Perhaps the main reason I "hate" AA

"We seriously thought of rewriting the laws of the land, and having it declared that alcoholics are sick people." 12&12 pg 155

Sadly, I think the above is exactly what has been done.

Comments

Pennywise's picture

For one, because the Baker Act excludes intoxication and substance abuse impairment from the definiton of mental illness.

So I was wrong a few posts earlier when I said the Marchman Act deals with the mental illness of substance abuse. In Florida, substance abuse is a disease, but not a mental illness, at least under these acts.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Pennywise's picture

http://www.dcf.state.fl.us/programs/samh/SubstanceAbuse/marchman/marchma...

History
In 1970 the Florida Legislature enacted Chapter 397 governing the Treatment and Rehabilitation of Drug Dependents in 1970. The following year, it enacted Chapter 396 titled the Myers Act as the state’s “Comprehensive Alcoholism Prevention, Control, and Treatment Act”, modeled after the federal Hughes Act. Each of these laws, each governing different aspects of addiction had a different Florida Administrative Code (or rules) promulgated by the state to fully implement the respective pieces of legislation.
Since persons with substance abuse issues often don’t contain their misuse to one substance or another, having two separate laws dealing with the prevention and treatment of addiction was cumbersome and did not address the problems faced by Florida’s citizens.
In 1993 Representative Steven Wise of Jacksonville introduced legislation to combine chapters 396 and 397 of Florida Statutes into a single law that clearly spelled out legislative intent, licensure of service providers, client rights, voluntary and involuntary admissions, offender and inmate programs, service coordination, and children’s substance abuse services.
The statute was named the Hal S. Marchman Alcohol and Other Drug Services Act of 1993 -- generally referred to as the Marchman Act. The Act was named after Rev. Hal. S. Marchman, a tireless advocate for persons who suffer from alcoholism and drug abuse, who was recognized by the Legislature for his contributions addressing the delivery of substance abuse services. a prominent advocate for improved substance abuse services.

To implement the new chapter 397, Florida Administrative Code was developed to provide the standards that service providers must uphold in order to be licensed to serve persons with addictions. It also provided detailed policies governing the entire licensing process as well as other provisions. These rules are identified as Chapter 65D-30 of the Florida Administrative Code. These rules have specific legislative authority. Since the rules cannot restate language from the statute, it is critical that individuals are aware of the provision from the law AND the rules in order to carry out the law, protect their agencies from liability, and protect their clients from harm.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Pennywise's picture

http://www.dcf.state.fl.us/programs/samh/SubstanceAbuse/marchman/marchma...

The Florida Mental Health Act
The Baker Act Chapter 394, F.S.
The Florida Mental Health Act, better known as the Baker Act, was enacted in 1971 to provide a bill of rights for persons with mental illnesses and due process rights for those persons for whom voluntary or involuntary
procedures were initiated to provide needed treatment in times of acute Illness. Intoxication and substance abuse impairment are expressly excluded under the definition of mental illness and cannot be the basis of an involuntary examination or placement under the Baker Act. Unfortunately, law enforcement officers and mental health professionals sometimes erroneously use the Baker Act instead of the Marchman Act to be able to access care quickly in a secure location. While some persons with substance abuse impairment also have a co-occurring diagnosis of a mental illness, the mental illness must be separately diagnosed as a severe thought or mood disorder.
An adult may apply for voluntary admission under the Baker Act if found to show evidence of mental illness, to be competent to provide express and informed consent, and to be suitable for treatment.

Mental Illness means an impairment of the mental or emotional processes that exercise conscious control of one’s actions or of the ability to perceive or understand reality, which impairment substantially interferes with a person’s ability to meet the ordinary demands of living, regardless of etiology. The term does not include retardation or developmental disability as defined in Chapter 393, intoxication, or conditions manifested only by antisocial behavior or substance abuse impairment.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

LisaMarie's picture

Penny, thanks for the work you have put into this topic, I actually have learned a great deal.

alkieanon's picture

Reason for petitioner’s belief that respondent is substance abuse impaired; and

Reason for petitioner’s belief that because of such impairment, respondent has lost power of self-control with respect to substance abuse; and either

a. Reason petitioner believes the respondent has inflicted or is likely to inflict physical harm on self/others unless admitted; or

b. Reason petitioner believes respondent’s refusal to voluntarily receive care is based on judgment so impaired by reason of substance abuse to be incapable of appreciating need for care and making a rational decision.

Pennywise's picture

Marchman Act:

Reason for petitioner’s belief that because of such impairment, respondent has lost power of self-control with respect to substance abuse; and either

Step 1:

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.

-------

Marchman Act:

b. Reason petitioner believes respondent’s refusal to voluntarily receive care is based on judgment so impaired by reason of substance abuse to be incapable of appreciating need for care and making a rational decision.

Step 2:

2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

alkieanon's picture

All relevant evidence, including results to all involuntary interventions

Client to be present unless injurious – if so, court will appoint guardian advocate

Petitioner has burden of proving by clear & convincing evidence that all criteria for involuntary admission is met

Court will either dismiss petition or order client to involuntary treatment.

Pennywise's picture

So?

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

alkieanon's picture

So it goes.

alkieanon's picture

Order for involuntary treatment by licensed provider up to 60 days

Order authorizes provider to require client to undergo treatment that will benefit.

Order must include court’s requirement for notification of proposed release.

Court may order Sheriff to transport

Court retains jurisdiction over case for further orders.

Pennywise's picture

So?

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

alkieanon's picture

So it goes.

alkieanon's picture

Individual Dignity
Non-discriminatory Services
Quality Services
Communication
Care & Custody of Personal Effects
Education of Minors
Confidentiality
Counsel
Habeas Corpus

Pennywise's picture

So?

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

alkieanon's picture

So it goes.

alkieanon's picture

What about the mentally ill people of OPF? Is there any help for them?

JR Harris has accused (discriminated against and demarginalized) some of being that ("He either needs psychiatric help or has been over medicated. He is sick you know, ....")

DeConstructor's picture

people are being kidnapped and incarcerated to be forced to participate and coerced to convert to the AA faith.

It is inexcusable.

alkieanon's picture

DeConstructor claims: "people are being kidnapped and incarcerated ...." Really? Seriously?

alkieanon's picture

"A law enforcement officer acting in good faith pursuant to this part may not be held criminally or civilly liable for false imprisonment."

Pennywise's picture

I wonder how much time usually passes between the time the judge orders an involuntary commitment and the time the prisoner is handed a Big Book?

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

becket's picture

Do either of the acts demand that the incarcerated person open the Big Book and/or read it and/or agree with it and/or subject himself/herself to the suggestions found within the Big Book?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

JR Harris's picture

Florida, the main vehicle to mandate Bill Wilson worship in the court systems is in the news on Aug. 7, 2012 1:58 pm. Remember that this is the same state that gave the world the 12 child interment camps of Straight, Inc. run by Mel Sembler in Saint Petersburg, Florida in Pinellas County and where many of the Midtown, Clancy I inspired spiritual child abusers have retired too.

Another "Drug Treatment" Horror Story From Florida

Mike Riggs|Aug. 7, 2012 1:58 pm

Yesterday we told you about a Florida stock broker and grad student who practically had his life ruined after being caught with a single Oxycontin pill. The man was forced to report his no contest plea for possession to his employer, who fired him. For the next year, he was forced to attend two Narcotics Anonymous meetings a week and 15 weekend-long state-run drug courses (even though he had never taken Oxycontin), and was given a curfew that made it difficult for him to work decent at hours at his new job (being a short order cook).

That story caught the attention of another Florida man who had his life turned upside down by Florida's insane drug laws. He emailed us the following:

I was pulled over for having a dimly lit tag and asked to consent to a search before the officers even ran my license. When I refused consent, they kept me on the side of the road in the middle of the night and questioned me for over an hour before finally arresting me for a DUI after I refused to consent to a roadside urine test. They then took an "inventory" of my car and found a small quantity of LSD. [roughly 25 doses.]

So now a few months later I am in the thick of state supervision. Faced with an inordinate mandatory minimum my best bet was to agree to any program I could get into.

I immediately lost my job as a substitute school teacher and exhausted the savings I was using to pursue a degree in chemistry. Replacement work has not been easy to find and those third party [background check] groups make sure my mug shot is near the top of any google queries for my name.

LSD use is hardly the epidemic that prescription pills supposedly are, so why was our emailer facing "an inordinate mandatory minimum"? Because of the ridiculous way Florida measures drugs.

One gram of LSD crystal can yield roughly 10,000 doses. Our emailer had 50 tabs of actual LSD crystal, or roughly 4-5 miligrams. But Florida doesn't weight the amount of LSD crystal, or the active ingredient in any illicit drug. Instead, they weigh whatever the drug is on or in:

For the purpose of clarifying legislative intent regarding the weighing of a mixture containing a controlled substance described in this section, the weight of the controlled substance is the total weight of the mixture, including the controlled substance and any other substance in the mixture. If there is more than one mixture containing the same controlled substance, the weight of the controlled substance is calculated by aggregating the total weight of each mixture.

In our emailer's case, police weighed the 50 paper tabs he had, and also the vial in which the tabs were contained. So instead of having 4 miligrams of LSD--which would have been a low-level possession charge--he had 31 grams. The threshold for a mandatory minimum LSD trafficking charge is one gram. Seven grams or more, meanwhile, gets you a minimum of 15 years in prison.

Faced with spending the next decade and a half in jail for possessing a recreational amount of a relatively harmless hallucinogenic drug, our emailer spent most of his savings on an attorney who helped him get into drug treatment, and is now spending what he has left on rehab for a drug that he's not addicted to.

I again reached out to Greg Newburn of the Florida chapter of Families Against Mandatory Minimums for more context on how Florida measures drugs. He gave me an example about cocaine that's pretty shocking.

"Under that language, if you hand me a 12 ounce can of Coke, but just before you hand it to me you mix 1 gram of cocaine into the liquid, then you call the cops and tell them I'm drinking cocaine-laced Coca-Cola, I face a 7-year mandatory minimum for 'trafficking in cocaine' (more than 200 grams but less than 400 grams)," Newburn writes.

"And since Florida removed the mens rea requirement, the state doesn't even need to prove I knew the cocaine was in the can. I can present my lack of knowledge as an affirmative defense, but the jury instructions permit a jury to presume the defendant had knowledge of the illegal substance based solely on the possession."

I can only imagine how many other recreational users in Florida are wasting time and money on rehab, having their career prospects ruined, all because their only other option is a ridiculous mandatory minimum.

Source: http://reason.com/blog/2012/08/07/another-drug-treatment-horror-story-from?

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Pennywise's picture

Becket, I'd say it is a problem when the courts can deprive a person of her freedom without criminal charges in order to try and force her to chant Bill Wilson. This is so even though the person is free to reject the ideas in the scripture. Moreover, any person who resists chanting Bill Wilson in involuntary treatment will most likely receive negative progress reports, which likely means she will be deprived of her freedom for a longer period.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

alkieanon's picture

Pennywise says: "I wonder how much time usually passes between the time the judge orders an involuntary commitment and the time the prisoner is handed a Big Book?"

I wonder how much time usually passes between the time a topic is introduced and the grasping at straws begins?

Pennywise's picture

No grasping at straws. Everything is on point. Specifically, Wilson wrote about wanting alcoholics declared legally sick. The Florida legislature passed a law declaring substance abuse a disease, which allows the state to deprive citizens of their freedom without criminal changes so that the coercee can be forced to listen to Wilson's scripture. That's not just on point, it IS the point.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

JR Harris's picture

alkieanon, Alcoholics Anonymous members are not a "law enforcement officer" therefore they are liable for any and all actions they take when hunting, coercing and practicing faith healing on prospects (i.e. pigeons per Dr. Bob the co-founder, see http://orange-papers.org/forum/node/2081) for conversion to the AA Faith system.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

becket's picture

How many times has AA been successfully sued for their "liability" since 1935?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

NoAAUK's picture

What about the mentally ill people of OPF? Is there any help for them?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-1XsybbVm8

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

Alike if any of he people on here need help then it's up to them to get that help. You obviously need help because your on an anti AA website. Alkie you are sucking on the devils dick my friend. Smooch

NoAAUK's picture

"Alkie you are sucking on the devils dick my friend"

Of course he is, steppism is the devils cult

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

becket's picture

Vicky, what are you doing back here, you vile creature?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

People who work the steps don't talk like that bucket..... Dear dear you are very naughty.
Go back to step one, admit your powerlessness and come back and then make amends to me. They maybe I will forgive you LOL. Yours always Victor :-)

Come on Alike come to us anti AA people, get the freedom. I will open my arms out to you and welcome you. You will not need to suck on the devils dick anymore.

NoAAUK's picture

"I will open my arms out to you and welcome you."

I wouldn't welcome them all. Be wary

When the stepper ship sinks its deviants will try to jump ship to continue their predatory, controlling obsessions. They will make straight for the alternatives that ban 'AA bashing' as 'ranting' and counterproductive (the truth, counterproductive???). Steppers are already infiltrating SMART UK, even facilitating meetings

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

becket's picture

He can't get near it because your lips are secured around it, victor.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

alkieanon's picture

Just because you keep saying it doesn't make it so.

"At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, ...." Matthew 24:10

NoAAUK's picture

77 years of repeated stepper cult talk certainly doesn't make it true

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

alkieanon's picture

Millions of people would say it is true. LOL!

"At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, ...." Matthew 24:10

becket's picture

You don't have to believe it anymore, NoAAUK. There, there. *tucks in the little man*

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

JR Harris's picture

Alkieanon makes no logical attempts at defending the cult of Alcoholics Anonymous and reverts to "baby talk" and the "I'm rubber, your glue" defense when cornered with logic. He either needs psychiatric help or has been over medicated. He is sick you know, he's an Alcoholic, diagnosed by the other sick people in Alcoholics Anonymous!

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

alkieanon's picture

JR Harris whines: "Alkieanon makes no logical attempts at defending the cult of Alcoholics Anonymous and reverts to "baby talk" and the "I'm rubber, your glue" defense when cornered with logic. He either needs psychiatric help or has been over medicated. He is sick you know, he's an Alcoholic, diagnosed by the other sick people in Alcoholics Anonymous!"

There is no reason to defend because the attacks are utter rubbish (and rubbery too LOL!) JR Harris either needs psychiatric help or has been over medicated. He is sick you know, he's a Hater, praised by the other sick people in Orange Papers Forum!

DeConstructor's picture

another steptard claiming persecution by alleged AA 'bashers'?

AA deserves to be prosecuted rather than persecuted.

alkieanon's picture

Why discuss issues, when you can just hate, name-call, and bash on anyone who has differing opinion(s)?

becket's picture

Then you'd better get your ass into law school and put your declaration on the table.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

NoAAUK's picture

"There is no reason to defend because the attacks are utter rubbish"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xP-9eVHrvCc

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

alkieanon's picture

Just because you keep saying it doesn't make it so.

"At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, ...." Matthew 24:10

NoAAUK's picture

77 years of repeated stepper cult talk certainly doesn't make it true

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

alkieanon's picture

Millions of people would say it is true. LOL!

"At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, ...." Matthew 24:10

JR Harris's picture

Everyone else just thinks that Alcoholics Anonymous is a cult. The only reason they don't say anything out loud is because they don't want the minions from the local Intergroups to try and invade their families and friends in search for converts to the AA faith. Only the strong call the cult of Alcoholics Anonymous a cult in public. Millions of people can't be all wrong....

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

alkieanon's picture

JR Harris whines: "Everyone else just thinks that Alcoholics Anonymous is a cult." Just in the space between your ears. Got a haircut lately?

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