Perhaps the main reason I "hate" AA

Pennywise's picture
Submitted by Pennywise on Sun, 08/05/2012 - 19:54

"We seriously thought of rewriting the laws of the land, and having it declared that alcoholics are sick people." 12&12 pg 155

Sadly, I think the above is exactly what has been done.

Comments

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Sun, 08/05/2012 - 20:09

Bill Wilson writing the 12&12 with the dead monk Boniface through the pagan act of necromancy had it right. Speaking in Latin, the true meaning of Boniface and the Spiritualist, not Religious faith of Alcoholics Anonymous was translated with Alcoholics Anonymous members as just "alcoholics" and "we", but the actual translation should read:

"Alcoholics Anonymous seriously wants to rewrite the laws of the land, and having it declared that Alcoholics Anonymous members are sick people."

If you don't think this is true, take "real" bible classes where they actually translate the Hebrew passages into Latin and then English to understand the difference. The average AA Evangelist has a high school education or less and lies about having masters Degrees in Criminal justice, but the fact stands that the "Big Book" was written for a target audience of 5th graders.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Sun, 08/05/2012 - 21:10

Replacing ghost writing with JR Harris graffiti.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sun, 08/05/2012 - 20:08

Let me add this: there is hardly a more effective way to demarginalize a person than to declare him or her mentally sick.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Sun, 08/05/2012 - 21:14

Your never know how much they care until you are under the weather.

When you come to the end of your rope, tie a knot and hang on.

If I had my way I’d make health catching instead of disease.

I enjoy convalescence. It is the part that makes the illness worthwhile.

Sleep, riches, and health to be truly enjoyed must be interrupted.

To array a man’s will against his sickness is the supreme art of medicine.

Hope this happy get-well note adds sunshine to your day- and shows you that you’re thought of in a warm and special way!

It is a mathematical fact that fifty percent of all doctors graduate in the bottom half of their class.

As you rest and heal, know that you are thought of warmly and wished a quick recovery.

There are no mistakes, no coincidences all events are blessings given to us to learn a journey of a thousand miles started with only one step.

Being in the hospital is a downer, but there is good in everything, you are being served breakfast in bed, Get Well Soon.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Sun, 08/05/2012 - 21:36

When reading the scripture of different times, Bible study class teaches you to use the definition of words that were used during the time the scripture was written. Bill Wilson penned the "Big Book" (actually stole the words of many people, but that is a different story) in 1936. The terminology used back then meant different things than it does today. The US economy had just gone through World War I (28 July 1914 until 11 November 1918) and the great depression of the stock market crash of 1929 and World War II when Bill Wilson was traveling around the country as a salesman who never sold any stock during this time and he used the Webster Dictionary of 1913 which could not be replaced because of economic reasons (Actually Bill Wilson never sold any stock except for the 100 Man Corporation that benefited Bill Wilson, Lois Wilson and Bill's mistress Helen Wynn). Anyone in bible study will know that you have to go by the definition of the words used during that time period. Given that fact and the current dictionaries available at the time which couldn't be replaced because of economic reasons, many definitions were changed, including the definition of "Spiritual" which appears to be an attempt of boosting the medical rehab community by mandating people to the cult of Alcoholics Anonymous which Bill Wilson was making a living off of. The definition of "Spiritual" during the time that Bill Wilson was building his cults was meant to mean:

Spiritual (Page: 1388)

Spir"it*u*al (?), a. [L. spiritualis: cf. F. spirituel. See Spirit.]

1. Consisting of spirit; not material; incorporeal; as, a spiritual substance or being.

It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. 1 Cor. xv. 44.

2. Of or pertaining to the intellectual and higher endowments of the mind; mental; intellectual.

3. Of or pertaining to the moral feelings or states of the soul, as distinguished from the external actions; reaching and affecting the spirits.

God's law is spiritual; it is a transcript of the divine nature, and extends its authority to the acts of the soul of man. Sir T. Browne.

4. Of or pertaining to the soul or its affections as influenced by the Spirit; controlled and inspired by the divine Spirit; proceeding from the Holy Spirit; pure; holy; divine; heavenly-minded; -- opposed to carnal.

That I may impart unto you some spiritual gift. Rom. i. ll.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings. Eph. i. 3.

If a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one. Gal. vi. 1.

5. Not lay or temporal; relating to sacred things; ecclesiastical; as, the spiritual functions of the clergy; lords spiritual and temporal; a spiritual corporation. Spiritual coadjuctor. (Eccl.) See the Note under Jesuit. -- Spiritual court (Eccl. Law), an ecclesiastical court, or a court having jurisdiction in ecclesiastical affairs; a court held by a bishop or other ecclesiastic.
Spiritual (Page: 1388)

Spir"it*u*al, n. A spiritual function, office, or affair. See Spirituality, 2.

He assigns supremacy to the pope in spirituals, and to the emperor in temporals. Lowell.

Source:http://machaut.uchicago.edu/?resource=Webster%27s&word=spiritual&use1913...

As can be seen by any scholar in Bible Studies, Bill Wilson meant the word "Spiritual" to mean "God", but because of economic reasons and greed it has evolved to mean that you must join the cult of Alcoholics Anonymous and pay upwards of $1000 a day to a rehab to learn how to chant the 12 Commandments of Bill Wilson in 2012.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Sun, 08/05/2012 - 21:42

JR Harris claims: "When reading the scripture of different times, Bible study class teaches you to use the definition of words that were used during the time the scripture was written. Bill Wilson penned the "Big Book" ...." "As can be seen by any scholar in Bible Studies ...."

Scholars in Bible Studies are referencing the "Big Book". You heard it here first on OPF!

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Sun, 08/05/2012 - 21:43

As can be seen by alkieanon and his posts above, he is not Spiritual by any means and is just here to deflect and not add any value to the discussion, like most people of the AA Bill Wilson mentally diseased faith.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Mon, 08/06/2012 - 06:33

JR Harris whines: "As can be seen by alkieanon and his posts above, he is not Spiritual by any means and is just here to deflect and not add any value to the discussion, like most people of the AA Bill Wilson mentally diseased faith."

As can be sen by JR Harris and any of his posts, he is not Religious by any means and is just here to attack and not add any value to the discussion, like most people of the OPF AA Haters mentally diseased fear mongers.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Sun, 08/05/2012 - 21:57

Keeps squirming alkieanon, your denial is showing big time and your fan club is loosing all of its creditability.

(Patiently waiting for the childish "I'm rubber, your glue " response of the mentality of the members of the cult of Alcoholics Anonymous.) Did I mention that the "Big Book" was written for a 5th grade educational level?

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Sun, 08/05/2012 - 22:14


Teenagers!

Still patiently waiting? LOL!

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Mon, 08/06/2012 - 09:32

"like most people of the OPF AA Haters mentally diseased fear mongers."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hj732ng5wg

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Tue, 08/07/2012 - 07:04

Just because you keep saying it doesn't make it so.

"At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, ...." Matthew 24:10

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Tue, 08/07/2012 - 01:50

77 years of repeated stepper cult talk certainly doesn't make it true

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Tue, 08/07/2012 - 07:04

Millions of people would say it is true. LOL!

"At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, ...." Matthew 24:10

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Wed, 08/08/2012 - 06:54

does not make it true.

Are you referencing the millions of sheople in AA currently that the 12 steps aren't working for?

AA is a retention by relapse program.

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Tue, 08/07/2012 - 01:52

"As can be sen by JR Harris and any of his posts, he is not Religious by any means and is just here to attack and not add any value to the discussion, like most people of the OPF AA Haters mentally diseased fear mongers."

Just because you keep saying it doesn't make it so

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Tue, 08/07/2012 - 07:06

JR Harris whines: "As can be seen by alkieanon and his posts above, he is not Spiritual by any means and is just here to deflect and not add any value to the discussion, like most people of the AA Bill Wilson mentally diseased faith."

"At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, ...." Matthew 24:10

becket's picture

becket

Sun, 08/05/2012 - 22:40

Why is your vocabulary so limited, Mr. Harris? Do you get headaches spinning round and round on that hamster wheel of hate?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

DeConstructor's picture

DeConstructor

Sun, 08/05/2012 - 22:01

of having a rational conversation.

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Sun, 08/05/2012 - 22:13

Rational conversation about what? This? "Perhaps the main reason I "hate" AA" A single sentence from a book?

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Mon, 08/06/2012 - 03:38

How many sentences would you like me to find where Bill Wilson describes alcoholics as "sick"? Perhaps you fail to appreciate the true stigma of mental illness and the ways in which the law allows individuals with mental illnesses to be discriminated against and demarginalized? Ever hear of the Florida Marchman Act (or the equivalent in other states), which goes so far as to allow the state to deprive such people of their freedom without convicting or charging them with any crime?

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Mon, 08/06/2012 - 05:36

Aren't they "sick" from drinking and "sick" of drinking?

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Mon, 08/06/2012 - 05:50

Sick in a colloquial sense perhaps, but Wilson was talking about having them declared legally sick, which can have serious repercussions.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Mon, 08/06/2012 - 06:41

Talking about is not the same as actually doing it. It never came to pass. Why dwell on it?

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Mon, 08/06/2012 - 06:58

Really? It has not come to pass? Are you sure about that? Can you explain the Marchman Act, for example, without concluding that the law in some ways treats alcoholics like sick incompetents?

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Mon, 08/06/2012 - 20:00

Pennywise says: "Can you explain the Marchman Act, for example, ...?" Can you? And provide a specific example as it pertains to what you are claiming.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Mon, 08/06/2012 - 20:18

Easy. Ironic's parents, when she was an adult, were able to get her court ordered into treatment. A court normally cannot take away a person's freedom absent criminal charges. However, Ironic was forced against her will into treatment under a mental health code. If her drug use were nothing more than behavior, and not a symptom of a disease, the court would not have been able to do this to her since she was not charged with any crime.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Mon, 08/06/2012 - 20:16

From the Marchman Act:

397.305 Legislative findings, intent, and purpose.—
(1) Substance abuse is a major health problem and leads to such profoundly disturbing consequences as serious impairment, chronic addiction, criminal behavior, vehicular casualties, spiraling health care costs, AIDS, and business losses, and profoundly affects the learning ability of children within our schools and educational systems. Substance abuse impairment is a disease which affects the whole family and the whole society and requires specialized prevention, intervention, and treatment services that support and strengthen the family unit. This chapter is designed to provide for substance abuse services.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Clara's picture

Clara

Mon, 08/06/2012 - 20:27

Is this a hypothetical or did this really happen?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Mon, 08/06/2012 - 20:44

Really happened. Just google the Marchman Act for similar cases.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Tue, 08/07/2012 - 19:22

http://www.dcf.state.fl.us/programs/samh/MentalHealth/laws/MarchmanAct.pdf

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Tue, 08/07/2012 - 19:26

In addition to meeting the criteria for all involuntary admissions, a person for whom a petition for involuntary placement is filed must have met additional conditions including:
 
1. Having been placed under protective custody within the previous 10 days;

2. Having been subject to an emergency admission within the previous 10 days,

3. Having been assessed by a qualified professional within the previous 5 days;

4. Having been subject to a court ordered involuntary assessment and stabilization within the previous 12 days

5. Having been subject to alternative involuntary admission within the previous 12 days.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Tue, 08/07/2012 - 19:34

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/evan-jarschauer/marchman-act-_b_1477986.html

Evan JarschauerMaster Addiction Counselor and President, The Treatment Solution
GET UPDATES FROM EVAN JARSCHAUER
 

If you ever wished for a legal way to somehow lock your loved one up in rehab, the state of Florida just may have the statute to make your wish come true! I recently suggested the concept of "Laying down the law with love," rather than acting out of pure emotion when trying to deal with a loved one battling an addiction. One of the most powerful tools to actually help accomplish that goal just might be the Hal S. Marchman Alcohol and Other Drug Services Act of 1993, or more commonly referred to as the Marchman Act.

The Marchman Act essentially provides for emergency assistance and temporary detention for individuals requiring substance abuse evaluation and treatment in the state of Florida. When properly applied to a well-balanced, long-term plan, the Marchman Act has the potential to help an individual reach a healthy bottom by putting into place a court-ordered framework to help support their recovery.

The Marchman Act is initiated by filing a petition for involuntary assessment in the county court where the impaired individual resides. The petition must be filed in good faith by a person recognized by the court to do so. The petitioner must have reason to believe, and/or direct knowledge that an individual has lost the power of self-control with regard to substance abuse and that there exists the likelihood that the individual has the potential to inflict harm upon themselves or others unless they get help. Furthermore, it must also be demonstrated that the impaired individual is without the capacity to make rational decisions with regard to appreciating the need for treatment.

Once all relevant testimony has been heard by the court, it may enter an order for involuntary assessment to assess and stabilize the impaired individual for a period not to exceed five days. The findings of that assessment are then reviewed with the court which may then enter an order for involuntary treatment for a period not to exceed 60 days. Keeping those proceedings in mind, in the hands of a well-trained professional interventionist, working with the support of likeminded professionals within the legal community, the Marchman Act can be introduced by the friends and family of the impaired individual as a healthy boundary to actually help them break through their own level of resistance.

But before you go ahead and book your brother's flight to Miami with the intention of luring him into some kind of therapeutic beachfront intervention trap, you should definitely consult with a trained professional to explore. The Marchman Act and how it can work in your particular situation. As with any court-related matter, it often boils down to what you can prove, rather than what you know. Even though you may have seen your brother get as high as a kite in college, or fall flat on his face at the family reunion, when he gets to court, he may appear as cool as a cucumber and as clean cut as Clooney.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Tue, 08/07/2012 - 19:43

Pennywise, I started to read that, but when I saw the words "healthy bottom" I nearly hurled.

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Tue, 08/07/2012 - 19:39

See, first they file a petition to have you take a forced assessment. Then they use the results of that assessment a few days later to formally Marchman you. The bar isn't that high at all.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Tue, 08/07/2012 - 19:44

Read a funny story about that on a Yahoo! blog.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Tue, 08/07/2012 - 19:48

Enough games, Alkie. Do you support this legislation or not?

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Tue, 08/07/2012 - 20:05

Pennywise asks: "Do you support this legislation or not?" Why should I or not?

Do you want my opinion? Does it really matter?

Especially when this knucklehead is trying to shut down the discussion and/or conversation:
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Mon, 08/06/2012 - 20:44

Really happened. Just google the Marchman Act for similar cases.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Clara's picture

Clara

Tue, 08/07/2012 - 07:10

I can certainly see issues with it, but I imagine that Ironic's parents love her a great deal and must have thought she was suicidal or something and feared for her. I'll spend some time reading up on it today, but I imagine that her parents felt helpless over a direction their gifted was following, and heroin is a horrible deal. That is my 50 year old mind. My 21 year old mind would have been angry and resentful because I always had the answer then even when it was clear to everyone but me that I didn't.

I think Bill W. might not have wanted us legally declared sick... I think he wanted people to have a different view of drunks than was in vogue in the thirties. Bum, wothless, shiftless, irresponsible... all things that an alcoholic can be. But we can certainly be different people when well, and a change in attitude might keep people from giving up on us.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Mon, 08/06/2012 - 21:15

"Person has right to counsel at every stage of a petition for involuntary assessment or treatment."

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Tue, 08/07/2012 - 03:04

So?

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Tue, 08/07/2012 - 06:52

So It Goes.

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Mon, 08/06/2012 - 21:18

Adult: petition may be filed by:
Spouse,
Guardian,
Any relative,
Private practitioner,
Service provider director/designee, or
Any three adults having personal knowledge of person’s condition.

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Mon, 08/06/2012 - 21:31

"Court may initiate Baker Act if condition is due to mental illness other than or in addition to substance abuse."

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Tue, 08/07/2012 - 20:29

Deleted for errors. Substance abuse is not a mental illness under the Marchman or Baker Acts.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Tue, 08/07/2012 - 19:41

Baker Act - 1971
Marchman Act - 1993

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Tue, 08/07/2012 - 19:45

Your point? The Marchman Act says right at the beginning of the statute that substance abuse is a disease.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Tue, 08/07/2012 - 19:52

No point! Why two separate acts?

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Tue, 08/07/2012 - 19:57

For an explanation of how the AA faithful searching for prospects using 12 Step Spiritual Abuse and how they use the Marchman and Baker Acts. see,"A case study of the destruction of Danny Tate by the Witch Hunt mass hysteria of Bill Wilson followers and Hazelden" - http://orange-papers.org/forum/node/634

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

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