Mandate AA Headquarters -The Reading of Safety Literature before every meeting…

massive's picture
Submitted by massive on Wed, 11/23/2011 - 20:53

Forums:

PLease sign and post everywhere, forward to all you know who care. Thanks!
3
Mandate The Reading of Safety Literature before every meeting that states: No members should be sexual or financially harassed in any way. Make it policy from the top down to all meetings that there be a safety Poster on every wall in all meeting halls and that literature stating that there is a zero tolerance policy in regards to Sexual Harassment and Battery in all AA meetings, in line with all existing current state and federal laws.

That’s why I created a petition to Alcoholics Anonymous Headquarters-Phyllis Halliday, General Manager-President, which says:

“Judges are sentencing 3rd Level Sex Offenders and Violent Criminals as part of their plea bargains to AA meetings unknown to current AA members and the Public at large. There is a rampant problem with Sexual harassment, Battery and rape being covered up in AA, it’s culture, and by the AA Community and the press.”

Will you sign this petition? Click here:

Submitted on 2011/11/22 at 6:22 PM
The Petition being signed and sent to the corporate offices of Alcoholics Anonymous at the Interchurch Center 475 Riverside Drive 11th Floor, New York can also be reached by these shortened URL’s:

Shortest URL for twitter distribution: http://bit.ly/sDd7Ys

A slightly longer URL that can be used for distribution: http://tinyurl.com/cu4g22u

Thanks!

istj04

Wed, 11/23/2011 - 23:20

I will NOT sign this petition on two grounds: 1.) In the "upside-down" pyramid of a power structure of AA, the LOCAL GROUPS have all the control as to what happens, doesn't happen, gets announced, or doesn't get announced at any given meeting (AAWS cannot "mandate" anything for ANY local group to do!), and 2.) If the word gets out that there are enough sex predators, stalkers, gang-bangers, sociopaths, etc. in enough AA meetings, the sane people will leave the meetings causing their existence to VAPORIZE! Let the attendance of the sickos/perverts/stalkers, etc. be the UNDOING of local AA groups, and NOT allowing them to continue to exist!

massive's picture

massive

Wed, 11/23/2011 - 23:57

too many are actually being raped and sexually harassed in hundreds by the day!

The groups have no control over AA as a whole. Example: in a city like Los Angeles there are 3000 meetings. about 75 GSR's might show up at a Monthly district meeting. Out of 75 about half of those meetings will actually have a real business meeting where they discuss and really vote on a topic.

WHen I brought up the mandating of criminals and DUI's to a GS Employee last year, she said, "well we asked the fellowship to discuss it and they said they didnt care." Really? There is no way in hell there was a real sense of how the 2/3 of the fellowship who were still actively going to meetings felt. I could tell you we had a sense of it back then and it was a clear no. But AA makes half it's money, some 6 million on selling it's books to rehab, prison and treatment. SO the few who make big bucks in NY and who get retirement for life don't want that gravy train to stop.

No one in a meeting has bought a bb in 20 years. They all give them away. The upside down triangle is a joke. So if this is just a representation of one city....it's the same in Phoenix, in NY and in Hawaii etc.

EVen if AA gets right sized, many of us still feel that inside the culture and rooms its bad because of the horrible 13 stepping, sexual predatory behavior going on by it's long term current members hitting on newcomers sometimes 30 years younger then themselves...not the DUI's and not the violent criminals, although have and are doing lots of damage and murder as well. The equally criminal behavior morally is going on by the regular AA members themselves. Do you see this?

NA changed it's servcie structure years ago without the consent of the fellowship. Are you kidding. Have the groups run a million dollar non profit. NA was honest about how it really works and their Board knows it. After that woman was raped by the guy who answered the NA hotline . They CHANGED it.
ALso NA MANDATED from the top down that no prayers were to be said. No more Lords Prayer no more Serenity Prayer at the end or beginning. It makes NA too religious therefore not acceptable for court mandates either.

Its ok , dont sign it. But I want you to see another side.

Massive

istj04

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 10:53

As opposed as I am to the recurrent, never-ending victimization and exploitation that occurs in ANY 12 Step meeting, I would rather that they get the reputation FOR such behavior so as to facilitate their demise! After all, can anyone nowadays look at a Catholic priest without thinking "undercover pedophile" in a robe?
I hope that 12 Step groups can ALL get that level of a reputation, and the stronger people vote with their FEET accordingly!

massive's picture

massive

Fri, 11/25/2011 - 00:09

I understand why and what you are saying, but this list and petition is validating to those that have been harmed and it helps document how many of them have been harassed.

itsj04@I hope that 12 Step groups can ALL get that level of a reputation, and the stronger people vote with their FEET accordingly!

As I said before many are leaving, I left but they think they are above the law. I am trying to stop another 16 year old from being raped by a 54 male member with 24 years in the program. Th eLight has to shine of the roaches long after we are gone.

Massive

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Fri, 11/25/2011 - 18:56

Have you seen this letter?

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters253.html#A_Nony_Mouse

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

massive's picture

massive

Mon, 12/05/2011 - 21:13

great letter from Orange. Th eLetter from Paul was sent to me in a different form in Oct 2009. It set me on fire to do the work inside AA. I did the best I could. They were so fucked up in the westside District Meetings. There was almost a rumble. People were screaming at each other across the room. No Minority Report WAs ALlowed EVER!!!!!!!!They are f*****king liars , wimps, and weak. Did I say Weak. Yea.

Massive

marietta davis's picture

marietta davis

Fri, 11/25/2011 - 00:18

"I get what you are saying but in the meantime ... too many are actually being raped and sexually harassed in hundreds by the day!"

I have a certain tolerance for smart hyperbole but this stretches any semblance of believability beyond the breaking point. Are you planning on documenting this claim?

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 10:38

They'll still have to get slips signed, unless they forge them. Remember, most of the people at meetings are there because they have to be. They leave as soon as they are no longer under an obligation, and new coercees take their place.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 19:50

I have to disagree with your approach. In my opinion, massive is on the right track here.

I posted the 2010 income statements and balance sheets for both GSB and WS for two reasons.

1. To show that the AA has in excess of $19,000,000 in liquid assets.
2. To show that AA and the "executives" are in the game for money in the form of retirement.

The reference to the Catholic Church and the ongoing Penn State situation are similar, imo, to the AA situation in that the problems seem to be being ignored. Well, the Church has paid for that and I am sure Penn State will be paying as well.

As to "vaporizing" AA, I could couldn't care less. I only went to few open meetings as mandated and did not see any of these incidents that have been pointed out. I was completely unaware of the magnitude of the problem. I have to say that AA probably has helped people with their addiction.

That being said, I have worked for large companies in my career and they all have HR departments and they also have written harassment policy manuals that all employees have to sign as being read and understood. The policy manual is, for the most part, CYA tactic to minimize the company's liability.

I don't care how decentralized AA is in their organization, if the executives are aware of the problem and take no action to protect these women (primarily) their collective ass is on the line.

I suggest certified letters be sent to AA headquarters, all executives and AA's outside counsel. That way there is a paper trail that can't be argued away.

I have said before on this forum that I think a class action lawsuit needs to be filed. Of course a lawsuit requires people to come forward to join the suit. I would think a good attorney can win the case based on everything I have seen posted on this forum recently. Of course the attorney that takes the case can't be a member of AA and that could prove difficult.

AA obviously has money and I am sure they have insurance. Sue their asses off.

Sue the judges, the cities, the counties, the prosecutors, the district attorneys, the probation officers, the state departments of corrections, the secretary/directors of doc, the state attorney generals, the governors, and finally, the states. Sue them as organizations, sue them as individuals.

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 23:08

A few of the entities you listed will have immunity. Judges, for example, have judicial immunity. Prosectors have prosecutorial immunity, and states, under certain circumstances, have sovereign immunity. Also, it might be tough to maintain a class action when the facts behind each alleged instance are individualized.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Fri, 11/25/2011 - 12:36

Why must you attempt to take the wind out of the sails? Is not the ship's journey underway? Are you onboard?

Judges can be sued. However, I concede your point that, based on quick research, it ain't easy. It might be the same for prosecutors and states. I am not yet convinced - I will do further research but..........................name the bastards anyway. Publicity does wonders.

Pennywise said "Also, it might be tough to maintain a class action when the facts behind each alleged instance are individualized". Might be tough? So. Need to find an attorney that was convicted of DUI and sent to AA as part of his disciplinary action so he can get his license back?

Possible scenario: AA corporate is aware of the sexual harassment issue (documented). Rapes occur in Florida and California subsequent to AA corporate being duly notified of the problem. Now let us say the rapists had been sent to AA by courts and DOC. Convictions are obtained in both cases. Scenario facts as stated are 1). Rapes occurred (not alleged). 2). There are convictions (the women came forward). 3). The crimes occurred in different jurisdictions.

Seems to me there are grounds for a class action. Of course I am not an attorney. If no class action is available then maybe separate cases. Sue everybody and their mother. Throw in the kitchen sink. Charge negligence, incompetence, unconscionable acts, public policy.

Just some thoughts.

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Fri, 11/25/2011 - 15:02

Friend, I am not trying to take the wind from the sails. I'm on your side. I just think that knowledge is power, even if that knowledge is not what you want to hear. As our ship sets sail, it helps to prepare for storms.

As far as suing judges and prosecutors, it is VERY tough to overcome immunity when they are acting in their official capacities. Suing states is tough too. Remember, in the Hawaii case, the plaintiff sued his PO. He did not sue a judge, prosecutor, or the state. The reason is that the PO had only qualified immunity as opposed to absolute immunity. But suing in state court of course might be different. The Hawaii case was in federal court.

You said: "Seems to me there are grounds for a class action. Of course I am not an attorney. If no class action is available then maybe separate cases."

I think the separate cases strategy would be more likely to succeed. But that is not to say a class action would for sure fail. The first hurdle would be getting the judge to certify the class, which isn't easy in any context.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Fri, 11/25/2011 - 15:55

http://bobhurt.com/articles/law%20-%20How%20to%20Bring%20Justice%20to%20...

Pennywise, I know from your forum posts that you are on the good ship. I was just making what I thought was a cute comment about the wind in the sails.

The above article is a good read.

The author points out that maybe Louisiana might be a good state for a separate case. I presume he means the fact that LA follows Napoleonic law, not Common law?

Can an argument be made that civil rights are being violated? I especially took note of the part (towards the end of the article) to remain anonymous in the pursuit. How Ironic.

Without a doubt knowledge is power. We are sharing our knowledge, and gaining power. When I am of an opinion, I don't like to hear "can't be done". I have to exhaust all possibilities.

AA turns their back on the problem. The courts and judges are perpetuating the problem. A known violent criminal is placed in an environment where vulnerable people can be victimized? Somebody is responsible. If the criminal is just put in jail, or prison, said criminal commits no crime. By the act of placing that criminal in AA someone is complicit in the crime.

So, rough seas ahead, I got my storm gear at the ready. And...................massive just might be at the start of amassing the Perfect Storm, heading to New York.

Have a good day.

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Fri, 11/25/2011 - 21:43

"Can an argument be made that civil rights are being violated?"

Yes. The federal civil rights statute is 42 U.S.C. § 1983. That is the statute plaintiffs typical invoke when they wish to sue state governments (typically) in federal court. State courts can, however, adjudicate 1983 claims. But that won't overcome judicial immunity if you are suing the judge. Now, if you are forced into AA by the courts, you can file a 1983 suit arguing that your 1st Amendment rights have been violated. One remedy would be an injunction. Another remedy would be damages. But such a suit would not be filed against the judge himself, but rather against an entity enforcing the judge's ruling.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Fri, 11/25/2011 - 21:54

In 2008 Judge Mark Ciavarella was arrested and convicted for illegally sending 4000 children to PA Childcare (Hazelden style) Drug Rehab Centers. They were not assessed for substance abuse, they were just sentenced to facilities that gave him kickback of about 2.6 million. Many children have committed suicide due to heavy depression after leaving. Judge Ciavarella is now it jail, most likely for the rest of his life. The 4000 survivors are trying to sue him, but having problems. The Juvenile Law Center has taken the case in a class action lawsuit. I covered it here:

http://stinkin-thinkin.com/2011/03/01/face-of-damage-done-by-rehab-corru...

Wikipedia has also picked it up and may have newer information:

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

DeConstructor's picture

DeConstructor

Mon, 11/28/2011 - 15:34

"Over the GW"

There was copy of it online but I cannot find it now. The film was directed by a person that was in one of these hell holes and they would not let him out.

I do have to wonder if that judge is serving time with some of the former clients of that place. They must have to keep him in administrative segregation. I would imagine there is quite a target on his back.

marietta davis's picture

marietta davis

Mon, 11/28/2011 - 16:25

If a known violent criminal is placed in in an environment where vulnerable people can be victimized, it does not necessarily mean that violence will be perpetrated upon the unsuspecting. However, if violence does occur due to this wrong-headed placement, who is responsible? Everyone stops short of assigning blame or guilt. Is it the court? The judge? The state law? Is it the fault of the organization who provides the environment, such as AA or NA? Is it the fault of the criminal him- or herself? How far back do you want to go within the system to rectify this error, or this shining on of responsibility? You say AA turns its back on the problem, but what is AA supposed to do in the face of a court order?

I believe criminals belong in jail, and that includes the innocent June Carver, in pearls and a shirtwaist dress, who gets bombed on four beers and drives drunk to pick up her husband at the train station. Her crime against the unsuspecting is just as severe and just as unacceptable as that of the career criminal who has made it a lifetime skill to skirt the law, and who chooses AA or NA over jail time. I don't think either of these offenders should be given any option but to go to court, be sentenced and serve their time in jail. They know going into it that there may be consequences for committing these crimes. If they get caught they should be shown the jailhouse door, not the AA door, not the NA door, not community service. I do not believe they should be permitted to avail themselves of any sympathetic ear by way of AA, NA, Rational Recovery, SMART, or any other "treatment" model while in jail. They should just do their time like grown ups and decide not to repeat their offenses. Many will repeat, and many will get caught again. I advocate the same treatment for them, only more severe. Same with June Cleaver: if she is caught drinking and driving again she should be run back into jail and go through the process again.

Judges should not look at AA or any other recovery model as a landfill for drunks and junkies just to keep them out of jail. I do agree that it can compromise the safety and, yes, the recovery that certain people can experience within these programs. If judges insist on dumping offenders into meetings, I agree that there should be men-only and women-only meetings, and that they should be separated according to voluntary attendees as opposed to those who are sent by the courts.

Brett

Tue, 11/29/2011 - 00:18

Finally something we agree on, but lets go further, what about we also bin the bludges, slackers & unemployable in work-houses. The roomz will all but empty out, yeah.

Brett

marietta davis's picture

marietta davis

Mon, 12/05/2011 - 21:28

Did alcohol not take a toll on you, Brett?

marietta davis's picture

marietta davis

Tue, 12/06/2011 - 02:24

Brett,
There is a difference between being unemployable and being unemployed.

massive's picture

massive

Tue, 11/29/2011 - 23:17

live free and die- Yes I have a sink I will throw in as well. I agree 100%. I'm a working on the roadroad...
all the live long day :)

Massive

massive's picture

massive

Mon, 12/05/2011 - 21:18

live_free_or_die

It is refreshing to read your post. I have documented 2 file folders 2 inches deep with stories, tragic , one after another. Although some will not come forward there are a few in my life now that have done so.
I think that at the end of the day will we need a lawyer and a DR who was sentenced to AA. I have met a DR in SMart. He hated AA. They were all giving medical advice.

ANyway reading your post makes me feel sane. thanks. My hubby is busy deprogramming. Its sad to see how brainwashed we can be. I certainly was at one time.

Massive

massive's picture

massive

Fri, 11/25/2011 - 00:16

I don't care how decentralized AA is in their organization, if the executives are aware of the problem and take no action to protect these women (primarily) their collective ass is on the line.

That's right ! awesome post!

Massive

marietta davis's picture

marietta davis

Fri, 11/25/2011 - 00:19

No one's ass is on the line if the (primarily) women don't press charges.

istj04

Fri, 11/25/2011 - 16:56

In no way am I trying to "defend" AA's structure, but I do question how their national level "executives" can be held liable for what happens in any given local group, when the local groups are at the "top" of the "upside-down" AA food chain. Perhaps holding the local (county-level) "Intergroup" meeting members accountable would be a better tactic-since they are closer to the actual meetings where the abuse/exploitation is occurring? Seeing lawsuits filed against EACH individual AA "Intergroup" would be like the way specific Catholic dioceses are being sued.

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Fri, 11/25/2011 - 18:14

http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/smf-114_en.pdf

See items #6, #7 and #8. which basically says that the trustees are the legal, principal planners and administrators of overall policy.

In addition, from an operations standpoint, Corporate AA receives contributions from the various groups and members around the US and Canada. For what purpose? To support corporate HQ and further the good word of AA. Also, I don't think the groups are allowed to use Alcoholics Anonymous in their group names, are they? Its a damn service mark controlled at HQ.

So Bill W drew an upside down pyramid back in the day. BFD!

Turn that pyramid right side up and it looks just like any Fortune 500 company. You got your Board of Directors at the top, Corp HQ, operating subsidiaries, and hundreds of thousands of stockholders underneath it all. And who do the stockholders look to for answers?

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Fri, 11/25/2011 - 18:19

.

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

istj04

Fri, 11/25/2011 - 11:27

Is there a way to find out IF AA has any "liability insurance", and if so, how much, and who was dumb enough to insure them? Then the appropriate claims can be made by the actual victims (plus the borders of the civil attorneys getting involved!), that AAWS will have more then a bit of 'spraining" to do! Considering the Catholic Church is getting sued 5 days a week, I would love to see this happen to AAWS/GSO, etc.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Fri, 11/25/2011 - 12:01

The problem is that unlike the Catholic Church, it is not AA employees who are doing most of the abusing. The situation is more akin to a church that fails to do anything even though it knows some parishioners are committing crimes against other parishioners. I'm not sure what duty the Church would have to do anything. Likewise, I'm not sure what duty AA has to protect members from other members who are not AA employees.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

massive's picture

massive

Tue, 11/29/2011 - 23:21

anti denial from Natural Accountability Daytona posted it on its blog.

Massive

massive's picture

massive

Mon, 12/05/2011 - 21:21

Yes someone posted the insurance somewhere. I cant remember . Try www.nadaytona.org

But yes that is what happened in ALA TEEN, it got sued one meeting at a time.

Massive

Ironic's picture

Ironic

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 01:46

They definitely still (as of 3 months ago) say the serenity and/or third step prayers at the beginning and end of every meeting.

massive's picture

massive

Fri, 11/25/2011 - 00:17

Really ...what state? I was told they stopped all praying by a long time Board member.

Massive

Ironic's picture

Ironic

Fri, 11/25/2011 - 18:18

GCCNA of Florida, as well as the South Atlantic meetings on the east coast of SoFla.

DeConstructor's picture

DeConstructor

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 05:51

Coach Joe Paterno should be the example.

When these local groups are aware that predators are working in their ranks, protected by their conspiracy of silence, and actually having local members recruit fresh meat for them, they are all liable.

The faith's simple 'suggestion' of confidentiality, wrongly labeled as 'anonymity' will not be a valid excuse. The individual members of these groups need to be each personally sued for not speaking up when vulnerable newcomers are taken advantage of, as the sexual toys of the more senior members.

I personally would like to more of the very dangerous sects of the AA faith exposed, such as Midtown, and senior members who had full knowledge of what was happening having multi million dollar judgements against them in the most public manner possible.

massive's picture

massive

Fri, 11/25/2011 - 00:21

Decon- The faith's simple 'suggestion' of confidentiality, wrongly labeled as 'anonymity' will not be a valid excuse.

Yes yes this is very true. They have been getting away with it for so long that this really believe they are above the law.

I am doing my best to make sure that all aspects of the cult and crime are exposed completely and that AA at every level will be help accountable.

Massive

istj04

Fri, 11/25/2011 - 11:55

Paul Cox can tell you this one! He admitted in an AA group in 1994 (while "working" his 5th Step), that he sorta KILLED TWO DOCTORS in an alcohol-induced blackout. People from the AA meeting he made his confession at were subpoenaed to testify against him at his trial. Mr. Cox's first trial's verdict was a hung jury (featured on the 06/28/1994 episode of "20/20"). He was convicted in a second trial, and is doing 50 to Life in a New York prison-because what he "said in the room, did NOT STAY in the room"! Cox's defense was that he had some level of "confidentiality" at his AA meeting. The trial judge vetoed this defense, since there is ZERO "doctor-patient/counselor-client/attorney-client/clergyperson-parishoner" privilege.

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Fri, 11/25/2011 - 13:03

I was not aware of this case - here are some comments from an attorney and a priest that very disturbing.
http://law.jrank.org/pages/3610/Paul-Cox-Trials-1994-Confidantes-Testify...

"It doesn't seem right," one attorney noted. "It's like he's being punished for recovering." One priest who was also an AA member voiced a widespread concern when he noted that "once you make Alcoholics Anonymous people talk about one thing, what is to stop the authorities from deciding that they can come around for anything?" Another self-help member stated, "This just points out another middle-class hypocrisy—money buys privacy.… If you have the money, you can have the protection. A lot of people … can't afford a fancy shrink."

What? "Its like he's being punished for recovering". Unbelievable! Their mindset seems to be anything goes, even murder, as long as your in recovery?

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

massive's picture

massive

Mon, 12/05/2011 - 21:24

What? "Its like he's being punished for recovering". Unbelievable! Their mindset seems to be anything goes, even murder, as long as your in recovery?

That's right. Their arrogance level is unbelievable! I would not put anything past them. Not would I trust them. NOt all. I have some good friends. But the ones I dont for 30 years Forget ABout it!!!

Massive

marietta davis's picture

marietta davis

Mon, 12/05/2011 - 21:44

"What? 'Its like he's being punished for recovering'. Unbelievable! Their mindset seems to be anything goes, even murder, as long as your in recovery?"

First of all, I would guess that most murderers think that they're above the law. But no one knows what they are thinking unless they make a statement. I'm pretty sure that no murderer has made a statement directly to you about what s/he is thinking or feeling. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Now, did you really choose your words carefully here? Yours is the mindset that has conjured up the scenario that murder is kosher as long as the murderer is in recovery. Did you think about that before you wrote it? Aren't you also the same person who gets his/her inflammatory kicks by rabble rousing here? Actually, I find your arrogance unbelievable. You very nearly rip the crown from istj04. Color me aghast.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Mon, 12/05/2011 - 21:56

It's thoughts like you are showing that cause thing like this:

http://orange-papers.org/forum/node/509

"BALDWIN PARK - A $1 million arrest warrant has been issued for a Baldwin Park man accused of shooting a pregnant woman in the neck after getting into a fight with her husband at an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting last month, police said Monday."

PUT YOUR FANGS BACK IN YOUR PURSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

marietta davis's picture

marietta davis

Tue, 12/06/2011 - 03:15

With all this whining over the poor pregnant woman, I thought Martinez killed her. Come to find out even back on Nov. 17th she had been upgraded from critical to stable condition. This is an attempted murder, not a murder. So let's gather a little perspective here.

No, this asshole should not escape the penalty for this dreadful thing he has done to this woman and her family. He needs to be apprehended and go through the system. But you behave as if AA is the only place where shootings and stabbings and fleecings ever take place. It is just to bring all offenses to light, but to indict the whole of AA for the bad behaviors of some individuals is simply insupportable. If Martinez had followed his intended target and shot the pregnant woman at a Shell station down the block, would you give such a flaming shit about it?

I doubt it.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Mon, 12/05/2011 - 22:24

This is only the Tip of the iceberg. How far do you want me to go back? This is only a small part of what can be said in 2011 and the are many more coming to light everyday. The geographic distribution is all over the continental US and I haven't even touched Europe or Mexico. Do you really thing people that are barely at the age of majority should be sent to these dens of people recruited from jails and prisons?

http://orange-papers.org/forum/node/472

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

marietta davis's picture

marietta davis

Tue, 12/06/2011 - 03:16

How far do I want you to go back? Why not commandeer a huge chunk of history, say from the early human migrations, when Homo erectus first migrated out of Africa over the Levantine corridor and Horn of Africa to Eurasia about 1.8 million years ago, all the way up to the INNOCENT pregnant wife. That oughtta keep you busy.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Mon, 12/05/2011 - 22:34

The jig is up and the prospect hunting is being revealed!

http://nadaytona.org/2011/12/05/mandated-na-member-slits-throat-of-80-ye...

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

marietta davis's picture

marietta davis

Mon, 12/05/2011 - 22:51

This woman was not murdered at or near a meeting. Again, she was killed by someone who was ordered by the court to attend NA, which I strictly oppose.

This guy and his female partner were career criminals. "Alan Wood had attacked [a] woman he met at a Narcotics Anonymous meeting . . . In 1989, he attempted to rape a woman he’d met in Narcotics Anonymous. It was their second date, and after dinner and drinks, the woman asked to be taken home." In case you have misplaced your abacus, that was 22 years ago. After you read this article, does he seem to you like a guy who has been attending NA for 22 years? There's something you can sniff out: whether or not he was in NA at the time of the murder. In my opinion, if he was not, and I strongly suspect he was not, then your point is moot. This was a random killing by a thoroughly evil individual, but it had nothing to do with the program of NA.

Find me a non-court-ordered 12-step attendee - someone who voluntarily goes to, or went to, 12-step meetings, who murdered or attempted to murder someone. I'm really interested to see what the ratio is between mandates and non-mandates when it comes to violent crimes committed. Got a number on that, Rocketman?

AntiDenial

Tue, 12/06/2011 - 17:07

Many people are injured by AA members that are away from the actual meeting ! People in AA/NA are encouraged to give complete strangers their phone numbers and even pick them up at their home so they can go to a meeting. There are many clean AA members with 22 years clean that are sexually abusing, financially scamming members among other horrid crimes.Many crimes are committed by non-mandated members. BUT-the mandated ones add just another dimension to the level of danger to going to AA meetings. You seem to take the opinion that unless someone is a good little AA attendee for 20 years,they are not considered a member. The whole point is,that once they are mandated they indeed become part of the demographic of AA meetings whether members like it or not. Now that AA/NA meetings are made up of a large % of court mandated members,there you have the makeup of the groups.It has changed AA over the years,and many members leave because of it.

So the time and energy one has put into being a member does not matter.These are the people many vulnerable people will meet at meetings and thus at a minimum should be forewarned so they can make an informed choice. Thanks Massive for all of your hard work.You are making a difference!

Criminals In Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous
www.nadaytona.org

massive's picture

massive

Mon, 12/05/2011 - 22:46

WOW how cold hearted of you . Are you still in AA? MD says With all this whining over the poor pregnant woman, I thought Martinez killed her. Come to find out even back on Nov. 17th she had been upgraded from critical to stable condition. This is an attempted murder, not a murder. So let's gather a little perspective here.

WHat kind of perspective should JR Harris get marietta davis?

Are you kidding me ....you are not sorry she was shot? You are making an excuse that she was not Murdered she was 'JUST SHOT and LOST HER BABY" ! WTF.,....are you kidding me. Are you for real. I have avoided your posts but this one takes the cake. How icy cold scary is this post of yours.

Massive

marietta davis's picture

marietta davis

Mon, 12/05/2011 - 23:20

massive, you keep reading these links junior puts up. He is making a vain attempt to connect all evil in the universe to the 12 steps. I debunk them as I go. If I feel he has made a salient point I will concede. That has yet to happen.

I have already expressed dismay over this shooting and of this woman's loss of her fetus - not baby. "Police have learned the woman was several weeks into a pregnancy at the time she was shot, and has since miscarried." Consider this: "It is estimated that about 15 to 20% of known pregnancies will end in miscarriage. This statistic is often received with surprise and shock, equally because of its high prevalence as well as how little it is acknowledged and talked about openly. While a miscarriage can happen at any time during the first 20 weeks of pregnancy, they more commonly occur around the times the woman's subsequent periods would have been due." It is thought that up to 50% of all fertilized eggs do not survive. You don't know if this woman had a molar pregnancy or a blighted ovum or what caused her miscarriage. Some women are frequent miscarriers. For more information, check out the various types of miscarriage and discover how little you know about it. But I'm sure you'd like to blame her miscarriage on NA. It's a convenient target.

http://www.birth.com.au/Pregnancy/Pregnancy-difficulties/Miscarriage/Typ...

I know. I've been through it twice and nearly lost the third pregnancy. Unless I understand what happened I am not going to automatically dole out the hankies and start novenas. The press has a way of dramatizing events; junior here takes it several steps further.

I'm not cold-hearted. I'm practical. I wait for all the facts. I want to know that they actually are facts. You ask what kind of perspective JR Harris should get. I think he, too, should wait for the facts. He's very quick to pull the trigger on indictments when he cannot possibly know what actually happened. We may never know the entire story on this shooting. But JR Harris is the type of person who should live in Texas, the state with the highest execution rate in the nation. He could probably run for office there and win. I lived there for 27 years and I got a gut full of those pontificating assholes who would shoot the juice into the veins of a convicted offender without granting DNA testing that might exonerate him. There's a place for you there, JR. I recommend Huntsville.

If you had not avoided reading my posts, massive, you would have seen that I expressed my sadness over these events. So you see? You get caught up in the flames, too. Be careful. Think for yourself.

massive's picture

massive

Mon, 12/05/2011 - 23:33

No I have read your posts and passed on them. But I could not on this one. Regardless of how "pregnant she was she was shot at an AA meeting by a guy who was court ordered there. Not Johnny or littlle Bobby who wanted to get sober in 1975. A F****KING violent guy who does not Belong in an AA meeting where they will tell him he can not get angry , that's not allowed in AA, and the fact there are no professional leaders there either. Just the Blind leading the blind in a way that there is such severe cover up that I predict there will be a huge mass lawsuits eventually addressing the sexual predation in AA and the violence.

I did read your posts and I did not see any expression of any saddness or any feeling of empathy at all. All I saw were you talking about you when I was talking about a woman who was shot. See IM not in AA anymore so I don't bring up " Me" every chance I get. Im not that self absorbed. As by reading your last post it seems you are caught up in judging JR and talking again about yourself instead of this poor woman who was shot. Nuff said. SHe was shot, not snuffed, not snubbed, shot in the head.

Massive

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