Bill W & The Spiritual Awakening?

Submitted by The Professor on Sat, 05/12/2012 - 02:51

Forums:

One thing that has always puzzled me.

How come Bill W gets his "spiritual awakening" even before a step has been done? Yet everyone else must do the whole of the 12 steps before they get their spiritual awakening? If a spiritual awakening is the main ingredient for sobriety, then surely all it will take is a bit of Belladonna?

Pogue Mahone

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 07:51

.

Pogue Mahone

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 07:57

I do believe she was in show biz.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ozU4KcvIZ0

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Mon, 05/14/2012 - 17:16

You say you have never believed AA is the only way to get sober. When you were an active member, what did you make of such claims? Did you feel such claims might hinder others' recovery? What, in your belief at the time, were other ways to get sober, if I might ask?

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"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

becket's picture

becket

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 22:24

If anyone ever told me AA was the only way to get sober, I would easily have countered with anecdotal experience, in that I know people who have stopped drinking and have stayed sober without benefit of any program. I had no problem with anything AA may had insisted upon. I was a Cafeteria Drunk - I chose what I thought would work for me, wished them well, and didn't give it a second thought. We were all adults there, each capable of making our own decisions. Some people left and came back; others left for good; others left and started drinking again after years in the program. They were each on their own path.

I really hate having to hash this out, because it's all been addressed here before. Some get sober by not picking up a drink again. Some go to rehab and find structure and support so they can stop drinking. Some go on weed maintenance and never take another drink. So what? Anything one can do to get away from the destructive characteristics of alcohol dependence is good in my book.

AGAIN, AA can help people to quit drinking, either by peer support, prayer, osmosis, kindred spirits, whatever. If someone finds power in the program or the fellowship and it helps them in some way, it's really no one else's business unless they choose to share that. The structure of AA does work for some people. I do not want to hear that it does not. The percentage may be small, but we are out here, many of us for lots and lots of years. Don't sling shit at me because of the choices I made. The denigration of AA makes all other causes smaller, not bigger, not more powerful, and certainly not more appealing. It's not the difference of opinion that does it; it's the condescension.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

The Professor

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 10:03

The basic premise of the 12 step program is that until you have a complete faith in a higher power (whatever that may be?) you will not be able to recover from alcoholism. If you do not confess all your sins to a God and somebody human you will not be able to recover from alcoholism...for sins you committed whilst being powerless! Shall I go on or are starting to see just how ridiculous the steps are? The only thing the steps promise are to restore you to sanity...You call my statement arrogant, yet here is a program that claims to bring insane people back to sanity without a medical professional in sight, all by following a few steps some written by Bill W. A man whose brain has been addled by gutrot gin and bootleg whisky. Now that is what I call arrogant!

Lesson over!

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Sat, 05/12/2012 - 08:31

You'll know it when you experience it is not a valid answer. I have heard it called the Ah-Ha moment when a slogan devised by the occultist Bill Wilson is used on a prospect, but often it has to be repeated numerous times in many AA rituals and the prospect has to be coerced into believing that the silly saying means something. Eventually the prospect will repeat that he has had a Spiritual Awakening enough times that they actually start to believe it and start repeating slogans to their prospects in an attempt to trick them into believing it also and start selling AAWS literature and putting people in Hazelden style rehabs.

So what was your Spiritual Awakening?

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Unhinged

Sat, 05/12/2012 - 08:32

"I've had them all of my life..."

How many so far?

Is it only God that can give you them?

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avogadno

Sat, 05/12/2012 - 08:38

"I've had them all of my life" ~Clara

Why wasn't your compulsion to drink lifted sooner then?

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Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

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causeandeffect

Sat, 05/12/2012 - 09:41

You beat me to that one Avo. But then again, why would one get the compulsion to drink in the first place?

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"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 05/12/2012 - 11:52

Because I didn't ask for it, Avo. Spiritual awakenings are not limited to recovery. I hope no one misunderstands that.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

gigi

Sat, 05/12/2012 - 12:03

"Spiritual Awakenings are not limited to recovery." Of course they're not. My question is how we are supposed to have a spiritual awakening by doing the steps. We are told that we will have one. Are you saying that you did not have a spiritual awakening as a result of doing the steps?

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 05/12/2012 - 15:55

No, I am saying that I have had spiritual awakenings all of my life, in AA and before. I have surely had some "aha" moments (forgive me, Oprah. She sues people over that) as the result of stepwork. Not everyone has a blazing bush moment. It can be far more subtle then that.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

The Professor

Sat, 05/12/2012 - 08:39

Who said they were immune? I said something entirely different.

Lucky you for having them all your life...shame it hasn't helped you to stop drinking!!!

Lesson over!

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 05/12/2012 - 12:41

This is what is amazing about new posters. On the board for a day and already started. Wilding mentality.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

The Professor

Sat, 05/12/2012 - 15:04

makes no sense! Elaborate please.

Lesson over!

gigi

Sat, 05/12/2012 - 08:39

If you've had them all your life, why did you need AA?

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 05/12/2012 - 12:49

Gigi, until I got to AA, I really didn't think that alcohol was the problem. I DID think I just had problems with DUIs as Ben suggested. My first AA awakening, if you want to call it that was realy understanding that alcohol was the problem and how unmanageable life was because of it. Before that, I described it pretty much as Ironic just did.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sat, 05/12/2012 - 15:22

Gigi, until I got to AA, I really didn't think that alcohol was the problem.

You obviously pay little attention at meetings. If you did, you would know that alcohol is NOT the problem. Bottles were only a symbol.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 05/12/2012 - 15:59

Booze is but a symptom. It took me a while to get that, too, Penny. I always thought it was something else and I while I know that to be true, it would be foolish to not understand the role alcohol played in my life as a coping mechanism, as the social lubricant, as what I thought it did for me.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

btnben's picture

btnben

Sat, 05/12/2012 - 16:03

A rash is a symptom. A cough is a symptom. Booze is the one and only CAUSE of alcoholism. What other fucking disease can you buy in 6 packs (daily binge) in a supermarket?

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sat, 05/12/2012 - 16:07

Yeah but you just said alcohol was the problem and that your life was unmanagble because of it. This is Stepper 101 here: alcohol was never the problem and your life was unmanagble with or without booze. This is why you need a higher power. If you were really a stepper like you say you are you would know this like second nature.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 05/12/2012 - 16:13

Did I ever refer to myself as a stepper, Penny? OPF et al refers to me as a stepper.
I am a person that went to AA and got what I went there to get...

I am an alcoholic and my life was unmanageable. It isn't that way any longer with the help of a fab organization, a great group of people, a wonderful husband, and a loving God that I gratefully embrace.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

btnben's picture

btnben

Sat, 05/12/2012 - 16:19

Neither did you refer to yourself as a total nut job.

Do you do the steps? 10, 11 and 12 repeatedly? Just interested...lol.

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 05/12/2012 - 16:30

I suppose you could call it "doing a step" but when you practice them daily, it doesn't feel like it. It just becomes part of how you think.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

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JR Harris

Sat, 05/12/2012 - 16:36

You have a Sponsor for that.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sat, 05/12/2012 - 16:23

Clara, I know I've been hard on you lately. And if I thought you were genuine I'd be more forgiving and tolerant. Now there is a chance I am wrong, but frankly, I think you've been playing a game with us. You know just enough about AA to be superficially believable at first glance, but going deeper, I think it is increasingly unlikely that you are for real.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 05/12/2012 - 16:36

It isn't that. I told you the truth when I told you why I went to AA. I've gotten alot out of it that was for good. Do I memorize every little bit? No. Do I think there is room for interpretation? Yes. Do I think that everyone has to work it the same way? No. Did I have a number of incidences happen in my life where alcohol had a direct role? Yes, I sure did. Do I play the constant game of "gotcha!"? Not at all. It doesn't matter if you think that I am for real, whatever that means. The only thing that is important to my life is that I recognize that damage alcohol has done to it and to not go back there.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Sat, 05/12/2012 - 16:45

Clara, when you first came here, you were all full of slogans and telling everyone to read the "Big Book", "Living Sober" and "Pass It On." Your story has changed numerous times, you came up with these wild stories that on examination are false. You even attacked the members here on other blogs, claimed to have gotten $1,300 to give to an NA group to rent a pavilion on Easter Sunday....... it goes on and on.

By the way, when you claimed to have been giving away $1,300 of fellowship money, your Intergroup was in the hole and the groups only contributed $1,244.33 that month. The business meeting also aren't on Saturday, they are on Thursday.

http://aaelpaso.org/aa_el_paso_financial_page.html

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

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Pennywise

Sat, 05/12/2012 - 16:46

Well, to be honest, what tipped me off was when you mentioned that you were the person who introduced Clancy at the El Paso Jamboree...

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Sat, 05/12/2012 - 16:49

El Paso Jamboree Expenses 2012 - $17,226.55

Source: http://aaelpaso.org/aa_el_paso_financial_page.html

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 05/12/2012 - 17:12

That happened, Penny. What kind of proof is that of anything? I was where I said I was and have provided a photo, even though it wasn't requested.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sat, 05/12/2012 - 17:16

Ok.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Sat, 05/12/2012 - 17:18

The history is lacking, the slogans are fairly well defined. My vote is Al-Anon, the gateway cult to Alcoholics Anonymous and she is just practicing her skills on talking prospects into AA from her Al-Anon connections and scouting trips.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

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JR Harris

Sat, 05/12/2012 - 17:23

When Clancy was at the El Paso Jamboree, who was running the Midnight Mission? It doesn't seem like he does much except go on missionary trips for AA (not the Midnight Mission).

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

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Pennywise

Sat, 05/12/2012 - 16:59

To be sure, this isn't meant as a personal indictment. You had good persona here; it's just that we know a whole lot about AA. It's hard to fool us. I don't hold against you since it's just the Internet, but it would be interesting if you broke character.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 05/12/2012 - 17:21

No one has tried to fool anyone? I haven't said anything that isn't true. I also have never been on a forum before where someone could rewrite your posts and people would then pick a version to believe. I said I didn't like the meetings in El Paso, so I didn't go to them. But I never said I didn't go to meetings at all. I did not go to meetings to the same level as I did in MB. I also don't go to Texas meetings when I do go. I can give countless examples of this very thing. You spend more time defending a typo than an issue. This is a funny place, Penny. The ironic part came when people would dispute if a person was even an alcoholic despite hating that very thing in AA. Nonprofessional people making diagnosis of another... What would happen if someone successfully convinced a person with a problem with booze that there was no problem! So what, you crashed a car, had some DUIs... Someone might go out and try it some more, possibly get into some real trouble, perhaps even die, yet the board would be high fiving because they got rid of another AA... Look how sensitive PIE got when the exercise was turned around on her?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sat, 05/12/2012 - 17:29

I don't think I've ever argued about typos. That's boring to me and I would not do that. Anyway, if you have never been too active in El Paso AA, then how did you get to introduce Clancy at the El Paso Jamboree?

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Sat, 05/12/2012 - 17:32

El Paso Jamboree - Annual Al-Anon & Alateen event with Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) participation. 49th Annual. February 11, 12 & 13, 2011. Radisson Hotel El Paso Airport. 1770 Airway Boulevard. El Paso, El Paso County, Texas.

Source:http://www.usrecovery.info/AA/Texas.htm

I vote Al-Anon..., just a "slight" exaggeration on her part to gain acceptance.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 05/12/2012 - 17:50

Because I knew the woman that coordinating theout of town speakers. She believed me to be reliable based on service work in MB. So many people get "involved" only to bail at the last minute.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sat, 05/12/2012 - 17:56

Yeah, like anyone bails to introduce Clancy. That's one of the biggest honors in AA, and you have to be on a committee to do it. How many speakers did they have, anyway?

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 05/12/2012 - 19:20

I only went to see him on the Saturday night as my dog was still alive but ailing. Wayne B from Florida spoke and held a workshop.

I didn't have to be on a committee to do it, Penny. I don't know what else to tell you.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Sat, 05/12/2012 - 19:31

Quit while you are ahead, you have been caught too many times.

The Boy Who Cried Wolf is one of Aesop's Fables, numbered 210 in the Perry Index. From it is derived the English idiom "to cry wolf", meaning to give a false alarm. The tale concerns a shepherd boy who repeatedly tricks nearby villagers into thinking a wolf is attacking his flock. When a wolf actually does appear, the villagers do not believe the boy's cries for help, and the flock is destroyed. The moral at the end of the story shows that this is how liars are not rewarded: even if they tell the truth, no one believes them."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_boy_who_cried_wolf

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

gigi

Sat, 05/12/2012 - 17:36

For the record, Clara, the only reason I repeatedly tell you that you're not an alcoholic is because I do believe that you are a character actor. You're not believable.

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 05/12/2012 - 17:54

It doesn't matter what you believe, Gigi. I am not trying to be rude, but I think the practice just shows that the people on this board behave toward others as they felt they were treated in AA. I am not an actor of any kind. Just a person whose experience with AA differed from yours. I mean, what do you get out of your behavior? Be introspective for just a moment and ask yourself what you get out of it.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

gigi

Sat, 05/12/2012 - 19:24

I've just spent the last hour being introspective. What do I get out of it? Well, not much really. Because You don't answer questions honestly or provide any useful information or clever insight. So I get nothing. I'll keep trying. Otherwise, I'm good with my behavior. Thanks for asking.

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 05/12/2012 - 19:28

I do answer honestly, but I tire of being asked the same question or having my response skewed for sport. As far as clever, one poster spent 10 DAYS on a typo. How clever are the rest of you? It reflects on you, not me.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sat, 05/12/2012 - 19:31

Gigi is very clever, actually. She is clearly of above average intelligence.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

gigi

Sat, 05/12/2012 - 19:36

Aw, shucks.

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 05/12/2012 - 19:37

I think everyone here is bright, certainly more bright than some of their behavior might suggest.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

gigi

Sat, 05/12/2012 - 19:36

Enough with the typo argument. Sheesh. I suppose honesty is in the eye of the beholder. Where you see honesty, I see double-talk and evasion. In all of your posts, with the thousnads of words you've typed, there has been no substance. Nothing to sink your teeth into. Emptiness. If you were really here to defend AA or to do a 12th step on anyone, there would be some type of emotion attached to at least one of your offerings. Either you're really stupid or you're an expert manipulator. Which one is it? Your turn for some introspection, Clara.

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

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