Does the alcoholic have "Free Will" with respect to drinking alcohol

Submitted by Soberman on Sat, 07/21/2012 - 08:53

Origin of the Will
We are conscious of only a tiny fraction of the information that our brain is processing each moment. Although we continually notice changes in our experiences, in thought, mood, perception, behavior, we are utterly unaware of the thought process that produces them. In fact we can be very poor witnesses to experiences itself. By glancing at your face or the tone of your voice, others are often more aware of your state of mind and motivations than you are.
The alcoholic will generally start each day with a thought of a cup of coffee, a bottle of beer or a drink of whiskey.
Today it was a bottle of beer.
Why not coffee?
The alcoholic is in no position to know?
He wanted beer more than he wanted coffee today and he was free to have what he wanted.
Did the alcoholic consciously choose beer over coffee?
No!
The choice was made for the alcoholic by events in his brain that he as the conscious witness of his thoughts and actions could not in fact influence.
Could the alcoholic have changed his mind and switched from beer to coffee before the drinker in him could get his bearings?
Yes but this impulse would also have been the product of unconscious causes.
Why did it not arise this morning?
Why might it arise in the future?
The alcoholic cannot know.
The intention to do one thing and not another does not originate in consciousness. Rather it appears in consciousness, as does any thought or impulse that might oppose it.
Subjectively: based on somebody's opinions or feelings rather than on facts or evidence
Is the alcoholic the conscious organ of his actions?
One fact seems indisputable.
Some moment before the alcoholic is aware of what he will do next, a time in which he subjectively appears to have complete freedom to behave however he please, his brain has already determined what he will do.
The alcoholic then become conscious of this decision and believes that he is in the process of making it.
He is not.
The alcoholic is no more in control of the thoughts in his brain than he is in control of what causes his heart to beat.
There will always be some delay between the thought of the first drink and the conscious thought of the next drink, and even if there were not, the alcoholic cannot take the next drink until the thought of the next drink arises.
What will his next mental state be?
The alcoholic does not know.
It just happens.
Where is the freedom in that?
The alcoholic wanted beer or whiskey more than he wanted coffee and he was free to have whatever he wanted.
Did he consciously choose the beer over the coffee?
No!
The choice was made for him by events in his brain that he as the conscious witness of his thoughts and actions could not in fact influence.
Could he have changed his mind and switched to coffee before the drinker in him could get his bearings?
Yes, but the influence that caused the change would also be the influence of unconscious causes.
Why did it not arise this morning?
Why might it arise in the future?
We cannot know.
The intention to do one thing and not another does not originate in consciousness. Rather it appears in consciousness, as any other thought or impulse that might oppose it.
Are we the conscious influence of our action?
No!

Sober-man
Don’t drink, do as you please
Information taken from the book “The Free Will” written by Sam Harris
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCofmZlC72g

Comments

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Sat, 07/21/2012 - 09:03

.

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

SandyB's picture

SandyB

Sat, 07/21/2012 - 09:38

Anyone who says they have no power over the first drink is a liar, or has been lied to

Soberman

Mon, 07/23/2012 - 06:12

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCofmZlC72g
Soberman

SandyB's picture

SandyB

Sat, 07/21/2012 - 09:40

That means you can do something about it

Soberman

Sun, 07/22/2012 - 07:47

Soberman

flannigan

Sat, 07/21/2012 - 11:36

Welcome back, Soberman. We missed you. But who witnesses the witness. And who witnesses the witness who is witnessing. And...... on and on and on.

Soberman

Sun, 07/22/2012 - 10:26

Soberman

Soberman

Sun, 07/22/2012 - 07:50

You do not have free will with respect to thought.
Soberman.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sat, 07/21/2012 - 17:55

Soberman said: "The alcoholic is no more in control of the thoughts in his brain than he is in control of what causes his heart to beat."

No, this is not true. Yes, sometimes thoughts pop into our heads. If I tell you not to think about an orange, the first thing you will think about is an orange. But the analysis is more complicated than stopping at first thoughts. Once the idea of an orange pops into your head, there are many places you can go with that thought. You could go to the store, buy an orange, and then eat it. Or you could claim that you are allergic to oranges and go to meetings to prattle on about it. Or you could work a crossword puzzle, wrench on a car, or engage in some other distracting activity that requires you to focus your thoughts on things other than oranges. Indeed, if we had no control over our thoughts, then learning would be pretty much impossible (since learning requires us to control our thoughts).

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sat, 07/21/2012 - 17:58

I suppose you could argue that our thoughts are nothing more than a collection of chemical reactions that occur within our corporeal brains. As such, we are limited by our neurological/physiological/biological makeup, and thus have no true free will. I am sympathetic to such an argument. I guess it depends on how you define "free will."

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Soberman

Sun, 07/22/2012 - 11:18

Soberman

Soberman

Sun, 07/22/2012 - 07:52

Soberman

Soberman

Sun, 07/22/2012 - 11:14

Soberman

Soberman

Sun, 07/22/2012 - 15:59

Soberman

Gunthar2000's picture

Gunthar2000

Sun, 07/22/2012 - 16:03

What evidence do you have to support your claim?

AA is a religious cult dressed up to look like a treatment for alcoholism.

Gunthar2000

http://www.expaa.org/

Soberman

Sun, 07/22/2012 - 07:54

The thought or the doing of the thought?
Soberman

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sun, 07/22/2012 - 08:04

Usually the thought comes before the action. Of course, some actions are involuntary such as your heart beating. In those cases, the action can precede conscious awareness.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Soberman

Sun, 07/22/2012 - 16:01

I have no control over thinking.
Soberman

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sun, 07/22/2012 - 11:22

What do you mean by that? Are you saying that you lack the ability to read a novel, which is an example of an activety that requires thought control?

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Soberman

Sun, 07/22/2012 - 16:04

Soberman

steve cochrane's picture

steve cochrane

Sun, 07/22/2012 - 22:08

:)

Linton's picture

Linton

Sun, 07/22/2012 - 15:31

Every time I see a black cat I have the thought that I'd like to kick it or run it over. This has only recently started happening. Now clearly I wouldn't ever do such a thing, but the thought does amuse me.

Linton

becket's picture

becket

Sun, 07/22/2012 - 16:10

Turn it into a song. Make $8.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Linton's picture

Linton

Sun, 07/22/2012 - 16:52

I think I might try that. Thanks for the inspiration.

Linton

Soberman

Sun, 07/22/2012 - 16:06

Soberman

Linton's picture

Linton

Sun, 07/22/2012 - 16:11

I'm off to buy a scratching post and cat treats.

Linton

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Sun, 07/22/2012 - 16:25

Soberman, perhaps you have no conscious awareness of your thought processes, but I do. I've always been very, very aware of my thoughts and can change them when necessary. I can even change my beliefs when I find good reason to. I really can't imagine living any other way. If that's your experience, I kinda feel sorry for you. Perhaps you should seek some kind of non-12 step help. You seem completely powerless, and that's just not any way to live, IMO.

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

Soberman

Sun, 07/22/2012 - 17:54

I am saying that you don't have free will with regard to a thought.
Is the following statement true?
I think therefore I am.

Soberman

steve cochrane's picture

steve cochrane

Sun, 07/22/2012 - 21:30

only what YOU declare you are.

becket's picture

becket

Sun, 07/22/2012 - 21:33

I declare I am fantastically beloved on the Orange Papers Forum!

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

steve cochrane's picture

steve cochrane

Sun, 07/22/2012 - 22:00

:)

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Mon, 07/23/2012 - 05:21

It is all about becket. LOL!

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

becket's picture

becket

Mon, 07/23/2012 - 11:28

Take it up with steve cochrane, floppy.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Soberman

Mon, 07/23/2012 - 03:07

Soberman

billybudd

Sun, 07/22/2012 - 17:30

"The intention to do one thing and not another does not originate in consciousness. Rather it appears in consciousness, as any other thought or impulse that might oppose it.
Are we the conscious influence of our action?"

"Don't you realize that if you have no concepts and no anxiety, you'll see the Buddha standing before you." -- some dude

but then, you'll also be dead and beyond realization and seeing and standing and more besides; so there.

Yes, if you define consciousness as the agent of action. However, if consciousness is merely a byproduct of (advanced, to some degree) life, then fuck art let's dance.

Soberman

Sun, 07/22/2012 - 17:56

Soberman

becket's picture

becket

Sun, 07/22/2012 - 17:57

Please go back and read billybudd's post again very slowly.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

steve cochrane's picture

steve cochrane

Sun, 07/22/2012 - 21:34

Lets dance. Lets give off some byproducts!!

Soberman

Sun, 07/22/2012 - 18:27

Before you read on please go to youtube and listen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCofmZlC72g
I will say no more about Free Will until you listen to the above.
Soberman

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Mon, 07/23/2012 - 03:12

A lot of what you say here, Soberman, has merit. As applied to the Steps, the Steps can't work for me because I have no free will to believe in God. My neurological make up simply does not produce the chemical reactions necessary to produce such a belief. Even if I wanted to, I'm constitutionally incapable of it. This is one of the reasons why I don't think it is intelligence that separates atheists from believers. It's largely chemical, with the caveat that intelligence is largely chemical, too.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

steve cochrane's picture

steve cochrane

Sun, 07/22/2012 - 21:26

He is full of shit! There is nothing to be learned. He has you chasing your tail, like many these days.About God ,about you ,about me. His passion is admirable, but it is just that. It does not make it real for me. At this point in your life Soberman you told me that you have gone to over ten thousand AA meetings!!! Have you shed your skin?? New beginnings ya? Our culture is too young (western) to even come close to even making a feeble attempt to get better. We are wrapped up in everything external. Our wants ,our needs, our secret needs. They revolve around (US). Bigger and better is always the best way to approach anything. Right? What will truly make us happy?? Answer?? Anyone?? I respect your age and experience Soberman, but your posts are DARK. Without joy or ultimate relief behind them. Don't drink, do as you please?? Is that a command,?affirmation? What the fuck is that? What if I want to drink? 1 beer, two beers, ten beers?? And then do as I please. Cannot I do both? Please school me. Trust me. If I made it this far I can and am willing to listen. "Free Will" is something you made up to mean something. OK well maybe you didn't make it up but you might as well had. All these terms,sayings,slogans and so forth are meant to do what? Please explain. Alcoholic. What does that mean? What is this term meant to accomplish in our language? Is it correct? What exactly is an alcoholic? A baseball player. firefighter,cashier,CEO, Mother, Father, asshole,sonofabitch, cunt ,dick pinhead,dork,. Hero,heroine' What do they do?Is is it a profession? Can they be more than one? I think always that they(we) are more than one. First and foremost and nothing more, they are. . we are. . . human beings. All of the terms,labels if you will are just that. These labels wield great power!! Hold on to your current guru. But I assure you that no modern day atheist would prefer a faithless society. They are not stupid. Faith in 'something' is by far the strongest glue that binds us ,and will continue to evolve. Serve people . . . feed people. Do not look up to the sky for answers. Do not question others beliefs in relation to your own. Keep it to yourself. Just do your best job at being a good and decent person. Thats it!! No secrets!! This is the achilles heel of AA. It focus' on the something that cannot be attained through the twelve steps. The process is too negative. So anyway Soberman, make up a new phrase for FREE WILL. Can you do this? I leave it to you. By the time it gets back around. It will mean the same thing as it did before. So this coming weekend I am making a KICKASS feed of paella. Fuck all of this heavy thought. Lets eat!! Chicken,shrimp,dungeness crab, maine lobsta ,mussels ,clams,oysters,sausages de portugese.bell pepper, sweet vidalia onion,lots and lots of garlic. Put it all in my paella pan. Saute' for a few. put the best quality rice in,cover in broth. Let it cook about 15 mins. Give everyody a plate, a bib,a utensil of some sort. Have everyone gather around the table for the unveiling. Lift off the cover!! Step Away!! Peace!! Oh, and I forgot the toasted french bread to dip into that rich rich broth. UMMMM HUMM!! Peace Love You All. xcept Becket :) Oh, there will be a cold beers and homemade rootbeers too!!

becket's picture

becket

Sun, 07/22/2012 - 21:32

Crack does not become you, steve.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

steve cochrane's picture

steve cochrane

Sun, 07/22/2012 - 21:45

is lobster and crab shells baby. Oh, and by the way Becket If it means anything ( and I know that it doesn't) but I have great love for you. Had a local music fest today. Guess who whas there? Walter Trout!! CannedHeat?? Kickin some big Ass!! Love that three piece shit!!

Soberman

Mon, 07/23/2012 - 02:58

Soberman

Soberman

Mon, 07/23/2012 - 03:02

Soberman

Soberman

Mon, 07/23/2012 - 06:32

By Soberman

Now gather around I have something to say
I’m going to tell you a game alcoholic’s play
You get you a group maybe five or ten
Someone has a problem and you begin

Now the problem is something old Joe brings up
Everyone says ‘why don’t you’ and Joe says ‘yes but’
The group is quiet not a word is said
Everyone suspects that he’s been had
Old Joe setting there with a smile on his face
When Soberman jumps up and puts him in his place

Now this goes on for an hour and a half
If you could watch it you would laugh
At people who use their time this way
And what do they call it, they call it AA

AA, AA the ultimate claim
To cure the rich the poor and the lame
But if you listen to old Soberman he will tell you what he thinks
All you got to do is just don’t Drink
Soberman
Don’t Drink and Do as You Please?

My Big Plan Made: Now
I will never drink/drug again; I will never change my mind.

I will never attend another AA meeting; I will never change my mind.

Before you make this decision:
Think!

You will never get to walk into another Alamo club again.

becket's picture

becket

Sun, 07/22/2012 - 18:13

Hate with homework. Unbelievable.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Soberman

Mon, 07/23/2012 - 03:00

Soberman

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Mon, 07/23/2012 - 00:38

"Does the alcoholic have "Free Will" with respect to drinking alcohol".

I say that it isn't free, it's only will and it comes at a price.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Mon, 07/23/2012 - 03:17

To be sure, Soberman, as I understand it, is not saying that only alcoholics lack free will over the choice to drink. His argument is that no person has true free will over anything because our choices are predetermined by our past experiences and neurophysiology. It's hard to argue against that.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

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