Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) and Suicides of AA Members (#1 in a series)

AA by its nature (a hokey religion) does indeed cause some "alcoholic" AA members to suicide.

Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) and the “treatment programs” that it is has spawned (12 step programs) can be harmful to the individual alcohol abuser. The discussion following will discuss AA/12 step programs and the human condition.

For ease of discussion any use of AA will be meant to incorporate AA and the numerous 12 step “programs” of alcohol abuse.

Upon its founding (1935) and continuing to today AA claims its program is one of spirituality and not religious. AA and its fellowship continues this claim despite the fact that AA has been examined by numerous state and federal courts and these various courts have ruled that AA is a religion. AA is, without a doubt, a religion.

This AA religion teaches that any individual that embraces the program of AA is powerless over alcohol; their life is unmanageable as a result of alcohol. AA the religion insists that the alcohol abuser is full of character defects. AA the religion insists these numerous character defects must be admitted to, examined and removed in order to survive to live another day.

AA the religion insists that one must turn their life over to god in order to live another day; to not do so will result in the individual finding their self in jail, prison, institutionalized or, ultimately, dead. Powerful stuff no?

AA the religion, by it true nature, can cause fear, anxiety, restlessness, despair, hopelessness, depression, anger and numerous other human emotions that are detrimental to the human condition. AA the religion throws into this mix all the numerous character defects and then tells the AA newcomer that only god can help (by miracles) with their dire situation. Miracles Performed Here.

When god does not perform the miracle for the newcomer some will become even more depressed, angry, hopeless, etc.

**************************************************

Letters #1 & 2 received by Orange from readers of the Orange Papers.

#1 (posted earlier)

I forgot one thing. The suicide rate in AA of people sober longer than 15 years. Unfortunately a study has not been done, but the first eight years I was in AA, I knew (not just of, but knew) 17 people with over 15 years of sobriety, who committed suicide. Most of them were not "dry drunks". Also, I was present at a meeting where the husband of one member came in and shot his wife and then himself. I remember hearing for the next week how freaked people were that their "safe place" had been denigrated. I remember saying to people that they were nuts if this was their safe place as there were rapists, pedophiles, murderers, and other criminals sitting next to them at almost every meeting. If only I had understood the depth of that statement.

#2

Date: Sun, December XX, XXXX 1:45 pm
From: Anonymous
Dear Sir/ Madam,

I have enjoyed reading your material on the net concerning the AA cult. I spent 8 years of my life in this evil organisation. In that time I have seen many young men commit suicide, a direct result I believe of the program. I brought this subject up at meetings but of course they tried to put me down.
When I shared about being beaten by my parents as a child I was told to make amends to them! I just laughed loudly.

I have also seen sponsors, who think they're great spiritual masters, exploit women for sex. This is very common.

It is a difficult problem, as members believe deep down that they are right, that AA is perfect. Most disturbing of all is that they believe they will die if they leave AA, hence the appalling suicide rate. I live in XXXX, Ireland, but I believe AA is the same everywhere. Keep up the good work in exposing this evil cult.

Yours
Anonymous
***********************************************************

The above are unsolicited letters from readers of the Orange Papers that chose to write to Orange in emails and discuss their own experiences and thoughts on AA.

Orange responded to each one. I thank you Orange and salute you for your efforts.

I personally have no doubt in my mind that AA causes some AA members to suicide and that AA is, as a result of the AA religion, responsible for the suicides of some AA members. Not all, but some, and that is irresponsible and evil. This is my belief and it is real.

Comments

btnben's picture

Why does it always take 10 posts for you to stop defending the AA wrongdoings? Do you do this on your AA sites? And when do you go there - you seem to be on here all the time being a frigging nuisance.

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Clara's picture

Cause asked me a question, Ben. What wrongdoing are you talking about now?

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btnben's picture

Cause just told of yet another example of disgraceful AA behaviour. I saw it myself at a funeral last year. The daughter of the person who died of powerlessness actually ordered two of the AA members out of the church.

You then start up with your normal dribbling apologies for AA that just go on and on and on. Nobody wants it Clara. Go talk to your AA buddies - or don't you feel like you fir in there , not being even a heavy drinker, let alone an alcoholic?

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

causeandeffect's picture

And the only question I recall asking was:

So you mean people visit an ass hole weekly? Why would anyone want to do that? Sounds more like cult leader worship to me. If I lived near that cemetery I'd be really unhappy. Why is it these people have no respect for anyone else?

I never got an answer why these people don't have respect for the living, breathing, working people in the area. Except they must be used to it.

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Pennywise's picture

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2008/06/09/ohno_bob_w._060...

This is the picture of gratitude at a cemetery on a Sunday morning in Akron.

It is a scene where thousands of men and women gather around the grave of the co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous and his wife, Dr. Robert and Anne Smith.

There are hundreds -- perhaps 2,000 -- motorcycles with their engines blaring, converging on Mount Peace Cemetery on Aqueduct Street before most people are out of bed.

Every year on Founders' Day weekend, when 12,000 or more recovering alcoholics make their pilgrimage to Akron to remember the date in June 1935 when AA was founded in the city, the bikers drive into the normally quiet cemetery.

So do tour buses. And cars from dozens of states and countries.

People visit the grave all weekend. On Saturday night about 10:30, cars were driving into the cemetery for evening visits to the grave.

Yesterday, when a bagpiper first played, the crowd understood it was nearly time for the annual memorial service held at the grave of the man known as Dr. Bob.

Dr. Bob and New York stockbroker Bill Wilson, known as Bill W., co-founded the 12-step program, which has nearly 2 million members.

The group at the cemetery recited the Serenity Prayer together.

Then Dave S. of Akron, sober 35 years, told his story.

"I can say Dr. Bob was my great-grand sponsor," he said, telling the crowd of the connection through a number of his sponsors and their sponsors in the past to the man buried in the grave in front of him.

"We can all" trace it back to Dr. Bob and Bill W., he said: "Just amazing."

There was the playing of Amazing Grace by the bagpiper and the sound of people crying after the service ended with the Lord's Prayer. Strangers hugged and held hands during the prayer.

The crowd then packed as close as possible to the gravestone to touch and pray over it.

On the stone was a red rose and dozens of sobriety coins, which AA gives to members to celebrate months and years of staying sober.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Clara's picture

I bet everyone spent 500. each that weekend. Good for the city.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Pennywise's picture

Well, the folks who live in the vicinity of Stepping Stones are sure doing their best to avoid experiencing similar "benefits."

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

avogadno's picture

"I can say Dr. Bob was my great-grand sponsor,"
"We can all" trace it back to Dr. Bob and Bill W., he said: "Just amazing."

That's some family tree.

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Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

causeandeffect's picture

TALK ABOUT A SPIRITUAL EXPERIENCE
By A Yahoo! Contributor, 6/12/06
WENT TO MY FIRST FOUNDERS DAY THIS YEAR (2006) AND WHEN I GOT OFF THE SHUTTLE AT DR.BOB'S HOUSE AND LOOKED UP AND SAW THE BANNER, "WELCOME HOME", I WAS OVERWHELMED WITH EMOTION. "WELCOME HOME", I FELT LIKE I WAS HOME, LIKE I HAD JUST CROSSED OVER TO A NEW LIFE AGAIN. I HAVE ALMOST 17 YEARS OF THE PROGRAM BUT I FELT LIKE IT WAS MY FIRST DAY OF SOBRIETY. IT WAS THE MOST MOVING EXPERIENCE I HAVE EVER FELT, SURROUNDED BY SO MANY MIRACLES AND SO MANY SMILING FACES, PEOPLE WHO WERE GENUINELY THANKFUL TO BE ALIVE AND FREE. I FEEL LIKE A NEW WOMAN TODAY, NOW THAT I'VE "BEEN THERE." I BOUGHT THE BOOK THAT DR. BOB'S KIDS WROTE AND READ THE WHOLE THING ON THE PLANE ON THE WAY TO MY HOME. IT GAVE THE WORD GRATEFUL A NEW MEANING FOR ME. WHEN I ENTERED THE SICK ROOM, I KNELT DOWN AND SAID THE PRAYER THAT WAS ON THE BED AND FELT AS THOUGH THEY WERE RIGHT THERE HELPING ME TOO. WHEN I SAT AT THEIR KITCHEN TABLE I FELT THE LOVE AND ALSO THE PAIN THEY MUST HAVE EXPERIENCED. ON SUNDAY WHEN WE WENT TO THE GRAVESITE, WOW, THEY HAVEN'T INVENTED THE WORDS TO DESCRIBE THE FEELINGS THAT FLOODED MY BODY AND MY MIND. WHEN THEY PLAYED TAPS "AMAZING GRACE" AND THE MEMBER WHO SPOKE TO US OVER THE INTERCOM, (ALTHOUGH WE COULD NOT SEE HIM) HE STATED THAT THEY PLAY ONE FOR DR. BOB, ONE FOR ANNE AND THEN ONE FOR "US", I FELT LIKE A MILLION MIRACLES. MY GRATITUFE EXPANDS TO EACH AND EVERY PERSON THAT MADE THAT WEEKEND HAPPEN FOR ME AND MY HUSBAND (WHO IS ALSO AN ALCOHOLIC 6 YEARS SOBRIETY). WE WILL DEFINITELY MAKE THAT OUR YEARLY PRILGRIMAGE SO THAT WE MAY BE OF SERVICE ONCE AGAIN WITH SERENITY, PEACE AND LOVE. WHEN WE WERE IN THE JAR HALL AND THE THUNDER ROARED WITH GRATITUDE AND LOVE, IT WAS LIKE A ROCK CONCERT WITHOUT THE BAND. THE COUNTDOWN WAS AMAZING, AND FOR THE MOMENT I WISHED THE WHOLE WORLD COULD HAVE BEEN SOBER. THANK GOD, THANK GOD, THANK GOD.

http://travel.yahoo.com/p-travelguide-2997596-dr_bob_s_home_akron-i

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Pennywise's picture

Lol. Somehow I doubt that she truly "felt the pain" of his children.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

becket's picture

*I was hoping to see an actual picture.*

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

alkieanon's picture

Sounds like Père Lachaise Cemetery or Westminster Burial Ground.

Clara's picture

It's a landmark, Cause. How long have these people been buried there? You purchased your home, knowing that it is there. If Abe Lincoln were buried there, would you feel differently? It is because it is Dr. Bob?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

causeandeffect's picture

I somehow doubt many purchased their homes knowing it's there. Realtors most likely don't advertise it any more than they would advertise a murder having taken place in the house they are trying to sell. Especially if it's a weekly pilgrimage.

It only has any meaning to AA members. Nobody else knows who dr bob is. Or cares. But if the neighborhood was a bunch of AA members who want to be close to bob, well, that's different.

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Clara's picture

I was getting bits and pieces of the funeral story, Cause.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Clara's picture

Fir, Ben? I agreed that the woman was wrong to announce it. Why are you keeping on with it?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

btnben's picture

It takes you 10 posts to admit you were talking shit and then you accuse others of going on about it.

Please answer one question - Why are you here? You not anti-AA. You're not even a problem drinker, let alone an alcoholic. I repeat - Why are you here? Can't you see you're not particularly wanted? Is it a habit of yours to ignore other people?

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Clara's picture

Ben, it isn't up to you to say that someone isn't a problem drinker or an alcoholic. I continue to learn from this forum.

It didn't take 10 posts to admit to talking garbage because I wasn't. There are no AA funerals; however, there are AA members that have funerals when they die. Those are private events, and the woman was wrong to announce the funeral against the wishes of the family. I agreed with that. I know that people feel differently, though. I organized an event for a woman who was turning 70. Her husband asked me to handle the food arrangements and flowers; he would do the inviting personally. One of the girls said something about not being able to make something that was on the same day that was oeverheard at a meeting, and another one took upon herself to announce it. She took it one step further and put it on her facebook for people "to tell anyone that knows Lee." There were definitely people there that would not have been invited as guests of John.

That wasn't right. It was a private family event with personal invitations.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

btnben's picture

Why are you here? Does it not bother you that you annoy people who have good reason to be here, unlike you? When are you going to stop this nauseous AA support? Can't you understand that people are fed up with it?

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Clara's picture

Ben, I gave you the answer. It is the same one I gave you when I first got here. Now, I am going to do the same thing to you that I did to Patti. I am not talking to you about this anymore. Stop asking since you don't like the answer. I don't owe you one.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

btnben's picture

If you won't discus anything, why be here. Why not just leave and not come back. There won't be many tears...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Pennywise's picture

She answered why she is here. She said she is here because we remind her of what she does not want to become. In other words, we remind her of people who don't "work a good program."

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

causeandeffect's picture

to get it through to you ben.

"I'm clara and I'm here to learn things! That's why I took the cotton out of my mouth and put it in my ears. That's what I learned in my perfect meetings in MB to do! But sometimes I get confused and put the cotton in my eyes, so I make a lot of typos! I'm here so I can learn what dry drunks are like, because I've never seen one in the wild. I'm so glad I'm not like any of you. There but for the grace of gawd... I'm just so glad my husband doesn't want me to know that I'm his future third ex-wife and that he's looking for his fourth so he blocks people's posts so I don't get wise. I'm so glad for that."

LOL!

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Clara's picture

My husband chose to block someone that was just eerie and strange. I didn't ask him to do this, but I was pleased that he did. You must have had a poor marriage, Cause.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Persephone In Exile's picture

Clara, that must just be another difference between us. Your husband seriously went onto your computer, to your account on a forum and did something to block your ability to view posts there? Well forget the blocking bit, he went onto your account on a forum on your computer period? Without asking your permission? And you're fine with this? Holy crap, woman!

Clara's picture

Of course I am fine with it. I can go into his computer at any time, too. When my husband wants to protect his wife, that is fine with me especially when you consider the weirdness of the posts. It wasn't a loss to me.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

avogadno's picture

Clara, can you share with me how he did this?

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Pennywise's picture

She'll say she does not know. But in truth I don't think it is possible.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

avogadno's picture

Too bad. Heck, her husband can contact my husband perhaps. It will be between the men then.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

Persephone In Exile's picture

Wow. If you started blocking things on his computer, would he be grateful to you or consider that a very controlling move on your part, not to mention invasive? I'm not trying to be pushy, everyone's marriage is different. That's a foreign world to me, Clara, letting one's husband take what I would consider controlling measures to "protect" me. I'd personally hate to be in a relationship in which my partner felt I needed protecting...from something on the interwebs....but maybe that's just me.

Clara's picture

I don't feel that way at all, PIE. You have some weird person claiming to have cameras on you, trying to be coy in alluding to your handles on other boards, trying to post your full name on the board, taking the time to track your movements and gleefully calling himself a stalker, deliberately reworking your posts to confuse others on the board as to your personal facts, it has nothing to do with trying to control your wife. Besides, it is more peaceful here without the availability to me.

As to how he does it, i don't know. I also don't care. I noticed the responses to the posts but that I didn't see the original ones and he told me.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

JR Harris's picture

On Easter Sunday, on a rented Harley to give $1,300 to people she doesn't even know. I'm calling you on your BS.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

If your husband really wanted to protect you he would have advised you to stop posting a board where you are vulnerable to "creepy" posters. You can't see them, but they can still see you. Seems like your husband is controlling rather than protective.

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

Clara's picture

Who cares if he can see me? I am not exposed to him, so it doesn't matter. Other people on this board are informative and entertaining. In blogland, there is always that one on every board that is like this person.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

I don't care. Just pointing out that the logic is ass backwards.

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

Clara's picture

It isn't backwards at all. There is no effect and that is the goal.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

btnben's picture

That is EXACTLY the point Clara. Drinking alcohol has no effect on you. Bill W says an alcoholic can't stop after the first drink. You Can. You are not an alcoholic. You've just said it yourself.

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

it's a shame he dosen't protect you by locking you in a basement, He seems like a control freak (common in the fellowship) who may do that sort thing.
Tell me how many 12 step hands were you passed through in the clancy groups before hubby took you off the sharey-go-round.

Brett

Clara's picture

Brett, I sure don't know where you went to meetings, but we neer saw stuff like what you describe. I dated one person in AA, and i married him. Some of us are very happy.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Ever.

Brett

Clara's picture

Plenty pf things do, Brett. What happened to you to turn you into such a bitter soul?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

alkieanon's picture

Cannot find the exact quote posted by causeandeffect. Possible explanations are that the original post has been edited or been deleted. So this particular entry is ...?

causeandeffect's picture

I've deleted nothing alkieanon. What post is it you're looking for?

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alkieanon's picture

Meant that the original poster might have deleted (or edited) the original message.

JR Harris's picture

a brain not clouded by the teachings of the adulterous, occultist, Bill Wilson..... that is why she is here. Otherwise she is just an abusive narcissistic Alcoholics Anonymous troll. (The type that crashes funerals to promote AA and get a kick off of it.)

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Clara's picture

I sure don't know how happy everyone is, Penny.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Clara's picture

I'm happy to discuss, but why the same thing over and over?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Clara's picture

I don't know if it is AA support or just righting some things that I know are just wrong. But then, you have your experience and I have mine.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

btnben's picture

Ask any doctor. If you said you drank what you say you did they would just tell you to cut down. They would never say you have a problem because you don't. I have never met a TRUE alcoholic who could tell you with any kind of accuracy how many drinks they have had. neither have I met one who retired at 40, or who managed to save half their earnings, or who never had any physical problems. They don't exist.

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Clara's picture

That isn't true, Ben. It also isn't the amount. It is what it does to you when you drink it.

You also are just reading what you want to. I didn't say I retired at 40. I said I retired in my forties. I didn't say I saved half of my earnings. I said I had a good run in sales in an insane real estate market here in the States and I lived very frugally and saved half of those earnings. I also inherited from my parents.

It doesn't matter what kind of alcoholic YOU think I am, if one at all. All that matters is what I think.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

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