Steppers, answer me this...

Why would Boniface, who dedicated his life to conquering paganism, help Bill Wilson write a book that allows one to pick a god/higher power of one's choosing? Wouldn't Boniface have insisted on the Catholic God, given his history? How do you square this?

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02656a.htm

Boniface returned to Upper Hessia and repaired the losses which occurred during his absence, many having drifted back into paganism; he also administered everywhere the Sacrament of Confirmation. He continued his work in Lower Hessia. To show the heathens how utterly powerless were the gods in whom they placed their confidence, Boniface felled the oak sacred to the thunder-god Thor, at Geismar, near Fritzlar. He had a chapel built out of the wood and dedicated it to the prince of the Apostles. The heathens were astonished that no thunderbolt from the hand of Thor destroyed the offender, and many were converted. The fall of this oak marked the fall of heathenism. Tradition tells us that Boniface now passed on to the River Werra and there erected a Church of St. Vitus, around which sprang up a town which to the present day bears the name of Wannfried. At Eschwege he is said to have destroyed the statue of the idol Stuffo. Thence he went into Thuringia.

The difficulties that confronted him here were very great Christianity had indeed made great progress, but it had become mixed up with heretical tenets and pagan customs. This was due to a great extent to some Celtic missionaries, several of whom had never been ordained, while others had been raised to the priesthood by non-Catholic bishops, though all performed priestly functions. These taught doctrines and made use of ceremonies at variance with the teaching and use of the Roman Church, especially in regard to the celebration of Easter, the conferring of baptism, celibacy, the papal and episcopal authority. Besides, many were wanting in education, some scarcely able to read or write, and equally ready to hold services for the Christians and to offer sacrifices to the idols for the heathens. A neighbouring bishop (probably of Cologne) also gave trouble, by laying claim to a part of the district under Boniface's jurisdiction and treating his authority as an intrusion, thereby indirectly strengthening the party of the heretics. All this caused him great anxiety and suffering as may be seen from his letters to England. He overcame all, thanks to his episcopal dignity and to his own personality, full of courage and zeal in the cause which he defended, and supported by the authority of the pope and of Charles Martel.

Comments

Clara's picture

Now, Avo, tell Conan to stop referring to a past life because he wants to misinterpret someone's post!

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Gunthar2000's picture

Clammy Clara

AA is a religious cult dressed up to look like a treatment for alcoholism.

Gunthar2000

http://www.expaa.org/

Clara's picture

Poor Gunthar. You can't stand it that anyone would get a compliment.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Gunthar2000's picture

Pour me another drink.

AA is a religious cult dressed up to look like a treatment for alcoholism.

Gunthar2000

http://www.expaa.org/

Clara's picture

What some of that Nal with it?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Gunthar2000's picture

I don't drink any more so I don't need naltrexone. It worked wonders in helping me to quit though.

AA is a religious cult dressed up to look like a treatment for alcoholism.

Gunthar2000

http://www.expaa.org/

Clara's picture

I appreciate knowing about it, Gunthar. I have a friend that is just having the toughest time. I read on a site that it works to remove the "high" from drug use, too, so I am hoping to get some in Mexico for him if he is willing to try it.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Gunthar2000's picture

each day, one hour before drinking, for four months.

Drink your way sober.

It worked for me.

AA is a religious cult dressed up to look like a treatment for alcoholism.

Gunthar2000

http://www.expaa.org/

becket's picture

So for four months you were sober?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Clara's picture

Thank you. I am going to ask him to talk with his doctor. It's a matter of finances and I am not sure in insurance pays for this, or if he even has benefits.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

becket's picture

How come you want to skank up your own forum with this lowbrow shit, btnben/conan?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

live_free_or_die's picture

know a skank judge?

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

becket's picture

Don't know, doll - I'm standing on the outside looking in.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

LisaMarie's picture

No ben what is obvious is your parody of yourself. I am using bad grammar on purpose. We all enjoy your reaction. You behave as if you are the subject of a Pavlov's Dog experiment....lol.

Conan's picture

If your next 20 posts are without grammatical errors, I will stop saying it's like a fingerprint for you.

Everyone knows we've got more chance of seeing rocking horse shit than you being able to type in english.

Danny is currently "Rachel" - watch out folks, he's learned how to use a spell checker...lol

LisaMarie's picture

They won't be so don't bother. I like the attention, anyway. From this point forward when you converse with me, could you please use language with a bit more vulgarity. Penny and I like it.

becket's picture

Enough with the fingerprint; enough with co-opting someone else's observation.

By the way, "english" should be capitalized. And actually, if you want to look a little closer, the phrase "we've got" is redundant: you should have written "we have". You're just not good with words, are you? That's all right, btnben/conan; when words fail you can always try to bludgeon with poorly-phrased contempt.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

becket's picture

Take a pass on ingenuity and individualism and lay it all on someone else. What won't you do?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

I'm having a hard time trying to figure out who here is trolling on purpose and who is really so indoctrinated with disinformation that they don't even realize their own ineptitude.

Seriously, to me, anyone that says they've received messages from the dead are either delusional or are playing around with things outside of their understanding and control and should stop before they find out the realities of these thing like the witch of Endor did.

LisaMarie's picture

For millenniums people have spoke to the universe and the universe spoke back. Why is it so outrageous that we are mentioning it here. Mysticism has also been a part of our life, are you rejecting this too.
I am not criticizing you for your opinions and lack of tolerance for other beliefs. Bill is no more crazy then you are.

My views on spirituality are centered around Protestant Christianity. Recognizing Higher Powers is not in itself problematic; it's the idea that any Higher Power can be one's God that is contrary to what I understand about the scriptures. However, I do not feel that I cannot work, learn or interact with people of other beliefs because, in many ways, those beliefs aren't directly relevant to our responsibilities with and to others and empathy in general. The ability to learn about and freely practice varying beliefs is edifying and arguably renders purer adherence than subversive, involuntary indoctrination.

I was paying twenty dollars an hour for outpatient group treatment plus the costs of random drug screens. Learning about how alcohol affects the body was informative and hearing some rather disturbing stories was eye opening and provided a chance to develop more understanding and empathy for others and their unique experiences. I was required to attend two support group meetings weekly in addition to the two, two hour treatment group sessions. As I studied the homework, I came to a chapter on religion and spirituality. The point of this section was to drive home the idea that religion and spirituality are not necessarily the same thing. We weren't given more than two lines to express our thoughts on spirituality with other questions simply skimming over any deeper thoughts on the subject. The entire exercise was to endorse AA and its proclaimed spiritual, rather than religious nature.

The next chapter was "Understanding Powerlessness". The story goes that you're looking to buy a car and see one that looks good. The dealer tells you it runs good but the brakes sometimes just don't work. So, as an alcoholic, driving the car is analogous to drinking and the brakes not braking is analogous to the physiological response in which one succumbs to powerlessness because of their disease. The material explained that loosing control, even one time, can lead to irreversible trauma and tragedy with some seriously sobering media to show the visceral parts of the human condition. The next sentence said...

"If you fail to do something, even one time out of a hundred, you are powerless over it."

I can agree that terrible consequences can come about with just one single poor choice but the above statement taken verbatim from my required recovery group is ambiguous and generally irrational.

While reporting my work in group, I said that I was not comfortable with the aforementioned statement.

I asked "If I fail to get the correct answer on one question out of a hundred on a math test or fail to make it to group one out of a hundred times, I'm powerless over those things?" ...he chuckled and said "Well, you think you know everything" when the group laughed a little and then he changed the subject and called on someone else.

He could have suggested to talk about it after group or given some resource material to study up on rather than infer to the group that I'm merely pretentious and to be dismissed or downplayed. After group, I told him that I really wasn't comfortable attending AA and he did say that I could attend SMART. One thing is that the closest SMART group is very inconvenient for me to travel to given my current circumstances and after understanding parts of Rational Recovery, the need to bond in group with others that are recovering is not absolutely required to get healthy. I felt coerced and that they were some bit disingenuous as I was paying partly to study and practice 12 step ideology

becket's picture

Instructors like to instruct. They are by-the-book proponents of whatever it is they're trying to pass on to their "students". This kind of instructor does not suffer questions gladly. It takes real fortitude to stand up in the face of dogma-slinging and say "This does not work for me, and why can we not discuss it right here and now?" The whole fabric of the gathering comes undone because someone's truth has surfaced. I would encourage you to continue to embrace what you know to be true while leaving room for new influences. By this I do not mean the 12 steps, although they are not excluded. Your influences can come from nature, politics, yoga, art, food. Through these you learn the pollens you are allergic to, the political clowns and why they make you shudder, how not to move too fast, the emotional impact of saturated colors vs. pastels, what happens when you add too much cumin to a dish. Negatives inform. Negatives shape who we are. They may be tedious and uncomfortable, but they are not without purpose.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

live_free_or_die's picture

and now the instructor?

How IS your fridge today judge feckit?

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

Orange's picture

Why would Boniface, who dedicated his life to conquering paganism, help Bill Wilson write a book that allows one to pick a god/higher power of one's choosing? Wouldn't Boniface have insisted on the Catholic God, given his history? How do you square this?

That's a great question. And I think the answer is obvious. Boniface would have regarded any church other than the Christian Church in Rome to be very bad, even pagan or Satanic. He would not have approved of Bill Wilson's heretical "anything as your Higher Power".

The proper name for Bill's theology is "idolatry", as in "any Golden Calf as your Higher Power." If I remember the Charlton Heston movie correctly, the Earth opened up and swallowed those Calf-worshippers, and they presumably went straight to Hell.

live_free_or_die's picture

So bill w and dr bob, and any other true-believer AA'er that is deader than a doornail, are hanging with the calf-worshippers. That would be in hell. Got it!

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

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