Steppers, time to stand your ground!

Thank you for your maturity, Penny.

I thought it was possible, so I gave it a shot. And whatever "it" may be, the obsession to drink was lifted and I gained understanding that I could live life in a more productive, better way than I had been and alcohol didn't have to be a factor.

If it hadn't worked, I would have gone on to find something that did.

We actually talked about this very subject today in our meeting.

I never took inventory of my life, saw where I had hurt others, contributed to my own pain in a few instances, and lived with such fear of others that ambitions that I would have liked to have realize were stifled. I spoke about the serious repression on the part of my mother and how she related to her daughters on another forum, only to discover that bitchiness about ex-wives was of more interest... but my mother's repression seriously inhibited my ability to ask for help, even if I could concede that I needed it, especially if that help would come from women. Being willing to take a gamble on something other than the market was big for me. I decided to trust the women and to learn from them. There were certainly some areas where reparations were made. I have often said of the forum that without them, I wouldn't have the relationship I have with my sister, and that bleeds into other areas, such as management of my dad's estate. But it all came from the willingness to step outside of myself, look inward and accept some guidance. These are all instances of stepwork. I think the obsession was lifted when pain was...

Others find this stuff in different ways. Some go to seminars, get it in church, read books, do courses in miracles, even get it through psychiatry. I found it in AA.

Pennywise, by asking this question you are placing anyone who has benefitted from the program in the slightest degree to put himself or herself in front of a firing squad. This forum has shown itself to be overall intolerant of anyone who has gained anything from AA. That would be like me saying Pennywise is nothing but a sniveling chickenshit because he doesn't reveal the nature of the problems that backed him into a having-to-go-to-meetings corner forever. Why would anyone want to reveal anything about their experiences or their philosophies here? Because almost to a man there is extreme bias against God/god or spirituality or multi-modal values which have been incorporated into our lives, you are in effect asking us to just stick our necks out for everyone's amusement and blissful ridicule. I for one don't relish the thought of offering myself to the hyenas and the buzzards voluntarily. And there is no way to ensure any modicum of civility here. There are some posters who just wait in breathless anticipation to pounce, whether there is reason or not: our newest is Vicky, the hermaphrodite from the UK. There's no stopping anyone here long enough to learn anything. That window was slammed and nailed shut long ago.

If I were to answer your question in earnest, there would be a flurry of bashing posts to follow. Would you just expect me to let them ride, or should I take them all on one at a time? Let's see, twenty thoughtful responses to twenty thoughtless, bashing posts - how long would that take? And how long would it take to respond to the outcropping of posts spawned by the original bashings?

No one has time for that. It would be 20 against one from here to eternity. I will take you all on one at a time, and determine who deserves a response and who does not; but I will not spend weeks and weeks trying to clarify my position when, really, no one wants to know about it but you. If you're that interested, email me. You know where I am.

By the time I was 23 years old I was a hooked junkie living in a tent in a park in Germany. Then I had a spiritual experience or moment of clarity, and I knew that I didn't want to live like that anymore. It was a powerful moment that brought me to tears. At the time I was wandering in and out of AA so I related the experience to the first 3 steps. It made me a true believer and I worked the rest of the steps and did everything I was told in AA because I no longer had any fight left. But I always "testified" at meetings that the only steps that ever had an effect on me were the first three. Neverthless I drank the Kool Aid and believed the steps and meetings were keeping me in fit spiritual condition. I prayed and sponored and shared and read the Big Book and preached and prayed. Ha!
To make a longer story short (it's too late), as the program became more and more depressing and intolerable, I realize that my sobering experience never had anything to do with the steps, I had two beers that morning and would have had more if I weren't broke. I also came to realize that "whatever" it is that makes people 'ready' is impossible to identify. Some people are simply the 3-5% that quit drinking (or quit smoking, or etc. etc) and the people in AA are darn sure not sober because they are rigorously honest or in fit spiritual condition.
For many people, hanging around AA and doing the dance is good enough for them and it provides them a social outlet. I prefer to be free. The best part of hanging out with 'normies' is NO DOGMA and NO ALCOHOLIC STIGMA.

AA supported my reach for sobriety through a God of my understanding. This God did not do things for me; for the first time in my life I had a non-punishing God who agreed - yes, I said agreed - to stand shoulder to shoulder with me and not kick my ass around the blissful garden. I had plenty to unlearn about this God, but I did so because I was sick of drinking and getting fired and getting busted and endangering people and myself.

No one among you will understand the role this God played in the deal, so I won't try to explain it. I often compare its effectiveness partially to a Placebo Effect - if you think it can work, maybe it will. My first day among practicing AA members was my first day sober. I did not get sober and look for support afterward. I was in outpatient, and it gave me time to get some shit together before I went back to work, so I had several weeks to disconnect from the many, many things that were driving me to drink and try living without booze. Once I was done with outpatient I went back to work. I haven't had a drink since, not even in my soup.

Since then I've incorporated several other philosophies and schools of thought in my daily living. I've not been to an AA meeting in over 20 years. I don't consider myself a "stepper", nor would I even if the term were NOT derogatory. We're all entitled to try things. Some work, some don't work so well, some not at all. I give myself five stars for diligence in the program, though; when I was going to meetings I stood by the principles of the program. I'm not perfect. Maybe that's what AA means when they say if you get away from meetings you will die, because certain good parts of me have died without continual reminders about gentility and honesty and such. Them's the breaks. I'm still above ground. That says something.

Becket, I know you’ve said before that you found a God of your understanding who was a non-punitive God, and that’s how AA helped you. But you could have found such a God anywhere, through anybody (well, not everybody, but certainly through certain people), even on your own. Personally I don’t understand the AA God being non-punitive. I, too, was raised Catholic and the AA God was just more of the same to me. I was expected to believe that the AA God had made me extremely faulty to the extent that I was pre-destined to become an alcoholic. Then I was made to suffer excruciating depression all my life, just to make me drink. All of that just to force me into destroying my life so that “I could find God and know the wonderful joys of being in AA.” Well thanks but no thanks, God. Bugger off and stay buggered off. And this same God was going to punish me if I didn’t work the steps perfectly by rescinding his daily reprieve, just like he did with many of the true believers? With Gods like that, who needs enemies? I was much closer to God before AA even during my drinking days than I felt during AA. AA just placed God into the category of absurd for me.

By the way, a placebo effect is a (usually positive) measurable effect that goes beyond the rate of spontaneous remission when people are given an inert substance. The key word here is MEASURABLE. The logical fallacy you are describing is called something like “confusing correlation with causation.” AA doesn’t raise the remission rate beyond spontaneous remission and there is even evidence to prove that it causes increased rates of binge drinking. This is a no-brainer when you consider the power of suggestion and the powerless doctrine. All AA is good at is convincing people that AA helped them quit. Almost anything would show a placebo effect. Even answering an ad in the newspaper that advertised free info on how to quit drinking has shown to have an on drinking patterns. So AA is so crazy, it effectively cancels out its own placebo effect. It’s a hindrance to recovery, no matter how much you may love your God you found in AA.