Note: If you are one of the individuals who find fault with these honest attempts to help others, don’t bother to comment. This is a private website, and while we welcome useful comments, we are under no obligation to publish yours. If the editor believes your remarks detrimental to the overall purpose of this site, he will ignore them, along with your protestations. He has a thick skin.
As compared with Orange, who allows the opposition to post pretty much whatever unless it crosses the line into personal attacks. I take this as a concession of victory. He knows we'd eat him alive in any discussion on the actual merits of the 12 Steps, so he has to silence us in order to save face and avoid the real tough questions. In short, he wants a monologue; not a dialogue like we have here.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
paying for his 'service' would be interested in his lack of conversation, and his failure to qualify his claims, and apparently the claims of Sunrise Detox.
I would also wonder if any accredation agencies would be interested in the fact he either has nothing to back his claims or simply refuses to.
One of the problems that the AA faith has is that they don't realize that there is a global initiative to expose the cult of Alcoholics Anonymous for what it is. True, they use the AA loophole of if you don't like it "go to a different meeting", but unfortunately what Bill doesn't realize is that the exposing of the ineffective dogma and preachings of Bill Wilson is on every continent. I do have the feeling that he started his rant on "AA Bashers" because of incidents happening in Lebanon Township New Jersey right next to Sunrise Detox in Sterling, but that is only an observation (classic narcissistic tactic). Plus what Bill doesn't realize is that he is not dealing with people in need of Detox or the "treatment" of the 12 Steps and he can't push us around. Like they old saying goes,"If you can't find something good to say, don't say anything."
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
True, but it has "consequences" when Bill is doing a 4th Step on what he calls "AA Bashers." Much like members of the AA faith going online, quoting AA principals harassing and stalking people going through a divorce in Philadelphia.............. it isn't forgotten.
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
You apparently never read any of those posts, JR, or you would know that the divorce happened in 2007. If you believe that commenting to an article constitutes stalking, then perhaps you need to read up on that, too. Don't worry about forgetting it, JR, just understand it. Anyone can post an opinion.
and for that matter medical forums sympathetic to our cause.
Bill from Sunrise Detox could be the man to actually kill the recovery industry. His peers should also be advised of the cowardice he is demonstrating when the credibility of his industry is questioned.
I don't understand Bill's response from Sunrise Detox. His article was named "12 Step Program Bashers (and others) Take Note" but he claims he was not targeting AA Bashers? Sounds like an alkieanon AA loophole to me.....
Bill says:
July 19, 2012 at 9:41 pm
Dear Sue,
Thanks for reading and commenting. I do wish you had read a little bit more carefully, however.
The title reads, “AA Bashers (and others) Take Note”. The remark that you quoted refers specifically to the preceding paragraphs:
I’ve been doing some research into non-12 Step recovery strategies for an article I’m writing. In the process, I’ve run across several sites that seem to be devoted to trashing one or another program.
It seems to me that this is not a good thing. Without getting into the pros and cons of specific recovery paths, I believe it is reasonable to assume that they are working for someone, or else they would not survive. Therefore, with the possible exception of true cults, they are most likely doing some good for some people.
This is how I see it: given the variety of possible ways that recovery, the recovery process, and even what constitutes recovery can be perceived, what right does anyone have to trash a program and reduce the faith of the people it is helping?
What arrogance! How immoral!
Careful reading will reveal that the reference is to all bashers of all programs. The paragraphs that follow are equally neutral, except that I use an example from my own recovery (which happened to be in a 12-step program) as to how I could have been discouraged. The final paragraph but one specifically states the general premise that no one has the right to criticize anyone else’s program. (In some of the 12-step rooms, that’s called taking their inventory.)
As I wrote in the follow-up article, no program is right for everyone.
I think that Bill from Sunrise Detox, like alkieanon is attempting a AA loophole defense and is in denial..... I can not help but wonder if alkieanon has any ties to GenPsych or Sunrise Detox in Lebanon, New Jersey that is having a battle over proposed "rehabs" opening up in that area?
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
I don't understand Bill's response from Sunrise Detox. His article was named "12 Step Program Bashers (and others) Take Note"
This is why, I did not engage with him any further than the reply I posted above. I dont have the time for circular talk. Oh, in case anyone noticed, I spelled accepting wrong in my original reply to Bill. There's been a lot of talk about spelling so; I apologize.
It would appear that Bill is pretty much everything 12 Step and also runs the blog What...Me Sober? http://whatmesober.com/
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
***************************************************
Bill says:
July 13, 2012 at 10:54 am
Hi, Sonny Boy,
There are people in the 12-step groups who are unskillful, just as there are in other walks of life. We need to be careful not to tar them all with the same brush. The opinions of members are just that — opinions. They are not the policy of AA, NA, or any other legitimate group. I know priests who sponsor people, are spiritual mentors, and who specialize in hearing 5th Steps. I’d have to say that anyone who expressed an opinion on an outside issue like that was in violation of the traditions, and I believe that would be the position of most people who understand them.
We need to remember that people in the rooms of any recovery group, 12-step or not, are not there because they are healthy. If their advice seems unskillful, it is best to check with someone who has long-term experience in sobriety (and who has no other axes to grind, as would seem to have been the case with your Salvation Army person).
The point of my article, perhaps expressed less clearly that it should have been, is that we all need to be respectful of other people’s programs, as long as they seem to be causing no harm. And we need to be alert for signs of intolerance on our own part.
Keep on keepin’ on,
Bill
***************************************************
The highlighted sentence is the problem with AA/12 steps. People are being harmed.
And Bill's last comment regarding intolerance on the part of AA/12 steppers?
Comments
Pennywise
Wed, 07/18/2012 - 20:39
Permalink
Note: If you are one of the
Note: If you are one of the individuals who find fault with these honest attempts to help others, don’t bother to comment. This is a private website, and while we welcome useful comments, we are under no obligation to publish yours. If the editor believes your remarks detrimental to the overall purpose of this site, he will ignore them, along with your protestations. He has a thick skin.
As compared with Orange, who allows the opposition to post pretty much whatever unless it crosses the line into personal attacks. I take this as a concession of victory. He knows we'd eat him alive in any discussion on the actual merits of the 12 Steps, so he has to silence us in order to save face and avoid the real tough questions. In short, he wants a monologue; not a dialogue like we have here.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
DeConstructor
Wed, 07/18/2012 - 20:10
Permalink
I wonder if the health insurance carriers
paying for his 'service' would be interested in his lack of conversation, and his failure to qualify his claims, and apparently the claims of Sunrise Detox.
I would also wonder if any accredation agencies would be interested in the fact he either has nothing to back his claims or simply refuses to.
This needs publicity.
avogadno
Wed, 07/18/2012 - 20:37
Permalink
I posted and rather kindly
I posted and rather kindly invited him to discuss the issue. Apparently he'd rather not.
Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/
JR Harris
Thu, 07/19/2012 - 08:23
Permalink
I don't think that Bill from Sunrise Detox knows were global
One of the problems that the AA faith has is that they don't realize that there is a global initiative to expose the cult of Alcoholics Anonymous for what it is. True, they use the AA loophole of if you don't like it "go to a different meeting", but unfortunately what Bill doesn't realize is that the exposing of the ineffective dogma and preachings of Bill Wilson is on every continent. I do have the feeling that he started his rant on "AA Bashers" because of incidents happening in Lebanon Township New Jersey right next to Sunrise Detox in Sterling, but that is only an observation (classic narcissistic tactic). Plus what Bill doesn't realize is that he is not dealing with people in need of Detox or the "treatment" of the 12 Steps and he can't push us around. Like they old saying goes,"If you can't find something good to say, don't say anything."
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
Ink
Wed, 07/18/2012 - 22:10
Permalink
It seems that some people don
It seems that some people don't want cross-talk unless it's outside of their group.
Clara
Thu, 07/19/2012 - 08:33
Permalink
It's his blog. He can run it
It's his blog. He can run it as he sees fit. No one would be able to go to RFR "create mischief" as Ben likes to call it.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
JR Harris
Thu, 07/19/2012 - 08:44
Permalink
True, but it has "consequences" when Bill is doing a 4th Step
True, but it has "consequences" when Bill is doing a 4th Step on what he calls "AA Bashers." Much like members of the AA faith going online, quoting AA principals harassing and stalking people going through a divorce in Philadelphia.............. it isn't forgotten.
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
Clara
Thu, 07/19/2012 - 09:33
Permalink
You apparently never read any
You apparently never read any of those posts, JR, or you would know that the divorce happened in 2007. If you believe that commenting to an article constitutes stalking, then perhaps you need to read up on that, too. Don't worry about forgetting it, JR, just understand it. Anyone can post an opinion.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
DeConstructor
Thu, 07/19/2012 - 10:21
Permalink
We need to forward this to health insurance carriers
and for that matter medical forums sympathetic to our cause.
Bill from Sunrise Detox could be the man to actually kill the recovery industry. His peers should also be advised of the cowardice he is demonstrating when the credibility of his industry is questioned.
Sue
Thu, 07/19/2012 - 21:16
Permalink
12 Step Program Bashers (and others) Take Note.
I posted a comment on this article of Bill's Bog yesterday:
http://sunrisedetox.com/blog/2012/07/10/12-step-programs-recovery-detox/...
He responded today. Thought some of you may be interested in his response.
Sue
Thu, 07/19/2012 - 21:20
Permalink
I did reply to his response
My most recent reply is as follows;
"I fully understood your original article. My comment was in response to your accusation of AA Bashers. I stand by my previous comment."
However, the reply is awaiting moderation.
JR Harris
Thu, 07/19/2012 - 21:45
Permalink
So Bill from Sunrise Detox was not targeting "AA Bashers?"
I don't understand Bill's response from Sunrise Detox. His article was named "12 Step Program Bashers (and others) Take Note" but he claims he was not targeting AA Bashers? Sounds like an alkieanon AA loophole to me.....
Source: http://sunrisedetox.com/blog/2012/07/10/12-step-programs-recovery-detox/...
I think that Bill from Sunrise Detox, like alkieanon is attempting a AA loophole defense and is in denial..... I can not help but wonder if alkieanon has any ties to GenPsych or Sunrise Detox in Lebanon, New Jersey that is having a battle over proposed "rehabs" opening up in that area?
Lebanon Township in New Jersey upset about proposed Drug Rehab Facility opening - July 2012 http://orange-papers.org/forum/node/1993
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
Sue
Thu, 07/19/2012 - 21:43
Permalink
Exactly, JR
I don't understand Bill's response from Sunrise Detox. His article was named "12 Step Program Bashers (and others) Take Note"
This is why, I did not engage with him any further than the reply I posted above. I dont have the time for circular talk. Oh, in case anyone noticed, I spelled accepting wrong in my original reply to Bill. There's been a lot of talk about spelling so; I apologize.
Thanks for printing his response JR.
becket
Thu, 07/19/2012 - 22:29
Permalink
There's also talk about
There's also talk about correct punctuation . . .
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
Sue
Thu, 07/19/2012 - 22:51
Permalink
Eecket, oops I mean Becket
If it's important to you and would make you feel better; go ahead and proof read all my comments. Just wanted you to know that I do the best I can.
DeConstructor
Thu, 07/19/2012 - 22:20
Permalink
Specifically for the google searchers
Sunrise detox Sunrise Rehab Sunrise Fraud Sunrise Success Rates Sunrise Detox Bill Blog DUI Sunrise Detox failure rates Sunrise Detox
JR Harris
Sun, 07/22/2012 - 03:01
Permalink
Bill from Sunrise Detox is quite a blogger and 12 Stepper
It would appear that Bill is pretty much everything 12 Step and also runs the blog What...Me Sober?
http://whatmesober.com/
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
live_free_or_die
Thu, 08/02/2012 - 06:19
Permalink
Bill says:
A response that Bill made to a comment made.
***************************************************
Bill says:
July 13, 2012 at 10:54 am
Hi, Sonny Boy,
There are people in the 12-step groups who are unskillful, just as there are in other walks of life. We need to be careful not to tar them all with the same brush. The opinions of members are just that — opinions. They are not the policy of AA, NA, or any other legitimate group. I know priests who sponsor people, are spiritual mentors, and who specialize in hearing 5th Steps. I’d have to say that anyone who expressed an opinion on an outside issue like that was in violation of the traditions, and I believe that would be the position of most people who understand them.
We need to remember that people in the rooms of any recovery group, 12-step or not, are not there because they are healthy. If their advice seems unskillful, it is best to check with someone who has long-term experience in sobriety (and who has no other axes to grind, as would seem to have been the case with your Salvation Army person).
The point of my article, perhaps expressed less clearly that it should have been, is that we all need to be respectful of other people’s programs, as long as they seem to be causing no harm. And we need to be alert for signs of intolerance on our own part.
Keep on keepin’ on,
Bill
***************************************************
The highlighted sentence is the problem with AA/12 steps. People are being harmed.
And Bill's last comment regarding intolerance on the part of AA/12 steppers?
Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/
alkieanon
Thu, 08/02/2012 - 06:35
Permalink
Opinions
live_free_or_die says: "People are being harmed."
"The opinions of [OPF] members are just that — opinions."
live_free_or_die
Thu, 08/02/2012 - 10:33
Permalink
Opinions
of AA members are exactly that, opinions. But they are opinions of cult members.
Make up your own mind. It is your choice (sometimes). FACT!!!
AA is a program started in 1935, and has not changed since. FACT!!!
Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/