Step 3 of AA

Submitted by Soberman on Sun, 07/29/2012 - 04:00

Sober-man: "If ‘God as we understand him’ really is all loving, then how can He allow any member of AA to get drunk?"

The question is almost an embarrassment for Big Bills today.

On the one hand, the Big Book teaches that ‘God as we understand him’ is love, and yet, on the other hand, it warns that those who reject ‘God as we understand him’ will get drunk, and it contains frequent warnings about the danger of non- belief.

But aren't these two somehow inconsistent with each other?

Well, a lot of people seem to think that they are inconsistent, but in fact this isn't at all obvious.

After all, there is no explicit contradiction between them.

Explicit: fully and clearly expressed or demonstrated; leaving nothing merely implied; unequivocal: explicit instructions; an explicit act of violence; explicit ...
The statement "God is all loving" and "Most Big Bills do get drunk" are not explicitly contradictory.

So if these two are inconsistent, there must be some hidden assumptions which would serve to bring out the contradiction and make them explicit.

But what are these assumptions?

Detractor: A person who belittles the worth of another person or cause.

It seems to me that the detractor of AA is making two crucial assumptions.

First of all, he assumes that if ‘God as we understand him’ is all powerful, then ‘God as we understand him’ can create AA in which everyone who freely chooses to turn his will and his life over to ‘God as we understand him’ will stay sober.

And second, he assumes that if ‘God as we understand him’ is all loving, then ‘God as we understand him’ prefers AA in which everyone who freely chooses to give his will and his life to ‘God as we understand him’ will stay sober.

Since God is thus both willing and able to create AA in which everyone is freely sober, it follows that no one should get drunk.

What do you think?

Sober-man
Don’t drink, do as you please?
To be continued……

Comments

Soberman

Sun, 07/29/2012 - 09:16

Soberman: “First”, Big Bill of AA assumes that if ‘God as we understand him’ is all powerful, then ‘God as we understand him’ can create AA in which everyone who freely chooses to turn his will and his life over to ‘God as we understand him’ will stay sober.

“Second”, he assumes that if ‘God as we understand him’ is all loving, then ‘God as we understand him’ prefers AA in which everyone who freely chooses to give his will and his life to ‘God as we understand him’ will stay sober.

Now notice that both of these assumptions have to be necessarily true, in order to prove that God and AA are logically inconsistent with each other.

So as long as there's even a possibility that one of these assumptions is false, it's possible that God is all-loving and yet most AA members will get drunk.

Thus, the opponent of AA has to shoulder a very heavy burden of proof, indeed.

He has to prove that both of these assumptions are necessarily true.

Sober-man
Don’t drink, do as you please?
To be continued…..

Soberman

Sun, 07/29/2012 - 05:05

Sober-man:
But, in fact, it seems to me that neither of these assumptions is necessarily true.
In order to explain this, let me lay out for you the AA teaching on God and Abstinence from alcohol .

According to the Big Book God's nature is both perfect justice and perfect love.

Both of these are equally powerful, and neither can be compromised.

Let's look first at God's justice.
I was talking to a Big Bill once about his need of total abstinence from alcohol, and he said to me, "I trust in God's justice.

I don't think that there could be anyone who would be more fair or just than God.
I have complete confidence in His decision."
Now is this true?
Is God just?
Is He is totally fair?
He has no axe to grind?
He is not out to get you?
He is the most competent, intelligent, impartial, and fairest judge you will ever have?
No one will get a bum decision at God's judgment seat?
Every human being can be guaranteed absolute justice?

What do you think?
Sober-man
Don’t drink, do as you please
To be continued….

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NoAAUK

Sun, 07/29/2012 - 07:05

Maybe God doesn't judge ANYBODY. Maybe it is necessary to experince evil to attain REAL spiritual growth.

Maybe the point of life is to learn though pain and wrong choices and yes even doing harm in order to achieve true spiritual growth (and by spiritual growth, I don't mean stepper cult BS speak)

Mabe God is totally fair and just and it is us who have the axe to grind and we come to this level of consiousness to grind the axe so we can move on to the higher levels?

How can this life be any form of test? We would ALL have to lead exactly the same lives for it to be a fair test which God could then judge. Judgement day.......eternal damnation....... just more scaremongering to control people........same as jails institutions or death.

Eternal Damnation, a bit overkill for 70 odd years spent on this earth, even for lying thieving acid popping, sexual predatory conmen like Bill Wilson don't you think

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

Soberman

Sun, 07/29/2012 - 07:37

Try again.
Soberman

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NoAAUK

Mon, 07/30/2012 - 02:33

I think your judgemental God is the bullshit mate......same as steppism
Jesus survived the crucifixion and is buried in India.

Christianity contains part of the truth…..it is not THEE ABSOLUTE truth

There is no eternal damnation, just reincarnation and limitless chances at redemption. God neither abandons nor judges any soul, there is good in all, and all will eventually progress to the highest levels of consciousness or existence or whatever you want to call it

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

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LisaMarie

Sun, 07/29/2012 - 12:23

NoAAUK, thanks. I enjoyed what you wrote here.

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NoAAUK

Mon, 07/30/2012 - 03:30

Its basic beliefs of the spiritualist church and wicca.

Rather than viewing this life as a test with eternal bliss or damnation as the reward, by a vengeful, judgemental God, the spiritualist church and wiccans see this life as a learning process, a journey in spiritual growth (again I don't mean in the stepper cult BS sense) that everyone is on, whether they believe it or not.

There are more than just two levels of consciousness/existence in this belief, the next level being the Summerland (what Christians would call Heaven). The Summerland is a place where souls dwell between incarnations back to earth to learn and achieve more spiritual growth. Eventually when sufficient spiritual growth has been achieved the soul ceases incarnations to earth and moves on to higher levels towards God and spiritual fulfilment.

There are dark places on the Summerland level where those who have lived evil lives dwell, but they don't have to remain there permanent, when they want to they can try again.

There are higher souls who have reached a higher level of spiritual growth, called spirit guides, who help the lesser developed plan their next reincarnation back to earth.

A lot of people will call this view of existence, which necessitates reincarnation, as BS but is it really any more BS than a vengeful judgement God and eternal damnation? And there are plenty of examples of people under deep hypnosis who have recalled previous lives.

There was a book I read but I can't remember the name or author and it started to make sense to me and answered a lot of questions that I struggled with like "why does God create a soul which He knows will eventually suffer eternal torment?" "Why does God condemn souls to eternal torment?" "Isn't eternal torment a bit over kill, how can anyone possibly commit enough evil in life to warrant eternal torment?" "Why does God allow all the bad things to happen?"

Spiritualism/wicca answers these questions. I believe the truth lies along these lines...but who knows, anyway I don't fear what comes after death too much now

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

Soberman

Sun, 07/29/2012 - 05:30

Sober-man:
But this is precisely the problem!
For God's justice exposes the Big Bills inadequacy.

The Big Book says that those who do not follow our path has failed to live up to God's moral law and so finds him-self drunk before God.

The word for this moral failure is sin.

The Big Book says that "all AA members are under the power of sin.

None is righteous; no, not one; all have turned aside, together they have gone wrong.
Most drink and fall short of sobriety.

We thus find ourselves under the law of divine justice: You reap what you sow.

The Big Book says, "Do not be deceived; God cannot be mocked.

A “Big Bill” reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will get drunk.

The one who sows to please God's Spirit, from the Spirit will reap sobriety.

"The Big Bill that drinks shall get drunk, and, "The wages of drunkness is death".
You reap what you sow.
You reap what you sow.
This is justice in its purest form.
Sober-man
Don’t drink, do as you please?
To be continued…..

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NoAAUK

Sun, 07/29/2012 - 07:21

"On the one hand, the Big Book teaches that ‘God as we understand him’ is love, and yet, on the other hand, it warns that those who reject ‘God as we understand him’ will get drunk, and it contains frequent warnings about the danger of non- belief."

God as we understand him in this context is god as AA try to project onto its bemused and vulnerable victims, so they can be scared into lifetimes membership of satans stepper cult and hence the stepper old timers can continue with their predatory activities, whether control, self-importance, sexual or any combination these self-obsessed self-serving deviant methods of gratification.

There is NO God as we understand him, there is just God and God does not thrive on fear sexual predation, suicide etc.

Steppism is satans cult, and the stepper oldtimers are satans servants.....like Bill W and the deviant doctor were

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

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becket

Sun, 07/29/2012 - 14:22

"There is NO God as we understand him, there is just God and God does not thrive on fear sexual predation, suicide etc."

What if someone believes in a God that does not thrive on fear, sexual predation, suicide, etc. Wouldn't that be "God as [he] understands him"?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

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NoAAUK

Mon, 07/30/2012 - 02:46

"What if someone believes in a God that does not thrive on fear, sexual predation, suicide, etc. Wouldn't that be "God as [he] understands him"?

No that would just be God.

On the other hand if somebody believes in a God that works miracles for people provided they go to stepper meetings for life and spout cult BS, and at the same time, ignores starving children in the developed world, people being tortured as I type and all the other evils that non steppers suffer throughout the world........well that would just be believing in a predatory cults version of god, a version designed to scare or otherwise ensnare the vulnerable into life membership.

Believing in a "door nob" god is just..........nonsense

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

Soberman

Sun, 07/29/2012 - 12:52

The only problem is, nobody measures up!

So, if we rely on the justice of “God as we understand Him”, we're sunk!
There is nobody in AA who deserves to get sober.

Nobody is good enough!
So if we depend on God's justice, we've had it.
It's all over.
Therefore, we must cast ourselves on the mercy of “God as we understand Him”.

Even though we are guilty and deserve to die, “God as we understand Him”still loves us.

Sometimes people get the idea that “God as we understand Him”is a sort of cosmic tyrant up there, out to get us.
But this isn't the AA understanding of God.

Listen to what “God as we understand Him” says.

"'Have I any pleasure in the failure of the AA member?' says the “God as we understand Him”, 'And not rather that he should stay sober?
For I have no pleasure in the failure of anyone,' says the “God as we understand Him”.

'So turn your will and your life over to “God as we understand Him” and live sober!

He says to them, "As I live, says the “God as we understand Him”, "I have no pleasure in the death of the AA member, but that the AA member turn from his drunken way and live.

Turn back.
Turn back from your evil ways.
For why do you wish to die?

Sober-man
Don’t drink, do as you please?
To be continued…..

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NoAAUK

Mon, 07/30/2012 - 03:48

"'Have I any pleasure in the failure of the AA member?' says the “God as we understand Him”, 'And not rather that he should stay sober?
For I have no pleasure in the failure of anyone,' says the “God as we understand Him”.

'So turn your will and your life over to “God as we understand Him” and live sober!

Thank you, you have answered the eternal questions about why God allows wars and third world starving etc. and evil in general...........He's much to busy concerning Himself with his chosen steppers, working miracles for them stopping them drinking (but not making them be able to drink safely) removing character defects and what not.

It’s not that he doesn’t give a fuck about non/ex steppers…………He just hasn't got the time for anyone else the stepper spiritual elite

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

flannigan

Sun, 07/29/2012 - 10:37

I have relayed your questions to St. Boniface and am awaiting his reply. Will report back to you upon receiving the answers.

Soberman

Sun, 07/29/2012 - 12:55

Keep up the good work flannigan.
Soberman

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NoAAUK

Mon, 07/30/2012 - 03:51

I can't get St. Boniface......all I can get is Napoleon Bonaparte

Mind you I'm only using the TV like on “The Poltergeist”

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

Soberman

Sun, 07/29/2012 - 12:59

Sober-man:
Here ‘God as we understand Him’ literally pleads with the alcoholic to stay sober and be saved. And in the Big Book it says, "God as we understand Him” is a “power greater than our self”, not willing that any alcoholic should get drunk but that all should reach sobriety".

He desires all alcoholics to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth".

Thus ‘God as we understand Him’ finds himself in a kind of dilemma.
On the one hand are His justice and holiness, which demand punishment for the alcoholic, rightly deserved?

On the other hand are God's love and mercy, which demand reconciliation and forgiveness.

Both are essential to His nature; neither can be compromised.

What is God to do in this dilemma?

Sober-man
Don’t drink, do as you please?
To be continued…..

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Pennywise

Sun, 07/29/2012 - 13:00

God doesn't exist so we don't need to worry about it.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

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becket

Sun, 07/29/2012 - 14:28

"God doesn't exist so we don't need to worry about it."

Would this be a critical difference between the atheist and the agnostic? - that the agnostic "worries about it", maybe even just a little - when the true atheist does not?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

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live_free_or_die

Sun, 07/29/2012 - 14:39

it would not be a critical difference.

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

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NoAAUK

Mon, 07/30/2012 - 04:00

What is God to do in this dilemma?

How about say "stuff these steppers, I’ve got more important things to do running creation.......why do these self-obsessed, control freaks and sexual predators think my sole purpose in existence is to to do their bidding.......and they even call me a 'door knob'"

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

flannigan

Sun, 07/29/2012 - 13:04

I would punt. Then again....

Soberman

Sun, 07/29/2012 - 13:27

Sober-man:

The answer is Jesus Christ. He is the fulfillment of God's justice and love.
They meet at the cross: the love and the wrath of God.
At the cross we see God's love for the alcoholic and His wrath upon drunkeness.

On the one hand we see God's love.

Jesus got drunk in our place. He changed water to wine, got drunk and died in our place.
He voluntarily took upon himself the death penalty of alcoholism that we deserve.

The Big Book says, "In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the atoning sacrifice for our alcoholism.

But at the cross we also see God's wrath, as His just judgment is poured out upon Jesus was our substitute.

He tasted death for every alcoholic and bore the punishment for every slip.

None of us can imagine what he endured.
There alone “God as we understand Him” opens his mind, his heart, his personal consciousness to every alcoholic who comes to AA.

The whole inflow of the horror of alcoholism, the endless history of it, from the first drink on to the eternity of hell, the boundless ocean of desolation, he allows wave upon wave to overwhelm his soul.
J
esus endured hell for us, so that none of us would have to endure it ourselves.

That's why Jesus is the key, and life's supreme question becomes,
"What will you do with Christ?"

In order to receive forgiveness, we need to place our trust in Christ as our Savior.
The "God as we understand Him.

But if we reject Christ, then we reject God's mercy and fall back on His justice.
And you know where you stand there.

If we reject Jesus' offer of forgiveness, then there is simply is no one else to pay the penalty for your alcoholism--except yourself.

Thus, in a sense, God doesn't send anybody to hell.
His desire is that everyone be saved, and He pleads with people to come to Him.

But if we reject Christ's sacrifice for our alcoholism, then God has no choice but to give us what we deserve.

God will not send us to hell--but we will send ourselves.

Our contuiued sobriety thus lies in our own hands.

It is a matter of our free choice where we shall spend eternity.
Sober-man
Don’t drink, do as you please?
The end.

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NoAAUK

Mon, 07/30/2012 - 04:06

"But if we reject Christ's sacrifice for our alcoholism, then God has no choice but to give us what we deserve."

You steppers really are "TOTALLY SELF OBSESSED"

Where does it say anything about Jesus in that Cult manual the BB

Bill Wilson was wrong when he said Alcoholics were examples of Self Will run riot........he should have said Steppers are an example of Self Will run riot, and he would have been right.......for once only

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

flannigan

Sun, 07/29/2012 - 13:49

You have a strange take on Christianity. BTW- where in the world did you ever get the idea that Christ got drunk? I have never heard that before.

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Pennywise

Sun, 07/29/2012 - 13:51

Jesus was supposed to have wine for blood, so his BAC would have put him over the legal limit in any jurisdiction. Of course that is not to say he was drunk per se, as he might have had an extremely high tolerance for alcohol.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Soberman

Sun, 07/29/2012 - 14:29

Go on line and find the Craig, Bradley debate.
I used the begining of Craig's debate to fit my post.

I changed it to fit my topic.
Bradley riped Craig's ass.
Sober-man
http://www.ovrlnd.com/Universalism/Craig_Bradley_Debate.html

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becket

Sun, 07/29/2012 - 14:19

"Jesus was supposed to have wine for blood, so his BAC would have put him over the legal limit in any jurisdiction. Of course that is not to say he was drunk per se, as he might have had an extremely high tolerance for alcohol."

Where on earth did you get these ridiculous ideas? This is how shit gets started here. This is a time toilet. Please say you're joking.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Soberman

Sun, 07/29/2012 - 14:28

I think in AA Jesus is the "God as we understand Him" .
Sober-man
http://www.ovrlnd.com/Universalism/Craig_Bradley_Debate.html

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becket

Sun, 07/29/2012 - 14:26

Are you discounting all religions other than Christianity, or are you just recognizing the majority?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Soberman

Mon, 07/30/2012 - 04:43

There is no question about it.
When a "Big Bill" speaks of a "God as we understand Him" or a "Power greater than ourself" he/she means one thing and one thing only.
He means "Jesus Christ".
That is a basic principle; the basic ingredient of Alcoholic Anonymous.
Sober-man