Those posters who are familiar with the OP will know the concept dreamt up by Orange. It is an imaginary (as yet) organisation whose aim is to save the newcomer from the grasps of the cult (sounds so ominous...lol). In reality, I'm sure that most of the anti folk on here went to AA because they were misinformed . The problem then was that, after entering through those doors, the REAL job of misinformation began.
I've noticed, over the last few days, new names logging in. Several haven't posted yet, and I thought it could be a good idea to have a thread every few weeks/months about what is happening here as a forum, what plans do people have to get the truth out there, and even how they feel about not going to meetings etc. Just an idea.
live_free_or_die
Sat, 04/14/2012 - 04:53
Permalink
It a comprehensive job judge
Well judge, maybe, just maybe, you are learning?
One of the "character defects" that MArrrietaa admitted to was being stubborn. The MAre admitted to a need to always have the last word. You have the same defect judge.
I have shown through an argument based upon logic and reasoning that without a doubt the "program" of AA/12 steps undoubtedly increases the suicide rate among AA members/12 step attendees. This argument was presented here on the OPF several months ago. The conclusion reached was valid.
In addition, one of my first encounters with you in your current reincarnation as judge becket dealt with this very subject that AA/12 steps kills people. That encounter ended with me asking you to read the numerous letters that Orange gets regarding this very situation, that AA/12 steps is causing suicides among "its" participants. These letters in and of themselves are proof enough that AA/12 steps is killing people. You, judge becket, refused to acknowledge that fact.
Judge becket, your refusal to even consider those letters, actual letters from suffering human beings that have been harmed by AA/12 steps and the hokey religion they profess shows a complete lack of compassion on your part. The AA/12 step side of the street will remain stained with the blood of unfortunates until the unsuspecting general public is educated on the "teachings" of this hokey religion.
Judge becket, you are, unfortunately, a true stepper, a person enveloped in the dogma of a hokey religion, a person in denial. You, becket, remain duped by the conman Bill W. You, becket, are a member of the AA faithful, going forth in the world spouting false beliefs and defending the indefensible.
AA/12 steps have been duping people for something like 75 years, using deception, lies, untruths and manipulation to further its agenda of greed and corruption. AA/12 steps are irresponsible in their continued denial of the death rate among its particpants.
So judge No Balls becket, when one considers all of the letters Orange receives detailing the circumstances of AA member's suicides, when one considers that George Vaillant's famous study proved an increased death rate among AA members, when one applies logic and reason to the effects of teaching a hokey religion to vulnerable people looking for answers to fighting addiction, when one considers all these how can one not agree that AA/12 steps is responsible for increasing suicides among AA/12 step participants.
Judge, you disagree. The AA faithful disagree. Steppers disagree. This is called denial in AA/12 step parlance. It even appears that PennyW disagrees. So be it.
AA/12 steps is killing people. Your side of the street, judge No Balls becket, remains bloodied.
judge becket, you remain duped by a hokey religion. You are a fool.
When Faith Enters, Reason Exits.
AA/12 steps Kills
Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/
becket
Sat, 04/14/2012 - 11:33
Permalink
"I have shown through an
"I have shown through an argument based upon logic and reasoning that without a doubt the "program" of AA/12 steps undoubtedly increases the suicide rate among AA members/12 step attendees. This argument was presented here on the OPF several months ago. The conclusion reached was valid."
Whose logic? Whose reasoning? Yours? Pfft.
A group of letters is not proof of anything. Ask Ironic.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
live_free_or_die
Sat, 04/14/2012 - 12:20
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Denial,denial,denial
Judge becket, you have a serious case of denial.
You are aware that George Vaillant even said that AA kills people?
Numerous letters of suicides caused by AA/12 steps and your response is for me to ask ironic..how weak.
Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/
Clara
Sat, 04/14/2012 - 12:28
Permalink
I don't think George says
I don't think George says that.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
becket
Sat, 04/14/2012 - 13:40
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Vaillant advocated the theory
Vaillant advocated the theory of genetic loading as well as the disease model of alcoholism. Are you cherry-picking again, live_free_or_die?
A program does not kill people. Either a human being kills another or himself. If I could animate a program I would get it to do my taxes for me.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
live_free_or_die
Sun, 04/15/2012 - 05:24
Permalink
Behavior model
I think Vaillant also concluded that alcohol abuse was caused by behavior, or choice. Correct?
However, Vaillant did conclude that his study showed that the AA program killed more people than the other programs studied.
AA kills people.
Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/
live_free_or_die
Sun, 04/15/2012 - 05:24
Permalink
Behavior model
I think Vaillant also concluded that alcohol abuse was caused by behavior, or choice. Correct?
However, Vaillant did conclude that his study showed that the AA program killed more people than the other programs studied.
AA kills people.
Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/
steve cochrane
Fri, 04/13/2012 - 05:58
Permalink
I've been waiting for you to respond to someone in this manner.
and you did not dissappoint me. I knew it would come. First off let me make myself as clear as I can. You cannot look me in the eye nor hear the inflections of my voice. We cannot pause and politely interupt each other in order to have a meaningful and fluid dicussion now can we? Pretty limited this internet shit. Wouldn't you agree becket? We type and respond ,sharpening the pencil point just a little bit more and more and more. Waiting for the next round. For you to say to another human being that their word is NOTHING is just like saying it to yourself. I don't care in what context you use it. I have something to say a little later about the idea that AA may be part of a set of catylsts that could contribute to a person either taking their own life or relapsing even deeper still. Now I want to say to you in no uncertain terms that I will not disrespect you. I will start a new thread later. Start sharpening that pencil becket.
becket
Fri, 04/13/2012 - 18:56
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" . . . the idea that AA may
" . . . the idea that AA may be part of a set of catylsts that could contribute to a person either taking their own life or relapsing even deeper still . . . "
"Part of a set of catalysts" is not a sole, singular and primary reason. You will need thousands of No. 2 pencils sharpened and at the ready to convince me that AA kills people. I've seen both alcoholism and addiction kill people, good friends. I have yet to see the program of AA kill someone. I can understand how the program may have morphed into a widely mis/interpreted concept of the program. I can see how ego and inappropriately-assumed authority have been misapplied in meetings and treatment centers to carry a corrupted message of recovery-or-else. But you can wail on till doomsday about how the program itself killed anyone. I'm interested in what you have to say, steve. We may go a few rounds and still disagree, but I appreciate your fresh approach.
If a man says his word is truth and it's actually a lie, then his word is nothing.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
live_free_or_die
Sun, 04/15/2012 - 10:43
Permalink
AA kills
I am no liar becket.
Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/
Clara
Thu, 04/12/2012 - 13:19
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I wonder why Dolson decides
I wonder why Dolson decides to do that. It was rather interesting. I appreciate your efforts, Ben. It isn't enough to say that there SHOULD be allternatives. PROVIDE them.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
dolson
Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:23
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I wonder why Dolson decides
To expose you troll, and your bountiful lies. How is that fake Masters Degree thesis coming along?
I'm sure it was old man marietta becket.
There are no alternatives to nazi death worship cult of aa.
The only answer required is to leave the cult.
Go ahead, enjoy yourselves - it's getting late, much later than you think.
Ironic
Thu, 04/12/2012 - 16:18
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Just because Steppism is
Just because Steppism is ineffective does not mean it is ben's job to come up with alternatives.
mfc66uk
Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:37
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I was lucky that I had
I was lucky that I had contact with people who had been through AA and left pretty much from the start. One very good friend who has about 20 years told me of the pitfuls and was honest about why he left. He warned me about the big book thumpers and told me to just use it as a place to go where people aren't drinking and don't take any notice of the god shit. He also talked about the bridge to normal living which so few achieve in AA and about the fact that so many in the rooms are crazy and not very well. AA is hardly a collection of sane individuals and I saw that although there were a few that seemed all right. I took on board what he said but it was hard to avoid all the AA advice which did not do me much good. I was not comfortable with people knowing about my problems and did not like the gossip. Some members were so AA minded and had no life appart from it that they did not see telling everyone they were in AA was a problem but it was for me.
After a while I could see the difference between those that had left and got on with their lives and thoses that were trapped in the rooms. I took the decision to leave which was hard as I had been lied to so many times about the consequences but I almost immediately felt better. I am much more solid these days and as I have no fear of relapse I am more open with others. I actually employ an AA member from time to time and we do talk about things especially other methods as he has had a few attempts at stopping and can see that myself and a couple of others don't have any problems. I just tell it as it is and try to offer advice if somebody asks. I do support someone from time to time who has about a year now and hated AA, and she is doing fine. She also suffered from gossip which was dreadful as she needed some privacy.
Personally, I did not get much from those meetings and I always advise one on one help but I do realise that many would not be able to afford it. I always point people in the direction of the range of books on amazon which offer some good ideas for people who who are not suited to sitting in those meetings. I wish that imformation had been available a few years ago but I'm glad things are changing.
I think the most important thing when dealing with someone who is new is just to be there when they need help and not bombard them with solutions . Make hem aware of groups but let them con to there own conclusion. For many , finding a friend so has the strength to beat addiction gives them a major boost an sets them on the right path. Many won't like groups or ant to talk to drs so patience an holding back and just empathising can be the best thing. I wonder how many are put off by kind of recovery by evangelical steppers and their bullshit. It the last thing that many ant to hear when they are desperate and can badly alienate.
Clara
Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:01
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Avo, I WAS talking about
Avo, I WAS talking about myself. All I have are my personal experiences.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
avogadno
Thu, 04/12/2012 - 20:44
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It was still a generalization
It was still a generalization, which is kind of like the puff that is printed and used as advertisements to AA. I know you don't believe in it, but remember AA is brainwashing. They get in the door and walk out thinking they are diseased, going to die unless they work the steps. It's dangerous, since for most people it doesn't help. When it doesn't, people think they have failed the ONE and ONLY way that could help them. Because this is what is so often spouted about in the rooms.
Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/
Clara
Fri, 04/13/2012 - 14:43
Permalink
Avo, I am sorry to disagree
Avo, I am sorry to disagree with you but I have never been in a room where anyone said AA was the only way for everyone, just themselves, and they often HAD tried other things. In fact, what I did hear was that there were other ways and AA isn't for everyone. Take your pick.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Pennywise
Fri, 04/13/2012 - 14:51
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I've heard it lots of times
I've heard it lots of times at lots of meetings. You have not heard it at your group. All the more reason why it is so despicable that you wish to exclude drug addicts from what is perhaps the only 12 Step meeting in the world that is free from all the sordidness that we post about here.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
causeandeffect
Fri, 04/13/2012 - 15:01
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I've heard it loads too. (I
I've heard it loads too. (I've also heard an oldtimer who runs the more Christian cult meetings say "You don't stand a chance unless you accept Jesus Christ as your savior.") I've never heard of any other way, or even an admittance that it was possible. "Work the steps or die." Once I found out that there were alternatives, and I talked to a couple people that I knew were miserable in AA about it, I found that they were just too terrified to leave or even look at anything else. Sad but true.
Troll free AA critical forum
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"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
Clara
Fri, 04/13/2012 - 15:11
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I haven't had anyone force
I haven't had anyone force their higher power on me, and I have never felt if I left the meetings, I would die. I also want't old that. I WAS told that I would more than likely never be able to drink "safely" again (as if I had done that for much of the years previously).
I think alot of this is said for worst case scenarios. Not everyone in AA was a falling down drunk that lived under a bridge. Doesn't mean that I couldn't have been if I hadn't stopped in time.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Persephone In Exile
Fri, 04/13/2012 - 17:33
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Clara, perhaps you should
Clara, perhaps you should branch out then. See what it is some of us here have been experiencing.
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
Orange
Fri, 04/13/2012 - 14:14
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Newcomers Rescue League
In all honesty, I must say that I did not dream up the Newcomers Rescue League.
It was actually a slightly sarcastic remark that somebody made in a newsgroup, I think in alt.recovery.from-12-steps, many years ago, back around 2001 or 2002 or so. The phrase just stuck in my head, and then I started seeing people who were really doing it.
becket
Fri, 04/13/2012 - 19:50
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All right sticklers. A
All right sticklers. A program does not kill a human being. A human being whose ego is on overdrive and who misinterprets the program to suit his or her own agenda has the power to personally, on-on-one, in-your-face make demands of another human being. I still maintain that murder takes place between one human being and another. I don't believe in murder by idea or murder by Chapter 5.
Anyone found that YouTube piece yet? The one that shows an actual book or Ouija Board in a genuine, not cartoon, animated state, clocking some poor SOB? Please send a link.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
Pennywise
Fri, 04/13/2012 - 19:53
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I think that's good, Becket.
I think that's good, Becket. Maybe I was being a stickler. I don't know. But I like how you re-phrased.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
becket
Fri, 04/13/2012 - 19:55
Permalink
Very easy to drop a crumb
Very easy to drop a crumb that turns into a moldy mountain on this forum. I will try to be more careful ;-)
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
live_free_or_die
Sat, 04/14/2012 - 06:51
Permalink
sticking point
Sorry becket, I maintain that belief systems (programs) can kill people. By teaching people a certain belief.
I still maintain, becket, that by taking action on a belief system people kill as a result of their beliefs. Therefore, the belief system can be responsible for death.
Jonestown- hundreds dead based on a belief system
Religious wars - throughout history, millions have been killed based on religious beliefs, and it continues today
Abortion doctor George Tiller murdered in Wichita, Kansas by a religious nutcase who believed he was doing god's work - a belief system.
The Nazi Death Camps - Millions of people killed as a result of a belief system.
These are just a few examples of a belief system causing actions on the part of believers.
See Top Ten Bizarre Belief Systems >> http://listverse.com/2011/08/15/top-10-bizarre-belief-systems/ >> and heavens gate.
I maintain AA/12 steps kills people becket. AA/12 steps is a belief system.
more on beliefs >> http://www.nobeliefs.com/beliefs.htm
Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/
becket
Sat, 04/14/2012 - 14:00
Permalink
The murder is committed by a
The murder is committed by a human being, not by a belief. It is a choice made by the person, not by the philosophy.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
causeandeffect
Sat, 04/14/2012 - 15:10
Permalink
I think when people are
I think when people are somewhat weak-minded murder can be committed by the belief. Nazi Germany comes to mind. I"m sure many of those would have not agreed to those atrocities unless their beliefs had been altered in such a way as to make it acceptable. Also where suicide is concerned we have suicide cults like Heaven's Gate and People's Temple. Those people probably wouldn't have committed suicide on their own. It was a belief system that led them to it.
Troll free AA critical forum
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"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
Pennywise
Sat, 04/14/2012 - 15:29
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I think when people are
I think when people are somewhat weak-minded murder can be committed by the belief.
It was a belief system that led them to it.
I don't think the two statements above are the same thing. I agree with the second but not the first. Beliefs are not real, tangible things. A belief system can't do anything physical like kill someone. Rather, it takes a person acting on a belief system to cause death. I think that was Becket's point, and I'm not going to argue against it.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
causeandeffect
Sat, 04/14/2012 - 15:48
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While it's true that beliefs
While it's true that beliefs are not tangible things, I think they can be very real in the mind of the believer. I wonder how many violent crimes were committed without a belief driving them. I'm sure there are some but I suspect not many. The ideas that egos commit these crimes is more of a spurious argument, in my opinion.
Troll free AA critical forum
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"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
Pennywise
Sat, 04/14/2012 - 16:04
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Beliefs might appear real,
Beliefs might appear real, but they are not "really real" in the sense that they exits floating in air or in the mind waiting to strike out and kill. It could also be said that an ego is a type of belief. So I'm not sure how it could be argued that beliefs can kill whereas egos can't. Perhaps egos and beliefs can kill in an extended sense, but I think it invites confusion to simply state that egos or beliefs can kill. This is especially so in a dialogue where much of what we say will be closely scrutinized by the opposition.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
causeandeffect
Sat, 04/14/2012 - 16:08
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I suppose that would depend
I suppose that would depend on which definition of "ego" one is using.
Troll free AA critical forum
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"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
causeandeffect
Sat, 04/14/2012 - 16:17
Permalink
Becket wants to see a video
Becket wants to see a video of someone being murdered by an idea. I want to see a video of someone being murdered by an ego where it's proven that it was actually an ego. The idea of ego is just a construct. Actually I don't want to see anyone murdered, but you get my point.
Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/
"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
Pennywise
Sat, 04/14/2012 - 16:22
Permalink
Indeed. But what beliefs if
Indeed. But what are beliefs if they are not constructs?
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
Pennywise
Sat, 04/14/2012 - 16:25
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To be fair, I think Becket
To be fair, I think Becket retracted her statement that egos can kill.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
causeandeffect
Sat, 04/14/2012 - 17:01
Permalink
I must have missed it. I can
I must have missed it. I can't find it either.
Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/
"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
SimonTemplar
Wed, 11/07/2012 - 21:16
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My Yoyo's cousin Murdered[Ego]well she wouldn't have sex with me
Last month,along the highway line of our Coffee House restaurant.The second her cousins car was on that line.This arrogant-ego driven I am a fucking professor,she should have been willing to fuck me,piece of shit hit the rear fender,pushed her car over the median into oncoming traffic and killed her.Right in front o Yoyo's retaurant to tell her"SEE WHAT YOU.YOU FORCED ME TO DO.YOU SHOULD HAVE LISTENED
WHEN I ASKED HER TO GO OUT WITH ME.THEN I WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN FORCED BY YOU,BY YOU TO KILL HER.Phuyai.Upper class.Not one fucking day in jail.Thanks Tolson for keeping the leash and chain on Danni's ferocious threats.Most threats Daannnae,sweetie,dearie are to create fear.Beee afraaid of me.I'mm ssooo baaaahh baaah baahhddd.All ego driven sick f--ed up insanity.with your BELIEF that since you have suckseeded b-4.you can keep doing this shit and not worry about doing more time.And anyway.In prison there's lots mohe ah nice guys you can be realy close to.intimate with -as in a bitch slap side the head =intimate.It is much much later than you think.Always your kind believe{BELIEF} that you are soo much smater than anyone else--noone is as smart as you are so how can anyone stop you.It's the little things and the little people who always destroy you.w/or w/o your 26 friends.You mean sexual friends or gang-banger friends?Cause most criminals have no friends.those around you would gladly kill you for your dope or pocket money and then feed their own monkey/not yours. Friends??they're the ones that you can not turn your back on? Right? Or they would kill you and rob you of whatever you have.It really is later than you think.You have overlooked the obvious. Criminals always do,overlook the obvious.
What do we have?that makes it soo important that you"troll" and try to destroy what's said on this forum.
I SPY
causeandeffect
Wed, 11/07/2012 - 21:24
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Simon, I am so, so very sorry
Simon, I am so, so very sorry to hear about your friend's death. That's truly tragic for someone to die for such a petty reason. Unfathomable.
Troll free AA critical forum
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"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
SimonTemplar
Thu, 11/08/2012 - 00:26
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Thank you Cause and effect
it was truly a worthless reason for him to kill her.aanother example of ego destroys life.
I am still crying for the harm that he did to a young woman that I have loved for these 7 yers,simply because when i bought her a tedyy bear.she hugged that bear so close.Daddy has finally come home to em.and he loves meshe has had such a hrd life.i try hard to not get angry with her.i understand her pain her years of waiting fro daddy to say that he lived her.What he did will be punidhed.As is written in teh i Ching'the superior man surrenders it ti heaven."Christian bible."Vengeance is mine.Saith the Lord."Or i would,myself pay to have him kiled.
I SPY
Clara
Sat, 04/14/2012 - 17:02
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Such as people that fly
Such as people that fly planes into buildings?
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Pennywise
Sat, 04/14/2012 - 21:54
Permalink
Beliefs don't fly planes into
Beliefs don't fly planes into buildings; people acting on beliefs fly planes into buildings.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
live_free_or_die
Sun, 04/15/2012 - 07:39
Permalink
Dear PennyW
PennyW said “Beliefs might appear real, but they are not "really real" in the sense that they exits floating in air or in the mind waiting to strike out and kill.” I guess my wireless internet connection isn’t real
PennyW said “Perhaps egos and beliefs can kill in an extended sense, but I think it invites confusion to simply state that egos or beliefs can kill” If there is confusion then refinement and polishing are required. Perhaps billybudd would add eloquence?
PennyW said “Beliefs don't fly planes into buildings; people acting on beliefs fly planes into buildings.” Exactly.
***********************************************************
George Tiller, an abortion provider in Wichita, KS was murdered in 2009 by Scott Roeder.
Roeder was a member of the “Army of God”.
"David Leach, publisher of Prayer & Action News, a magazine that opines that the killing of abortion providers would be justifiable homicide, told reporters that he and Roeder had met once in the late 1990s and that Roeder at that time had authored contributions to Leach's publication.[43][44][45] Leach published the Army of God manual, which advocates the killing of the providers of abortion and contains bomb-making instructions, in the January 1996 issue of his magazine."http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_George_Tiller
"Our purpose is to be a blessing to our dear brother Scott and biblically defend his actions.
Mr. Roeder acted in defense of innocent babies that were being brutally murdered in Wichita, Kansas. His actions were biblical and just."
"On Sunday morning of May 31, 2009 Scott Roeder entered Reformation Lutheran Church and shot George Tiller in the head. Scott had an assignment from Almighty God. He knew he had right-standing with God, not because of anything he had done, but only because of what Jesus Christ had done for him. Since Jesus died on the cross for us and rose again, we too can have right-standing with God and fulfill our God-given purpose." http://www.scottroeder.org/#JUSTIFIABLE
***********************************************************
So if religion is removed from the picture for discussion purposes. Say man had never invented religion.
Would George Tiller be alive?
I maintain that AA through their belief system increases depression in some AA members, members that are already depressed. Depression is the #1 cause of suicide. Therefore, it follows that SOME “alcoholic” AA members commit suicide as a result of believing in the “hokey religion of AA.
Beliefs are as real as the “belief-ee” wants to make them.
PennyW said “This is especially so in a dialogue where much of what we say will be closely scrutinized by the opposition.” Although I understand your point here PennyW, I disagree with you, and not for the first time. AA is killing people and society needs to be educated.
Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/
Pennywise
Sun, 04/15/2012 - 08:34
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I'm afraid we have to
I'm afraid we have to disagree on an ontological level. But look, maybe we disagree on what is meant by "real." What does it mean to you if someone says "the Statue of Liberty is real and exits in NYC?" What type of statement would that person be making about the world? Conversely, what does it mean if someone says "liberty is great and his worth killing for?" What type of statement is that person making about the world? Is the second person making the same type of statement as the first? Why or why not?
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
live_free_or_die
Sun, 04/15/2012 - 09:09
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George Tiller
In my example of a world without religion, would Mr. Tiller still be alive?
Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
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Pennywise
Sun, 04/15/2012 - 10:57
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No idea, but I assume he
No idea, but I assume he would not have been shot by Scott Roeder. What I want to know though is what is the nature of a belief. How does a belief exist, if at all? What does it mean for something to be "real?" In logic, it is impossible for one thing to have contradictory properties at the same time. Can a person hold contradictory beliefs? If so, what does that tell us about the ontological nature of beliefs?
Perhaps this might give you a better picture of where I am coming from:
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/belief/
Some philosophers have denied the existence of beliefs altogether. This view, generally known as eliminativism, has been most prominently advocated by Churchland (1981) and Stich (in his 1983 book; he subsequently moderated his opinion). On this view, people's everyday conception of the mind, their “folk psychology”, is a theory on par with folk theories about the origin of the universe or the nature of physical bodies. And just as our pre-scientific theories on the latter topics were shown to be radically wrong by scientific cosmology and physics, so also will folk psychology, which is essentially still pre-scientific, be overthrown by scientific psychology and neuroscience once they have advanced far enough.
According to eliminativism, once folk psychology is overthrown, strict scientific usage will have no place for reference to most of the entities postulated by folk psychology, such as belief. Beliefs, then, like “celestial spheres” or “phlogiston”, will be judged not actually to exist, but rather to be the mistaken posits of a radically false theory. We may still find it convenient to speak of “belief” in informal contexts, if scientific usage is cumbersome, much as we still speak of “the sun going down”, but if the concept of belief does not map onto the categories described by a mature scientific understanding of the mind, then, literally speaking, no one believes anything.
Instrumentalists about belief regard belief attributions as useful for certain purposes, but hold that there are no definite underlying facts about what people really believe, or that beliefs are not robustly real, or that belief attributions are never in the strictest sense true (these are not exactly equivalent positions, though they are closely related). One sort of instrumentalism—what we might call hard instrumentalism—denies that beliefs exist in any sense. Hard instrumentalism is thus a form of eliminativism, conjoined with the thesis that belief-talk is nonetheless instrumentally useful (e.g., Quine 1960, p. 221 [but for a caveat see p. 262–266]). Another type of instrumentalism, which we might call soft instrumentalism, grants that beliefs are real, but only in a less robust sense than is ordinarily thought. Dennett (1991) articulates a view of this sort. Consider as an analogy: Is the equator real? Well, not in the sense that there's a red stripe running through the Congo; but saying that a country is on the equator says something true about its position relative to other countries and how it travels on the spinning Earth. Are beliefs real? Well, not perhaps in the sense of being representations stored somewhere in the mind; but attributing a belief to someone says something true about that person's patterns of behavior and response. Beliefs are as real as equators, or centers of gravity, or the average American. The soft instrumentalist holds that such things are not robustly real (if that makes sense)—not as real as mountains or masses or individual, actual Americans. They are in some sense inventions that capture something useful in the structure of more robustly real phenomena; and yet at the same time they are not mere fictions. Soft instrumentalism in this sense comports naturally with approaches to belief such as dispositionalism and interpretationism, to the extent those positions treat belief attribution simply as a convenient means of pointing toward certain patterns in a subject's real and hypothetical behavior.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
Persephone In Exile
Sun, 04/15/2012 - 08:43
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LFOD, wow. I didn't know that
LFOD, wow. I didn't know that site even existed, though I'm not surprised. Not really. Completely off topic comment here, that was just the most vile thing I've seen in a quite some time.
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
live_free_or_die
Sun, 04/15/2012 - 11:10
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The Army of God
They are some crazy bastards.
Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
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becket
Sun, 04/15/2012 - 11:26
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Any person with the capacity
Any person with the capacity to walk into a house of worship and shoot an unarmed man in the head is of such character (or lack thereof) that he would be capable of doing so no matter what his "religion". That said, there is a distinction between "belief" and "extremism". The Army of God is a very well-known anti-abortion extremist group which actively campaigns for murder, death, and destruction, all the while invoking Jesus and Christian scripture. The argument that Christianity made Scott Roeder kill Dr. Tiller is the same one dangled ten years ago that Islam made 9/11 happen. It didn't. Horrible human beings chose to use perversions of these faiths to justify their desired outcomes, just as the Army of God does, just as Roeder did. I think any individual who so lacks a moral center to do something like that in the name of religion would do so in the name of a tuna sandwich just as easily.
"According to a statement issued by his brother David, Roeder has suffered from bouts of mental illness." ~ "Time US", June 2, 2009
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
live_free_or_die
Sun, 04/15/2012 - 12:14
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No question
that he wasn't a crazy bastard.
My point, becket, is that belief systems can cause people to take actions that are harmful. And flying airplanes into buildings were actions taken because of a belief system. That is my belief, that is my opinion and I will express that opinion.
The analogy to a tuna sandwich is absurd.
Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/
becket
Sun, 04/15/2012 - 12:38
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"In my example of a world
"In my example of a world without religion, would Mr. Tiller still be alive?" This was your question. I have answered your question.
If Tiller's shooter had a history of mental illness, then how authentic or rational were his beliefs, what were they based on, and how accountable are they for what he did? With mental illness driving his extreme "morality" (which was essentially immoral), how would you even characterize his beliefs? This mentally ill man is solely culpable for the murder of George Tiller. Religion is not responsible. Righteousness is not responsible. This crime was premeditated and carried out with cold determination. The man is a murderer, not a man thinking about murder. He actually committed the crime himself. His hand held the gun, he aimed at Tiller's head, he squeezed the trigger. Roeder was a self-proclaimed Christian. I don't believe I ever read any account of the Sermon on the Mount that said, "Blessed are the mentally ill, for once they pull that trigger theirs is the kingdom of God."
The tuna sandwich is not an analogy: is the argument. This man had the capacity to commit this crime without any self-righteous intent. He was primarily a murderer and secondarily a religious zealot. His "belief" in his own justification was as flimsy as a "belief" that a tuna sandwich made him pull the trigger.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
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