Steppers, time to stand your ground!

Pennywise's picture
Submitted by Pennywise on Mon, 08/06/2012 - 14:30

Enough petty bickering about side issues and personalities here. It is time for the steppers to come forth and defend the 12 Step Program on its MERITS. Tell us, how exactly are the Steps supposed to work? If you have a case (as opposed to trading insults), now is the time to present it. No riddles or cryptic replies. Perhaps you can start with this: is it your contention that if you do what the Big Book says, a God of your understanding will perform the supernatural miracle of removing your obsession to drink?

Comments

becket's picture

becket

Tue, 08/07/2012 - 22:07

Or beliefs can inspire courage - like the belief that life without alcohol can be rewarding in ways that sodden life cannot.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Tue, 08/07/2012 - 04:44

Put it this way:

Beliefs are illusory manifestations of our chemical brain states. While beliefs themselves are not real, the underlying chemical brain states are.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Wed, 08/08/2012 - 06:06

The Power of the Mind: Quotes to Get You Thinking:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/high-octane-women/201201/the-power-t...

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Tue, 08/07/2012 - 04:51

This goes to the heart of "discussions" I have had on this forum about beliefs, and actions that people CAN take based upon those beliefs. becket, and yourself pennyW, disagree with my position on that. So be it.

Beliefs can be very powerful things. Yes, beliefs can, and do, inspire strength. And as gunthar points out, beliefs can also, and do, cause weakness in people.

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Tue, 08/07/2012 - 05:05

To clarify, LFOD, I don't disagree with you that people take actions based on beliefs. Where we disagree is that I deny that the beliefs themselves have real existence.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Tue, 08/07/2012 - 05:45

PennyW, your position on the subject matter is duly noted.

So is AA in "reality" a placebo effect?

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Tue, 08/07/2012 - 06:19

Judging AA in the most favorable light I can, that is generally what I would conclude, and it is what Becket seems to hint at. But I don't want to speak for her or lock her position into stone unless she wants to.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

becket's picture

becket

Tue, 08/07/2012 - 22:09

Pennywise, do you believe in anything you cannot experience with your senses? Are there such things as love or justice or integrity or evil?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Wed, 08/08/2012 - 03:46

Pennywise, do you believe in anything you cannot experience with your senses?

Absolutely. For example, I have never seen an electron, but I believe they exist.

Are there such things as love or justice or integrity or evil?

No, at least not in any objective ontological sense. Like beliefs, those things are illusory manifestations of the mind. I am a strong subjectivist in this regard. It really comes down the difference between facts and opinions. Love, justice, integrity, and evil are basically just opinions (in the form of value judgements) and have no "real" ontological existence.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

billybudd

Mon, 08/06/2012 - 20:29

There's only one 'step': within or without. I think that the use of 'steppers' as pejorative absolutely places you within. Inferring a worse causes to arise a better, no two ways about it. I've been to one meeting in the last 4 months and remained sober for that one day - weird. There was one other person there, an older lady; we had tete-a-tete extended session which certainly helped her, given the effusive hugs and thanks. Helped me? I'll still die, I'm still fucked, still wretched, still will never willingly make 'amends'. I stepped without. What's stopping you - shit stinks so good, gotta roll in it?

As far as 'how it works', the methodology is timeless and well-documented, don't play dumb. The hitch is it takes paltry faith, not monumental belief, but itsty-bitsy faith, that trust that a plummet is angel's flight. I can't

Clara's picture

Clara

Mon, 08/06/2012 - 20:33

I wish you had met us at White Sands National Momument, Billy.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

billybudd

Mon, 08/06/2012 - 20:55

how many years of celibacy does it take to revert to a condition of virginity? You're fetching in that pic, btw. One dude from my bygone meetings was gonna hunt oryx at White Sands during July (fucking idiot). Could be you met him, a gentle and competent NM old boy named John. What would you have done if we met - titillation or bland compliment. I enjoy your diabolical sarcasm and indefatigable good-naturedness and the sweet, sweet ass of my imagination.

Clara's picture

Clara

Mon, 08/06/2012 - 21:18

Gosh, Billy, thank you for the compliment. Not too sure how to take the rest! I don't know if hunting oryx is a good idea since it is federal land but perhaps they do it as management... The weather was wonderful.

There was a Full Moon meeting there. It was a good event.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Mon, 08/06/2012 - 21:32

ROFLMAO!

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

billybudd

Mon, 08/06/2012 - 21:42

John don't fuck around, permitted through and through. Who knew there were oryxes down there? Apparently introduced to forage inedibles, then out-competed all the other inedible foragers. Go figure.

You're welcome! When all else fails, kindness and compassion will remain true ... I've heard.

becket's picture

becket

Mon, 08/06/2012 - 22:38

billybudd, I lived six continuous years, and then 11 continuous years in a state of absolute celibacy and did not revert to virginity. I don't mean biologically speaking, but in every other way I turned out to resume my natural state with no problem.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

billybudd

Tue, 08/07/2012 - 07:37

Cracking wise, my lovely. A frisbee friend was telling me some olympian was a virgin. I asked how he knew: no oral? no heavy petting? did he inspect the hymen? He said she said so on TV. OK by me, and then I'm a virgin too. Sure I've done all the stuff which ought to cancel the state of virginity, but not in 3 years and never sober. Let me tell you, the divide between too drunk to fuck and drunck enuf to not cum is a razor's edge. If Mary the mother of God wants to call herself a virgin, well, jimdandy by me. As dumb and clumsy as kids are today and so much less sophisticated back in olden times, I might privately assume she was mistaken, dreamy. Not my call - all hers. Some around here will sententiously declare others "judge" or say others don't belong. What they do is make themselves judge by fiat, make themselves not belong by exclusion. Everyone's a virgin by some standard. yay

I'm a virgin, knowing that entails more than brief grapplings and slippings; intimacy, comfort, heart's desire, etc. are devoid in me. I'll die this way, the good lord willing. OK by me because I seem to have no choice in the matter. All the parts work, but I can't seem to put them to symbiotic, synergistic, satisfying use.

Wanna spoon?

becket's picture

becket

Tue, 08/07/2012 - 22:12

Any time.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Mon, 08/06/2012 - 20:40

Why live like that, Billy? You were sober for awhile. I'd rather you be happy than win this debate with you, so by all means try doing the Steps if you think they work and prove me wrong! I'm rooting for you, truly.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

billybudd

Mon, 08/06/2012 - 21:01

I'll end up in the same place no matter how I get there, perhaps insufficient resource of contrarian nature hasn't served me well, but hell, I'm reasonably fit and decidedly alive right now; who knows what tomorrow will bring. I trust and hope you're well, friend. Obviously working the (anti-) steps get you along the path to ...

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Mon, 08/06/2012 - 21:19

Well, billy, alive is a start. Just hope you can find some happiness somehow. Just do what ever you need to get there. BTW, where is this documentation, other than wilson's lies in the big book? He did say otherwise later you understand.

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

billybudd

Mon, 08/06/2012 - 21:35

I don't expect 'happiness' and don't suffer sadness, I'm inert with a resting pulse rate of 50 bpm. I could easily live to 100, but why? The only power within my ken is to endure or not. Planning on sticking it out til October; plans change.

Which 'big book' do you consult? None at all? Fine! That you comb the minutiae for 'wilson's lies' belies that 'fine'. Choose no book or choose something superior (orange-papers?!); the life you live will judge you or not, depending on whichever fallible tome you rely. Really, if easy answers were written down, don't you think we'd all agree? Simple is as simple does. Now, what's 'simple'? Honestly, I'm befuddled: what?

Vicky345uk

Tue, 08/07/2012 - 05:37

If your programme is working and you are on a spiritual path why come on here trying cause trouble???? No way are you happy. I remember hearing that bullshit in AA " hang around in a barbers long enough and your goona get a hair cut" well hang around opf long enough your going to see the light and get out of the cult....

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Tue, 08/07/2012 - 05:49

I didn't think AA espouses science. What gives with getting a haircut?

http://www.osmosis.com/

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

Vicky345uk

Tue, 08/07/2012 - 05:52

You been to osmosis????

flannigan

Tue, 08/07/2012 - 08:19

I (and I imagine most of the general population) always thought that the purpose of AA is to help alcoholics overcome their addiction/alcohol problem. The relevant question is DOES it work, not how or why. If AA has no better success in accomplishing this goal than no treatment at all, what is AA's purpose?

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Tue, 08/07/2012 - 15:45

Just curious.

I know CLar has access to a miracles class. Any interesting news on that front?

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

Gunthar2000's picture

Gunthar2000

Tue, 08/07/2012 - 15:48

because they're only here to derail threads. They know that they would get their asses kicked in a true and honest discussion about the AA cult. We've heard everything they have to say over and over, and we know how to respond.

AA is a religious cult dressed up to look like a treatment for alcoholism.

Gunthar2000

http://www.expaa.org/

becket's picture

becket

Tue, 08/07/2012 - 22:17

These things are said over and over in an effort to counter the vile bullshit that comes from the hating side - over and over. If it seems redundant it is because your arguments are redundant and require constant, similar rejoinder.

Since you've been here I don't think you've kicked anyone's ass on any topic. And if you think I for one am afraid to take any of this discussion face to face, you're wrong.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

becket's picture

becket

Tue, 08/07/2012 - 22:21

Who are you asking? Whose opinion would you value in this situation? I would say Pennywise would have the last say in this, but keep in mind, the scattered nature of the forum postings and the time deficit mean it will be hard to tell. I don't think I adequately answered all of Pennywise's questions for a "scoring" event, but in the little time I had I tried to address them with sincerity.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Wed, 08/08/2012 - 03:39

You did great, Becket. I'm not keeping score anyway.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

NoNonsense's picture

NoNonsense

Wed, 08/08/2012 - 05:52

I've been reading this thread for awhile, but I found most of what I've been reading so uninteresting and boring I didn't really have anything to say. That might make the trolls happy, who knows? As far as it goes with me, it just confirms what a waste of time, resources (motor vehicle operating expenses) , etc. it would be to be going to all those stepper meetings! I have better things to do, and since I stopped going to those meetings, my mind has not been flooded with thoughts of consuming alcohol. I know it is my choice to stay away from alcohol and not subject to the whim of the decision of something, someone or some institution outside of myself to do it for me. I'm glad this website is not a public stockholders corporation with all these trolls being stockholders ! I'd then be worried that this could be a hostile takeover !!! LOL !!!!

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Wed, 08/08/2012 - 06:19

NoNonsense says: "I'm glad this website is not a public stockholders corporation with all these trolls being stockholders !" Ditto. I'm glad this website is not a public corporation with all these haters being board members (or chairman of the board or chief executive officer) or managers or workers. LOL!

Or maybe OPF is the epitome of a union. Lots of whining and complaining and threats of strikes. LOL!

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Wed, 08/08/2012 - 06:34


live_free_and_die whines: "Have any steppers stood their ground?"
It's over Anakin. I have the high ground. (And from where you are standing, you may lose your legs. LOL!)

Vicky345uk

Tue, 08/07/2012 - 16:05

Aa cult wankers. If these were face to face meetings they would run and never come back. Clara Danny bucket and all the other trolls are all key board warriors.....

becket's picture

becket

Tue, 08/07/2012 - 22:18

Keyboard warriors with endurance. I don't threaten to leave and then come back on crack, so I have you beat right there, victor.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Wed, 08/08/2012 - 06:23

Stern said. "I would say that slacktivism ends and activism begins when the fingers leave the Apple keyboard and the butt leaves the Herman Miller chair."

Vicky345uk

Wed, 08/08/2012 - 06:22

You have a good day now...

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Wed, 08/08/2012 - 06:48

pennyW asked: "is it your contention that if you do what the Big Book says, a God of your understanding will perform the supernatural miracle of removing your obsession to drink?

So it seems to me that only CLar and becket attempted to answer this question. And although I might be wrong, I don't think either of them said that god performed a personal miracle by removing their obsession to drink.

There was mention that AA/12 steps might be a pacebo effect earlier.

I am no AA historian, but doesn't the BB, and Billy w.'s position, boil down to "you must work the steps and turn your life over to god", and once god is in the drivers seat of your life your obsession to drink will be removed by god and your life will become miraculous as a result. You must know Him and welcome him with prayers and meditation in order for your life to become manageable.

So what is the deal?

Is AA a placebo effect?

Is the BB, the 12 steps and traditions a bunch of hooyeyas written and practiced?

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Wed, 08/08/2012 - 10:27

That's a good summary, LFOD.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Wed, 08/08/2012 - 10:44

Of course I think AA is a bunch of crap but I've time and again taken another look at it. I've given AA hundreds of chances. My interpretation of the book and step work tells me that it supposedly "works" by way of a spiritual experience that is acheived by step work. Throughout all of the time I spent in the program I met only one person that said that she had a spiritual experience and the desire to use magically lifted. It was many times that I've heard people say they were a miracle, but didn't get specific about it how. I endlessly heard the boring and standard, "it works if you work it" which of course leaves the door open to interpretation and questioning.

I think it's 12 layers of crap. But regarding the lucky soul that may think that by the grace of God think they were lifted of their alcohol obsession, I honestly don't want to take it from them. However I contend that since the steps are such sensitive material, if a sp experience isn't acheived then the steps can be dangerous tools. Without the experience at the end, steppers are left with many open wounds. I know that I was. There isn't an alternative plan in case it doesn't work which so often seems to be the case. I think of the thousands stuck. It is they that are stuck without anyone adequately trained to help them when the HP doesn't save them as they were told it would.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

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