AA Destoyed a marriage because she was a normie

Really sad. Rational folks getting screwed by the cult. I suspect the detox in the hospital went far further than aa did for his sobriety. I hope she finds peace and he comes to realize what he's lost.

Thanks for this link. This writer is really good, and expressed things so succinctly.

Even after her observation that AA threw up a wall, at the end she expresses gratitude that he is recovered, as if it's just a tragic tale of circumstance and as painful as it is, AA was the best thing for him even if it meant their split. Come on, really?

I don't know. I think she hates AA but loves him still. I can understand that. Her reaction to the creepy, Stepford-like alanon women tells me she is exceedingly normal. I just wish he realized aa didn't give him sobriety. He detoxed and came to his senses. unfortunately, he associated and even attributed this to aa, like most do. Circumstantiality doesn't equal causality.

She is reckless with this stunt she pulled. This wasn't a great piece she wrote (though she is a great writer) this was a piece to get back at her husband using AA as the sword.
Her self centered behavior is atrocious, especially being a mother.
Sigh.......

When I went to AA I was told it would be easier to be with someone on the program even though I was in a 10 year relationship.There is pressure to leave your partners,your friends ,your family anyone not involved in the cult.
Most people who drink are considered alcoholics by many in the program even though there is no evidence of lack of control of their drinking. AA is a real relationship killer if your partner is not in AA.

Ahem.

There IS something REALLY FUCKING WRONG, with anyone who "is addicted too" or "is fucked up enough" to get involved with an active addict.

It's really dumb to shit can "ALL OF AA" or to gullibly go along with all of the AA crapfest with shit like "Oh on page 52 of the Big Book it says".

There ARE some really good things about AA and the 12th step fellowships, and there ARE some really good things about some of the people in them - and there is a lot of really fucking toxic shit about AA, it's program, it's brainwashed fundamentalists and manipulative game players...

No fucking doubt.

AA IS ROTTEN TO THE CORE - but this does not mean that it is all rotten.

I don't know this woman from shit - I wasn't there, I don't know them, I never saw anything that went on between them, the people he and she hung out with - and what they did do about themselves and each other.

On prima facie evidence:

Relationships - people do change and if the basis of their relationship changes, i.e. He is an addict, and she is addicted to the addict - and he wants to start cleaning up his act, and he starts hanging out with people who he feels are helping him, and she isn't dealing with her issues, or getting into a support group - then AA or not; of course the relationship is going to change.

So this poor dumb fuck, will have to spend her time pissing and moaning about what AA did to her relationship, and crying poor me into her pillow every night and all the other bullshit - and then go find ANOTHER addict to play "rescue him" games with.

Fuck her and her bullshit.

Frank Zapper was right - "Broken Hearts are for arseholes".

If you can get hold of it - a tape or MP3 of Terry Gorski on "Relationships" is a great set of sign posts on "How to do them".

This is not the only place to get them... but why not go do a course on "Healthy Relationships"?

Or is the rest of your otherwise worthless life going to be spent picking up one tragic loser after another? (Because your such a fucking idiot)

http://www.cenaps.com/The_Cenaps_Corporation/Addictive_Relationships.html

Course Description: In this booklet used in this home study course, Terry Gorski answers vital questions about intimacy and recovery. What is normal in a love relationship? How do we build healthy, intimate relationships into our recovery program? Different levels at which relationships operate are described. The seven characteristics of addictive intimacy are explained and why they feel so good in the short run and hurt so badly in the long run. The booklet also describes the characteristics of healthy intimacy and provides guidelines for relationship building and transforming in recovery.

http://www.amazon.com/Easy-Does-Dating-Guide-Recovery/dp/1592851002

Etc.

https://www.12stepcds.com/catalog/product_info/products_id/463/
On Relationships
with Terry Gorski
from Chicago, IL
[0187-TG-REL]

Terry Gorski shared about Relationships at the 1st Annual ACA Conference in San Diego, California during the weekend of January 16-18, 1987. He is very funny and this talk is informative, entertaining, and captivating.

What IS NORMAL in a relationship? Hear Terry explore the concepts of intimacy and relationships. He shares about unhealthy obsessions with "looking for love" and healthy focuses on being someone capable of loving and feeling loved.

"There are two types of people in this world, the type that divides people in to types and the kind that doesn't." This CD is recommended to anyone having difficulty in a relationship, wants to get into one or just wants more insight to heal more in the one they are in!

This CD is available in your choice of paper sleeve or cardboard mailer (for savings), clear jewel case (for more carrying protection) or beautiful case similar to picture shown. Use dropdown menu below for your selection.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=189572061079959&_fb_noscript=1

Diagnosing Codependence: Practical Guideline --- By Terry Gorski
by Terry Gorski on Saturday, March 12, 2011 at 1:10pm

In recent years, the exact meaning of the term codependence has become confused. This confusion is interfering with efficient diagnosis, appropriate treatment recommendations, and the funding of treatment. It is also creating confusion about the relationship between codependence and chemical dependence, and the relationship between codependence and other mental disorders.

In order to accurately define the term codependence -- and try to clear up the confusion -- let's begin with a brief review of the history of the term and then describe the various meanings it has developed in current usage.

An Historical Perspective

Shortly after the founding of Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) in 1935, it was recognized that adults who lived in committed relationships with alcoholics were damaged by those relationships. This damage was originally referred to as co-alcoholism. In the early 1940's, AA Family Group Meetings, which later grew into Al-Anon, were organized to meet the needs of co-alcoholics (Al-Anon, 1979). In the late 1960's and early 1970's, treatment centers began to develop programs for families of alcoholics. At first, these programs were directed toward enlisting the support of family members in keeping alcoholic patients sober (NIAAA 1981, NIAAA 1987). The focus of these programs gradually shifted to meeting the needs of the co-alcoholics themselves. Co-alcoholism began to emerge as a separate diagnostic category.

Awareness began to grow that children raised by alcoholic parents suffered more severe and long lasting damage than adults who were raised in non-alcoholic homes and later married alcoholics. A distinction was made between co-alcoholics (adults from non-alcoholic families who later married alcoholics) and para-alcoholics (children who were raised by alcoholic parents). The specific damage to children was discussed under the term Children of Alcoholics. Since this damage persisted into adulthood, the term Adult Children of Alcoholics (ACOA) came into widespread use. A Twelve-Step Support Group named Adult Children of Alcoholics was developed in the early 1980's and grew rapidly.

In the late 1970's, the term chemical dependence came into widespread use and the term alcoholism was conceptualized as a subtype of chemical dependence. As a result, the term co-alcoholic was generalized as the term codependent. As the ACOA movement grew, the term codependent was used to describe both adults who were damaged by marrying chemically dependent partners and children who were damaged by chemically dependent parents.

As more clinical observations were made of codependents (adults and children), it became apparent that people who were damaged by living in committed relationships with chemical addicts did not differ significantly from people damaged by living in committed relationships with other dysfunctional people. The term codependent was therefore expanded again to account for all people who have been damaged by living in a relationship with a dysfunctional person, regardless of the cause of the dysfunction. The term Adult Children from Dysfunctional Families (ACDF) began to be utilized.

As efforts were made to describe the personality characteristics of these now broadly-defined codependents, it was discovered that some, but not all, had a personality that was organized around low self-esteem, obsessive involvement with others in order to raise self-esteem, and extreme caretaking behavior that resulted in lack of self-care. This observation caused many people to begin using the term codependence to describe that particular personality style.

Current Usage

As a result of this steady broadening of the concept, the current usage of the term codependence involves four distinctly different definitions:

1. Codependence is a cluster of symptoms or maladaptive behavior changes that occur in adults who live in a committed relationship with a chemically dependent person. (Al-Anon.)

2. Codependence is a cluster of symptoms or maladaptive behavior changes that occur in children who are raised by chemically dependent parents. (ACOA.)

3. Condependence is a cluster of symptoms or maladaptive behavior changes associated with living in a committed relationship with either a chemically dependent person or a chronically dysfunctional person either as children or adults. (ACDF.)

4. Codependence is a specific pattern of personality traits that are characterized by loss of self-identity, over-involvement with others as a means of establishing self-identity, and excessive caretaking behavior that results in a lack of self care. (Everyone else.)

The Simple Solution

The easiest solution to the problem of uniform language would be to acknowledge all four general definitions and draft specific language to accurately describe their meanings. This solution, however, would not end the confusion over what is meant by the term codependence. Rather, it would simply force people using that term to specify the exact meaning that they mean to convey.

A Better Solution

A better solution would be to create a special nomenclature that readily differentiates between these four different meanings. The following nomenclature could be used.

Codependent: A general term describing a cluster of symptoms or maladaptive behavior changes associated with living in a committed relationship with either a chemically dependent person or a chronically dysfunctional person either as children or adults.

This term could be further specified using the following terms:

Codependent Adjustment Reaction: A subtype of codependency characterized by the spontaneous remission of codependent symptoms when the person is no longer in the committed relationship with the chemically dependent or chronically dysfunctional person.

Codependent Disorder: A subtype of codependency characterized by the continuation of codependent symptoms even when the person is no longer in a committed relationship with the chemically dependent or chronically dysfunctional person.

Child Onset Codependence: A subtype of codependency (either codependent adjustment reaction or codependent disorder) that is caused by being raised in an addictive or dysfunctional family of origin.

Adult Onset Codependency: A subtype of codependency (either codependent adjustment reaction or codependent disorder) that is caused by being involved in a committed relationship as an adult with an addicted or dysfunctional person.

Severity Scale

Codependent symptoms can vary in intensity from mild to severe. The following severity scale can be used:

1. Mild codependent symptoms produce subjective distress, but create no social or occupational impairment.

2. Moderate codependent symptoms produce subjective distress and create minimal social and occupational impairment.

3. Severe codependent symptoms produce subjective distress and create substantial social or occupational impairment.

Caretaking Personality

This term could be used to describe a specific pattern of personality traits that is characterized by loss of self-identity, over-involvement with others as a means of establishing self-identity, and excessive caretaking behavior that results in a lack of self-care. Both codependents and non-codependents can exhibit a caretaking personality. This can be subcategorized as:

Caretaking Personality Traits

A form of the caretaking personality that creates subjective distress but is not sufficient to cause social or occupational impairment.

Caretaking Personality Disorder

A form of caretaking personality that is severe enough to cause social and occupational impairment.

The Relationship of Chemical Dependence and Codependence

Approximately 60% of all chemically dependent patients entering treatment for the first time (Hoffman and Harrison, 1986) and 90% of all chronically relapseprone patients were raised in alcoholic family systems and would be appropriately described as having a multiple diagnosis of chemical dependence and child onset codependence. This high rate of multiple diagnosis has led to confusion about the relationship between codependence and chemical dependence.

If we use the definition of codependence as symptoms resulting from damage caused by living in a committed relationship with a chemically dependent or dysfunctional person, there would be two possible relationships between codependence and chemical dependence. Codependence would cause chemical dependence, or codependence and chemical dependence could be co-existing disorders that have no causative relationship, but do interact dynamically with each other.

There is substantial evidence that codependence (i.e. being raised in a dysfunctional family) does not cause chemical dependence, but can cause serious complications that can interfere with recovery and increase the risk of relapse (Gorski, 1989).

Therefore, the recommended position on the relationship of codependency to chemical dependency is this: Codependency and chemical dependency are independent conditions that often co-exist. Being chemically dependent does not cause a person to develop codependence. Being codependent does not cause a person to develop chemical dependence. Many people suffer from codependence and chemical dependence at the same time. In any event, the presence of codependence can interfere with recovery from chemical dependence. By the same token, the presence of chemical dependence can interfere with recovery from codependence.

Appropriate treatment for a person suffering from chemical dependence and codependence would be: 1) bring the chemical dependence into remission first through a program of abstinence, detoxification, and the development of a recovery program; 2) treat severe codependency issues that increase the risk of relapse to chemical dependence; 3) treat the less severe codependence issues in late recovery after a stable sobriety program has been established.

Hopefully, use of a system such as this will help guide us through the tangled jungle of codependence in the 1990s.

Cite this article

Pick a style below, and copy the text for your bibliography.

APA

Gorski, Terence T.. "Diagnosing codependence: a practical guide to understanding and treatment. (Special Section: Codependence)(includes related article)." Addiction & Recovery. 1992. Retrieved July 03, 2010 from accessmylibrary: http://www.accessmylibrary.com/article-1G1-13360084/diagnosing-codepende...

MLA

Gorski, Terence T.. "Diagnosing codependence: a practical guide to understanding and treatment. (Special Section: Codependence)(includes related article)." Addiction & Recovery. Vendome Group LLC. 1992. AccessMyLibrary. 3 Jul. 2010 .

Chicago

Gorski, Terence T.. "Diagnosing codependence: a practical guide to understanding and treatment. (Special Section: Codependence)(includes related article)." Addiction & Recovery. 1992.accessmylibrary. (July 3, 2010). http://www.accessmylibrary.com/article-1G1-13360084/diagnosing-codepende...

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Gorski Home Studies for CEUs:

http://www.cenaps.com/The_Cenaps_Corporation/Home_Study.html

Gorski’s Book on Understanding the 12-Steps:

http://www.relapse.org/custom/cart/edit.asp?p=78651

Straight Talk About Suicide by Terry Gorski:

http://www.relapse.org/custom/cart/edit.asp?p=129702

As fucked as AA IS, a lot of good stuff has come from it - like ACOA - and all the family therapists etc.,

Some are complete fucks - but SOME are very, very good.

Recovery is not a case of ALL or NOTHING.

I remember this story. It's a good read for those that haven't had a chance to read it yet.

If something (as you have written-AA) is rotten to the core, then that indeed does mean ALL of it is rotten (that is exactly what the expression means).