seems everybody here argues with one another, but I see no solution,,,,,it's Like everybody loves living in 'the problem'....where's the 'solution', if you propose, as you say to be an 'AA alternative'
Do you need someone to tell you how to live?
Do you need someone to tell you what to do?
Do you need someone to tell you how to be happy?
Then you need a "program". Or shall we call it "treatment" since we are dealing with a spiritual disease.
There is no AA alternative, there is no program. There is only choosing not to drink and choosing to do other things with your life.
When you are out there in the real world clean and sober, and you are happy and having fun. If you can be part of something, if you can love and be loved. If you can find joy and relief in something other than drinking or drugging....
.....then you have found your AA alternative. then you have found your "program".
Till then you can argue here on the Orange Forum.
Make new friends and find new interests to break the addiction/cult religion cycle.
I know of no other way.
"If you can be part of something, if you can love and be loved. If you can find joy and relief in something other than drinking or drugging....
.....then you have found your AA alternative. then you have found your "program"
you don't sound to 'loving' to me, or lovable. You sound like an arrogant ass......but that makes lots of men happy. As Warren Zevon said, "poor, poor pitiful me".
Instead of drinking I enjoy:
Cooking,Hiking ,Beach Volleyball,Racquetball,Movies,NFL Football,Gardening,Swimming.
Or I can sit around meetings and analyze my defects and disease so i will be happy, joyous and free.
aren't you too busy Cooking,Hiking ,Beach Volleyball,Racquetball,Movies,NFL Football,Gardening,Swimming. to bother with the response needed here? Take of the sunglasses pal...who are you anyway?
Here's more of that either/or shit: drink or go hiking. Sit around meetings and analyze character defects or go swimming. Refuse to drink ever again or go to AA for the rest of your life.
Are you for real? Is it accurate to say that you will not entertain the idea that one might stop drinking and afterward have a need or desire to address the harm done by drinking? Do we owe no one anything, even if we've ripped their lives up with our drinking and drunken behavior? Did you just stop drinking and pick up your life as if nothing had ever happened, as if you weren't a total flaming asshole for the entire time you were drunk? If so, you have a boatload of unfinished business to take care of. That or else you're biking and cooking and gardening and swimming and playing football all by yourself.
What makes you suggest that he was a total flaming asshole the entire time he was drunk? I doubt that was the case. Indeed, isn't that itself an example of all or nothing, either/or thinking?
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
Take the booze out of the asshole and you still have the asshole. He has been nothing but a flaming asshole to me in every single exchange here.
This is what makes me suggest it, suspect it, conclude it: my experience with msafrany tells me so. You disagree? Well, then, has he agreed with you on a topic or two? Has he pulled his punches with you? Mm hm. Then you would think he's a pretty okay guy. I do not. This is not either/or thinking. He is uniformly ugly to me. I respond in kind. It's not like there was a choice somewhere along the line. (Please, no Gandhiisms here. Thanks.)
Well, most of 12 stepping (except for praying and recruiting others) involves focusing on how we are fundamentally fucked up people. What I got from his post is that that might not be the best way to live. Every damn meeting the topic is something like powerlessness, defects, making amends, taking inventory, blah blah blah. NEVER, NOT ONCE, have I been to a meeting where the topic has been something like "activities to enjoy sober" or "not dwelling on the past." I think that is telling.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
"We will not regret the past nor wish to shut the door on it." ~ Alcoholics Anonymous, p. 83. This suggests a neutral stance, not a pathological one.
AA did not suggest to me "activities to enjoy sober", nor do I believe that's the purpose of the program. I went there to learn how to live a decent life without booze, not how to ride a Harley or play the piano.
Doesn't enjoying sober activities and learning how to live a decent life without booze sort of go hand in hand? I mean, it seems pretty straightforward that a lot of people are not going to stay sober for long if they don't have sober activities that they enjoy.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
No, they do not. If sober means without any intoxicant in the bloodstream and nothing more, then additional effort may be called for to learn how to live effectively. I've been sober a long time and there are still things that most people would consider enjoyable that I will not engage in. I have no money, I'm not an outdoor person, I have to be dragged outside to ride my bike. I do it. I make myself do it. But I do not enjoy it.
So happy for most of you who have settled back into what might be considered a balanced life. I have not. My employment opportunities come along once or twice every year, and I don't really enjoy that either - it's a black hole that sucks the life out of me for many months at a stretch, and it does not involve income until the very end, which is a gamble because it involves art.
I have been treated for mental illness for 22 years. This condition precludes "enjoying sober activities". Treatment can be considered fairly successful because I'm alive. You, Pennywise, are talking about the majority of people. I do not believe the minority is all that small and insignificant. Lots of people have additional work to do after stopping drinking or using. And then, of course, there are those really deserving and iconic "alcoholics" who are absolutely golden the very second they move away from their drug of choice. Why, there are some on this very forum.
The fucking sucks about your situation. I really hope things turn around soon for you.
Second,
I know it is a struggle to enjoy sober activities. For a long time, alcohol was my main source of pleasure. I associate so many activities with drinking that it can be hard. Going to the beach, camping, hiking, doing stuff with friends, picnics, going for drives, all of those activities can trigger cravings. Personally, I need to re-learn how to enjoy some of those things sober. It is NOT easy for me. Indeed, for me, it is the hardest part about staying sober. I get no help with that whatsoever at the AA meetings I have to sit through. Discussing my character defects day in and day out just does not help with these cravings. I hope you understand that I am in no way trying to say this thing is easy.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
you're probably a sick person with a job. That's America these days. I probably worked with someone like you. Were you one of the many hacking it up & spitting on the sidewalk?
You can't make that call without having known me before I sobered up. If you had the one to compare to the other you would probably retract your statement.
We have another Troll. Welcome to the party Shadow.
Btw, lmao means laughing my ass off.
Btw means by the way.
Hey Shadow, why don't you let Marietta crash on your couch, and in return she can teach you how to live?
LMAO!!!!
EXCUSE ME?!? What the flying fuck did you just say? I don't think so. Ripped up their lives with OUR behavior? Did not enough of this kind of shaming and guilting go on in the treatment centers and meetings we've attended/been forced to attend? Yeah, I think it has. Certainly in my case. I've been accused of the crimes of someone else's SISTER based solely on the grounds that the accuser claimed "all addicts are the same", and I'm sure everyone else here has had guilt force-fed to them by gangs of stepping thugs, and it isn't acceptable, never again. NEVER AGAIN.
How dare you come here and pull that same garbage when people here are doing their best to GET AWAY from that damaging kind of thinking! What right do YOU have, what kind of moral arbiter are you exactly, aside from the very same set of drones who truly make xA such a horrible experience? No one has the right to call people on things they might never have done, especially based on some half-baked assumption that "all addicts and alcoholics do that". You keep crying out accusations of bigotry left & right here, how about this worst bigotry of all, creating a stereotype based on a fake disease and telling the whole world that those labeled with this mythical disease must live in a constant and eternal state of groveling just because we might have "done something to hurt someone"?
You need a serious getaway. A GET AWAY. Go atone somewhere else for how awful you think you were when you used/drank and leave people here the hell alone, already. (or as I said before, maybe it's good you're here and not abusing some newcomers somewhere, at least we can handle your sorry ass) But don't think that I (for one, and sorry, I know you can take care of yourself with Marietta....) will just sit here and not speak up. I hope your goal was to inspire me to greater activism, because it is working.
I couldn't even read this all the way through before I had to offer you an apology, Jesus, Son of God! I didn't realize I was directing my comments to someone without sin, someone who never did anybody wrong ever and will continue to live that pristine and divine life until s/he drops dead.
Have I said addiction is a disease? Have I said alcoholism is a disease? Why, you're accusing me of something I've never done! That makes you a fucking hypocrite. What right do I have? Same as anyone here, no greater, no less. You don't like what I write? Then don't read it. You want to live in a fucking bubble where no one holds you accountable for anything you may have done in your life that hurt someone? Great. I will stand outside the bubble and make sure you can't get out.
What is permissible for you is permissible for me.
No, you will not. In the real world, this is called stalking. I've met al/nar anons with this attitude, the idea that they should be the one to rat someone out everywhere they go because they once used drugs. Or drank. Etc. The concept itself really pisses me off, when applied to people who've never committed a criminal act, such as people who've been in xA. You do have the right to comment on a forum, but not to cyberstalk people. You can say, "Fine don't read it" if you like, but you just contradicted that by the end of your comment when you said you'd "stand outside.....and make sure (I) can't get out". That is something you don't have the right, morally or legally, to do.
But thanks for inspiring a few more blog posts.....
Well, thank you for that good and great advice, Racehorse Haynes. You have no say over my moral conduct, and I have not broken any laws, so ... back to the ol' drawing board, hoss.
You think that's what I'm doing here, "ratting out people who have ever used drugs", or whatever that silly shit was? I'm ever so disappointed that I haven't quite got my point across. Guess I'll have to post more and louder and more offensively so you can gather my meaning, yes?
No, I think you're the old hag mother from the 1993 film, "The Ref". The one who ends up tied up by her entire family for being cruelly annoying. You think I'm bothered by your condescension when you say "that silly shit" referring to comments you don't even understand? No. OK, don't make a big point about how you'll be there outside of our bubbles forever to remind us we've all "caused hurt" or whatever you said, don't tell other commenters that they shouldn't be going about their happy lives because--again--you think they did harm in the world and I won't fucking call you on saying those exact things. Fine, be offensive. Take it up a notch. All the better. We need an example we can cut and paste. You are a useful idiot in this case, glad you realize that bit.
Didn't see "The Ref" so your image means nothing to me. I didn't threaten to be outside anyone's bubble but yours, so no need to defend anyone else. But even if I should walk away from it and leave it untended, I have doubts that you would ever really get out of it. After all, you're the one in exile.
Get out of not being analyzed endlessly by steppers? No, I'm out of it, thanks, appreciate the concern. Those people were really harmful to my life. I cut them out. Glad you care. If you want to talk mythology and how I relate it to having to live in a place with cold weather, I am here often. Thanks again for the concern. And for admitting you "threatened" something....lol.
No, I guess you didn't read msafrany's post about how seeking help isn't verboten here. I was referring to psychotherapy, not to being "analyzed endlessly be steppers".
Fuck mythology and weather. Do you want to honestly engage here or not?
There is no solution here. This forum is about people who feel they were victimized by Alcoholics Anonymous or Narcotics Anonymous and now they are out to vilify all 12-Step programs. Here you will read posts by people who contend that they're smarter than most any "recovery program", that they are better off just not drinking and shooting up dope ... until the next time they drink or shoot up dope. As a forum it is lenient with regard to language and topics permitted, and yet it is strangely battened down and hermetically sealed when it comes to alternative opinions. The most you will ever see in acceptance of anything 12-Step-related is a begrudging acknowledgement that AA maybe might have helped a few people once in its history. The rest is recounting 12-Step history - the good, the bad and the ugly, minus the good - mostly under a microscope with flaws and inclusions which appear in the form of rancorous opinion.
Some information to be found here is fact, but fact takes a back seat to pontificating judgment. You may be well advised to take cover when attempting to create a bridge between the non-program program people and those who have benefitted from 12-Step treatment. The non-program program people absolutely will not tolerate any suggestion that the steps can help anyone. They draw a quick line between first walking through the doors of AA to instantly becoming a zombie, a moron, a cult member, someone who cannot think for himself. The npp people cannot or will not conceive of any different sort of 12-Step experience. "Recruits" show up, they have their lobotomies, and then they try to pray away the troubles of the world.
Do not let it discourage you. Just be prepared for ugliness because, for most of the tenants on this forum, this all they have. No one will be surprised to see you go if you choose to. The only thing they are looking for is someone to validate or ratify their arrogant, myopic viewpoints.
I will agree the 12 step program had never seemed to address my underlying issue of PTSD = I doubt they ever could....it's just just not " in the program' - = many people with /mental health issues (and who in AA have none) never get to the source of their problem. I don't think people are just ;alcoholics;....there;s always a reason underlying their drinking. Unfortunately the 12 steps never get to that point = they're always too busy 'blaming' the drinker.......3 words that must leave any sort of valid recovery are " shame, blame, guilt. In 26 years, I've never felt the steps go very deep (look into Buddhist theory for that) Fortunately, I've found a one-on-one PTSD counselor that may help me get to the heart of the matter. By they way,,,,I also tried swimming,etc - -- but there's a saying :"The body remembers,,,we can trick it with exercise, medication,,but one day it will present it's bill." For me, ;pime has come today{
For five years, from 1984 through 1989, I was in weekly therapy with a PhD psychologist named Rosemary. She told me about a patient she once had, a middle aged man, who was having great difficulty with personal issues and was extremely distraught about it. When he was a teenager he was raped in his high school locker room. It was a room that was cleaned every day by the maintenance crew with Pine Sol. The boy never told anyone about the incident. One day this man had a breakthrough in therapy, when he reached a critical moment including graphic memories and a compelling need to be free of the assault. As he began to relate the details to Rosemary, his body began to exude the odor of Pine Sol. Yes, the body remembers.
I applaud you for searching for and enlisting the help of a PTSD counselor who is willing to work with you to resolve whatever is troubling you. I experienced repeated sexual assault and molestation as a child and it is no easy task to get a grip on the demon and defuse it. Continue to search for solutions that work for you, and don't forget to notice the goodness of this world along the way. Remember that scar tissue is tougher than skin; it serves a purpose, but that purpose is not to keep sorrow in or keep deliverance out.
You sure have made a case for the 12 steps. Sounds like you have worked through all your issues and are now happy, joyous and free.
It's like I just need to wrap you in a blanket with some hot coffee and give you a hug :-)
she never referred to the 12 steps in her compassionate reply to ME ( how you fit in this questionable at best) - no one needed of benefited from your stupid comments - I doubt if either Marietta or I would take either a hug (yuck), a warm blanket or a hot cup of coffee from the likes of you. You're like most men I despise for their phoniness.....want a cup of tea & chat???? Ha!
You and Marietta have found each other.
Enjoy a life of endless self examination of your boring diseases.
Where do i fit in the conversation? Here is the order of events, please verify above.
1) You posted a topic.
2) I thought I gave you a clear and sincere answer without wanting to rape you.
3) Marietta bashes the fuck out of me and my statements in "what about the folks you screwed".
4) I am now responding to HER.
5) For some reason I am now phoney and an ass because I have a DICK.
6) Below Marietta goes psycho and calls me uncaring after she rips me and my original post without provocation.
Did I miss anything?
OK, I'll admit it, sometimes my entire "program" for living happily is to just laugh my ass off over comments like that one. Frany, every single point is just keeping me laughing. "because I have a DICK". Well, you summed up this thread. And a few others.
It really is, as far as any "program" is concerned, about no longer viewing yourself as diseased. Or out of control. Not giving into self-fulfilling prophecy thinking. Once you shed that trap of a way of thinking, change your way of thinking, etc. it kind of falls into place. Do things you love. Hell, for me almost everything involves my alone time. In "recovery" I wasn't really allowed much alone time, and what I was was something I was told to feel guilty about unless it was meditation (helping my "sobriety"), reading the Big Book or Basic Text, doing step work, etc. OK, not everyone in xA can really be that boring, even I can't accept that, but honestly, once I realized I was in control (and not desiring to or ever going to use anything again like I had) I was great again. My injuries had healed, physical and emotional, and I didn't want to be someone "with problems" anymore, which included being viewed as an addict. So I made the change. Keep making the change. I don't have anything to do with people who are judgmental like that. Who want to analyze every bit of my personality and nitpick. But then, most people don't like associating with people who act like that to a negative degree. It's an auto-pilot sort of thing for me. When I was down I thought it wouldn't ever be this way, but well, there it is.
It really is a state of mind. Practicing the 'principles' of the 12 steps becomes a mental trap, a mindset. Thats why you hear people decades sober proudly declare at meetings that another 4th step has revealed yet another defect of cbaracter on which they can now work on. And the group nods with approval how the oldtimer still acknowledges the need to 'work the program'. The oldtimer feels like they still belong.
Funny, I can't remember where I saw this on tv, just a character returning to others with the explanation that "that much self-reflection really isn't healthy". The same thought I'd had constantly with xA.
Of course 12 Step people can relapse. Why do you try to stuff deliberately fictitious words in people's mouths? I for one have never have said people who use the 12 Steps don't relapse. Many do, and I've been there when they have come back from the edge. I have never denied this.
How did you get to be such a caustic, uncaring, malicious son of a bitch? What man would be proud to call you his friend? What woman would cheapen herself to take you on?
Keep hiking and swimming and cooking, frany, round the clock until you drop. It'll distract you from the main event, maybe indefinitely. Maybe your dream will come true and you can die without ever having to know yourself.
dogs are smarter than that, stop cheapening their value with your ridiculous comment at the end of every one of your 'statements;, haven't you been arrested yet with you stupid 'philosophy.' Would you actually pee on a dog? What a foolish thing to say
All this time I thought btnben was talking about handling stressful situations as a dog would handle them, i.e. the Dog would piss on the Situation.
Now I find out the DOG gets pissed on. That's outrageous! Who would piss on a cute* little dog, indeed?
If I ever run into btnben (Bristol, is it?) I'll give him a pissing he'll never likely bloody forget! And a nasty ankle bite to boot.
*You gotta admit, I am cute.
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean someone isn't out to get you.
are all, or just a select few of you men ( and it's painfully obvious you are men) are totally obtuse? Some brains, some decent verbiage might help you get a point across. Until then, you all sound idiotic, pointless and comically dramatic. (Ps, you're note a bit cute)
msafrany
Mon, 10/24/2011 - 20:16
Permalink
No Program
Do you need someone to tell you how to live?
Do you need someone to tell you what to do?
Do you need someone to tell you how to be happy?
Then you need a "program". Or shall we call it "treatment" since we are dealing with a spiritual disease.
There is no AA alternative, there is no program. There is only choosing not to drink and choosing to do other things with your life.
When you are out there in the real world clean and sober, and you are happy and having fun. If you can be part of something, if you can love and be loved. If you can find joy and relief in something other than drinking or drugging....
.....then you have found your AA alternative. then you have found your "program".
Till then you can argue here on the Orange Forum.
Make new friends and find new interests to break the addiction/cult religion cycle.
I know of no other way.
shadow
Tue, 10/25/2011 - 13:53
Permalink
program? Ha
"If you can be part of something, if you can love and be loved. If you can find joy and relief in something other than drinking or drugging....
.....then you have found your AA alternative. then you have found your "program"
you don't sound to 'loving' to me, or lovable. You sound like an arrogant ass......but that makes lots of men happy. As Warren Zevon said, "poor, poor pitiful me".
Shadow
avogadno
Mon, 10/24/2011 - 20:18
Permalink
Only some
Only a few seem to need to.....and they cause a big ruckus. frick 'em
Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/
msafrany
Mon, 10/24/2011 - 20:21
Permalink
For Example
Instead of drinking I enjoy:
Cooking,Hiking ,Beach Volleyball,Racquetball,Movies,NFL Football,Gardening,Swimming.
Or I can sit around meetings and analyze my defects and disease so i will be happy, joyous and free.
shadow
Wed, 10/26/2011 - 19:12
Permalink
then why respond>
aren't you too busy Cooking,Hiking ,Beach Volleyball,Racquetball,Movies,NFL Football,Gardening,Swimming. to bother with the response needed here? Take of the sunglasses pal...who are you anyway?
Shadow
marietta davis
Mon, 10/24/2011 - 21:17
Permalink
What about the folks you screwed?
Here's more of that either/or shit: drink or go hiking. Sit around meetings and analyze character defects or go swimming. Refuse to drink ever again or go to AA for the rest of your life.
Are you for real? Is it accurate to say that you will not entertain the idea that one might stop drinking and afterward have a need or desire to address the harm done by drinking? Do we owe no one anything, even if we've ripped their lives up with our drinking and drunken behavior? Did you just stop drinking and pick up your life as if nothing had ever happened, as if you weren't a total flaming asshole for the entire time you were drunk? If so, you have a boatload of unfinished business to take care of. That or else you're biking and cooking and gardening and swimming and playing football all by yourself.
Pennywise
Mon, 10/24/2011 - 22:12
Permalink
What makes you suggest that
What makes you suggest that he was a total flaming asshole the entire time he was drunk? I doubt that was the case. Indeed, isn't that itself an example of all or nothing, either/or thinking?
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
marietta davis
Mon, 10/24/2011 - 22:39
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Re: flaming alimentary canal
Take the booze out of the asshole and you still have the asshole. He has been nothing but a flaming asshole to me in every single exchange here.
This is what makes me suggest it, suspect it, conclude it: my experience with msafrany tells me so. You disagree? Well, then, has he agreed with you on a topic or two? Has he pulled his punches with you? Mm hm. Then you would think he's a pretty okay guy. I do not. This is not either/or thinking. He is uniformly ugly to me. I respond in kind. It's not like there was a choice somewhere along the line. (Please, no Gandhiisms here. Thanks.)
Pennywise
Mon, 10/24/2011 - 23:13
Permalink
Well, most of 12 stepping
Well, most of 12 stepping (except for praying and recruiting others) involves focusing on how we are fundamentally fucked up people. What I got from his post is that that might not be the best way to live. Every damn meeting the topic is something like powerlessness, defects, making amends, taking inventory, blah blah blah. NEVER, NOT ONCE, have I been to a meeting where the topic has been something like "activities to enjoy sober" or "not dwelling on the past." I think that is telling.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
marietta davis
Tue, 10/25/2011 - 00:03
Permalink
Fucked up? Hell yes.
"We will not regret the past nor wish to shut the door on it." ~ Alcoholics Anonymous, p. 83. This suggests a neutral stance, not a pathological one.
AA did not suggest to me "activities to enjoy sober", nor do I believe that's the purpose of the program. I went there to learn how to live a decent life without booze, not how to ride a Harley or play the piano.
Pennywise
Tue, 10/25/2011 - 00:13
Permalink
Doesn't enjoying sober
Doesn't enjoying sober activities and learning how to live a decent life without booze sort of go hand in hand? I mean, it seems pretty straightforward that a lot of people are not going to stay sober for long if they don't have sober activities that they enjoy.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
marietta davis
Tue, 10/25/2011 - 00:47
Permalink
among the ruins
No, they do not. If sober means without any intoxicant in the bloodstream and nothing more, then additional effort may be called for to learn how to live effectively. I've been sober a long time and there are still things that most people would consider enjoyable that I will not engage in. I have no money, I'm not an outdoor person, I have to be dragged outside to ride my bike. I do it. I make myself do it. But I do not enjoy it.
So happy for most of you who have settled back into what might be considered a balanced life. I have not. My employment opportunities come along once or twice every year, and I don't really enjoy that either - it's a black hole that sucks the life out of me for many months at a stretch, and it does not involve income until the very end, which is a gamble because it involves art.
I have been treated for mental illness for 22 years. This condition precludes "enjoying sober activities". Treatment can be considered fairly successful because I'm alive. You, Pennywise, are talking about the majority of people. I do not believe the minority is all that small and insignificant. Lots of people have additional work to do after stopping drinking or using. And then, of course, there are those really deserving and iconic "alcoholics" who are absolutely golden the very second they move away from their drug of choice. Why, there are some on this very forum.
Pennywise
Tue, 10/25/2011 - 01:23
Permalink
First,
First,
The fucking sucks about your situation. I really hope things turn around soon for you.
Second,
I know it is a struggle to enjoy sober activities. For a long time, alcohol was my main source of pleasure. I associate so many activities with drinking that it can be hard. Going to the beach, camping, hiking, doing stuff with friends, picnics, going for drives, all of those activities can trigger cravings. Personally, I need to re-learn how to enjoy some of those things sober. It is NOT easy for me. Indeed, for me, it is the hardest part about staying sober. I get no help with that whatsoever at the AA meetings I have to sit through. Discussing my character defects day in and day out just does not help with these cravings. I hope you understand that I am in no way trying to say this thing is easy.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
Brett
Tue, 10/25/2011 - 02:53
Permalink
Positions vacant mariette
Stop indolgeing in recoveryism. Go get a real job. You just wanna be a sick person trying to get betta.
Brett
marietta davis
Tue, 10/25/2011 - 13:13
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Next?
Thanks for sharing.
Next?
marietta davis
Tue, 10/25/2011 - 13:24
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> Brett
If I had a PhD in Fluid Dynamics you would recommend to me a job in public fountain maintenance.
Brett
Tue, 10/25/2011 - 14:55
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mariette maintainence
Toilet cleaner be more your speed, your used to the main product
Brett
shadow
Tue, 10/25/2011 - 13:48
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naughty comment
you're probably a sick person with a job. That's America these days. I probably worked with someone like you. Were you one of the many hacking it up & spitting on the sidewalk?
Shadow
msafrany
Tue, 10/25/2011 - 08:42
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Lmao!
Taught you how to live? Lmao! You should demand a refund.
marietta davis
Tue, 10/25/2011 - 13:16
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More judgment - thanks, Golden Boy!
You can't make that call without having known me before I sobered up. If you had the one to compare to the other you would probably retract your statement.
shadow
Tue, 10/25/2011 - 13:44
Permalink
lmao is that lingo we're supposed to understand?
who is giving refunds? lmao?
Shadow
msafrany
Tue, 10/25/2011 - 18:09
Permalink
Love It!
We have another Troll. Welcome to the party Shadow.
Btw, lmao means laughing my ass off.
Btw means by the way.
Hey Shadow, why don't you let Marietta crash on your couch, and in return she can teach you how to live?
LMAO!!!!
Persephone In Exile
Tue, 10/25/2011 - 18:22
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EXCUSE ME?!? What the flying
EXCUSE ME?!? What the flying fuck did you just say? I don't think so. Ripped up their lives with OUR behavior? Did not enough of this kind of shaming and guilting go on in the treatment centers and meetings we've attended/been forced to attend? Yeah, I think it has. Certainly in my case. I've been accused of the crimes of someone else's SISTER based solely on the grounds that the accuser claimed "all addicts are the same", and I'm sure everyone else here has had guilt force-fed to them by gangs of stepping thugs, and it isn't acceptable, never again. NEVER AGAIN.
How dare you come here and pull that same garbage when people here are doing their best to GET AWAY from that damaging kind of thinking! What right do YOU have, what kind of moral arbiter are you exactly, aside from the very same set of drones who truly make xA such a horrible experience? No one has the right to call people on things they might never have done, especially based on some half-baked assumption that "all addicts and alcoholics do that". You keep crying out accusations of bigotry left & right here, how about this worst bigotry of all, creating a stereotype based on a fake disease and telling the whole world that those labeled with this mythical disease must live in a constant and eternal state of groveling just because we might have "done something to hurt someone"?
You need a serious getaway. A GET AWAY. Go atone somewhere else for how awful you think you were when you used/drank and leave people here the hell alone, already. (or as I said before, maybe it's good you're here and not abusing some newcomers somewhere, at least we can handle your sorry ass) But don't think that I (for one, and sorry, I know you can take care of yourself with Marietta....) will just sit here and not speak up. I hope your goal was to inspire me to greater activism, because it is working.
(Sorry Orange, I had to.)
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
marietta davis
Tue, 10/25/2011 - 18:43
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Might NEVER have done?
I couldn't even read this all the way through before I had to offer you an apology, Jesus, Son of God! I didn't realize I was directing my comments to someone without sin, someone who never did anybody wrong ever and will continue to live that pristine and divine life until s/he drops dead.
Have I said addiction is a disease? Have I said alcoholism is a disease? Why, you're accusing me of something I've never done! That makes you a fucking hypocrite. What right do I have? Same as anyone here, no greater, no less. You don't like what I write? Then don't read it. You want to live in a fucking bubble where no one holds you accountable for anything you may have done in your life that hurt someone? Great. I will stand outside the bubble and make sure you can't get out.
What is permissible for you is permissible for me.
Persephone In Exile
Tue, 10/25/2011 - 19:01
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No, you will not. In the real
No, you will not. In the real world, this is called stalking. I've met al/nar anons with this attitude, the idea that they should be the one to rat someone out everywhere they go because they once used drugs. Or drank. Etc. The concept itself really pisses me off, when applied to people who've never committed a criminal act, such as people who've been in xA. You do have the right to comment on a forum, but not to cyberstalk people. You can say, "Fine don't read it" if you like, but you just contradicted that by the end of your comment when you said you'd "stand outside.....and make sure (I) can't get out". That is something you don't have the right, morally or legally, to do.
But thanks for inspiring a few more blog posts.....
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
marietta davis
Tue, 10/25/2011 - 19:44
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You actually feel threatened?
Well, thank you for that good and great advice, Racehorse Haynes. You have no say over my moral conduct, and I have not broken any laws, so ... back to the ol' drawing board, hoss.
You think that's what I'm doing here, "ratting out people who have ever used drugs", or whatever that silly shit was? I'm ever so disappointed that I haven't quite got my point across. Guess I'll have to post more and louder and more offensively so you can gather my meaning, yes?
P.S.: Actually, yes I will.
Persephone In Exile
Tue, 10/25/2011 - 20:35
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No, I think you're the old
No, I think you're the old hag mother from the 1993 film, "The Ref". The one who ends up tied up by her entire family for being cruelly annoying. You think I'm bothered by your condescension when you say "that silly shit" referring to comments you don't even understand? No. OK, don't make a big point about how you'll be there outside of our bubbles forever to remind us we've all "caused hurt" or whatever you said, don't tell other commenters that they shouldn't be going about their happy lives because--again--you think they did harm in the world and I won't fucking call you on saying those exact things. Fine, be offensive. Take it up a notch. All the better. We need an example we can cut and paste. You are a useful idiot in this case, glad you realize that bit.
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
marietta davis
Tue, 10/25/2011 - 20:46
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self-banishment: what do the experts say?
Glad to be of help!
Didn't see "The Ref" so your image means nothing to me. I didn't threaten to be outside anyone's bubble but yours, so no need to defend anyone else. But even if I should walk away from it and leave it untended, I have doubts that you would ever really get out of it. After all, you're the one in exile.
Just a thought.
Persephone In Exile
Tue, 10/25/2011 - 22:04
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Get out of not being analyzed
Get out of not being analyzed endlessly by steppers? No, I'm out of it, thanks, appreciate the concern. Those people were really harmful to my life. I cut them out. Glad you care. If you want to talk mythology and how I relate it to having to live in a place with cold weather, I am here often. Thanks again for the concern. And for admitting you "threatened" something....lol.
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
marietta davis
Tue, 10/25/2011 - 22:25
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take another look
No, I guess you didn't read msafrany's post about how seeking help isn't verboten here. I was referring to psychotherapy, not to being "analyzed endlessly be steppers".
Fuck mythology and weather. Do you want to honestly engage here or not?
marietta davis
Mon, 10/24/2011 - 21:49
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> SHADOW
There is no solution here. This forum is about people who feel they were victimized by Alcoholics Anonymous or Narcotics Anonymous and now they are out to vilify all 12-Step programs. Here you will read posts by people who contend that they're smarter than most any "recovery program", that they are better off just not drinking and shooting up dope ... until the next time they drink or shoot up dope. As a forum it is lenient with regard to language and topics permitted, and yet it is strangely battened down and hermetically sealed when it comes to alternative opinions. The most you will ever see in acceptance of anything 12-Step-related is a begrudging acknowledgement that AA maybe might have helped a few people once in its history. The rest is recounting 12-Step history - the good, the bad and the ugly, minus the good - mostly under a microscope with flaws and inclusions which appear in the form of rancorous opinion.
Some information to be found here is fact, but fact takes a back seat to pontificating judgment. You may be well advised to take cover when attempting to create a bridge between the non-program program people and those who have benefitted from 12-Step treatment. The non-program program people absolutely will not tolerate any suggestion that the steps can help anyone. They draw a quick line between first walking through the doors of AA to instantly becoming a zombie, a moron, a cult member, someone who cannot think for himself. The npp people cannot or will not conceive of any different sort of 12-Step experience. "Recruits" show up, they have their lobotomies, and then they try to pray away the troubles of the world.
Do not let it discourage you. Just be prepared for ugliness because, for most of the tenants on this forum, this all they have. No one will be surprised to see you go if you choose to. The only thing they are looking for is someone to validate or ratify their arrogant, myopic viewpoints.
Good luck.
shadow
Mon, 10/24/2011 - 23:04
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wonderful response = works for some
I will agree the 12 step program had never seemed to address my underlying issue of PTSD = I doubt they ever could....it's just just not " in the program' - = many people with /mental health issues (and who in AA have none) never get to the source of their problem. I don't think people are just ;alcoholics;....there;s always a reason underlying their drinking. Unfortunately the 12 steps never get to that point = they're always too busy 'blaming' the drinker.......3 words that must leave any sort of valid recovery are " shame, blame, guilt. In 26 years, I've never felt the steps go very deep (look into Buddhist theory for that) Fortunately, I've found a one-on-one PTSD counselor that may help me get to the heart of the matter. By they way,,,,I also tried swimming,etc - -- but there's a saying :"The body remembers,,,we can trick it with exercise, medication,,but one day it will present it's bill." For me, ;pime has come today{
Shadow
marietta davis
Mon, 10/24/2011 - 23:54
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PTSD
For five years, from 1984 through 1989, I was in weekly therapy with a PhD psychologist named Rosemary. She told me about a patient she once had, a middle aged man, who was having great difficulty with personal issues and was extremely distraught about it. When he was a teenager he was raped in his high school locker room. It was a room that was cleaned every day by the maintenance crew with Pine Sol. The boy never told anyone about the incident. One day this man had a breakthrough in therapy, when he reached a critical moment including graphic memories and a compelling need to be free of the assault. As he began to relate the details to Rosemary, his body began to exude the odor of Pine Sol. Yes, the body remembers.
I applaud you for searching for and enlisting the help of a PTSD counselor who is willing to work with you to resolve whatever is troubling you. I experienced repeated sexual assault and molestation as a child and it is no easy task to get a grip on the demon and defuse it. Continue to search for solutions that work for you, and don't forget to notice the goodness of this world along the way. Remember that scar tissue is tougher than skin; it serves a purpose, but that purpose is not to keep sorrow in or keep deliverance out.
Best,
marietta
msafrany
Tue, 10/25/2011 - 00:23
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Wow Marietta
You sure have made a case for the 12 steps. Sounds like you have worked through all your issues and are now happy, joyous and free.
It's like I just need to wrap you in a blanket with some hot coffee and give you a hug :-)
shadow
Tue, 10/25/2011 - 13:34
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why are you such an ass
she never referred to the 12 steps in her compassionate reply to ME ( how you fit in this questionable at best) - no one needed of benefited from your stupid comments - I doubt if either Marietta or I would take either a hug (yuck), a warm blanket or a hot cup of coffee from the likes of you. You're like most men I despise for their phoniness.....want a cup of tea & chat???? Ha!
Shadow
msafrany
Tue, 10/25/2011 - 18:28
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Yes
You and Marietta have found each other.
Enjoy a life of endless self examination of your boring diseases.
Where do i fit in the conversation? Here is the order of events, please verify above.
1) You posted a topic.
2) I thought I gave you a clear and sincere answer without wanting to rape you.
3) Marietta bashes the fuck out of me and my statements in "what about the folks you screwed".
4) I am now responding to HER.
5) For some reason I am now phoney and an ass because I have a DICK.
6) Below Marietta goes psycho and calls me uncaring after she rips me and my original post without provocation.
Did I miss anything?
marietta davis
Tue, 10/25/2011 - 18:52
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you're mistaken again
You're reading way too much into this, frany. No one said or even presumed you had a dick.
Persephone In Exile
Tue, 10/25/2011 - 23:04
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OK, I'll admit it, sometimes
OK, I'll admit it, sometimes my entire "program" for living happily is to just laugh my ass off over comments like that one. Frany, every single point is just keeping me laughing. "because I have a DICK". Well, you summed up this thread. And a few others.
It really is, as far as any "program" is concerned, about no longer viewing yourself as diseased. Or out of control. Not giving into self-fulfilling prophecy thinking. Once you shed that trap of a way of thinking, change your way of thinking, etc. it kind of falls into place. Do things you love. Hell, for me almost everything involves my alone time. In "recovery" I wasn't really allowed much alone time, and what I was was something I was told to feel guilty about unless it was meditation (helping my "sobriety"), reading the Big Book or Basic Text, doing step work, etc. OK, not everyone in xA can really be that boring, even I can't accept that, but honestly, once I realized I was in control (and not desiring to or ever going to use anything again like I had) I was great again. My injuries had healed, physical and emotional, and I didn't want to be someone "with problems" anymore, which included being viewed as an addict. So I made the change. Keep making the change. I don't have anything to do with people who are judgmental like that. Who want to analyze every bit of my personality and nitpick. But then, most people don't like associating with people who act like that to a negative degree. It's an auto-pilot sort of thing for me. When I was down I thought it wouldn't ever be this way, but well, there it is.
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
msafrany
Thu, 10/27/2011 - 07:13
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Agreed Exile
It really is a state of mind. Practicing the 'principles' of the 12 steps becomes a mental trap, a mindset. Thats why you hear people decades sober proudly declare at meetings that another 4th step has revealed yet another defect of cbaracter on which they can now work on. And the group nods with approval how the oldtimer still acknowledges the need to 'work the program'. The oldtimer feels like they still belong.
marietta davis
Thu, 10/27/2011 - 09:35
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And this bothers you?
And this bothers you?
Persephone In Exile
Thu, 10/27/2011 - 12:19
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Funny, I can't remember where
Funny, I can't remember where I saw this on tv, just a character returning to others with the explanation that "that much self-reflection really isn't healthy". The same thought I'd had constantly with xA.
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
Ironic
Tue, 10/25/2011 - 20:52
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She talks like people that
She talks like people that work the 12 Steps never relapse.
marietta davis
Wed, 10/26/2011 - 00:33
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why?
Of course 12 Step people can relapse. Why do you try to stuff deliberately fictitious words in people's mouths? I for one have never have said people who use the 12 Steps don't relapse. Many do, and I've been there when they have come back from the edge. I have never denied this.
shadow
Wed, 10/26/2011 - 20:05
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take off those sunglasses pal
who/what are you hiding from? Maybe,it's you. Give us a REAL look = your "Miami Vice" ain't fooling me
Shadow
marietta davis
Tue, 10/25/2011 - 01:05
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Don't look, frany! Don't look!!
How did you get to be such a caustic, uncaring, malicious son of a bitch? What man would be proud to call you his friend? What woman would cheapen herself to take you on?
Keep hiking and swimming and cooking, frany, round the clock until you drop. It'll distract you from the main event, maybe indefinitely. Maybe your dream will come true and you can die without ever having to know yourself.
Love always,
marietta
btnben
Tue, 10/25/2011 - 03:03
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And this from someone.......
.........who, a few days ago, wished a person would go and die in a fire?. You're a joke Marietta - fuck off.
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
marietta davis
Tue, 10/25/2011 - 13:05
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Fuck off? No way!
Yes, these two posts came from the same person. They are consistent in their disgust with the pompous windbags who populate this forum.
What's your point, ben?
shadow
Tue, 10/25/2011 - 13:40
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your dog comments are stupid
dogs are smarter than that, stop cheapening their value with your ridiculous comment at the end of every one of your 'statements;, haven't you been arrested yet with you stupid 'philosophy.' Would you actually pee on a dog? What a foolish thing to say
Shadow
Viejo
Tue, 10/25/2011 - 14:12
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So that's what he meant!?!?!
All this time I thought btnben was talking about handling stressful situations as a dog would handle them, i.e. the Dog would piss on the Situation.
Now I find out the DOG gets pissed on. That's outrageous! Who would piss on a cute* little dog, indeed?
If I ever run into btnben (Bristol, is it?) I'll give him a pissing he'll never likely bloody forget! And a nasty ankle bite to boot.
*You gotta admit, I am cute.
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean someone isn't out to get you.
shadow
Tue, 10/25/2011 - 16:57
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cute? you're dreaming
are all, or just a select few of you men ( and it's painfully obvious you are men) are totally obtuse? Some brains, some decent verbiage might help you get a point across. Until then, you all sound idiotic, pointless and comically dramatic. (Ps, you're note a bit cute)
Shadow
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