Are You Safe in an Alcoholics Anonymous Meeting?

Submitted by AntiDenial on Sat, 05/19/2012 - 17:15

The safety problems in AA and NA are starting to be getting more attention!

Are You Safe in an Alcoholics Anonymous Meeting?

Written by Laura Tompkins May 17th 2012

How many steps are there? Twelve, right? Wrong. There are Thirteen. "Thirteenth-stepping" is a euphemistic term used among members of Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) to refer to people (particularly men) who target new, more vulnerable members (typically women) for dates or sex.

Previous research suggests that women frequently experience sexual harassment in 12 step meetings.

Just the fact the term "thirteenth-stepping" exists serves as a warning.

Since thousands of convicted felons are mandated to AA by the US courts, this warning must be heeded.

Entire article-

http://pacificpalisades.patch.com/blog_posts/are-you-safe-in-an-alcoholi...

Comments

becket's picture

becket

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 18:13

No, I do not read any pro-AA site. After ten years of AA I pretty much know what the questions and answers and topics would be there. However, you apologize and yet you fail to provide a link. Wanna try again?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

AntiDenial

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 18:27

I meant sorry- do your own very easy to find on the web and pro AA sites research. Anything I would provide would be a waste of my time, because you would not take it seriously. Wow- well if you did go on pro AA websites you would learn what I am talking about. There is a topic you have not seen yet. It is spoke of more recently because it is a growing burden for AA and Churches.

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AntiDenial

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 11:32

In The Mental Health Courts to be "qualified for acceptance" you MUST have SERIOUS mental disorders such as paranoid skizophrenia, bipopolar disorder or skizoeffective disorder! Plus drug or alcohol problems with a crimnal history. Yes these people need help! But AA/NA? No way people! Should 14 year old girls be sponsored by nut cases? NO way! Does AA say they cant? No way! It is a free for all!

We speak about these dangers and articles related to it at www.nadaytona.org

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Trisha K.

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 12:36

This is your concoction of what you think is going on. Anti your thinking has always been warped and hostile. Please step back and realize the confusion you are creating by these stories you write.
You seem to take an isolated incident and multiply by a 1000 after every story you hear. Come on Anti, be fair.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

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JR Harris

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 12:34

From what I have read, any and all AA members are encouraged to go out on a "seek and destroy" mission to break down the ego of its prospects and force compliance and join the hunt for Alcoholics Anonymous prospects. It does not matter where these prospects come from, be it jails, prisons, institutions or abusive teen camps, they are all turned into prospect hunters for the AA faith with no age or bag limit.

What was the youngest prospect that you tried to mentor Danny?

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

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causeandeffect

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 17:50

http://stinkin-thinkin.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/ATTACHMENT_TO_TOPI...

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causeandeffect

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 18:08

dupe!

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btnben

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 17:55

A perfect example of AA taking zero responsibility. I've already added that to the documents to be circulated to external agencies. There really is no getting out of that one...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

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Trisha K.

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 18:21

It is the parents responsibility, hence minors.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

AntiDenial

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 18:30

It takes a village......

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AntiDenial

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 18:36

It takes grownups/AA World Services to take responsibility for their actions that directly impact minors.

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becket's picture

becket

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 18:58

Does it take a village of grownups or a village of minors? Just trying to keep up.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

AntiDenial

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 19:01

Have you heard the expression it takes a village to raise children? That means the grownups in the village becket.

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becket

Mon, 05/21/2012 - 21:10

You are one humorless dame, antidenial.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

AntiDenial

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 18:06

C&E- Damn you are good! The facts, nothing but the facts! This is so incredibly incriminating to AA World Services to there complete total lack of taking any responsibility for the sexual abuse of minors that has been happening for decades. They are down right criminal to have knowledge of this sexual abuse, financial abuse etc, and yet continue to invite all the minors they can get their claws into, to come to meetings. They even have in literature guilt tripping parents that might have misgivings about sending their children to a meeting. Pieces of shit they are.

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causeandeffect

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 18:17

Thanks AntiDenial. I'm glad to see you back, BTW. Yes, I had 2 links to that, the original and the one Ilse saved (damn she's smart). The original version is now a broken link. In other words, it's gone. I wonder why....

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AntiDenial

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 18:52

C&E- Thanks! I know AA was none to happy to have that internal memo linked! I have sent it to many people. I think it is raising eyesbrows at the very least if not down right disgust. Maybe one day we will see the CEO's being taken out of AAWs in hand cuffs for being an accessory to child abuse.

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becket

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 17:44

In cases of comorbidity, what would be the harm in adjunct treatments?

"The high rates of comorbid psychiatric disorders in patients with alcohol-use disorders require that alcoholic patients undergo careful psychiatric evaluation. However, the diagnosis of a psychiatric disorder in the context of alcohol dependence is complicated by the interactive effects of heavy drinking and psychiatric symptomatology. Similarly, the treatment of alcohol-dependent patients with comorbid disorders is complex, because these patients require help in becoming abstinent from alcohol concomitant with stabilization of their comorbid psychiatric symptoms. Such efforts are important, because untreated psychiatric illness in alcohol-dependent patients is a source of added morbidity and mortality, both directly and by increasing risk for continued heavy drinking. Although additional studies are needed to evaluate the optimal combination of psychotherapy and medication for use in various comorbid subgroups, we have described a number of promising approaches to the treatment of the most common comorbid psychiatric disorders in alcoholics. Despite the difficulties inherent in treating alcoholics with comorbid psychiatric disorders, clinicians can obtain valid diagnoses and deliver efficacious treatment to these patients." ~ http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh23-2/144-150.pdf

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

AntiDenial

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 18:13

Because Psychiatrists will put patients on much needed medication, just to have AA/NA members tell them not to take it, and to blow off their therapists. On one NA website in a paragraph to professionals, it actually admits that there is for unknown reasons a distain for the professionals by NA members.

Also the message of the 12 steps in the first place is very, very unhealthy for the mentally ill. They are much more vulnerable to the mind games of crazy practices like sexual inventory confessions and looking at all of your character defects.

Depending on the mental illness, it brings danger to other members who might not be aware of their mental illness.

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causeandeffect

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 18:25

And here's some really interesting correspondence between the DAF (Drug and Alcohol Foundation) in England, and one of Clancy's cloned groups, where they were complaining of people with co-morbid disorders being pressured to get off their medication.

http://aacultwatcharticles.blogspot.com/2011/12/transcription-1.html

That group tried to gloss over what was going on, but they refused to drop the anti-med stance.

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"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

AntiDenial

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 18:48

C&E- I read that link. That is quite damaging to AA as far as telling people to not take meds! There you have it in black and white. What an incredible twisting of words to justify to tell people to go off medications! It makes my heart break for the mentally ill, that are being treated in such a manner.
That is a very important link! AA Cult Watch is doing a fine job! AA Sucks....

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becket

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 19:01

I'd like to read your deeper description of how each different mental illness that might present in an AA meeting could be negatively impacted by the 12 steps as written in the Big Book.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

humanspirit

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 12:09

Isn’t the main problem with 12 step groups the huge personal power imbalance, which makes exploitation (sexual and psychological) infinitely more likely to happen? Newcomers are taught to look up to other member of the group simply because that person has more ‘sober time’ or because they are regarded as ‘working a good program’. Neither of these things indicate trustworthiness, decency, or competence in any way whatsoever, but this is how it is presented within AA.

The sheer madness of the fourth and fifth steps, where vulnerable people are told that they can only remain sober by telling all their deepest personal issues to an unqualified AA member (who may well be completely incapable of handling such information in any proper way) is absolutely appalling.

Properly qualified professional therapists, doctors, psychologists, etc. are subject to codes of professional ethics and confidentiality precisely because the potential for exploitation and personal manipulation is huge when an individual is trying to work through their most deeply personal issues and is revealing their innermost secrets. They can be struck off from practising if they overstep (no pun intended) professional boundaries, if they breach confidentiality, if they enter into a sexual relationship with a client, etc.

No such checks exist within AA, where complete amateurs and untrained people are able to assume this position of personal power – including the huge power of the ‘confessor’. I can’t think of any other context in which this is not only allowed to go on, but is encouraged, and indeed in which vulnerable people are told it is necessary if they are to achieve what they want to achieve – i.e., to not drink again. *When* will society generally wake up to what is going on inside these groups, and all the dangerous nonsense that goes on under the public guise of helping people to stop drinking and to tackle addiction?

Trisha K.'s picture

Trisha K.

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 12:46

AA being dangerous. What is really disturbing is you are not even an alcoholic nor were you ever a member of AA. From what you said your partner was one. I see he is never here responding to the nonsense that is written here by some of you.
AA/GSO, meeting and 99.9999999% are just fine it is the occasional person that is untreated and comes to AA that causes trouble from time to time.
I am sorry you don't like that people come together for a unified purpose, to help each other.
Am I not mistaken that your husband/partner did not care for AA and just moved on. I felt the same way about organized religion. I JUST MOVED ON!!!

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

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NoAAUK

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 12:41

Humanspirt

A Psychiatric nurse I once spoke to was appalled by step 11, she thought telling mentally troubled people to listen to voices in their heads was asking for trouble. Every nut job that kills prostitutes with hammers, worth his salt will declare that God told him to do it.
Now I am really glad I didn’t hear any daily work orders from God no matter how many times I tried to do step 11

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

AntiDenial

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 12:55

NOAAUK, that is what is so troubling with The Mental Health Court mandating mentally ill to the 12 step dogma. It creates more problems for them emotionally when they are told to look at all of their Character defects,and their part in it.

Scientology does this too. They actually keep a folder on you, and keep records of all of your sins. In AA and NA they keep it in their heads. Then many can't keep a secret to save their lives and spread gossip about others in the rooms. When it gets back to the person they are devastated at the betrayal.

In fact one guy murdered his sponsor at a meeting for disclosing he was gay!

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becket

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 19:02

But mentally ill persons have to be out from under the crush of alcohol dependency before their mental illnesses can be effectively treated.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

AntiDenial

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 22:05

They do not have to be becket. But it is much better if they are for sure. You have to start somewhere. I certainly have compassion for the mentally ill. I just dont think they are doing the right thing sending them to AA with other mentally unstable people telling them negative things.

www.nadaytona.org

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becket

Mon, 05/21/2012 - 21:12

Hm. Didn't I just post a piece on this? One that was not from wikipedia and said without stabilizing the patient there is little hope of effective treatment? Hm.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

AntiDenial

Mon, 05/21/2012 - 21:23

Yes was an interesting piece. Kinda a catch 22 when it comes to sending them to AA meetings without the mental illness under control yet, possibly not even the drugs.

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teatotaler

Mon, 05/21/2012 - 21:42

in order for their therapy, medications, etc. to be effective. I also say that sending them to AA is dangerous for them. However, they don't have to go to AA to kill off an addiction. Why would anyone assume that 12-step religion is necessary or a valid medical treatment? Ans: It's NOT. AA is NOT the way, the truth and the life....Rational Recovery, for example, is a do-it-yourself job. Just a book, done in private- no meetings, no predatory people, no sponsors (oh, I just mentioned that with predatory people), no higher or lower powers, no steps, no gospel of powerlessness, no 75 or so year-old cult, no telling people that they have a "disease" that causes them to drink alcohol. "Being out from under the crush of alcohol dependency.." is no justifiable rationale for sending them to AA.

"There's a new sheriff in town."

AntiDenial

Mon, 05/21/2012 - 21:46

So many people quit all on their own. They do not need meetings. Or one on one non 12 step therapy, and other therapies. With such a high failure rate, I would think it is even higher with the mentally ill. Telling them all their character flaws can't help their self esteem!

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teatotaler

Mon, 05/21/2012 - 21:49

Plus, AA isn't licensed to counsel ANYTHING! It's not therapy or psychiatry....it's a DESTRUCTIVE cult. Oh, well, I guess some of us already know that. LOL. Sorry for the regurgitation.

"There's a new sheriff in town."

AntiDenial

Mon, 05/21/2012 - 21:54

There are people in the rehab business and judicial system that have not figured that out yet! So I guess it worth repeating! To have these nuts working with minors and requesting to do sexual inventories just blows my mind that this practice id allowed.

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becket

Mon, 05/21/2012 - 22:10

I don't think anyone assumes anything anymore. The protocol is pretty well set. I agree that everyone needs a choice, needs to be cognizant enough to make an informed choice about treatment/no treatment. But please, if the individual finds that the idea of God resonates within him or her, do not bash AA. It could be the place where they need to be.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

teatotaler

Mon, 05/21/2012 - 22:23

Um, what if an individual "finds that the idea of God resonates within him or her,..." but they don't like AA, don't feel comfortable there? Is God only to be found in AA? The "idea of God" isn't solely in AA. FYI. Or, maybe, a better blanket statement to defend AA would be: "Don't bash AA, some people might find that the idea of God resonates within him or her." What if someone goes to church, or synagogue and they straighten their booze or drug problems out without AA? Some people do. Of course, there are nontheists who kill off their addictions without AA too.

"There's a new sheriff in town."

humanspirit

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 13:17

Completely agree. But isn't the fundamental point that this irrelevant and counterproductive religious mumbo-jumbo should have no place whatsoever in anything that purports to be about tackling addiction to alcohol? I'm from the UK too, and the supposedly militant secular groups are up in arms if a nurse wears a necklace with a cross on it, for example,(which is pretty harmless) but do not seem to give a shit about this blatant and damaging intrusion of a religious group into such a major area of health care. (I know a bit about this, having written to the NSS about it and got pretty much the brush-off. Which is why if they ever have any articles in the mainstream press about anything else I make bloody sure I bring it up in the comments section.)

AntiDenial

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 13:28

Humanspirit, it is interesting how the secular world picks and chooses what there battles are. Like the wearing of a cross as you pointed out vs cramming religion down your throat in AA!

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humanspirit

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 13:47

Yes, and it is an absolute mystery as to why atheist/secular groups aren't up in arms about it. I'm from the UK, but Ilse and others pointed out that this was the case in the US too. "Skeptic" groups, however vocal they are about other things, just will not take this one on board.

AntiDenial

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 12:50

HumanSpirit, I have always admired your excellent writing abilities and insight on these topics. I agree that the 4th and 5th step are big problems. Even in regular therapy there is not a required confessional component. In a Catholic Church yes, therapy no. This is because people can not emotionally handle every rotten thing they have ever done and make a list and check it twice. We are very emotionally vulnerable. Therapists tend to tread softly. Not all, like the 2 hatters. I think It was Bill W.'s way to incorporate the Catholic practice of confession and also get his rocks off by listening to people's sexual inventories. This I believe is the sickest practice of all. Espechially to Teens!

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humanspirit

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 13:42

I think the major point is that steps 4 and 5 - like all the other steps - have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the matter of stopping drinking. And they are potentially hugely damaging too if left in the hands of amateurs. A professional therapist will not press anyone to talk about anything they do not want to talk about, and will certainly not pass moral judgment on those things and view them as a "confession" - the aim is help the person get better, not make them feel worse about themselves. But even catholic priests get training in handling confession, even though it is a pretty dubious practice IMO (I was brought up as a catholic), and there are strict rules in place as to confidentialty.

I completely agree that within the 12-step movement this is all about sad pathetic people getting their rocks off. Do any of them get excited about a sponsee who has huge guilt feelings about neglecting their grandma in her dying years, for example? Don't think so - that wouldn't make for a juicy drunkalogue, even if it was something that hugely preyed on the conscience of the sponsee.

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Trisha K.

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 13:46

someone who never experience being an AA member, suffered from long term destructive alcohol addiction. Why are you so pretentious, I just don't get it.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

gigi

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 14:19

It doesn't matter that HS was never a member or has never suffered from long term destructive alcohol addiction. That's another load of BS-that only another alcoholic/addict can possibly understand any of this and that everyone else should just piss off. People like HS (and Anti and JR) offer a valid perspective and have every right to express their opinions. What I don't get is why it should bother you or anyone else, Trisha. It speaks to the lack of confidence and faith that you have in your program, it's validity and it's relevance. If you were truly secure and confident in the "rightness" of AA, you would not be offended by those who dare to question it.

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

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Trisha K.

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 14:30

When your on a site regurgitating what you have heard or read what someone else has experienced and inferring that you are an expert. I call it BS!!!
Human is excusing AA of atrocities, she had better have more then, "I read something".
She has not experienced in any way what she is writing about.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

gigi

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 14:49

TK says:" Human is excusing AA of atrocities, she had better have more then, "I read something".
She has not experienced in any way what she is writing about."

No, she's not excusing...she's accusing. You're excusing. Until and unless you post some of your own experience that proves her wrong, I call your whole game BS. And of course, you're right, that is my opinion.

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

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causeandeffect

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 14:56

Thanks gigi, I couldn't fathom what he was trying to say. danny's Uncunning, baffling and unpowerful, LOL!
But it looks like we're stuck with it.

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avogadno

Sun, 05/20/2012 - 18:34

Gigi,
You are right. AA's are threatened by anyone outside of 12 programees that understand how manipulitive and controlling it is. They know that is where danger lies and try to discredit them. It is beyond me how it could only take an alcoholic, drug addict, sex addict, al-anon, al-ateen, etc to possible understand how the steps are used as a propaganda technique.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

teatotaler

Mon, 05/21/2012 - 21:46

You just knocked one outta the ballpark, with that observation! Damned skippy! "It speaks to the lack of confidence and faith that you have in your program, it's validity and it's relevance." Plus, religious NUTS usually get freaky if their holy writ is questioned - they feel threatened.

"There's a new sheriff in town."

teatotaler

Mon, 05/21/2012 - 22:16

Then don't. No one said you HAVE to.

"There's a new sheriff in town."

AntiDenial

Mon, 05/21/2012 - 21:58

Mentally Ill AA Member charged with DWI after high speed chase. This man had jst been released from a mental hospital, and on his way to an AA Meeting. He did not quite make it, and back to the mental hospital.

http://nadaytona.org/2012/02/24/mentally-ill-aa-member-charged-with-dwi-...

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