AA Sponsors' "No Meds" stance over the years.

btnben's picture
Submitted by btnben on Tue, 04/17/2012 - 11:14

Forums:

I thought this would make a good topic after just reading another repeat post by Marietta. Whenever the claim of sponsors telling sponcees not to take drugs she pipes up with "show me the evidence". Let's give it a go.

In my home town, Brighton in Sussex, there is a guy who is very active in AA and also one of the good oldtimers. Let's call him "Huggie" Mike, for no other reason than that is what people call him. He gives everyone a hug on meeting. Mike has had a long term and serious problem with schizophrenia. He has been medically evaluated and monitored for most of his life because it will not go away - it has to be managed.

When he first entered AA (late 70s, early 80s) his sponsor told him he couldn't be properly sober until he quit the meds he was on. Wanting to please his sponsor (dangerous, but often happens) he quit. 3 weeks later he jumped from a motorway flyover. He didn't die, but was several months in hospital. That is fact. Anyone can go to that town, ask for him, and ask him.

The following is from page 5 of Orange's letter :-

"Orange. Thank you so much for this on-line book. I lost a friend to the "anti-drug therapy" crowd. She was bi-polar and to be accepted and belong she went off her medication got drunk fell asleep and burned to death (nobody wanted anything to do with her after she went off her meds). I am still sober, inspite of the people in aa. I hope many more good and trusting people read more of your book...
thanks
Daisy
Hi. Thanks for the complements. Sorry to hear about your friend. I fear for a friend of mine, too, for the same reasons. Congratulations on your sobriety, and keep up the good work.

By the way, I just ran across a survey on A.A. members' attitudes towards medications, and it claimed that A.A. members were not at all dogmatic about medications — only 17% of the sponsors were against them. What the writer of the article did not seem to be able to realize is: that meant that any person with both a psychiatric and a drug or alcohol problem had a 17% chance of getting a bad sponsor who just might kill him or her with stupid orders...

(See: Alcoholics Anonymous and the Use of Medications to Prevent Relapse: An Anonymous Survey of Member Attitudes. ROBERT G. RYCHTARIK; GERARD J. CONNORS; KURT H. DERMEN; PAUL R. STASIEWICZ. Journal of Studies on Alcohol, Jan 2000 v61 i1 p134.)

What I know is, the very first friend of mine who went to Dual Diagnosis Anonymous ended up in the "lucky" 17% — he got told to quit taking the Paxil that he really depended on to keep his head together. Fortunately, he ignored the "advice" of his sponsor and the other old-timers, and stayed on his meds, and was still okay the last time I saw him. I am, of course, telling him to ignore those fools and just stay on his meds. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

— Orange

P.S.: Oh, by the way, 17% is almost exactly the odds of death if you play Russian Roulette with an old Colt 45 6-shooter. One bullet in one of the 6 chambers gives odds of 16 2/3% of blowing your head off.

It seems like Alcoholics Anonymous is just as dangerous as Russian Roulette, for people with psychiatric problems."

It seems that AAs take on not using drugs is similar to the Catholic Churches take on abusing alter boys. Everyone knows it goes on, but God forbid we admit it.

This question about meds comes up regularly, so why not try and set up a thread that answers it.

Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 18:54

Then perhaps he needs to go to NA, where drug use is freely discussed and alcohol isn't. Remember that I was told that when a group "opened" it's closed meeting for me.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 18:54

Then perhaps he needs to go to NA, where drug use is freely discussed and alcohol isn't. Remember that I was told that when a group "opened" it's closed meeting for me.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 18:58

Then perhaps Rosa Parks needed to ride a "colored bus" where negros were free to sit in the front seats.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 19:16

For the zillionth time, "drug use is" NOT "freely discussed" at NA, that is essentially a banned subject, everything is kept in very general terms so as not to trigger cravings in those who might be experiencing them. They may as well be talking about alcohol or even ice cream.

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 19:22

Fine and dandy. Then why all the lather about how it SHOULD be discussed in AA?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 18:59

Pennywise, you're talking morals and ethics to clara. It's going to go over her head every. single. time. I suspect she may have them on the most superficial level, if at all, but not on any meaningful level.

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Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 19:05

Cause, I simply refuse to relate every ill in the world to AA, especially just because someone wants to argue.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 19:08

Nice strawman, Clara.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 19:06

Indeed. And let's not forget that her group is near perfect and free from all the dangers we post about here. Clara is saying that if your problem is drugs, you can't share at her safe group and will need to take your chances in the seedy NA ghetto. That's no exaggeration, as that is exactly the position she has repeatedly defended. I think it is immoral.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

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live_free_or_die

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 19:11

AA is immoral! Lets paint the full picture.

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 19:12

It is immoral for you to conclude that every NA meeting is ghetto. YOU are exaggerating my position simply to argue.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 19:16

By ghetto I simply mean segregated. I don't mean ghetto in the modern slang sense.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 19:21

Of course, you yourself have acknowledged the street type atmosphere you perceive junkies bring to meetings.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 19:20

Yes. I have acknowledged that, as have some other anti-AAs on the board. I also know that not ever meeting has to have that. Why not start one in your own zipcode? I feel rather certain there are some private NA meetings that don't include bikers... And I am fine with that.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 19:27

None of that has any bearing on the immorality of your position. Using my example of the cancer pill, it would be like me responding to a lung cancer sufferer, "if you want your own cancer pill, invent it yourself."

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 19:30

Not at all. If I had a one size fits all cancer cure, I would certainly share it. But if I had a cancer pill for one kind of cancer and someone wanted to apply it to another, fine. But why then blame me if it doesn't cure your cancer but does cure mine?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Fri, 04/20/2012 - 03:18

I don't blame AA because it doesn't help addicts; I blame AA for not giving addicts the chance to try. That's why I think AA is not just largely ineffective, but also immoral. If you were merely ineffective I'd go easier on you;)

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Brett

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 19:17

to be here, probably immoral 4 u to be on the planet really, fk off ya steppen slag & go get a real job, bludger.

Brett

Ironic's picture

Ironic

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 19:18

regarding Clara and morals and ethics: "...she may have them on the most superficial level, if at all, but not on any meaningful level."

That is actually a fantastic description of what the xA program offers. It teaches self-righteousness..and yes, it is all one program.

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 19:57

Ironic, yes, I have often thought that myself. It's like a toddler's punishment and reward system of right and wrong. "If I do this, I'll get a cookie." "If I do that, I'll get my hand smacked." It never matures to anything deep or meaningful. I remember in college studying the stages of morality or whatever they were called, and tried to find a good link to make that case, but never could find it explained in the way it was to me back then. But yes, I remember the Hans scenario. Clara would show a toddler level of morality on that, as she does here everyday. But thanks for reminding me of that. I still intend to make a case of it sometime in the near future... somewhere.

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Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 19:59

Cause, yours is simply an opinion, and you don't know me.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

gigi

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 20:04

know you? You've revealed the true nature of your character here time and time again. You've done a fine job of showing everyone who you are Clara.

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 20:07

No, clara, I don't have to know you. It's apparent in what you write. I know you can't see it any more than a terrible 2 would be able to see how silly their tantrums look to adults, but we can see clearly a lack of understanding of morality in you. Sorry, but it's true.

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Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 20:10

You are entitled to your opinion, Cause.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Brett

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 21:34

& requested to fk off, go spew ya cyber step sewerage elsewhere, & get a real job, ya bin bludgen all ya life.

Brett

becket's picture

becket

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 21:43

Dear Brett:

You're entitled & requested to fk off, go spew ya cyber step sewerage elsewhere, & get a real job, ya bin bludgen all ya life.

Love,
becket

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Wed, 04/18/2012 - 09:10

Mary Baker Eddy, founder of Christian Science, didn't believe in taking medications either. She taught that all illnesses, including pain, were imagined. That God, namely Jesus, would cure them. Yet she too was found to take pain relief medication up until her death.

Mary Eddy, Bill W., or Clancy, do not practice what they preach or even believe in what they preach, because they know that they are the head of a scam. All that they want is to control their pansies and get rich while laughing themselves to sleep at night. It appears that each of these selfish and deceiving cult leaders are going out in the same fashion. And you promote this crap.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Tue, 04/17/2012 - 22:16

and you'll understand your in a destructive cult........

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Wed, 04/18/2012 - 08:34

Clara your timeline doesn't add up. You said that you've been sober for 5 years and that your sponsor and that your sponsor required you to move from DC to MB. That means you were in DC 5 years ago. The Midtown group was very large and would prospect hunt from other meetings. There are still members of that group in DC. I find it hard to believe that you've never heard any anti-med rhetoric.

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JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Wed, 04/18/2012 - 08:44

Busted.............

July 2007. The Washington Post, the Raw Fisher by Marc Fisher

Midtown Group: AA Group Leads Members Away from Traditions

From Sunday's Post, Page A1

When Kristen was 17 and drinking out of control, her psychologist referred her to an Alcoholics Anonymous group that specialized in helping the youngest drinkers. In the Midtown Group, members and outsiders agree, young people could find new friends, constant fellowship, daily meetings, summer-long beach parties, and a charismatic leader who would steer them through sobriety.

But according to more than a dozen young people who structured their lives around the group, the unusual adaptation of AA that Michael Quinones created from his home in Bethesda became a confusing blend of comfort and crisis. They described a rigidly insular world of group homes and socializing, in which older men had sex with teenage girls, ties to family and friends were severed or strained, and the most vulnerable of alcoholics, some suffering from emotional problems, were encouraged to stop taking prescribed medications.

Source: http://blog.washingtonpost.com/rawfisher/2007/07/midtown_group_aa_group_...

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 04/18/2012 - 09:04

I said I lhad lived in DC. I didn't say that I moved to MB from DC. I moved from Annapolis after having spent several years there. I wasn't in any of the fellowships there or in DC.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

dolson's picture

dolson

Wed, 04/18/2012 - 09:19

I wasn't in any of the fellowships there or in DC.

Which is it?
You can't keep your lies straight anymore troll.

Go ahead, enjoy yourselves - it's getting late, much later than you think.

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 04/18/2012 - 09:28

What can't you understand about joining the fellowship in MB? I didn't go to meetings up north.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Wed, 04/18/2012 - 09:29

Yes you did Clara. You said that your sponsor told you to move away from DC to get away from the party environment.

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Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 04/18/2012 - 09:46

I did not, Cause. I went to my first meetings in MB after relocating fulltime to my vacation home. I have disclosed how I came to be there.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Wed, 04/18/2012 - 09:50

How convenient that your story has changed so much. It's not at all what you've told us before. You are clearly lying, clara. Why?

Troll free AA critical forum
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"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 04/18/2012 - 09:54

How can you possible say that if you've bothered to read anything I've posted? I left DC in 1996 or 1997 and I didn't get sober until 2007 in MB. Where have I posted anything to the contrary? I didn't say that I moved from DC to MB. Could you perhaps show me what causes you to think otherwise?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Wed, 04/18/2012 - 10:01

They were counting on that money Clara, you let them down when you took your physically impossible trip during Easter weekend 2012. You really shouldn't get peoples hopes up and then let them down. it's not Spiritual and it could lead to relapse.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 04/18/2012 - 10:05

JR, that was a very imformative time. and yes, I was where I said I was. Didn't you catch us on the camera?

Should the situation arise where their meeting needs to be moved, they will have the funds to do it.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

dolson's picture

dolson

Wed, 04/18/2012 - 10:51

This is home camera footage of her fictional Easter weekend motorcycle trip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMB7BCk11wc

True story.

Go ahead, enjoy yourselves - it's getting late, much later than you think.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Wed, 04/18/2012 - 11:03

Did they get delisted? Plus, the Sunrise group is NA, what are you doing transferring funds between cults?

http://www.aadaytona.org/meetings_daytona.htm

http://daytonana.org/meetings.html

P.S. Thanks for the publicity and your help for doing this, it is greatly appreciated!

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 04/18/2012 - 12:53

Holly Hill , Florida
- back -

Sunday

9:00 AM: Sunrise Group, Open, DI, HA, SM, LPGA Blvd, at the River, in the Park map

It is an AA meeting, not an NA. Still on the AA meeting list.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Wed, 04/18/2012 - 13:03

I'll make sure that everyone knows they have the funds to pay now.....

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 04/18/2012 - 13:11

The appropriate people already know. Why are you so late on the trigger?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

btnben's picture

btnben

Wed, 04/18/2012 - 13:55

"AA doesn't care about prescribed meds, and that is in the literature." - The point is that AA members/sponsors tell vulnerable people to stop taking medication. What AA literature says is irrelevant if there are no procedures in place to stop this illegal activity.

And please stop going on about anesthetics. You are trying to derail - again. It was stated as an example where someone was lying to try and impress new people. It wasn't real Clara.

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Tue, 04/17/2012 - 14:02

Not to repeat what I was replying to on another thread to Becket, but yes, I was told I wasn't clean for taking a seizure med for a nerve injury. I'd managed to get off of opiates for the same injury, but somehow these complete idiots knew more than a neurosurgeon? Uh huh. Switch to a different meeting, and they all practically expected you to be on a psych med cocktail and were handing out cards to their own psychiatrists. No one should ever take medical advice from these dolts, which seems to go without saying, but always seems to bear repeating.

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

Ironic's picture

Ironic

Tue, 04/17/2012 - 14:17

http://www.na.org/?ID=bulletins-bull29

And I've never heard benzos okayed, and never heard pain meds okayed unless someone was actively undergoing chemotherapy.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Tue, 04/17/2012 - 14:33

It was a laid back meeting with about 20 court paroles and most of the people were on some type of maintenance and in sober living. They had a stack of cards to sign at the podium. It was a morning meeting and many people just came from a clinic for their daily dose. I will admit that it wasn't like many of the other NA meetings I have been to and they were trying to start their own corrections group because the other groups in the area were just "popularity" contests.The other ones I have been to were 100-175 people and more like an AA meeting,

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Tue, 04/17/2012 - 19:25

About NA, benzos were definitely a no-no in my area and often spoken about negatively. In 2006, a few months after I got off the opiates the first time, I started using ativan regularly. I was intensely anxious most of the time. Panicking might as well have been my middle name. I didn't ever share about my use of this because I knew that I'd be told by the many 'know it alls' that I wasn't sober if I was. It’s kind of hard to work an “honest” program when your personal idea of being clean differs from most of the group. I felt like I was being deceiving but I’m glad that it didn’t bother me enough to stop taking it. It’s too bad that I felt guilty for it too. Wtf? I’m glad that’s over. Btw, I no longer need a benzo for my anxiety. It’s calmed down considerably and when it does occur I have use methods to ease myself down.

A lot of the NA meetings around here were frequented by the same people. I’d say that about half of the regulars opened up their share by saying, “Hi family, my name is xxx and I am an addict'”. And when they said “family”, they meant it. It was very common to have Fred B. come up and comment on particular share and nosey in on another’s program and personal business.

For the record, when talking about medication on the other thread, I was referring to psych meds mostly. Suboxone was another med that was often discussed as being off-limits in many NA circles around here. When I think of the many people that I have met that were “saved” by being able to use Suboxone instead of heroin or other opiods, I actually get kind of teary eyed. To know that the general consensus is that the use of this med constitutes a white key tag (humbling themselves as “using”), I have to say that I get angry. What every happened to keeping your side of the street clean, taking your own inventory, not playing God?

This is the one of the many reasons that I hold firm my belief that meetings and sponsorship need to be regulated. Sponsors need to be told that they should never be interfering personally or giving advice about medication. At the same time, sponsors that break these rules shouldn’t be allowed to move onto the next victim. Meetings also should be monitored also and this is not the only reason why. Not all, but some AA/NA meetings get out of control.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Tue, 04/17/2012 - 19:56

Benzos were completely taboo in groups here as well. It was funny, because several people had the same psychiatrist for suboxone, and he also prescribed benzos, and he was also a former addict and NA member. Er, well, in their terminology, I suppose "former addict" isn't correct, but anyway....

Benzos helped my physical problems immensely! I no longer take them, but when I did it was only at night. When I was falling asleep/already asleep. WTH does that have to do with my sobriety? Or anyone else's? It's this faulty idea that once you become addicted to something you become addicted to anything you ever take or use again, any behaviors you engage in, etc. Plenty of pain patients use opiates w/o becoming addicted, plenty of people use benzos w/o ever being addicted to them. It's not rocket science. Maybe these steppers are just "too smart" for the program the rest of us are on. You know, REALITY.

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

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