Anybody out there with YEARS clean now drinking socially with no blackouts, problems or cravings?

I am getting on towards 22 years drug free.... This is an interesting time.

One of the mind sets that flavours the ferment is that of "Me, Mine and My Own" - this is my experience // and therefore this ONE (or number of) experience of this incident // treatment // attitude etc., defines the whole issue, and therefore everyone else MUST validate me and what I say by going along with it.

Not so.

As much as I despise the brainwashing cult of AA and many of the culti-mind setted members and the range of bullshit and game playing and all that crap - and the HUGE waste of time most of my years in AA treatment have been...

The facts are that for me with the the range of really serious abuse and neglect issues, the amount of head injuries, and having been destroyed by the consequential flow on experiences - as a result of growing up in my family - well when it came down to it - AA and NA and the meeting rooms were all that I had.

They were the ONLY places that I could turn too - and just fit in and go with the flow and pick up some life skills like talking, and finding my voice and learning how to count money and setting up meetings and basic book keeping and the legendary - "Doing Inventory".....

So here I am today.

I live in a small Australian country town, addiction to alcohol and the crazy family and small town clicques and gossip and being a fucking normal sleaze are endemic......

And just how mad you have to be in order to fit in with the crap - unreal.

So I keep my own company and that is good.

It's the sort of place that "masturbating yourself into a frenzy because so and so told you something about that person and Oh well we all know about that person don't we"...

There will be 500 piss heads at the local do, down the race track - all busy bad mouthing those who are into owning their own shit - but non of them have the balls to develop their own relationship - and to get their own opinions based upon their own experience.....

So stupid is as stupid does. That and their crazy partners and their crazy kids and their crazy friends and their crazy clubs and cliques.

I have no desire to use again - and I don't want to have to do that, in order to lower my standards, just to fit in with the crazies and their bullshit.

But of late.... one of the local junkie women who was having a hard time of it - because her mother is an absolute arsehole, and she fucked her kids up - like she had been fucked up, and the kids have grown up having trashed lives and trashed relationships and all the insanity and drugs and all... and then they do to their kids and the kids just keep right on living out the cycles of shame and abuse and all... and the only people any of then know how to relate too are people fucked up just like them.

That WAS the story of my life too - only I got out, stayed out, and the progression of recovery took over.

Well I laid a little sympathy on this junkie chick and she is as fucking mad as.... anyway after trying to invite me over to the pub for a drink the next time I ran into her - at about 10.30 in the morning - a few weeks later....

The shit just rolled on - and One day I ran into her again and rather than take advantage of the fact that she was in the presence of someone who was 21 years drug free and knew the ropes and how to deal with the issues - she chose to bury her head into playing a game on her mobile phone while sitting in the car.....

I just laughed and said, "what a wanker" and pedalled off...

So she starts bad mouthing me to her son, and this kid - all of 15 and 6' - starts bad mouthing me every time I pass him and he starts getting rather untoward.....

I ask his sister one day on a chance meeting in a shop - "Does he have a good relationship with his father? - the father is dead.

I asked "What about any uncles or cousins or teachers or anyone - does he have any older men to relate with and who are looking out for him?....

So I don't know what happened then, but this kid started coming around and throwing my bins at my door and kicking it and getting his idiot friends to join in - and because it's a small town, some of the other kids who would be getting into the booze and the drugs - with the 40yo drug fucked idiot in the end unit, started getting into this crap of throwing stuff at my door and breaking bottle around the place on my and the other residents foot path - and banging on the windows of my and other peoples units at 4am....

Well windows got broken and charges were laid and all that....

The shit bag boozer in the end unit - is facing eviction.... by the skin of his teeth.

The kids are basically NOT allowed back on the property to visit him in "unreasonable hours".

But you know..... one of the local junkies in the area, who refuses to deal with his shit and I think is hiding behind the label of "bi-polar", well you know he like to go on a bender now and then and hang out with the first junkie chick, and her delinquent son, and so this guy comes around and throws half a house brick through my window and he is a real fucking tool....

I heard the back door of the house next door close - a guy who he had been drinking with, the 1/2 brick was covered in moss - like all the bricks on the ground in the yard next door, the brick was an ancient local brick that was sandy and crumbly - like the bricks in the house and it's yard next door... and the guy was standing wayyyyy down in the back yard of a country house block, in the dark listening in to a conversation another person was having with the cops over the fence - at 11pm at night...

And a few nights later, this same guy drives his car up to my front door step and gets out and starts mouthing off how he is going to run me out of town and come back and shoot me - and - and - and and...

The laws of the land are that you can tell him to leave - but you can't beat the daylights out of him for not doing so... you have to call the police.

So went back inside to get my phone to record this "I am going to kill you" bullshit - and the phone took 20 seconds to boot up, then another 20 seconds to get a signal and another 10 seconds to read the memory and SIM cards.... and I was shaking and trying to configure the buttons and not clearly thinking and all - and by that time the guy had left.....

So I rang the police and he got nailed about half an hour later - and in Australia there is a 0% blood alcohol level for probationary drivers, and he at 45 years old... had been drinking... and he had probably lost his license before and was on one of the "get it again" come backs....

You could hear him screaming at the cop from 3 blocks away....

LOL

So anyway he got a fine for the threatening language, and he's done his license and his vehicles for a long time....

But the prick is a boozer arsehole - who hangs out with the other dead shits who love to slag other people off behind their backs and then takes it upon himself to big time himself in the process.

But what shook me was the "intensity of his crazyness" and it only happened for the first time in years that I actually contemplated returning to drinking as a means of escaping the insanity that I had been exposed too.

That some other fucking arsehole, had refused to take responsibility for, and had chosen to pedal it into my life.

So I did the fall back onto the tools that do work - such as "ringing a sponsor" or an "aware" or "on the ball recovering person".

I told them that in relation to my incest issues - that the stress of dealing with these sick fucks and their toxic abuse - was really causing me to fragment in relation to my incest issues......

I chose to handle the matter totally legally and to put it all in the hands of the police instead of rounding all these "fucking arseholes" and their bullshit and their crazy families up - and handling the matters in a way that would divert me from my chosen path in life.

And I chose to inventory it... pencil to paper - get it out of my head and down in print.

AA and NA aside - these ARE valuable skills.

So recovery for me is still an active process - that although I do not go to "meetings" anymore - because I am just tired of all the sick fucks in the fellowship - just as much as I am not prepared to entertain all the inbreds and the shit they pedal in small town life....

I do do a LOT of recovery type stuff on a daily basis - and yes I do like to crank on some AA speaker tapes etc., however I also do a far greater range of resources and materials than just AA or NA.

That is the difference for me.

I guess I could equate it as like the difference between being stuck upside down in a car, and then being able to right it, and finding it to have it's wheels stuck in a muddy ditch.

I mean AA and NA etc., do go some where, but it's more of a muddy rut, than a real opportunity to get out of the shit entirely.

Surpisingly some of the other 12th step fellowships like Sex Addicts Anonymous and Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous have been the most helpful in terms of gaining healthy relationship skills and learning how to have them, starting with myself.

My only real blunder into drinking was about 5 months ago when the biggest flood ever came through the place and there was alledged to be some nasties in the water and in the clean up, and I did not have any disinfectant handwash - so I found that PURE denatured alcohol was too strong and "fumey" - so I mixed it up about 60% water : 40% alcohol - in a "drinking water bottle"..... left next to the "drinking water bottle" that had the alcohol based lamp fuel in it....

So not remembering exactly what I had done, with what bottles, because some were partly drunk water filled bottles..... I picked up the bottle with the alcohol based lamp fuel in it - went to drink it and caught a sniff of near pure alcohol - and put that down; and immediately picked up the bottle beside it - with the 60:40 alcohol mix that was my disinfecting hand wash - and because my sense of smell had just been blasted with alcohol fumes from the other bottle - I did not smell the diluted alcohol in the second bottle......

And I took a HUGE swig - like about half of a 350ml bottle of 40% alcohol....

Before I went "Ooops".

Well I was kind of frightened that THAT amount of alcohol going into my system, might trigger off some kind of compulsion - but it didn't.

I did try to vomit it up and couldn't make it happen - fingers down the throat - strong salt water drinks, etc., etc., etc..

The paramedic could not give me anything like ipecac syrup - because too many people have heart attacks, and they could not pump my stomach etc..

I would not die from it - and so I just had to "ride the intoxication" out.....

I have a broken back, head injuries etc., and there are times when I do feel disorientated, and woozy and nauseas... that is standard fare from time to time.....

After 21 years of being drug free - that is pretty much what the alcohol "stone" felt like.

Dizzy, unwell and sick. And I thought "I get this for free without having to drink".

As I was walking around - still having to continue on with my business - I also felt, "I really do not like being stoned on alcohol - I don't like the feeling and I don't like being "out of it" on the alcohol.

I also connected with the fact that Methylated Spirits IS a fucking rough drop.

I felt unwell in the guts from that for a few weeks.....

I also came to the conclusion, "I don't ever want to use again - it's fucking shit; it's an impairment to being alive and fully participating INSIDE of my own life and participating within LIFE.

It's like watching a TV program on the Scottish Highlands, instead of going and hiking them.

It's that horrible disconnected, living death sensation.

So I am happy being drug free ONE day at a time. I am happy with myself for making that decision to do what ever it takes to get drug free and stay drug free - NO MATTER WHAT.

I am also happy that in amongst all the REALLY REALLY BAD BRAIN WASHING of AA and NA, I also got some REALLY FUCKING GOOD BRAIN WASHING....

These are what I call "Fundamental Principles" - by doing the things that keep one ordered, structured and grounded, instead of hysterical, clueless and spiraling out of control.

With the experience that I do have of being around AA and NA for a LONG time, as fucked as the fellowships are, and the "program of recovery is" as a way to get drug free and stay drug free - it's much like the Hitler Youth Movement;

As one guy said - "I was poor, my mother was a widow, we were often hungry and - and - and - the Hitler Youth Movement - they gave me regular meals, discipline, a place to belong, a nice uniform - good warm clothes and shoes, and we got to go on trips away hiking through the mountains and do all sorts of activities like gliding and shooting etc., etc., etc.

He said that without the Hitler Youth Movement - he would have had nothing.

It's the same for me with NA and AA etc.. these things were important and they still are important - BUT like how the Hitler Youth Movement was a great way to indoctrinate the entire youth of a country as a form of preemptive training for war in the armed forces..... NA and AA - those people - even with all their mind fuck bullshit - some of them were kind, and there were significant times in my life if I had not of had the routine of going to meetings and going to more meetings and going to more meetings and ringing my sponsor and going to more meetings and doing my inventory etc., I would have slid right off the edge - because there was things going on in my life from time to time that were just too fucking hard to cope with - and I could not have gotten through them without these people and without the structure and meetings of NA and AA.

I mean the XMAS dinner meetings were kind of ordinary - but I had a place were I belonged, where I could go to and where I did not have to be alone.....

And that was good up till the day that I could accept that christmas was just a bogus imposition and I didn't have to feel down about any of it or myself because of how the other members of my family played their cards in regards to maintaining contact or holding celebratory get togethers...

For me - every day is a day of celebration, it's brilliant being drug free, and good, bad or indifferent, I am grateful for all that I have and for all that I have experienced - because today I have so much more to give. I am a richer and more capable person both as a result of these experiences and what I have chosen to do about them.

Excellent DVD of an old "20/20" episode from 2000 that discusses the idea of going back to "moderation" (alcohol only!) after having an addiction to it. Marc Kern is featured in this episode. Its called "Drinking: Are You In Control"?, and can be purchased at Amazon.com. Marc Kern is also the source behind "habitdoc.com".

Honestly I am happy for you. I stopped at 18 and sober 36 years and left AA last spring for Good. I F****king hate its Bullshit. Anyway....I know a few who posted on the ST thread whY I left AA who were young and successfully drinking moderately. Forget talking to AA koolaid drinking fools about it. There are alot our there, sorry to say not me. But I interviewed one guy for my film who is doing it successfully. I hate the black & white think in AA mindset. Enjoy! my blogs are www.leavingaa.com and www.stop13stepinaa.wordpress.com actually many early posts on the 13 stepping blog told of stories where the woman left AA and did fine away from it.

I had alot of sad days as I was leaving because I felt my life was ripped off from me in a way from all of AA' depressing belief systems. I actually morned my years in AA LOL....

WE are like men who have lost their legs they never grow new ones. How Screwed up is that?

Yes, I agree there. I only "experimented" once, after three years of perfect sobriety. Alas, I slipped right back down that slippery slope and went out for 9 years, until things got really bad. Some experiments are better left undone.

Have a good day now.
== Orange

In fact, he did just the opposite.

catswalkintoabar-I needed to hear this. Thank you. I began attending AA on my 18th b day. How sad this sounds to me now. Hmmm I wanted to stop. I did on my own 2 weeks before I met Tom Catton who wrote a book recently The Mindful Addict. Anyway, Tom told me about AA on the beach and I went. I had already stopped drinking on my won for two weeks after drinking daily for many months. There were months I didnt drink daily.

Im glad to hear that you are drinking normally. I wonder. I left AA last May after trying to make it safer. The resistance was so sick and horrible it forced me to dig on the web and I found OP then ST then after weeks and months of reading when I went to my weekly woman's meeting I was hearing Chapter 5 and It sounded ridiculous. I found ST and OP January 2009. It was then that I was doing the inside work. I made some change but it was so horrific and isolating. Two years past. But Exactly a year ago after Tracy White was murdered and Kristine Cass was murdered along with her daughter and the way the A member justified the killings and the rapes I was so disgusted I went to my meeting and told the women why I was leaving. But the way you described AA as I place where you go forever...why? I actually saw that many of the old-timers unless they did outside work got sicker as they stayed. I felt so free when I left. I went to some SMart Recovery meetings and I Created a blogtalkradio, and I am making a film about it. A Documentary.

I am involved with activism to make change regarding AA and criminal behavior in meetings and it's culture.

Again, thank you for your post! www.leavingaa.com

micha- how sad. Your post really made me sad. Is it that I realate in some ways. Our stories are so different. But I think like you it is so damaging to believe this Bullshit. I say a Dr Phil that made me so made as they bullied a 25 year old. But for me at age 18 to drink such cult crap...it makes me sad and furious sometimes.

I have two sons. ANd one started to drink and I was still in AA. I told him he had 50 % chance. Oh my GOD! This created more problems. Long story short, as I saw the light, I told him all I learned from Stanton Peele and Rational ANd Smart Recovery.

He now drinks moderately and has one beer and stops easily. I am so grateful I left AA when I did. I just wish I knew this a few years sooner. My sons laugh with me now as I make fun of AA and it's stupidity. But it did hurt him to say the things I did. I even had therapists that thought this crap was true.

Those who allegedly "can't", CAN, but CHOOSE NOT TO! Alcohol is an inanimate object that does not MAKE its ingestor ingest it, anymore then your computer keyboard MAKES you type your response to this on it! THAT is the "side" people addicted to alcohol need to understand.

There is no "unable" in "not exercising free will and thought", its UNWILLING TO! 12-Step group attendees are a bunch of pathetic wastes of oxygen consumption, who REFUSE to utilize their own mental and physical ability to END a destructive BEHAVIOR (which CAN BE CHANGED!). If more of them would DIE as a result of their unwillingness, the group numbers would drop, groups would vaporize, and this problem called "12-Step groups" would DIE OFF (as I wish their adherents would!).

Dennis - I loved to here this. The reason is being that I think the AA all or nothing are not true. I too was brainwashed by AA think when I was 18. Although I wanted to quit for good on my own which I did, but after all the sexual predators who preyed on me I did want to leave AA and I should have. But I did not.

Fast forward 36 years. I left in May. But now I look back and wonder about not drinking at all forever.

I really like Kenneth Anderson's way, Hams Harm Reduction. I think that is what DUI's need to be taught as well as our teens.

I think out court s and culture has be severely brainwashed with the all or nothing abstinence AA way.

...and I have this disease.

"I fully intend to drink again..."

Yeah, right sweatheart! You let me know how this works out for you, darling. Of course it's a fucking disease! Everything in life is, INCLUDING your denial. Good luck, Fucktard.

"take what you want and give it away".

aasaux- and I do not believe alcohol is a gateway drug to relapse. That's all steppism dogma intended to scare you into attendance and conformity. Screw them. Cheers.

I agree. It's a lie. Some I believe should not drink at all. But others can learn to use harm reduction.

Yes, I'm with you on that one too.

Did you know that Dr. Kenneth Blum, who discovered the first gene for alcoholism, gave an interview that is reprinted in the SOS book, and in it he said that genetic alcoholics cannot moderate — that total abstinence is best for them.

See "SOS Sobriety, The Proven Alternative to 12-Step Programs" by James Christopher.
Bibliography entry here:
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-bibliography.html#SOS

I'm a genetic alcoholic, just like my father and his mother, and total abstinence is actually pretty darned easy, but all attempts at moderate or controlled drinking failed. It just never worked out. It's like alcohol clouds my brain and moderate drinking looks too darned wimpy to be any fun.

So I just don't drink any alcohol at all, and life is good.

It could well be that the people who don't have the genes for alcoholism really can just taper off and moderate and live successful happy lives with the occasional drink. But I know that isn't my fate. I think it really comes down to a matter of two distinctly different kinds of people.

Social drinker.

The physical withdrawal is horrendous. So I cannot safely use alcohol

Nuff said.... that's a reasonable and rational explanation. No need for all the fluff associated with the AA dogma..... you simply STOP or continue to poison yourself and be sick. It's your choice at this point.