sees fit. I totally respect that. I do agree with you, as regards the DISRUPTIVE, SHITHEAD, SICK, TWISTED FUCKS, WHOSE ONLY DESIRE IN THIS LIFE SEEMS TO BE TO FUCK WITH OTHER PEOPLE ON THE ORANGE FORUM. Thanks for putting your thoughts out there, Massive. Peace.

Massive,
First the work you do is astounding & this really hits a nerve, especially for Clara. When it comes to you Clara's posts have nothing to do with wonderful serenity. All I can write is the 3 of them being here are a good thing in this respect, anyone thinking about leaving AA & feeling apprehensive & afraid that going back out there may kill them but simultaneously realizing AA is an insane & weird little world, the 3 do serve the purpose of exposing AA's insanity. Especially Clara, the deflecting, not answering, the inconsistencies, it is good she is here for anyone ready to deprogram, she gets called on it all instead of being thanked for sharing!
The three of them represent AA & validate the insanity for a doubting member & are validation to a member that they have been interacting with delusional & realistically challenged people.
Keep up the good fight, they are just children with nothing better to do than stomp their feet because they don't feel they are getting their own way, they are not convincing or controlling anyone here & they are convincing current AA ers to run, flee, get out & get their minds & life's back!

I don't think Orange is quick to ban anyone due to issues of freedom of speech. His views on censorship are there for everyone to see on the Orange Papers. He is not going to ban ANYONE if he can help it. Certainly not anyone with a pro AA view.

I don't think there is a problem if you have a pro AA opinion. It's how you present yourself and put your opinion across that matters. Verbal abuse doesn't wash.

Ask yourself, just before posting to someone, would you do so in the same manner if you were in the same room as them? If the answer is no then don't post.

Ban trolls, not pro AA'ers.

Don't forget. There is always the option not to read or respond to the posts of the people that piss you off.

Orange, throughout the years of answering letters, adopted a laudable "no censorship" policy. When he proposed to carry this forward to the forum I think everyone was in agreement. Steppism just can't stand up to rational investigation.

However, the almost "chat room" like way the forum has developed has thrown up certain unforseen problems. The posters mentioned above are a pain in the ass, no doubt, but is banning them all the answer? Danny and Marietta have been banned before and, common sense dictates, banned is banned, so get rid of them - no problem.

Clara's is a different situation. Insensitive but not abusive; dumb but not offensive - I think Clara's presence can only highlight what is wrong with AA. It's a nuisance getting Claraed (as Penny was yesterday...lol), but maybe we could work out a rota or something and take it in turns to take on Clara. With the number or regulars everyone's "Clara Day" would only be about once a month. Just an idea...lol

It's up to Orange if he wants to ban them or not but simply ignoring them would have more effect. There is no point having any dialogue with a retarded liar.

"Why should I have to put up with their crap after all the crap I put up with in AA. I come here thinking I finally find a place where I belong and what do I find? AA lovers. WHY?"

The world and almost all the people in it - are not here to please you or keep you happy, nor are they going to stop or start doing or saying anything other than what they believe to be in their own best interests.

And the reactionary "AA and the people in it are manifestations of SATAN - they must be exorcised from the forums....." - as your head spins.

I myself I thought about how Bill Wilson gave a description of the three types of Alcohol Addict, the moderate drinker, the heavy drinker and the total arsehole drunken nasty shit - the intractable case.

I thought "This is an interesting perspective - and if he had not have written it, it would not have given me food for thought - as I have a neighbour who fits the description and he lays around all day pissed out of his mind, and he has been cracked down on by the authorities so many times, that he no longer willing to cop the shit from having his friends around "trashing the community". He is such a malignant and destructive person and such a leech on everyone, even the temperate drunks don't want to have anything to do with him.

So he lays on the floor, all by himself drinking himself into oblivion - and while I had tried to be nice to him and encourage him, he has absolutely NO intention of stopping being a BAD influence or to stop drinking.... So his he has almost nothing left and the only thing he can do is keep drinking and he is so far gone that he will soon be dead....

AA and the people in it - it's not ALL of a complete write off...

The 12 steps of recovery - it's HIGHLY dysfunctional, and lopsided to the point of just about tipping over with mystical bullshit - BUT it's not ALL bad.

"We alcoholics were an undisciplined lot"

Well is that true or not?

How many of us in our using STUDIED and STUCK TOO the structured life style of intensive studying of WELLNESS, and MANAGEABILITY and the application of the research?

"We were insane"

Well if your using is out of control, and your not doing anything about it, and your life IS horrible and getting worse, and there appears to be no way out - and if your not studying ways and mean to make yourself and your life structured and manageable, and if it's available and you refuse to use it?

What else can that be called except being insane?

The failure to compare? OK so AA and the basic text is essentially a failure - but what within the basic text is genuinely BAD, and what is genuinely GOOD, and have you drawn up a list of these things and DONE the good, useful and practical things and or improved upon them - and either done the opposite to the BAD things?

Have you compiled a list of service providers who CAN help you to become MANAGEABLE and STRUCTURED in your daily living? Do you have a workable plan? Are you following it?

A small business management course? Some may say "Ahh what has THIS got to do with HEALTH and WELLNESS?"

Life is actually a business that requires MANAGEABILITY and STRUCTURE.

If your income drops below your expenses, then your out of food, fuel, lighting and accomodation.....

Where does manageability and structure come in here?

If your income generating capacity is impaired through poor health, which comes about from drug use, eating shit and the lack of exercise - and the failure to make and attend medical appointments - and if your health becomes bad enough, then you can't earn a living.....

Where does manageability and structure come in here?

And your failing to take advantage of opportunities that come your way, and increasing your customer service and sales, through the lack of time, resources, expertise, and business management skills, then that too is a sign of bad management.

Where does manageability and structure come in here?

So getting drug free and getting your life on track - there are LOTS of resources - but if you do not apply yourself to the practice of INVENTORY, the analysis of your life, skills, resources and earning capacity, your relationships - AND all of the finer points driving them AND the opportunities to capitalise upon them.... Then what is that called? Being smart or being an idiot? Smart people generally get themselves ahead in life and the idiots usually do a great job of railroading themselves into side lines.

And getting into emotional health or mental illness..... What are you doing about that?

Bill Wilson ripped off Dale Carnegie's work, being summed up in "How to quit worrying and start living."

Carnegie recommends that the people conquering worry and getting their life on track, undertake the process of self analysis or inventory - but have you gone and bought or downloaded his book and studied it and taken the directions.

The spot check, the daily inventory and the annual house cleaning..... Carnegie wrote it and Wilson copied it.

All chaotic and insane people NEED structure and manageability, but do they or will they or can they chase this issue for all they are worth?

"Ohhhhh gotta go get wasted - fuck paying the rent I can do that later...... Awwww we are now homeless." followed by "I am not unmanageable - I don't need to do INVENTORY or TAKE DIRECTION."

Structure and manageability - priorities, consequences and outcomes. Where is the list?

Just because people are or may be perceived to be, AA zealots isn't necessarily a BAD thing, some of what the perhaps one eyed of AA may say, could be complete shit - guaranteed - but if your smart, you can think about it, perform an inventory or analysis on it, and then do the opposite.

You NEED contrast, you NEED good information and you NEED bad information, you need to think about things, you NEED expert advice if in doubt, you NEED a variety of inputs, you NEED to think about the outcomes of the decisions and actions.

So if your saying these people ARE bad people and shit canning them outright is just fine - I call that failing to capitalise upon the opportunities that they present - to do, to not do, or to find better ways and means, by comparing what they have to offer with other similar orientations.

Jesus,
Disagree, you are just wrong, Massive is no drama queen, the issues that motivate her to act, including posting on this forum are real & dangerous & are not just about pissing & moaning. She did not make herself upset, as you are not responsible for making yourself upset about your Mom. Also Massive does a lot more than just express her opinions. Yeah, can we learn from AA members, sure we can learn not to be like them, not to be them & are reminded not to behave like them. It's normal to reach a burn out point & say no more, nothing wrong with that.

I do not agree that Clara serves any purpose. Because she is not a pro AA stepper with a different opinion. Clara lies all the time, and misrepresents what people say all day long. For new people coming on they dont know what a habitual liar she is. She is incredibly passive aggressive, and those of that choose to engage her are really part of the problem.

Many people are leaving OP because of the trolls. You have to wonder about those that continue to waste their time constanly engaging a person who has ill intent, and continually derails threads. Do you really think derailing is good? No it sucks, and they have a field day doing it. Many here just enable it as well. Ignoring is the best answer.

This is a blog. These people can not be heard. They can only be allowed to interrupt the discussion, twist words and manipulate; if you read what they write, take it seriously and reply to everything they say. There are ways to address their lies without responding to them directly and engaging them.

Anti Denial says; Clara lies all the time, and misrepresents what people say all day long. For new people coming on they dont know what a habitual liar she is. She is incredibly passive aggressive, and those of that choose to engage her are really part of the problem.
JJ says; Theres a personal attack right there. A big one! Has Clara ever said that about you? And as far as passive aggressive goes, lol you have got to be kidding! You are the queen of that. What is your true beef with AA? I have said many times before what mine is but what is yours? People hanging out in the park by your house? You people from ST just want this to be a big Anti AA high five session. Thats how it was over there and you know what? That place got real stale. If there was no difference of opinion allowed, Oranges forum would fizzle and be extremely boring to most. What is your experience with AA anyway? Please tell us.

wow what would Hey Zues say ,lol.

I agree what has been said about Clara. Out of the three Clara at least seems to be a kinder AA kool aid offering soul, which maybe makes her the more dangerous one ,IDK. She has the hook of AA set deep in to her very being, she does deflect and simply does not answer questions with her own voice ,yet uses the voice of one who has forsaken themselves for the group think of AA. Ah the safety in numbers will never let this BB be pryied from my hands even after death, lol.

She does not come across as a mean ,nasty human being, though she comes close to the fence, after all she is human and has to have a point where her button certainly get pushed. It is apparent that the years of study-ing AA like jo-hovah witnesses study the bible and take every letter to be written by the hand of God , that she will never do anything that even slightly resembles an honest answer in her own voice ,but will only use the voice that her AA ,BB, the 12 will allow her to have. As a lurker of long here on the OPF, I have no desire to be led onto and down the path of circular logic ,that really is the obvious picture of a serpent chasing its own tail. There is no room for any others opinion there will never be any real discourse on a truthful and frank discussion about AA with her . I think she gives a good representation of what can happen to a person who "wants what they have " and honestly there is nothing wrong with that. I just choose not become invovled in a conversation with her .

Orange has banned Trace LIn / Danny , Perplexity/Danny ,and Danny / danny and if you notice this person just keeps popping up like the same cockroach that was just squished by your foot a few seconds ago. I believe thru the programs like "hide my Isp" that it is impossible for Orange to ban such a person like Trisha K/Danny . And my goodness it is not hard to see this person in their various incarnations. Danny can not hide himself , his threats ,anger , vindictiveness ,his misuse of words , how he posts attacks that are just insane. Most of his posts have no redeeming value what so ever. I think he just likes to see his hateful, and lunacy filled posts in print .And after TK/D posts he runs to his safe place all the while rubbing his hands in glee , I can only imagine it as a sick cerebal masturbatery ritualistic thing that he does . All the while chanting I just showed them over and over to themselves .It is funny though that he cannot post his words of deciet and lunacy in his own name , because he has been banned in his own name,lol. Therefore he never gets the full release of the pleasure that he seeks. The TK/d is quite sick, as we are all very much aware.

You must realize that if you have based the foundation of your life on something like AA, and god forbid ,that a site like this that speaks of AA in very unflattering and truthful terms will cause these rabid kool aid drunk unfortunates to bark out in ways that most people abhor in polite conversation. Anti AA conversation destorys the very foundation that these folks have built their lives ,house of cards, insanity upon. Trisha K is laughable. If you haven't realized that Danny /Trisha is too much of an idiot to be able to truly hide themselves , and that they will always be discovered and outed , then you need to also realize that the joke is certainly on them. And it is really very funny if you give it any thought ,albeit very sick.

I have no problem with Clara ,she gets hers daily. TK/D offers nothing and is a prime example of a sick sociopath that could be sitting next to you in a meeting. Just salivaiting as they view a new prospect to indoctronate into the ways and means of their own interpetation of AA and my God for those poor newbies I scream at the top of my lungs run for your life. I hope they keep posting as distracting as they are , TK/D being more so , because they give the whole AA is a cult thing and Anti AA folks more fodder for the case that AA is absurd . Danny /TrishaK ,and all the pro AA trolls give more validity to the Anti AA beliefs and cause than they will ever know , they are simply just not that smart to be able to comprehend this fact ,and for this we should be grateful to them ,lol.

sure I am going to hell in a bucket , at least I am enjoying the ride.

It often surprises me how often I get portrayed as a person with little serenity, yet I read these posts out of people that would tell you that they are happy. It surprises me how often blogs or polls are dedicated to the "Clara problem." I can come to the forum in any morning and find my name prominently features. Massive does do a great deal of "work" but I have often questioned how worthwhile it is, but not necessarily her sincerity. For example, her "Make AA Safer" Workshop. There may be an element of truth in it, but it really serves as a vehicle to disclose the programs that she find more preferable.

Anti has been on a rant for a long time about a meeting that has taken place for decades in a park in her local. Despite teliing others that it is worthless to contact AAWS in NY about the problems encountered in AA, she gave a humorous screech over Easter when she accused me of stalking her, calling people in her home town to ask questions about her, this nameless faceless person on a board, and that she called the police and AAWS in NY to report me, yet another somewhat nameless and faceless person on the board. All this over a trip that had been planned for months before I ever came to OPF. I was baffled, but I accepted another poster's view of her hysteria as a game someone played. I had asked Anti for suggestions as to how the meeting could be improved to her satisfaction, and it finallly came out that she wanted it gone altogether.

Then what about all of the personal asides toward any AA? The counting of their posts, posts for days over their types, the suggestions toward them personally... Why not just leave it to topic? How useful are thoe things? Is no one going to admit that they do these things? Scheduling days to harrass a poster because you feel OPF is "your turf?" This is childishness out of people that might otherwise consider themselves to be pretty savvy folks. It's Orange's turf, and he has put out the rules adequately. Principles before personalities makes perfect sense, AA or not.

And now back to our regularly scheduled program.

Maybe we could change that Flannigan! No time like the present!

Aside from all of the posts on other behaviors on this blog, I absolutely stand behind not being able to monopolize any meeting just to bitch about another program. The facilitator was right in telling you to develop some other kind of group for your problem. It sounds as if people think they can go to meetings and discuss just anything they want - slights from another program, child abuse, sexual abuse, how my shoelaces don't match... only to THEN complain further that the facilitator or moderator put the kibosh on it. I come away from some of these blogs thinking that all the person wants to do is bitch or complain. The subject or venue doesn't matter.

AD-
What my comment on returning "to the regularly scheduled program" meant to say was- I enjoy reading the Orange Papers and OPF; they are both informative and entertaining. I dislike the name-calling and trash-talking but since this is an open forum, it is easier for me to just ignore the not so pleasant posts and not respond. I believe all beliefs, opinions, and points of view have a right to be expressed on OPF. I think we should all try to be civil. Just my opinion.

I think it's a bit unflattering to post a blog topic that degrades another website owner's decision to run it in such a way that he pleases (in the forum the he provides to boot). I’m trying to be fair and respectful when I say this too. I have a lot of appreciation and gratitude for your efforts and accomplishments raising an awareness to matters of such importance. If I’m going to support those aspects I feel the need to express myself on my disagreements as well.

Why should you "have to put up with their crap after all the crap I put up with in AA?" here in the OPF... You don't have to. You are making a choice to come here and subject yourself to it. My guess is that the reason that you do is because a lot of others choose to participate here and you want to interact with them. That's fine. But to come here and not only seemingly insult the man that allows all of us the privilege of expressing ourselves is in bad taste. In my opinion of course. That is, if this is an aspect to what you generally oppose it's hypocritical to not allow it yourself. It's like being a kid and listening to my parents. When I have a home and pay all the bills and take the responsibilities then I can make the decisions concerning it. I otherwise have to abide by it.

Furthermore you have used his forum in the past to spread news about your agenda and are again using it to advertise your own blog where we can all go and get serious about the "whole anti AA thing". It just seems a diss seeing that Orange has in the past explained his position. More than once. Perhaps people just want to come and yap about AA and aren't interested in spending every waking moment exposing it. I imagine there are a ton of people that want to move on and not have AA be a significant part of their lives anymore. It is very AAish to not allow others adverse opinion. When we go to meetings we are not "allowed" to speak our real feelings and thougts, ask questions.

This is not to say that I don't get bothered by the trolling myself. I get frustrated by the personal attacks, obvious derailing, etc. I would probably run things differently if it were me and allow for privacy to those that want it but since I am not the regulator I either need to respectfully accept it or disassociate myself with the forum for a while.