Hey! I LOVE the Orange Papers....

You have, indeed, found the center of Nirvana. Glad to have you here. ;-)

And have a good day. Tomorrow, too.

i bawled when i first began to read the orange papers..
here was confirmation of what i had always known,
i am so much happier since i freed my mind from those mis -truths,
the forum is starting to gain momentum too
well done orange
i make no secret of the fact that i still drink,yet my happiness and fullness of life is greatly enriched through participation here.
thanks..

This looks like the land of the free to me! I'll call AA in the UK if my car breaks down.

Marietta has already made more posts on here than she has made on the a-SS site since 2007 (I know how to find the numbers...lol). The word is getting out.

I agree with all here, when I found the orange papers it enforced my & my crew\'s, a few friends from the program, we all joined @ the same time, doubts & critical thinking regarding the \"program\" & it\'s philosophies & practices. So many of the things we had questioned & noticed, but were told over & over we were the problem, not the contradictions, not the quack medical & psycho babble advise. It is scary & true what brain washing does to a person & it does take a long time to heal & it does leave scars. It is such a violation when one in the disguise of a \"friend\" & \"fellow\" thinks it\'s perfectly okay, that they have the right & are entitled to rape your mind, soul & being. Self righteousness is dangerous! Looking back & reflecting, yuck, yuck, yuck, I realize they were only able to do it to me due to my vulnerabilities. Oppressing the desire to control & rape any one\'s mind is pure evil & is the epitome of selfishness. God, I am so glad it is over for me & others & for future ex steppers.

I was very sick & hurt, I needed some help & support, most of all I needed somone to be straight with me, thats a far cry from what found.

yeah finding someone to be straight with you @ a faith healing group created by some real crooked guys was not going to happen!

I know actually from jump street, my first few meetings, I thought it was really bizarre that a person would say very painful stuff & no one would comment, just clap & say thanks for sharing. Also a person would say some really off the wall stuff, discussing violence, really bad stuff & no one would say any thing, just all clap & say thanks for sharing. i would be sitting there, thinking isn\'t any one going to call or cop or say something, like you seriously need help that we are not qualified to give you here. Then there was a fat girl parade, lonely, lonely women looking for a troubled guy who would accept & love them, that used to bum me out. What I didn\'t get from the beginning was why no one would say anything that may help someone in pain. Then the whining, crying about every day problems & them trying to get every body in their life in some kind of AA meeting, telling their whole families, including their children that they were diseased, cause Mommy is a drunk. And the absolute worst was how the Mom\'s would complain about their children\'s needs, interfering with Mommy\'s AA agenda. My only child is dead, I would have loved, loved to have a child who needed me & my time. It was so difficult to listen to those whining women & I wondered how is this going to keep me from drinking. The absolute worst was though, how they wouldn\'t listen & would respond to my pain & problems with one of those inane sayings. They keep telling me I was sicker than I ever was, I was just a drunk & I drank a lot to numb pain. I wasn\'t diseased or mentally ill. I felt like I was talking to a wall all the time & no matter how often I would point out a contradiction to any one, my crazy sponser, or any one, they would twist it into being my problem. They were so evil, so selfish, so self indulgent. I used to wonder when, when is this old timer, guest speaker going to shut up. Their speaking seemed self indulgent, it wasn\'t about helping any one, it was about them liking the sounds of their own voices. Every once in a while I would meet someone who seemed semi healthy, kind of normal they just focused on staying sober & were positive. They did not spout & parrot the inane sayings. But then I wouldn\'t see that person again, I realize now they had regained their sanity & were rolling. I realized I was interacting with a group of not very bright or intelligent people who wanted to control my mind & being, who kept telling me I was wrong, was going to fail, they nagged me relentlessly, I never in my life had been around such relentless & self righteous nags. The hypocrisy, one member would correct me when I cursed & say cursing is negative, he would predict doom & gloom, he would tell me the sky was falling in, my entire life was going to crash & burn, my \"recovery\", doomed, cause cursing is negative, cause he said so. Then @ a later time I would hear him curse, I asked him wasn\'t he concerned about his cursing, he explained his cursing was different! Oh, that guy tortured me & others with his endless nagging, it was relentless, he had a few of us he zeroed in on. Of course in his mind he was \"helping\" us, he was so crazy he used to explain he had off the chart\'s intelligence & we should listen to him for that reason also. He was just a crazy & insecure control freak & you guessed it a construction worker & he felt educated due to attending one year @ a Community College. He was the reason, my friends & i rolled, his contradictions were crazy & constant! of course he was a very respected member of the cult! he would become enraged if we questioned any doctrine, or suggestion. Towards the end we started to do it just to mess with him, he had it coming! I really wish AA would go far, far away & never, ever come back!

Hello Teatotaler,
Thanks for the compliments. I\'m glad to hear that you benefitted from my scribblings.
Have a good day now.
== Orange

PATTI SAYS; to those whining women
there was a fat girl parade,
lonely women looking for a troubled guy
They were so evil, so selfish, so self indulgent.
I used to wonder when, when is this old timer, guest speaker going to shut up
Every once in a while I would meet someone who seemed semi healthy,
interacting with a group of not very bright or intelligent people who wanted to control my mind & being
Oh, that guy tortured me & others with his endless nagging, it was relentless, he had a few of us he zeroed in on
He was just a crazy & insecure control freak & you guessed it a construction worker & he felt educated due to attending one year @ a Community College.
JJ says;Ha Ha talk about a total nutjob! Look at how judgemental this bitch is. LMAO talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

what you folks define as judgmental is actually critical thinking, it is healthy to identify, acknowledge & communicate about one\'s anti social behavior. one trying to control any one\'s mind, thoughts & feelings is anti social. it is healthy to acknowledge the unhealthy behavior & actions of another, it is healthy to communicate said unhealthy & anti social behavior of an individual or a group. any Doctor, Psychologist, Psychiatrist, Therapist, etc. will acknowledge that it is healthy to be aware of & communicate & reject anti social behavior or an individual or a group. My communicating said anti social behavior\'s is recommended by qualified, educated, licensed & practicing medical professionals. That it isn\'t okay with you or other member\'s of your group, is irrelevant & okay, doesn\'t matter to any one what any of you think. It matter\'s to you & the member\'s of your group, but once you are outside of your weird little world & group, others do not share, participate or acknowledge your words, suggestions, theories or practices. It\'s perfectly acceptable & also healthy in every aspect to call a spade a spade, also known as the truth. That you & members of your group make the choice to not interact with the truth, personally & collectively is a personal choice, it is unhealthy & anti social & 97 % of the people who encounter your group chose not to participate or chose to flee. That is just the truth & although you all hypocritically evaluate your selves & the group as rigorously honest, you are not calling a spade a spade, you live a life lacking in self awareness, participate in a group lacking in self awareness. Self awareness is the foundation of intelligence. If you can\'t truthfully acknowledge your being & your group\'s being, how can you possibly be qualified to truthfully acknowledge any one or any thing else. Health, begins with self. Truth begins with self. Healing begins with self. None of those things can happen in a group that does not live or practice truth. Member heal thy self.

Two very detailed posts, Patti. Thanks for taking the time to write them. I agree completely, the majority of steppers are clueless when it comes to self-awareness. And the fat girl parade is classic!
I was sitting next to a fat, lazy, unemployable, stepper guru at a meeting once. She sat there smoking cigarettes and drinking coffee as she gave her AA speech, claiming the 12 steps work with all addictions.
I guess she meant all of them except eating, fucking, smoking and coffee.
I put up with this degenerate hypocricy year after year, until the truth could no longer be suppressed. This is all a bunch of self-delusional, hypocritical bullshit.
Thank you for sharing, keep telling the truth, and sorry to read about your lost child.
God Bless.

Patti says;It\\\'s perfectly acceptable & also healthy in every aspect to call a spade a spade,
JJ says; Thats exactly what I did when I replied to your Assnine post.
JJ says; first of all Patti, Im not pro-AA I just call a spade a spade when I spot it!
Patti says; also known as the truth. That you & members of your group make the choice to not interact with the truth, personally & collectively is a personal choice, it is unhealthy & anti social & 97 % of the people who encounter your group chose not to participate or chose to flee.
JJ says; YOU ARE FULL OF SHIT and I thought orange said 95% leave before 1 year! NOW PATTI SAYS 97% thats a lie. So if you lie about that what else do you lie about to make yourself feel right?
MSfranny says;I was sitting next to a fat, lazy, unemployable, stepper guru at a meeting ONCE
JJ askes: Does that mean that all overweight women in AA fit that bill? After all you said ONCE, shit dude once in 20 years isnt that bad! Correct? And dont forget you were a self delusional hypocrite yourself, correct? but now your not, you are now better than all those others. Sound about right PX_90 BOY!! lol

Sat next to all kinds of trash many times, but that was only one example.
And actually, I\\\'m much more into cardio than weights. I prefer the Insanity workout and beach volleyball.

Strange?!

The above post title has changed?! Does Agent orange do this when he deems inappropriate language has been used?

Or can you edit your own posts?

I\'m still learning.

aaah....now I see the little \'edit tab! You can edit your own posts!

Orange didn\'t say 95% of people who come to AA leave within a year. AA said it.

Ms Franny I said Px 90 boy to GET UR ATTN. Your not understanding me. let me ask you this; How can you say that its funny to make fun of fat people in AA. Yes there are plenty who are overweight and sloths who are looked up to in AA because they have time, but there are a lot of good people in AA also ,dont you agree? If everybody in AA was feeling that something was wrong and they read thew OP dont you think they would come to their senses also? Like you did and i did? Shit dude when I looked up Fuck AA 4 years ago and found the Op< I made copies of many pages to leave by the literature table at a very high strung mtg. I never did this and over time I have became less angry at the program and started to have compassion for members still there. It took time though and I never lied to fit my anti AA agenda better. im sorry I called you PX-90 boy because I know that it is a good cardio- strength building progaram and I am also a cardio freak, I started changing my old body building program in the late 1990\'s when I took up mma. Today i still run and do weights and plyometric routine. I also ran a mile this morning in 645 min which is the best i have donein a long time. Im 44 years old, and I think thats not too shabby for an old druggie/ alky. Please try to be fair and balanced because i think you have a lot too say on this forum.

We can both agree that deception is not an acceptable method to educate folks what AA really is.
My problem is not with the people in AA, it is with the \"program\", including the 12 Steps and the literature. It is the program and its teachings that creates the recovery \"structure\" that makes all this madness possible and gives whackjobs the platform they need for whatever agenda the might have. Actually, I really like the AA Preamble very much and wish this was available as a recovery community. It would create a safer environment for friendship and support if people were then encouraged to seek religion, spirituality, therapy, medication and other needs in the appropriate venues. People should be encouraged to move on with their lives, longtimers in the community should be frowned upon as people unable to succeed in the \"real world\". This would eliminate much of the insanity. And most important, people can choose what they want to do with their newly regained lives, without \"meetings\", \"gurus\" or \"wisdom\" as to what recovery is and what dry is.
Much of what Patti wrote was accurate, which is why I wanted to comment on her post. What I wrote about the fat guru was also accurate. I never said it was funny to make fun of fat people, that was not the intent of my post. Actually, it was the comments by Patti about the fat girls and the hypocricy that reminded me of the incident I posted. It was an example, nothing more. I could choose endless examples at a whim.
There are plenty of fine folks in AA, including my wife. I shoot pool with a couple AA friends, go hiking and go out for dinner. I do not talk about AA to these people other than my wife. I do not wish to do battle with these people, which is why I do not go to meetings. I came to this forum to find like-minded people to share these negative recovery experiences.
I will battle the trolls here (there are only a couple) because this is a Forum for Anti-AA people and this is OUR HOUSE. If you are not a troll, then show some support for friends like Patti who have had horrible AA experiences and need to know it is the program that is the problem and not them.

That they feel they have a right to be here, but we don\'t have the right to troll e-AA or their precious meetings.